|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Arannir
Valinor
Sep 15 2013, 11:49pm
Post #51 of 127
(5987 views)
Shortcut
|
... that LotR was quite a break out for an actor coming right from acting school - although there is no debate about the fact that he has never reached the heights of most of the people you list.
My main point remains that I do not really feel like LotR was a perfect trilogy to base a "break-out" on (for people like Wood it might have had the reverse effect of simply being "Frodo" afterwards). There was acclaim, especially for McKellen and some other individual performances depending on which part we are talking about. If Aragorn would have been cast younger - coming back to the original argument whether that was a break-out role or not - I could see that role giving a younger actor quite some buzz (considering that Viggo already got quite a lot even from the younger fanbase) but am not surprised at all that the "larger than life" thing you are looking for did not happen to him or most of the cast members. I still see the main reason for this in the huge ensemble (I am coming back to LOST, as both Terry O'Quinn and Michael Emerson have had their share of praise, but their projects after LOST did not come close to those roles by far), not so much the skills of most of them. And also the fact that both LotR and TH were always movies people talked a lot about the director, about Tolkien, about the visuals, about the enormity of the project etc. It was not really the environment in which one actor concentrates almost all buzz on himself. And opposite to you, I do not miss this at all.
“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien
Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.
|
|
|
ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Sep 16 2013, 12:02am
Post #52 of 127
(5976 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Couldn't agree more to be honest.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I was just thinking about this and then saw your post. I was first thinking RA was a nice fit for Boromir, Faramir and of then of course that naturally leads to Aragorn also.
|
|
|
Semper Fi
Rohan
Sep 16 2013, 12:05am
Post #53 of 127
(5975 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Oh I agree that those movies are not star vehicles for actors
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
but showcase for directors who really are the heart and soul of the whole enormous project. Not every movie needs to be an actor vehicle. I'd say that Marty Freeman very wisely negotiated that he gets time off to film Sherlock while doing The Hobbit. Just in case that transition form TV to movies doesn't work out he has his acclaimed hit show to fall back on.
Bloom did get a break from LOTR but since he couldn't sustain interest I wouldn't say he ever really happened. Flash in a pan kind of fame akin to Hayden Christensen, while franchise lasts.
I agree that Mortensen was already too old but I don't think he would happen in a big way even if he was younger. He just isn't charismatic. Nor Stuart Townsend would happen if he played Aragorn. No charisma, tardiness and low range. It's like never-ending debate whether Dougray Scott would happen if he played Wolverine as originally planned and what of Jackman in that case? No, Scott would not happen and Jackman would because Jackman has X Factor and even if it took longer he would get there. Not to mention multi-talent. Scott is not a star material.
"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards
Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.
|
|
|
Maciliel
Valinor
Sep 16 2013, 12:45am
Post #54 of 127
(5978 views)
Shortcut
|
... must indeed be allotted to the eye of the beholder.
charisma cannot exist in isolation. it is only evidenced by its impact on others.
there are many who would say that mortensen is quite charismatic, i am most sure.
i've seen him on colbert and letterman, and he was effortlessly (and seemingly guilelessly) charming. i have also seen many of his films, diverse roles. i think he does have charisma, while acknowledging that others may or may not see it so.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
|
|
|
Semper Fi
Rohan
Sep 16 2013, 12:56am
Post #55 of 127
(5986 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Some actors have great charisma off screen in interviews but not on it
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Ben Affleck is one of prime examples. he's super charismatic when he gives interviews and a total plank of wood in movies. While I don't think Mortensen is a plank, I do find him rather bland.
And rather than in the eye of a beholder, charisma is measured by ability to open movies. When someone has it, everyone sees it. That's why it's called X Factor - the unexplained something that sets stars (people with ability to draw massive audience on their name) apart from the rest. Term star has been abused, as is A Lister, and attached to anyone who achieved some level of fame (yes, even Snookie) but it really means power to draw audience. Likewise, blockbuster now means a big-budget movie that's also a big hit whereas it really only means big budget movie. And A List is way shorter than people think and it's so closely guarded that when media announces so and so is new A-list they are only guessing.
"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards
Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.
|
|
|
Starling
Half-elven
Sep 16 2013, 1:14am
Post #56 of 127
(5968 views)
Shortcut
|
Your definition of charisma is exactly that - your definition.
|
|
|
Maciliel
Valinor
Sep 16 2013, 1:15am
Post #57 of 127
(5973 views)
Shortcut
|
is not limited to the acting profession, and even among actors it is not limited to being considered able to open a movie. which is rather a nebulous definition at that, considering the trend in recent hollywood years to go for blockbuster and mega-blockbuster. because of this hyper-focus on the blockbuster, movies that make decent profits can be considered disappointing or even failures, just because they weren't this year's star wars. which i find ridiculous. (also, a movie may open on the strength of the fanbase for the storyverse, which may be difficult to separate from the drawing power of an actor.)
i think mortensen has a lot of charisma, but i also think he tends to be an understated performer. i very much appreciate his approach, and can deliver a wide range of characters... from aragorn to tom stahl in "a history of violence," to a russian mob guy in "eastern promises."
trying to be the arbiter of charisma or x factor or star power is an untenable position. charisma is also connected to what people recognize. what is familiar. people may be drawn to films with actor A because actor A is regularly offered / takes roles that are similar. the public knows what it will get. it's self-selecting. and not wholly based on the attractions of a particular actor, but predictability. hollywood is formulaic, and the movie-going public often is also. hollywood would certainly stop making drek (which is also in the eye of the beholder) if people stopped going. just stayed home and read a book, instead.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Sep 16 2013, 1:16am)
|
|
|
Semper Fi
Rohan
Sep 16 2013, 10:39am
Post #58 of 127
(5943 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Charisma and drawing power are not limited to predictability
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Or Hidalgo and Kingdom of Heaven would not have been huge flops that they were. Mortensen played Aragorn cowboy in Hidalgo and Bloom played yet another blacksmith with secret paternity in Kingdom of Heaven. Both movies failed to open and hold in later weeks. And those roles were as predictable as it gets. Doing another Aragorn-like role right after LOTR and another blacksmith-turned-something-else right after POTC.
Granted, there are actors such as Adam Sandler who are bankable (aka can open) only in one genre but other openers are crossovers (Pitt, DiCaprio, Tatum last year opened 3 different movies, Smith) so they are not predictable.
We won't agree on what charisma is because everyone wants their actor to be considered charismatic so any definition is fine. I go by boxoffice numbers - you open big, you have it - you go by personal charm. All good. I just don't think that saying someone lacks charisma as in star (opening) power is an insult. Very few actors have that kind of presence so it really isn't a contest that who has it is better than who doesn't. Arnie is terrifically charismatic but not the best actor around. My point was that I just miss that terrific charisma such as Gibson in Braveheart, Crowe in Gladiator, Hemsworth in Thor or Douglas in Spartacus in Middle Earth movies. Epic charisma in an epic movie. I'm just not getting that. I do understand that Jackson doesn't want one to overpower many which is valid point. It's just my personal preference for actors with mesmerizing presence, especially in this type of a movie.
"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards
Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.
|
|
|
Semper Fi
Rohan
Sep 16 2013, 10:41am
Post #59 of 127
(5942 views)
Shortcut
|
|
True, my definition is boxoffice power
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
since we've been discussing movies. I wasn't defining off screen charisma but only on screen one that draws audience. That one is a rare bird. But off screen one, sure, many actors have it.
"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards
Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.
|
|
|
Maciliel
Valinor
Sep 16 2013, 7:13pm
Post #60 of 127
(5923 views)
Shortcut
|
i agree (and have stated) that charisma is not limited to predictability.... there are factors other than charisma (+many+ other factors) that make a movie bankable, and make a star bankable.
i don't see a parallel at all between the character mortensen played in "hidalgo" and aragorn. other than they both rode horses. if that's the only criterion, then that would make the role of aragorn equivalent to elizabeth taylor in "national velvet." (i tease.) "kingdom of heaven" i did not see, but bloom's role in it does not seem like it would be "another blacksmith." perhaps someone else who has seen both can comment further.
an actor (and leading man) whom i think has loads of charisma onscreen but whom isn't necessarily considered an "opener" is gabriel byrne (also immensely talented; charisma doesn't mean talent). i also interviewed him in person (i used to do press junkets when i did reviews and interviews for a major entertainment network), and he was excessively charming in his actual persona.
if a studio / director gives someone the lead, at some level, they must think that person will be able to open the movie. that the casting will assist in bringing in audiences. for a time, jeff goldblum was attached to megablockbuster after megablockbuster, but was he actually the one shouldering "opening duties," or was it the dinosaurs ("jurassic park") and aliens ("independence day")? there are many ingredients involved in a good opening, but (again) hollywood keeps upping the dollar benchmark for blockbuster. it's no longer enough to make money, or even make a lot of money. it has to stagger the imagination. which seems to translate into bigger operating budgets, and at those budgets, the studios are unwilling to take risks on lesser-known actors, so we keep seeing the same ones (e.g., cruise) over and over again. so, is cruise really so bankable, or is it partly that studios are risk-averse, only attach cruise to the blockbusters, so audiences just keep seeing him? the equation is extremely complex.
if you take a moment to go back and read my earlier post, you will see that i don't limit my definition of charisma to mean personal charm. there is an on-screen charisma as well. i just don't equate on-screen charisma to bankability. also (again from my post) i don't really care (i'm saying that respectfully) if you or someone else does not agree with me that mortensen has on-screen charisma. the point i was making was that charisma is in the eye of the beholder, and that on-screen charisma is not the same thing as bankability or the ability to open a movie.
interestingly, the films you mention ("braveheart," "gladiator," "thor," "spartacus") were not ensemble pieces, but had clear leads. some discussion was made upthread about ensemble films vs. lead role showcases. fwiw, i think many actors in lotr have a mesmerizing presence (bernard hill, ian mckellan, elijah wood, andy serkis).
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
|
|
|
Semper Fi
Rohan
Sep 16 2013, 7:41pm
Post #61 of 127
(5930 views)
Shortcut
|
But, IMO, Wood is a poster boy for charisma black hole. even many ciritcs pointed out that other actros stole the movie from him.
Now Andy's an interesting case and if have to pick a true LOTR breakouts among actors, he would be it. He didn't brust right out of the gate (only to fizzle quickly like Bloom) but is now headlining his own franchise (Apes) which is more than other LOTR actors have under their belts at the moment. It's also unexpected (I bet that 10 years ago bets were made for other actors to do better than Serkis) and therefore totally awesome. It;s one of my favorite movie stardom twists, you know when some actors aree xpected to happen for this and that reason but unlikliest of them (cause he was hidden under digital make-up) leaves them in the dust. He trully found a niche for himself where he's an undisputed king and it's finally paying off.
As for Hidalgo, it didn't help that Disney advertised it with "the King has returned" (not the actor's fault) and that the actor was promoting this family movie with a gross-out anecdote about roasting a roadkill (totally his fault).
"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards
Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.
|
|
|
glor
Rohan
Sep 18 2013, 12:22pm
Post #63 of 127
(5900 views)
Shortcut
|
Sometimes film industry producers/studios/directors, say that X actor cast for the role wasnot suitable, was a casting mistake on their part, for legal reasons/matters of politeness when that isn't exactly the truth, the actor cast was difficult to work with.
Unfortunately, whilst I am not party to the full truth like yourself, there are comment to that effect surounding the actor in question from several projects he has worked on.
|
|
|
glor
Rohan
Sep 18 2013, 12:50pm
Post #65 of 127
(5878 views)
Shortcut
|
would have made a fantastic Aragorn ( he can look rugged), he has the voice and the ability for commanding performances.
I agree with you on the Viggo Aragorn thing, it wasn't the script, it was Viggo's inability to be kingly enough, to radiate the regalness, the, OK I am going to say it, the majesty  necessary to convey Aragorn's right to the throne of Gondor in ROTK. Viggo was a great ranger, he was Strider but like you say, he just wasn't Aragorn.
Dominic West would have also been a good choice if they had stayed with the younger Townsend idea for casting.
The upside is that as they didn't play Aragorn, they did play the leads in two of the most significant drama shows of the 2000s; the genius of casting Ecclestone in the reboot of that BBC classic Dr Who, that made the reboot such a success. It was at the time the British equivalent of announcing a Star Trek TV reboot with Sean Penn as Captain Kirk, intriguing and raised the first series of the 'new' Dr Who to a new level. Dominic west of course played the lead in The Wire generally regarded as one of the great masterpieces of TV, and revolutionary. If
|
|
|
Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 18 2013, 4:26pm
Post #67 of 127
(5859 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Good to know. I think the photo, whatever its origin, at least
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
is a good representation of his look as Aragorn.
|
|
|
Semper Fi
Rohan
Sep 18 2013, 4:56pm
Post #68 of 127
(5852 views)
Shortcut
|
|
prominent nose is one of reasons why Cate doesn't work as Galadriel for me
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
An Elf should have a perfect nose. Cate is a beautiful woman but an Elf woman, the second most beautiful woman in the world, must not have a polarizing distracting feature.
"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards
Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.
|
|
|
Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 18 2013, 5:29pm
Post #69 of 127
(5849 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Very few humans have a "perfect nose" but I do see your
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
point. However, for me, it was not distracting enough to ruin her portrayal. Her overall presence was well matched for the role.
I can't recall of JRRT ever described elven noses.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 18 2013, 5:30pm)
|
|
|
Semper Fi
Rohan
Sep 18 2013, 5:35pm
Post #70 of 127
(5840 views)
Shortcut
|
|
he didn't describe ears either
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
and yet they ended up with unflattering garden gnome ones. 
"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards
Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.
|
|
|
Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 18 2013, 6:05pm
Post #71 of 127
(5843 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Well, maybe he did suggest elven ears
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
"it was stated in early linguistic writings that "the Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Human."[3][4] Answering to a question on Hobbit ears, Tolkien wrote that these were "only slightly pointed and 'elvish'".[5] Some fans take this to mean that Elvish ears were pointed, while others argue that it is an ambiguous statement.[1][2]"
http://tolkiengateway.net/...lven_Characteristics
↑ J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Lost Road and Other Writings, "Part Three: The Etymologies", p. 368 (roots LAS1 and LAS2)
↑ J.R.R. Tolkien, "Addenda and Corrigenda to the Etymologies — Part One" (edited by Carl F. Hostetter and Patrick H. Wynne), in Vinyar Tengwar, Number 45, November 2003, p. 26
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 18 2013, 6:05pm)
|
|
|
Maciliel
Valinor
Sep 18 2013, 6:16pm
Post #72 of 127
(5839 views)
Shortcut
|
what a "perfect" nose is. to my knowledge, there is no mathematical or other standard. millimeters, proportions, ratios to other parts of the face. there is no definition of "perfect," so i honestly have no idea what you mean.
you certainly are the sole arbiter of what you (personally) think of as "perfect," and also what you think is appropriate for the appearance of an elf, a dwarf, or a human.
i'm not trying to be troublesome here, but this notion of "perfect" is really a personal aesthetic, not an objective one.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
|
|
|
frodolives
Lorien
Sep 18 2013, 6:27pm
Post #73 of 127
(5861 views)
Shortcut
|
Liam Neeson
http://images.dailyexpress.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/285x214/104687_1.jpg
Ciaran Hinds (my top choice)
http://www.criticcinema.com/graphics/tiff/hinds1.jpg
Nathaniel Parker
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/26700000/Nathaniel-Parker-nathaniel-parker-26797801-156-208.jpg
|
|
|
Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 18 2013, 6:32pm
Post #74 of 127
(5838 views)
Shortcut
|
He would be a more mature in age Aragorn. Not quite as handsome.
Something about Nathaniel Parker says Bard.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 18 2013, 6:33pm)
|
|
|
Brethil
Half-elven
Sep 18 2013, 6:35pm
Post #75 of 127
(5817 views)
Shortcut
|
I find Cate's presence to fit quite well with my internal picture of Galadriel (also subjective). As lovely but not 'delicate'
Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!
|
|
|
|
|
