Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Hobbit: the Desolation of Smaug Manual 2013

chris10112
Bree

Aug 29 2013, 9:02am

Post #1 of 108 (3951 views)
Shortcut
The Hobbit: the Desolation of Smaug Manual 2013 Can't Post

Out today apparently, with a "sneak peek" of Smaug.

Anyone got it?


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Aug 29 2013, 9:53am

Post #2 of 108 (1995 views)
Shortcut
Your source? [In reply to] Can't Post

The tie-in books are available for pre-order, but won't be published until the first week in November. What is your source for this?

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 29 2013, 9:58am

Post #3 of 108 (2061 views)
Shortcut
It is definitely out [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.amazon.co.uk/...lation/dp/0007519966

http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/...l-2014/9780007519965


(This post was edited by Shagrat on Aug 29 2013, 9:59am)


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Aug 29 2013, 10:50am

Post #4 of 108 (1934 views)
Shortcut
He means the "Annual"... [In reply to] Can't Post

The AUJ edition was released at the end of August, too, and gave us our first glimpse of Thranduil (& Radagast, tho' he was unveiled on a calendar first) well before the movie came out. Smile


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 29 2013, 1:55pm

Post #5 of 108 (1847 views)
Shortcut
Had a quick look in a couple of book shops. [In reply to] Can't Post

And couldn't find it. Didn't have time to stand in queue and ask. But it if has been released today, it will only be a matter of time before pictures make it online.

Smile



Elessar
Valinor


Aug 29 2013, 2:03pm

Post #6 of 108 (1807 views)
Shortcut
Nice! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm in the US but I did find a couple sellers in the UK that had it ready to go. Not sure how long it will actually take to get here but I ordered it to put with my Annual from last year.



DuBekar
Rivendell


Aug 29 2013, 2:44pm

Post #7 of 108 (1740 views)
Shortcut
Just ordered my copy [In reply to] Can't Post

Here in Sweden, i will have it in about 2-3 days they said :) If pictures haven't reach us until then i will gladly share ;)

" Why, O people of Noldor! Fëanor cried. Why should we longer serve the jealous Valar, who cannot keep us nor even their own realm secure from their enemy? And though he be now their foe, are not they and he of one kin? Vengence calls me hence, but even were it otherwise I would not dwell longer in the same land with the kin of my father's slayer and of the thief of treasure. Yet i am not the only valiant in this valiant people. And have ye not all lost your King? And what else have ye not lost, cooped here in a narrow land between the mountains and the sea? Here once was light, that the Valar begrudged to middle-earth, but now dark levels all. Shall we mourn here deedless forever, a shadow-folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the thankless sea? Or shall we return to our home? In cuiviènen sweet ran the waters under uncloaded stars, and wide lands lay about, where a free people might walk. There they lie still and await us who in out folly forsook them. Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!"


Nevrast
Bree

Aug 29 2013, 8:41pm

Post #8 of 108 (1677 views)
Shortcut
Characters in order of importance [In reply to] Can't Post

I think these are always hilarious because the sizes of various characters never match up well at all with who is actually important. According to this it would be The Hobbit starring:

Bard
Azog
Bilbo
Tauriel
Fili
Thorin
Legolas
Radagast
Gandalf

featuring random orc in the corner.


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Aug 29 2013, 9:20pm

Post #9 of 108 (1580 views)
Shortcut
Reminds me of the movie posters. [In reply to] Can't Post

It always bugged me how much emphasis was placed on Arwen in all three movie posters...


Kim
Valinor


Aug 29 2013, 9:26pm

Post #10 of 108 (1546 views)
Shortcut
Hi Daniel, [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you (or anyone else reading this) explain the difference between the various books coming out for DOS? I only bought the 2 Weta Chronicles books for AUJ, and I’m going to get that for DOS, but I’m not sure about the other options. Are they kind of different flavors of the same behind the scenes photos and stories, with perhaps different areas of emphasis depending on the authors? I've read the various descriptions on Amazon, but it's still not clear to me.

So far, I've come across:
  • Weta Chronicles
  • Visual Companion
  • Official Movie Guide
  • Annual
  • Other (various activity and sticker books and the movie storybook)


Trying to decide what else I might get, and if I should go back and get some of the others for AUJ, but not sure if I can afford them all!

Thanks. Smile


dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 29 2013, 10:16pm

Post #11 of 108 (1538 views)
Shortcut
Well, I'm not Daniel, but..... [In reply to] Can't Post

How's this:

The Weta chronicles you know...

The Official Movie Guides are, for me, the next best thing. Brian Sibley writes them - as he did for the LotR films - and he knows a lot about Tolkien independently of the films, so he stands somewhere between book fans and film fans because he's both. His books are rather like behind the scenes documentaries - chapters on the background to the films, the start of the film-making process, costume and design, make-up, weapons - all that sort of thing, all very well illustrated with film stills and shots of work in progress.

The Visual Companions focus on the film story. They tell you about characters and places and bits about what happens and are well-illustrated with film stills, but there's no background information. They're written by Jude Fisher who is (or was) an editor at Harper Collins, the UK publisher of Tolkien's books.

The Movie storybooks are similar, I think, but smaller and aimed at a much younger age group

The Annual (which has another name in the US) is again aimed at kids and has bits about the characters and the story but also puzzles and activities - stuff like 'spot the difference', where the picture is a film still. Or a maze, just like any other maze except that you'll be finding Bilbo's way through the forest - things like that. I think mostly people buy them because they come out months ahead of the other books, so they provide a first glimpse. Either that or because they have kids! Wink

Hope it helps!


Kim
Valinor


Aug 29 2013, 10:29pm

Post #12 of 108 (1472 views)
Shortcut
Thanks dormouse! [In reply to] Can't Post

That helps. Smile I was thinking of getting the Official Movie Guide and the Visual Companion, but wasn't sure how similar they might be. Probably won't get the others if they're more aimed for kids (although the stickers would be fun Tongue). However, I'm in the non-spoiler camp as far as these books go, so don't actually want to get them before I see the movie.


Skaan
Lorien


Aug 30 2013, 12:00pm

Post #13 of 108 (1383 views)
Shortcut
Can i ask though [In reply to] Can't Post

Where did you get the news that there will be a Smaug sneak peek in it? Not that i don't believe you, i'm just curious because i haven't found anything so far that mentions it.


Bexlin
Rivendell


Aug 30 2013, 12:07pm

Post #14 of 108 (1518 views)
Shortcut
I have a copy the only new visial is Beorn on bear form [In reply to] Can't Post

 



(This post was edited by Bexlin on Aug 30 2013, 12:11pm)


Elessar
Valinor


Aug 30 2013, 12:10pm

Post #15 of 108 (1392 views)
Shortcut
Amazon [In reply to] Can't Post

My order from Amazon has shipped. I'll be curious to see how quickly it arrives from the UK.



Bexlin
Rivendell


Aug 30 2013, 12:19pm

Post #16 of 108 (1502 views)
Shortcut
Link to Beorn pic [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.flickr.com/...8434@N02/9626490833/


(This post was edited by Altaira on Aug 30 2013, 2:21pm)


Bexlin
Rivendell


Aug 30 2013, 12:23pm

Post #17 of 108 (1461 views)
Shortcut
Beorns Cabin [In reply to] Can't Post

[urlhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/86158434@N02/9626512391/]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/86158434@N02/9626512391/


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 30 2013, 12:37pm

Post #18 of 108 (1379 views)
Shortcut
Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to say, that CGI looks great. He looks like a real bear (to me, anyway). Wink

And your other scans confirm that the Company are chased into his house, rather than arriving as they do in the book. It will be interesting to see how it turns out.



Elessar
Valinor


Aug 30 2013, 1:01pm

Post #19 of 108 (1349 views)
Shortcut
Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Beorn does look awesome in that little shot. As Daniel said above he looks like a real bear to me. Can't wait to get the book and see everything in it. Very much looking forward to the movie. Cool



(This post was edited by Elessar on Aug 30 2013, 1:01pm)


DuBekar
Rivendell


Aug 30 2013, 1:31pm

Post #20 of 108 (1346 views)
Shortcut
wow [In reply to] Can't Post

The pic of Beorn is amazing IMO, and love the picture of the exterior of his "land" :) Wasn't there anymore pictures that are new or anything? would love too see them all :)

" Why, O people of Noldor! Fëanor cried. Why should we longer serve the jealous Valar, who cannot keep us nor even their own realm secure from their enemy? And though he be now their foe, are not they and he of one kin? Vengence calls me hence, but even were it otherwise I would not dwell longer in the same land with the kin of my father's slayer and of the thief of treasure. Yet i am not the only valiant in this valiant people. And have ye not all lost your King? And what else have ye not lost, cooped here in a narrow land between the mountains and the sea? Here once was light, that the Valar begrudged to middle-earth, but now dark levels all. Shall we mourn here deedless forever, a shadow-folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the thankless sea? Or shall we return to our home? In cuiviènen sweet ran the waters under uncloaded stars, and wide lands lay about, where a free people might walk. There they lie still and await us who in out folly forsook them. Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!"


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Aug 30 2013, 2:26pm

Post #21 of 108 (1324 views)
Shortcut
I made the link clickable [In reply to] Can't Post

For those folks on cell-phones. Hope you don't mind. Smile

Awesome picture! The blue eyes are a subtle touch that makes you realize this isn't your ordinary bear. Thanks for posting a copy on the boards.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





narflet
Bree


Aug 30 2013, 3:22pm

Post #22 of 108 (2734 views)
Shortcut
Plot spoilers from the annual [In reply to] Can't Post

I got this in the post today. Here are all the plot confirmation/reveals from the annual (much more than I was expecting!)

- The company is chased to Beorn's house by Beorn himself (Beorn doesn't like dwarves, but when he discovers they're running from Azog he helps them instead).
- 'Beorn is the last shape-shifter in the whole of Middle-earth. Most of his kind were killed by Azog, so when Beorn finds out that The Company are fleeing from Azog, he agrees to help them.'
- Beorn tells Gandalf that the rumours of 'a great evil' in Dol Guldur are true, which is what makes Gandalf decide to go there himself and leave Thorin & co to face Mirkwood alone.
- Thranduil has ordered that his elves are not to leave the forest, and they're not to have anything to do with any other race (especially the dwarves).
- When Thorin & co are captured, Thranduil guesses they're going to the Lonely Mountain and will release the dwarves to go on their way, for a promise of a cut of the gold. But Thorin refuses, so he imprisons them.
- Legolas isn't as set in his ways as his Dad.
- Tauriel is at odds with Thranduil and doesn't understand, or agree with, his segregation. She's 'very headstrong' and 'doesn't always follow orders'.
- Tauriel is 'quite unlike other Elves' and it's hinted that she quite likes the dwarves (or is, at least, intrigued by them).
- The wood elves give chase through the forest when the dwarves escape in barrels, but don't follow them out of the forest.
- Except for Tauriel, who does follow then to Lake-town (defying Thranduil) and Legolas who decides to follow Tauriel (because he's 'very protective of her').
- Bilbo may get separated at some point in the escape.
- Bard discovers the dwarves as they wash up in their barrels (because he's a 'great hunter and often spends his time in the hills around the river leading from Mirkwood into the Long Lake'), and eventually decides to trust them and take them to Lake-town.
- Bard has three children: Bain, Sigrid and Tilda (which explains the 'injured girl' in the piece above and is possibly part of his motivation for helping the dwarves?)
- Gandalf may do some of the following in Dol Guldur: unlock a gate; see things that aren't really there/things appear other than they are; cast a spell making it look like there's more than one of him; cast a protection spell; have to work out where to walk as there are trick stones that lead to traps.
- Lastly, there's a suggestion that Smaug is also looking for the Arkenstone.

There are a few other new pictures, but lots are from AUJ or ones we've seen before. The new ones are just posed character images of Thranduil, Tauriel, Legolas and Bard. I can scan some in in anyone wants me to.


narflet
Bree


Aug 30 2013, 3:27pm

Post #23 of 108 (1256 views)
Shortcut
From here [In reply to] Can't Post

HarperCollins posted this yesterday on Facebook;


Quote
Published in advance of the second movie in Peter Jackson’s trilogy, the official Hobbit Annual is out TODAY in the UK and other international territories (in Australia on the 1st Sept). Packed with stills, characters and exclusive information from the movie. Get it today to get a sneak peek of Smaug!

However, there are new photos of Smaug in it at all so it's a bit misleading. Just stills from AUJ.


narflet
Bree


Aug 30 2013, 3:27pm

Post #24 of 108 (1248 views)
Shortcut
More like Beorn's chicken coop?! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


narflet
Bree


Aug 30 2013, 3:29pm

Post #25 of 108 (1330 views)
Shortcut
A few, just posed character photos [In reply to] Can't Post

Some character shots of Thranduil, Tauriel, Legolas and Bard. There's also another 'poster' style composite image like the one used on the cover. Can scan a few images if you'd like...


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 30 2013, 3:34pm

Post #26 of 108 (1211 views)
Shortcut
Thank you narflet. [In reply to] Can't Post

I would love to see the pictures, if you can.

It all sounds rather promising, to me. Despite some deviations, it looks like they've tried incredibly hard to tie all the characters and sub-plots together - it ensures that there are no lose ends. It makes sense for Beorn to confirm the unrest at Dol Guldur, and perhaps he has news from Radagast (or even Galadriel). I hope each of the Dwarves still get an introduction. I think after 12 months, even the audience will need it. They've developed Thranduil's character a lot - segregating his kingdom. The bit about Tauriel following the Dwarves to Laketown is intriguing. And although non-canon, it ties the Elves with Laketown a lot better, especially if they slay a few Orcs while they are there. They've also developed Bard's character a lot more as well, by the sounds of it.

Now, I've always said that the Arkenstone isn't (and shouldn't be potrayed as) a Silmaril. Why would Smaug want it, and why?
Shocked

As for Gandalf, I'm guessing he'll unlock a door and cast a spell. All the others are "too out there". Tongue



Skaan
Lorien


Aug 30 2013, 3:37pm

Post #27 of 108 (1224 views)
Shortcut
Regarding the Arkenstone [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe it was a hint about Bilbo stealing the Arkenstone and Smaug searching for it (the missing cup might have been replaced with the Arkenstone in the movie)


Elessar
Valinor


Aug 30 2013, 3:52pm

Post #28 of 108 (1193 views)
Shortcut
Interesting and thanks for posting [In reply to] Can't Post

 



Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 4:12pm

Post #29 of 108 (1168 views)
Shortcut
Ahhhh more needless tinkering [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Lastly, there's a suggestion that Smaug is also looking for the Arkenstone.

Great post its just very frustrating for those of us who don't care for Jackson's needless alterations to Tolkien's story



Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 4:17pm

Post #30 of 108 (1187 views)
Shortcut
Most of it is pretty much as expected... [In reply to] Can't Post

  
...though it seems Beorn's beef is also with Azog, not Bolg...

but WTH is with this?



Quote



- When Thorin & co are captured, Thranduil guesses they're going to the Lonely Mountain and will release the dwarves to go on their way,
for a promise of a cut of the gold. But Thorin refuses, so he imprisons them.



Yet more defamation of Thranduil's character!!!! Mad


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Aug 30 2013, 4:18pm)


Jim
Rivendell


Aug 30 2013, 4:19pm

Post #31 of 108 (1279 views)
Shortcut
Nah [In reply to] Can't Post

This was tinkering that was required, having Smaug getting angry over Bilbo stealing some gold cup isn't going to work because why is a cup important to Smaug? The Arkenstone has already been establish as something really special, important to the Dwarves. Great tinkering by PJ and co, makes perfect sense for the movie.


Jim
Rivendell


Aug 30 2013, 4:22pm

Post #32 of 108 (1266 views)
Shortcut
Huh? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wasn't the whole motivation for the Elves going to the Lonely Mountain was to get a share of the gold/jewels?


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 4:28pm

Post #33 of 108 (1292 views)
Shortcut
that was when they knew *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

the dragon was dead, and probably the Dwarves as well...

There's a difference between setting out to collect unclaimed/unguarded treasure and actively preventing someone from attempting that unless they agree to cut you in on the profits.

And yes, I know that's effectively what Thranduil did before the Bo5A but by that time he had heard of the plight of the Laktowners and was supporting Bard's claim to compensation/rightful ownership of the gold taken from Dale in the first place.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by entmaiden on Aug 30 2013, 4:40pm)


TheHutt
Gondor


Aug 30 2013, 4:46pm

Post #34 of 108 (1198 views)
Shortcut
He looks like King Kong to me. [In reply to] Can't Post

Except it's a different crooked tooth.

Russian LOTR & Hobbit Site: Henneth-Annun.ru


narflet
Bree


Aug 30 2013, 4:57pm

Post #35 of 108 (2097 views)
Shortcut
Images [In reply to] Can't Post

I chose 6. I realised that the ones of Thranduil (on the page about him) are the same as were used last year. A lot of photos used in the book are actually repeated in differently photoshopped ways. I decided to scan in the one of the barrel escape that's used for the front cover of the Visual Companion because you can see a little bit more in this image - Legolas at the back right and Bombur coming over the waterfall.

I hope no one at WB or HarperCollins minds too much about me posting these! Click through for larger sizes.




(This post was edited by narflet on Aug 30 2013, 4:59pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 30 2013, 5:08pm

Post #36 of 108 (1205 views)
Shortcut
Agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post

The golden cup was a reference to Beowulf, which would have flown over the heads of most movie goers. And indeed over most book firsters.

(Still, it would have been so ultra cool if the cup had been inscribed with the word "Rosebud"....)

******************************************
“That hobbit has a pleasant face,
His private life is a disgrace.
I really could not tell to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.”


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 5:09pm

Post #37 of 108 (1195 views)
Shortcut
The motivation from my understanding [In reply to] Can't Post

was to help the men of Laketown because their homes and town had been destroyed by Smaug. At that point they knew the dragon was dead but did not know the fate of the dwarfs. So Thranduil's made up plot in the films is totally different from the book

Please God let these films be remade sooner than later Angelic

i don't really see anything from the book left really any more other than the dwarfs getting to the mountain and Smaug, The character motivations have all been changed, I don't think jackson read the same book the rest of the world did Crazy


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 5:13pm

Post #38 of 108 (1198 views)
Shortcut
According to Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

(yes I know the symbolism of the cup)but it was the fact that a single piece of treasure was taken, the extent of Smaug's greed. That he flew into such a fit over a golden goblet. It was the principal behind the takiing of the cup. Smaug and dragons in general from my understanding of Tolkien's description knew their treasure horde right down to the last piece. Its not what Bilbo took its that he took anything... Wink

Jackson is missing the whole point IMO Crazy


dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 30 2013, 5:33pm

Post #39 of 108 (1180 views)
Shortcut
In the book Thranduil was already on the way to the mountain.... [In reply to] Can't Post

..for a share of the gold, the dragon being dead and gold being something Thranduil has a weakness for - as Tolkien tells us. He was on his way to the mountain when he heard of the plight of the survivors of Laketown and turned aside to help them, being 'the lord of a good and kindly people'.

So if Thranduil wants a share of the gold, that's book.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 5:38pm

Post #40 of 108 (1166 views)
Shortcut
I don't remember that [In reply to] Can't Post

do you remember where it says he was on his way already and turned aside (page number)? Not doubting you I just don't remember that Wink


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 30 2013, 5:49pm

Post #41 of 108 (1153 views)
Shortcut
Second to last paragraph of chapter 14 [In reply to] Can't Post

So it was that Bard’s messengers found him now marching with many spearmen and bowmen; and crows were gathered thick, above him, for they thought that war was awakening again, such as had not been in those parts for a long age. But the king, when he received the prayers of Bard, had pity, for he was the lord of a good and kindly people; so turning his march, which had at first been direct towards the Mountain, he hastened now down the river to the Long Lake.
-p144 of my book, but probably not yours.

******************************************
“That hobbit has a pleasant face,
His private life is a disgrace.
I really could not tell to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.”


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 5:54pm

Post #42 of 108 (1138 views)
Shortcut
ok thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

But for him to demand a portion of the treasure before Thorin even gets there is completely wrong IMO I can see him venturing out AFTER Smaug is confirmed dead. Since the fate of Thorin and company is unknown and they are likely thought dead leaving that much treasure unclaimed Wink


dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 30 2013, 6:01pm

Post #43 of 108 (1133 views)
Shortcut
The page number would be useless to you unless... [In reply to] Can't Post

... you have the same edition as I do, but it comes near the end of the chapter 'Fire and Water'. Bard sends messages to ask for the King's help and they find the Elf host already on its way to the Mountain. This is what it says (Tolkien, not me):

The Elvenking had received news from his own messengers and from the birds that loved his folk, and already knew much of what had happened. . . .

"That will be the last we shall hear of Thorin Oakenshield, I fear," said the king. "He would have done better to have remained my guest. It is an ill wind, all the same," he added, "that blows no one any good." For he too had not forgotten the legend of the wealth of Thror. So it was that Bard's messengers found him now marching with many spearmen and bowmen, and crows were gathered thick above him, for the thought that war was awakening again, such as had not been in those parts for a long age.
But the king, when he received the prayers of Bard, had pity, for he was the lord of a good and kindly people; so turning his march, which had at first been direct towards the Mountain, he hastened now down the river to the Long Lake."

[Page 266 in the edition I had as a child, p.232 in the newer one.]

Doesn't really matter whether you doubt me or not, does it? Wink



Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 30 2013, 6:12pm

Post #44 of 108 (1122 views)
Shortcut
But he did plan on snagging a portion of the gold from the start. [In reply to] Can't Post

'Very well! We’ll see! No treasure will come back through Mirkwood without my having something to say in the matter.'

Note also:

If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems; and though his hoard was rich, he was ever eager for more, since he had not yet as great a treasure as other elf-lords of ol

******************************************
“That hobbit has a pleasant face,
His private life is a disgrace.
I really could not tell to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.”


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 6:21pm

Post #45 of 108 (1123 views)
Shortcut
I just finished the chapter in question [In reply to] Can't Post

At first he wanted gold, when there was no guardian of the treasure, but when Bard wanted to attack, the King said, "It will take much before I start a war for gold" or something similar. So he comes off here as more altruistic.

Then it is said that he loved silver and white gems, but when Bard gives him the Necklace of Girion, made of emeralds, it is said that he 'loved such gems best'. Finally Bilbo gave him something of silver and pearls, if I remember correctly, so he seems to flip flop in tastes.

Our dear Professor, a bit forgetful perhaps?


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 6:51pm

Post #46 of 108 (1131 views)
Shortcut
well that depends on which addition [In reply to] Can't Post

I choose to look things up in.. I have many editions of the Hobbit everything from an original printing with the original Riddles chapter and beginning (in a glass case and will probably become a family heirloom) to one I bought last year which actually looks like a bible with a leather cover (well fake leather) with gold page edges. i have "a few" to chose from though I mainly read my hardcover edition from 1966 Wink

But the main deciding factor is that is after the dragon Smaug's demise not before. Thranduil wasn't imprisoning the dwarfs because he wanted treasure it was because Thorin nor any of the dwarfs would reveal why they were in his kingdom.

"What have we done, O king?" said Balin, who was the eldest left. "Is it a crime to be lost in the forest, to be hungry and thirsty, to be trapped by spiders? Are the spiders your tame beasts or your pets, if killing them makes you angry?"

Such a question made the king angrier than ever, and he answered; it is a crime to wander in my realm without leave. Do you forget that you were in my kingdom, using roads my people made? Did you not three times pursue and trouble my people in the forest and rouse the spiders with your riot and clamour? After all the disturbance you have made I have a right to know what brings you here, and if you will not tell me now, I will keep you all in prison until you have learned sense and manners!"

Then he ordered the dwarves each to be put in a separate cell and to be given food and drink, but not to be allowed to pass the doors of their little prisons, until one at least of them was willing to tell him all he wanted to know. But he did not tell them that Thorin was also a prisoner with him. It was Bilbo who found that out.
(page 185 in my 66 hardcover)

So the dwarfs imprisonment had absolutely nothing to do with Thranduil and wanting treasure of any kind in any way. Merely over their lack of willingness to tell him the purpose of their journey thru his realm.


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Aug 30 2013, 6:52pm)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Aug 30 2013, 6:58pm

Post #47 of 108 (1110 views)
Shortcut
it's completely consistent with the description in the book [In reply to] Can't Post

Before the Elvenking has any dealings with Thorin or any of the dwarves, he is described in this way: "If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems; and though his hoard was rich, he was ever eager for more, since he had not yet as great a treasure as other elf-lords of old." So the description in the Annual, if accurate, is completely within the spirit of what Tolkien wrote.

For some who so vigorously paints himself as the one and only defender of Tolkien's work, you don't seem to know it all that well.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 7:06pm

Post #48 of 108 (1090 views)
Shortcut
Treasure I was referring to [In reply to] Can't Post

was the treasure in Smaug's lair. Nothing to do with what he liked or had a liking for. I know very well what his weakness for gems was. But we were talking about him and the treasure of Smaug. Which if it were all that important to him he would have sent forces to the mountain and some to help Laketown but he didn't he diverted his whole army to help Laketown putting off going to the mountain. So his greed was obviously not beyond his compassion for other living beings. which is consistent with the book as well.

Thranduil coming off asking for a "cut" of the treasure Before they have even reached the mountain. makes him seem like a character more concerned with treasure than helping other living beings. Besides how does he specifically know that is their goal, if they never told him? Which they refuse to do in the book. Although Thorin thought about it until Bilbo presented himself to Thorin.

So IMO Thranduil's weakness for treasure takes a backseat to his caring about people he knows or friends which I believe the men of laketown were considered. So his weakness for treasure might have been just saying in an exaggerated way he really liked beautiful things esp gems and silver?


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Aug 30 2013, 7:12pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 30 2013, 7:12pm

Post #49 of 108 (1063 views)
Shortcut
Well, if you pick up any of those editions.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... and read the whole chapter 'Barrels out of Bond' you'll find that when Thorin thought he was the only prisoner and was becoming despondent, he was on the point of telling the king everything, 'to ransom himself with promises to the king of a share in the treasure'' - which he decided not to do once Bilbo had found him, and he realised he wasn't alone.

And the other dwarves, once they knew there was a chance of escape, agreed about saying nothing; 'They all thought their shares in the treasure (which they quite regarded as theirs, in spite of their plight and the still unconquered dragon) would suffer seriously if the Wood-elves claimed part of it...'

So to bring in a mention of treasure at that stage is entirely in keeping with the book. Tolkien thought so, anyway.




Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Aug 30 2013, 7:17pm

Post #50 of 108 (1070 views)
Shortcut
No, it is completely consistent with the book [In reply to] Can't Post

Why do you think he imprisons the dwarves in the first place. From the time I first read The Hobbit as wee tot, I knew it was about the treasure.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 30 2013, 7:20pm

Post #51 of 108 (790 views)
Shortcut
Indeed he was! [In reply to] Can't Post

"Christopher was always much concerned with the consistency of the story and on one occasion interrupted: 'Last time, you said Bilbo's front door was blue, and you said Thorin had a golden tassel on his hood, but you've just said that Bilbo's front door was green, and the tassel on Thorin's hood was silver' at which point Ronald exclaimed 'Damn the boy!' and strode across the room to make a note."
-The Tolkien Family Album, Priscilla and John Tolkien, Houghton Mifflin Co., 1992, p. 58.

******************************************
“That hobbit has a pleasant face,
His private life is a disgrace.
I really could not tell to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.”

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Aug 30 2013, 7:22pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 7:22pm

Post #52 of 108 (788 views)
Shortcut
my bad [In reply to] Can't Post

i was reading that part but didn't post it which I was going to do... Still Thorin never did talk he contemplated it but he only contemplated tell Thranduil WHY they were in his realm which would have led to the treasure,he also thought about giving him a cut, but when he heard Bilbo at the door he threw that out the window and never looked back Wink

And the rest of the dwarfs didn't want the elves to get a share of "their" treasure even though technically they hadn't figured out how to get it away from Smaug yet Angelic... That would be the biggest hurdle Wink


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Aug 30 2013, 7:28pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 7:23pm

Post #53 of 108 (773 views)
Shortcut
But smart enough to make notes [In reply to] Can't Post

and keep some constancy Wink


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 7:31pm

Post #54 of 108 (765 views)
Shortcut
I never thought that [In reply to] Can't Post

and it would have been customary in a medieval setting for that to happen, It seems royalty was very territorial back in that era from what I have read. people were know to be executed for trespassing then Wink


malickfan
Gondor


Aug 30 2013, 7:37pm

Post #55 of 108 (767 views)
Shortcut
Thanks for posting that. [In reply to] Can't Post

And thanks for making me a little annoyed.

None of that is particulary surprising, but I'm rather p'd off Azog is still nosing around prominently (mark my words 'the summer vaction listed below can't be far away) and I really don't see any need to give Bard two more kids, typical PJ why have one when you can have three, ramping it up dosen't make things better. I'll take 1933's T-Rex fight over his King Kong's any day.

The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite, December 2012
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon, December 2013
The Radagast: 'Gandalf are we there yet?' December 2014

The Young Aragron Chronicles parts 1,2,3 and 4 coming Christmas 2017,2018,2019 and 2020 IN 4-D Smell-o-vision.

Azog's Summer Vacation Parts 1-12 coming to ABC Fall 2016.

All based on THE APPENDICES.





The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 30 2013, 7:40pm

Post #56 of 108 (742 views)
Shortcut
Yes and no. [In reply to] Can't Post

See all his notes in HoME.

******************************************
“That hobbit has a pleasant face,
His private life is a disgrace.
I really could not tell to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.”


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 7:43pm

Post #57 of 108 (743 views)
Shortcut
I did say SOME consitency [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't say he had it ALL the time, but he gets an A for effort IMO... The man created a whole vast world with many many facets to it I'll cut him some slack Wink


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 7:53pm

Post #58 of 108 (734 views)
Shortcut
Uh-huh... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
None of that is particulary surprising, but I'm rather p'd off Azog is still nosing around prominently


As if his annoying role wasn't already big enough, now they're tying him to Beorn? Mad


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Aug 30 2013, 7:54pm)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 8:06pm

Post #59 of 108 (722 views)
Shortcut
Too funny!! [In reply to] Can't Post

I can just hear him doing it too!


malickfan
Gondor


Aug 30 2013, 8:11pm

Post #60 of 108 (734 views)
Shortcut
Wasn't Beorn's Grudge against Orcs supposed to be down to Bolg torturing him? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is this Azog stuff in addition to, or a replacement for this subplot?

And why on Earth do they still have the arrogance to link these films with Tolkien's Hobbit? The Book none of the screenwriters seemed very fond off, and one the filmaker freely admits to enjoying deviating from.

The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite, December 2012
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon, December 2013
The Radagast: 'Gandalf are we there yet?' December 2014

The Young Aragron Chronicles parts 1,2,3 and 4 coming Christmas 2017,2018,2019 and 2020 IN 4-D Smell-o-vision.

Azog's Summer Vacation Parts 1-12 coming to ABC Fall 2016.

All based on THE APPENDICES.





The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 8:21pm

Post #61 of 108 (641 views)
Shortcut
you shouldn't do that!!! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite, December 2012
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon, December 2013
The Radagast: 'Gandalf are we there yet?' December 2014

The Young Aragron Chronicles parts 1,2,3 and 4 coming Christmas 2017,2018,2019 and 2020 IN 4-D Smell-o-vision.

Azog's Summer Vacation Parts 1-12 coming to ABC Fall 2016.

All based on THE APPENDICES.

MY GOD!!!! I'm laughing so hard I hurt!! (If you werent aware I was in a bad car accident about 3 weeks ago) But this is Hysterically hilarious I can't stop laughing.... SlySlySly

And I whole heartedly agree because I think its a mytery as well why they are still linked to Tolkien's Hobbit. well other than character names and using the places of middle earth it seems like a completely different story Wink



malickfan
Gondor


Aug 30 2013, 8:36pm

Post #62 of 108 (623 views)
Shortcut
Sin, If you aren't aware [In reply to] Can't Post

I post occasionally on the 'The Hobbit Movie Forum' under my name Paul Ashwell, so yeah I was aware of your unfortunate car accident-best wishes for a speedy recovery btw. Smile, and I'm well aware of your views on AUJ, views which I don't entirely agree with but certainly appreciate. My user icon should give you some idea of my fondness fot Tolkien's book...

It's the British way, instead of writing a sensible reponse explaining why I was dissapointed or annoyed by aspects of Jackson's interpretation, I resorted to petty sarcasmWink.

The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite, December 2012
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon, December 2013
The Radagast: 'Gandalf are we there yet?' December 2014

The Young Aragron Chronicles parts 1,2,3 and 4 coming Christmas 2017,2018,2019 and 2020 IN 4-D Smell-o-vision.

Azog's Summer Vacation Parts 1-12 coming to ABC Fall 2016.

All based on THE APPENDICES.





The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 8:42pm

Post #63 of 108 (611 views)
Shortcut
I was under that impression myself... [In reply to] Can't Post

It seemed as if they were setting up Bolg to be Beorn's "mortal enemy", presumably because Beorn *spoiler* kills Bolg in the story.

But now with this news about Azog wiping out the rest of the Beornings, who knows anymore. All I know is that my least favorite Jackson deviation is getting FAR too prominent a role for my taste. I was hoping he'd sit this movie out for the most part, maybe pop up once or something like that, and then show up at the Bo5A in TaBA like we all know he's going to. But no, every time I turn around, his role seems to get bigger. All I can do is shake my head.

As AinurOlorin is quite fond of saying, "GO HOME AZOG, YOU'RE DEAD"


malickfan
Gondor


Aug 30 2013, 8:51pm

Post #64 of 108 (608 views)
Shortcut
But you are forgetting one thing [In reply to] Can't Post

They have...THE APPENDICES.

I've got to admit I actually like Azog's design but detest the character, his dialogue, his fork, his size, his body language, his screentime, his prominence, the related butchering of Dain's backstory, and frankly his existance so yeah why couldn't he take a unexpected trip home instead of poor old Samwise.

To me it seems Azog's almost turning into a metaphor for PJ's deviations, the cheesy bolted on subplot chasing itself in circles whilst desperately trying to be scary and relevant by creeping into the main plot unexpectly.

Though as my signature below alludes to, I fear he had become a hit with the general moviegoer and we may sadly be seing much much more of him.

The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite, December 2012
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon, December 2013
The Radagast: 'Gandalf are we there yet?' December 2014

The Young Aragron Chronicles parts 1,2,3 and 4 coming Christmas 2017,2018,2019 and 2020 IN 4-D Smell-o-vision.

Azog's Summer Vacation Parts 1-12 coming to ABC Fall 2016.

All based on THE APPENDICES.





The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 9:37pm

Post #65 of 108 (576 views)
Shortcut
Not when he had Thorin and the Dwarves locked up, though... [In reply to] Can't Post

They refused to tell him why they had stumbled into his realm and caused a disturbance. That is the reason he locked them up, to make them talk.

The quote you gave is his reaction hearing the real reason for the Dwarves' journey once they had escaped down the river and revealed themselves at Laketown. Having made that statement about no treasure coming back through Mirkwood without him having something to say about it, he immediately followed it by expressing the belief that the Dwarves wouldn't manage to defeat the dragon and would "come to a bad end and serve them right!"

To my mind, just because a character in a book "threatens" to do something in the event, doesn't mean the movie scriptwriter has carte blanche to make the character actually do it at a different time in the story.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Aug 30 2013, 9:38pm)


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 9:50pm

Post #66 of 108 (577 views)
Shortcut
It wasn't thto do with it being a cup that was stolen... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the importance is that a single piece of the hoard was taken, and Smaug knew immediately he woke up that something was wrong. It's a common device in fairytales...the evil character always knows "magically" that something is wrong when the hero is attempting to steal his prize...


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Skaan
Lorien


Aug 30 2013, 9:56pm

Post #67 of 108 (559 views)
Shortcut
Well [In reply to] Can't Post

How is one cup missing different than the Arkenstone missing? They're both single pieces of the hoard and that's why Smaug is probably looking for it and wants it back (because Bilbo stole from his hoard)

I really don't see the big deal with this other than "It's not like the book"


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 10:09pm

Post #68 of 108 (556 views)
Shortcut
Again its not what's taken its just that something is taken [In reply to] Can't Post

making it the Arkenstone Smaug wants is IMO another unnecessary deviation. One that to me doesn't make much sense...What would Smaug need with the Arkenstone? To him I'm sure it would be just another gem nothing special. dragons coveted riches. I do not think the type really matter rubies, emeralds, white gems, gold, silver, doesn't matter because they do nothing with it. They lay on it, roll in it, do whatever they want with it but have a real use for it. Other than it is something they want. Hence the term dragon sickness.

The only character the Arkenstone should be important to is Thorin since Jackson has already made it some divine thing meaning Thorin can rule. Smaug would have no use for that he is arrogant and believes he is ruler under the mountain already simply because he took the mountain from the dwarfs, he has no minions to rule over it is just him so he needs no symbol that it was meant for him to rule like Thorin.

Maybe he wants it to plug that hole in his left breast that the thrush sees who knows Crazy


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Aug 30 2013, 10:11pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 10:12pm

Post #69 of 108 (541 views)
Shortcut
exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

It's plain as day to me. Tolkien knew what he was doing Wink


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Aug 30 2013, 10:31pm

Post #70 of 108 (613 views)
Shortcut
Speaking as a straight male, I still have to say... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Bard is the most attractive Middle-earth character so far. He's taken Eowyn off of the top spot for me. Blush


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 10:45pm

Post #71 of 108 (537 views)
Shortcut
I didn't say there was any difference in that respect... [In reply to] Can't Post

My post was in reply to Jim asking what the significance of the cup was...


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 10:49pm

Post #72 of 108 (551 views)
Shortcut
I was waiting for Bard [In reply to] Can't Post

to show up with his ship from Davy Jones Locker HeartHeartHeart What do you mean Bard wasn't in Pirates of the Caribbean ? ShockedOops sorry wrong film he looks so much like Will Turner I got them confused... my bad Tongue


Thranderz
Rohan


Aug 30 2013, 10:49pm

Post #73 of 108 (553 views)
Shortcut
Love these images! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you so much for posting them! I know it's a big ask but can you post as many as possible? I know I'm greedy. Wink Or is that most of the main ones? Thanks again!

I simply walked into Mordor.


Skaan
Lorien


Aug 30 2013, 11:02pm

Post #74 of 108 (520 views)
Shortcut
That was not what i said [In reply to] Can't Post

I said that the reason Smaug is looking for the Arkenstone is probably because it's a piece of his hoard which Bilbo stole, not because it's the Arkenstone itself.

It'll probably be like: Bilbo steals the Arkenstone because he knows it's an important jewel for Thorin => Smaug gets angry because he notices a piece of his hoard is missing.


Lio
Lorien


Aug 30 2013, 11:07pm

Post #75 of 108 (525 views)
Shortcut
Beorn/Bolg/Azog subplot [In reply to] Can't Post

I think (or hope!) they keep whatever original backstory they had in mind for Beorn and Bolg, and don't reduce Bolg's role. The Azog stuff could still work though. He's Bolg's dad after all so it could very well be they are both involved in the Beorn/skinchanger subplot. In fact,when Azog is mentioned to Beorn might be a good time to introduce Bolg as well.

I'm a bit surprised, though, that apparently Azog chases the company all the way to Beorn's house? Not sure how the Orcs could have caught up with them so quickly after the eagle rescue? Crazy

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 11:17pm

Post #76 of 108 (942 views)
Shortcut
hopefully they keep it similar to the book [In reply to] Can't Post

I know I say that enough but ...

Bilbo doesn't take the Arkenstone till after he sees there is no reasoning with Thorin. After Bard and the Elves come to the front door, after they have entered into their Stalemate. To have him withhold it before just makes Bilbo seem even less honest than when he deliberately stole Gollum's ring. Tongue To me it just wouldn't make sense from a story telling point of view. Bilbo and Thorin should be on friendly terms at this point in the story and Bilbo's mind doesn't really get changed until Thorin becomes greedy and obsessed, refusing to even deal with the men of Laketown whom without their help wouldn't have gotten supplies to make it to the Lonely mountain. Makes no sense for Bilbo to hide something from a friend. But after Thorin refuses to deal with the men and elves whom without Bard Smaug would surely have came back and ate the dwarfs.

I think the whole finding and giving the Arkenstone to Bard needs to be after the dragon is dead Bilbo finding it before just leads to more questions and discrepancies in the story IMO


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Aug 30 2013, 11:20pm)


Semper Fi
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 2:02am

Post #77 of 108 (958 views)
Shortcut
Quick thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't like the cover (floating heads, random sizes), don't like that inside the book pictures are too much publicity posing, too little movie scenes (or at least those posted here are), really don't like that Bard looks exactly like Will Turner. Took me right out of the story. And he has 3 kids. Oh dear. Harry Potter kids and Aliens Newt are about the only kids in fantasy and sci fi that I could stomach.

Really like that Tauriel likes the dwarves and disagrees with Thranduil. Really like her running off to Laketown and helping one of Bard's kids with unfortunate name Tilda - ugh, seriously, they couldn't find a nice Middle Earth name? Have a big problem with Legolas running after her because he's protective. This isn't Twilight, OK? Tauriel can take care of herself. So this sounds like Legolas I shoe-horned, while Tauriel actually has a reason to be there cause, as the Chief of the King's Guard, she is responsible for re-capturing dwarves. Take that Tauriel naysayers. She has a valid place in the story. Legolas not so much if you take away the default of being Thranduil's son.

So it looks like Tauriel will be a strong character, romance a weak link and Bard is really miscast. Pretty, well-coiffed glamour boy, not a rugged, grim one. Also, how old was he when he had the first kid, 12? Laugh

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



marillaraina
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 2:42am

Post #78 of 108 (895 views)
Shortcut
hate having to write in a subject line each time [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I know I say that enough but ...

Bilbo doesn't take the Arkenstone till after he sees there is no reasoning with Thorin. After Bard and the Elves come to the front door, after they have entered into their Stalemate. To have him withhold it before just makes Bilbo seem even less honest than when he deliberately stole Gollum's ring. Tongue To me it just wouldn't make sense from a story telling point of view. Bilbo and Thorin should be on friendly terms at this point in the story and Bilbo's mind doesn't really get changed until Thorin becomes greedy and obsessed, refusing to even deal with the men of Laketown whom without their help wouldn't have gotten supplies to make it to the Lonely mountain. Makes no sense for Bilbo to hide something from a friend. But after Thorin refuses to deal with the men and elves whom without Bard Smaug would surely have came back and ate the dwarfs.

I think the whole finding and giving the Arkenstone to Bard needs to be after the dragon is dead Bilbo finding it before just leads to more questions and discrepancies in the story IMO


I don't know I always thought it was pretty unsympathetic the way Bilbo took the Arkenstone. I think he made a bad situation even worse by doing so. There was NO way Thorin was ever going to bargain to get what was rightfully his to begin with, if anything it risked just getting most of the other dwarves, who probably would have been more willing to say "hey you know, maybe we should give them a share" after thinking about it awhile, siding with him based on the fact that it was stolen and being used to force the issue, raising their dwarven hackles, etc, etc.

TBH honest that was one thing I was on Thorin's side about, even in the book. The men and elves show up on his doorstep with an army ready to go, start making demands(now I do believe the men deserved a share, some of it was from Dale and also just out good neighborliness for the fact that the dragon destroyed their town, but the elves could go jump off a cliff and they shouldn't have been interfering in an issue between men and dwarves to try and force the issue).

Then Bilbo steals the most important part of the treasure, which was a symbol of kings of Erebor, his family. For something that anyone with half a brain could see wouldn't work, because someone who is full of pride and stubborn and showing signs of instability is only going to get MORE stubborn and unstable and afraid of showing weakness when you try and force them into capitulation through blackmail.


marillaraina
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 3:48am

Post #79 of 108 (900 views)
Shortcut
subjects [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Don't like the cover (floating heads, random sizes), don't like that inside the book pictures are too much publicity posing, too little movie scenes (or at least those posted here are), really don't like that Bard looks exactly like Will Turner. Took me right out of the story. And he has 3 kids. Oh dear. Harry Potter kids and Aliens Newt are about the only kids in fantasy and sci fi that I could stomach.

Really like that Tauriel likes the dwarves and disagrees with Thranduil. Really like her running off to Laketown and helping one of Bard's kids with unfortunate name Tilda - ugh, seriously, they couldn't find a nice Middle Earth name? Have a big problem with Legolas running after her because he's protective. This isn't Twilight, OK? Tauriel can take care of herself. So this sounds like Legolas I shoe-horned, while Tauriel actually has a reason to be there cause, as the Chief of the King's Guard, she is responsible for re-capturing dwarves. Take that Tauriel naysayers. She has a valid place in the story. Legolas not so much if you take away the default of being Thranduil's son.

So it looks like Tauriel will be a strong character, romance a weak link and Bard is really miscast. Pretty, well-coiffed glamour boy, not a rugged, grim one. Also, how old was he when he had the first kid, 12? Laugh


While I agree Bard looks way too much like Will Turner, I think he looks plenty old enough to have adolescent kids, he looks in his mid-30's, at least.

I've got no issues with Tauriel, I think she has a place in the story and I agree, to me it seems like Legolas is the one being shoe-horned in.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 6:39am

Post #80 of 108 (837 views)
Shortcut
Emphasis and Nimrodel emerging [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the heads up. A couple of points of emphasis emerge.

Azog's role is gaining traction as he is now also a key adversary of Beorn. I think Bolg (the spawn of Azog, suggesting a lesser person rather than heir ) is probably now reduced to being the jailor of D.G. In story telling terms this makes sense and I am finding it increasingly difficult to see how or what purpose would be served for Bolg to survive DOS.

If Azog is Thorin's nemesis and the main protagonist of Beorn we have the perfect set up for the denouement at the BOFA with Azog in the book role taken by Bolg .

Once I became aware last year that Tauriel journeys to Lake Town it reinforced my view that the the wisp of a story from L.O.T.R. she is based on is Nimrodel. Like Amroth Legolas will go in search of her. If the N /A story plays out then L survives and T dies.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Aug 31 2013, 6:44am)


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 31 2013, 7:15am

Post #81 of 108 (827 views)
Shortcut
Looks to me like Tilda and Sigrid will have blonde hair. [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember this from video blog #7? On the second row, to the right of Christopher Lee is Luke Evans. Then there is John Bell and 2 child girls. I think it is safe to assume they are Sigrid and Tilda.



dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 31 2013, 7:21am

Post #82 of 108 (814 views)
Shortcut
Well, sorry but... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to disagree with you there.

In the book Bilbo does take the Arkenstone before there's any question of anyone resaoning with Thorin - a long time before. When Smaug attacks the mountain and the dwarves are shut in they go into the mountain and Bilbo is sent on ahead. And finding the hoard with no dragon he climbs it and finds the Arkenstone. And takes it, saying nothing:

'Suddenly Bilbo's arm went towards it drawn by its enchantment. His small hand would not close about it, for it was a large and heavy gem; but he lifted it, shut his eyes, and put it in his deepest pocket.
"Now I am a burglar indeed!" thought he. "But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it - some time. They did say I could pick and choose my own share; and I think I would choose this, if they took all the rest!" All the same he had anuncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvellous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it.'

At this point he has stolen it. He hides it among his things, 'wrapped in an old bundle of tattered oddments that he used as a pillow', and all the time Thorin is talking about it and searching for it - and actually being very nice to Bilbo - he says nothing. So if they show him in the film witholding the Arkenstone before the stand-off between Thorin and Bard they are showing exactly what happens in the book - and if that doesn't make sense to you from a storytelling point of view, I'm afraid it's Tolkien you have to blame. Hiding the Arkenstone from a friend is exactly what Bilbo did - and the point of it, I think, is the power of the hoard. Dragon sickness - that is one of the themes of the book, and Bilbo isn't immune.

[If you want to read it for yourself, it's from 'Not at Home' and 'The Gathering of the Clouds' ]


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 31 2013, 8:43am

Post #83 of 108 (813 views)
Shortcut
Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

It really is quite a reprehensible act on Bilbo's part, there's no getting away from it. I hope it comes across that way in the film. We ought to feel Thorin's betrayal, and not just sympathise with Bilbo in the pivotal scenes.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 12:10pm

Post #84 of 108 (759 views)
Shortcut
there has to be [In reply to] Can't Post

some rational for Bilbo withholding the Arkenstone from Thorin. (Jackson has deviated in every other way pretty much from the book why should this be any different Tongue) needs to be a good reason. The only good reason there will be for Bilbo to withhold it is for Bard to bargain with Thorin. No other reason makes sense with what they have already done to the characters at this point. They haven't really made Bilbo like the book in many ways, Thorin and Bilbo are supposed to be friends. Maybe Bilbo will find it early on maybe he wont. at this point nobody but Jackson knows since he has already deviated 1000 times over.

But the only scenario that makes sense to me based on the direction Jackson is taking the characters is Bilbo taking the Arkenstone maybe at anytime but withholding it because Thorin may already be showing signs of dragon sickness earlier than in the book, or doing things where Bilbo begins to not trust him. I really can't see the arkenstone which in Jackson's film is supposed to be all important in the quest to be the catalyst that sets Smaug off.

The book even sayd Bilbo no matter when he takes it had an uneasy feeling that it would cause trouble and be a problem...


Quote
"All the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvelous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it."

the character arc that Jackson has given Bilbo is one of a good person not someone who would do something out of malice. So in taking the arkenstone, which Bilbo has a feeling will cause some trouble, he is trying to stop trouble before it starts. i see nothing wrong with that. Bilbo for the most part was honest, I can't remember but i don't think he outright lied to Thorin about the arkenstone, he just chose not to tell him at that exact time to do it when he found it at a time when he felt it would not cause trouble

Quote

"But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it - some time.

which to me implies he would tell them about it even though he does contemplate keeping it. But he KNEW he would have to tell them about it. He just opted to do it when he chose. Had he not withheld the arkenstone, there would have never been any negotiating with Thorin. I'm sure Thorin would have never budged and after the BO5A would have holed himself and the dwarfs back up inside the mountain and the men elves and dwarfs would have still ended up waring with each other because of Thorin's stubbornness and greed not to at least give the men some of the treasure


dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 31 2013, 12:21pm

Post #85 of 108 (766 views)
Shortcut
Well, it's Tolkien's story you're criticising now.... [In reply to] Can't Post

And fair enough, if you don't think Tolkien's version works and you'd like Peter Jackson to improve on it.

But according to Tolkien, Bilbo took the Arkenstone because he couldn't resist it. He knew he was doing wrong and rationalised it to himself, but all the time Thorin was searching for the Arkenstone and saying how much it meant to him - and being very nice to Bilbo - Bilbo kept the stone hidden and he said nothing. At the time Thorin gave Bilbo the mithril coat, Bilbo was keeping the Arkenstone from him.


(This post was edited by Altaira on Aug 31 2013, 3:16pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 12:24pm

Post #86 of 108 (745 views)
Shortcut
forgot to say... [In reply to] Can't Post

IMO the Bottom line is, it shouldn't matter what Bilbo takes it should just matter he takes something. To me the arkenstone is the most irrational choice for the film makers to use because of its importance. It shouldn't matter WHAT Bilbo takes but IMO they shouldn't find the arkenstone till they have time to investigate and look around Erebor. We saw in the prologue that it. gets buried under mounds of treasure and surely wouldn't be found so early. Something small and insignificant should be enough to show Smaug's obsession with his treasure horde. Since they know every single piece of treasure in it and do not like to lose any of it no matter how small and meaningless.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 12:27pm

Post #87 of 108 (762 views)
Shortcut
But he also knew it would cause trouble [In reply to] Can't Post

the book even says so. I think it caught his eye but his rationalization made him realize the truth of it. Nothing that wasn't in the book Wink.

I don't think Jackson can improve on the book honestly. Tongue


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Aug 31 2013, 12:31pm)


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 1:48pm

Post #88 of 108 (738 views)
Shortcut
One reason for PJ to replace the cup with the Arkenstone... [In reply to] Can't Post

(which is the basis of what is been discussed, I think) would be simply because he wants to cut the number of times Bilbo goes up and down the tunnel to Smaug's lair. The BBC radio adaptation did this by cutting out the theft of the cup altogether, and having Smaug be aware of Bilbo the first time he comes into his presence. So, I could see Bilbo finding the Arkenstone on his first visit, which awakens the dragon, and the riddles with Smaug conversation takes place there and then...

But if PJ is keeping the sequence of events as written, then replacing the cup with the Arkenstone would cause problems because with the cup, Bilbo showed his prize to the Dwarves, and earned their praise for his courage and daring before bein sent down the tunnel again. He's hardly going to show them he's got the Arkenstone. In that sense it is better for the Arkenstone to be found by Bilbo exactly as in the book - after Smaug has flown off to Laketown and the Dwarves are all exploring the hoard.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Aug 31 2013, 1:50pm)


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 3:18pm

Post #89 of 108 (692 views)
Shortcut
About that last bit... [In reply to] Can't Post

...are you sure about the ending of the Nimrodel story arc? I seem to have mislaid my copy of Unfinished Tales, but I rechecked with the Tolkien Wiki: it is Amroth the prince who dies, drowning in a shipwreck. Nimrodel then goes off to live by herself and eventually pines away.

Not that this means that Tauriel's story arc isn't based on Nimrodel; in fact I'd been leaning about 60:40 or so in favor of Nimrodel over Glorfindel and the Witch King prophecy. The weak point of the Nimrodel idea was that, as I said above, her lover the prince dies first in her story. So...what about this: Legolas appears to die in the BOFA or some other place (maybe he appears to drown when Smaug hits Laketown) so that we have another patented Walsh / Boyens "dead...not really dead" scene. Interesting to speculate how they would take it from there.


Quote
Once I became aware last year that Tauriel journeys to Lake Town it reinforced my view that the the wisp of a story from L.O.T.R. she is based on is Nimrodel. Like Amroth Legolas will go in search of her. If the N /A story plays out then L survives and T dies.


Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 3:30pm

Post #90 of 108 (679 views)
Shortcut
Completely agree IMO its the only way it makes sense [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But if PJ is keeping the sequence of events as written, then replacing the cup with the Arkenstone would cause problems because with the cup, Bilbo showed his prize to the Dwarves, and earned their praise for his courage and daring before bein sent down the tunnel again. He's hardly going to show them he's got the Arkenstone. In that sense it is better for the Arkenstone to be found by Bilbo exactly as in the book - after Smaug has flown off to Laketown and the Dwarves are all exploring the hoard.

using the Arkenstone as to his proof of being the burglar who was able to get into Smaug's lair and back out with somethiing of the treasure would make completely no sense since it is that which Thorin covets most in the whole of Erebor Wink



marillaraina
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 4:31pm

Post #91 of 108 (680 views)
Shortcut
forgot again [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
the book even says so. I think it caught his eye but his rationalization made him realize the truth of it. Nothing that wasn't in the book Wink.

I don't think Jackson can improve on the book honestly. Tongue


That's a total misreading of what is being said in the book, IMO. Bilbo is realizing HIS taking of it will cause trouble and he does it anyway. He's not taking it to stop trouble from happening. He's thinking taking it will cause trouble, even if he does eventually tell them about it, but he does it anyway. He realized it's importance, he knows that this stone really wasn't part of the deal, he knows taking it will cause trouble. But he does it anyway.

I don't think he was really malicious but he was being selfish about it, he too in some way was seduced by it's beauty(perhaps an effect of the ring?) and so he wanted to, he rationalized, keep it for just a while and then at some point he'd tell them about it.

And in my opinion, the taking of the Arkenstone and giving it to the Elves is exactly what doomed any negotiations to failure. Then you aren't just having a tiff over money where maybe at some point saner heads would prevail but it becomes a question of deeply held dwarven pride. The Arkenstone really send Thorin over the edge.


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Aug 31 2013, 4:36pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 5:03pm

Post #92 of 108 (654 views)
Shortcut
disagree [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
That's a total misreading of what is being said in the book, IMO. Bilbo is realizing HIS taking of it will cause trouble and he does it anyway. He's not taking it to stop trouble from happening.

that is your opinion of what the book says, myself and others think it may have started out as Bilbo wanting the arkenstone but he quickly realizes it will never be his and the dwarfs will eventually have to know about it. He also acknowledges that he is sure that would NOT be part of the split even if that was all he wanted. He realizes that all in the same instance of taking it for himself. Many believe, myself included that Bilbo could sense things or could maybe already see the signs of Thorin's changing demeanor. So rather than let what may have been a possessed or irrational Thorin have his prize Bilbo withheld it for what ended up being the greater good. Because had he no withheld it there would have been NO bargaining with Thorin probably ever.

What I read and what you read may be the same words but its open to interpretation clearly Wink



Lio
Lorien


Aug 31 2013, 5:04pm

Post #93 of 108 (652 views)
Shortcut
How do you find this stuff? XD [In reply to] Can't Post

It's hard to tell from the pictures, but one of them looks older than Bain. The other (Tilda?) might be younger. Does that make Bain the middle child? Smile

I wonder what the purpose of adding these characters is, story-wise. Will we hear about Bard's family life or what happened to his wife?

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 31 2013, 5:30pm

Post #94 of 108 (656 views)
Shortcut
You give Bilbo far too much credit [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a cynical act of greed, nothing more (notwithstanding Bilbo being overcome by a slight bout of dragon sickness or the influence of the ring). Thorin is rightly angry that Bilbo A) withheld the Arkenstone from him; and B) gave it to his 'enemies'. Bilbo knows full well what he's taken, and the value of the object to Thorin. And for some time (several days) that's all he knows. What he eventually does with the Arkenstone can't be linked to his initial actions, because he doesn't possess that much foresight.


(This post was edited by Shagrat on Aug 31 2013, 5:34pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 5:40pm

Post #95 of 108 (650 views)
Shortcut
But if he hadn't what would have happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

read the text of the book... Bilbo knew immediately that he would never be allowed to keep the arkenstone, He knew he would at some point have to disclose its find to the dwarfs. He knew all that. Yes he willingly hid it from Thorin but I don't ever think he honestly thought he would hide it and keep it for his own. It says it right in the text of the book.But had he not hid it from Thorin all the dwarfs that went on that journey would likely be dead. Bilbo may not have had foresight but since Jackson wants to play up the pity of Bilbo and the destiny of the ring issue Why could it not be Bilbo's suspicions or feeling of what is becoming of Thorin be his reason for withholding the arkenstone from him... To me its obvious in the text that he knows he'll never be able to keep the arkenstone but maybe feels it isn't right to hand it over just yet. and his intuition turned out to be right just like his intuition not to kill Gollum.


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 31 2013, 5:53pm

Post #96 of 108 (653 views)
Shortcut
Why take it in the first place? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're reasoning is largely based on knowledge of later events in the book rather than Bilbo's actions at that specific moment and the immediate aftermath.

The problem as well with making Bilbo's action noble is that it essentially paints Thorin to be the bad guy when he casts Bilbo out. Some will see his side, but the majority of cinema-goers will just see him as a bully. Turning people completely against Thorin at this stage of the film would disastrous given the events which follow. There must be an obvious sense that Bilbo brings this on himself and warrants Thorin's anger. The balance has to be there.


marillaraina
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 6:12pm

Post #97 of 108 (631 views)
Shortcut
subject [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
That's a total misreading of what is being said in the book, IMO. Bilbo is realizing HIS taking of it will cause trouble and he does it anyway. He's not taking it to stop trouble from happening.

that is your opinion of what the book says, myself and others think it may have started out as Bilbo wanting the arkenstone but he quickly realizes it will never be his and the dwarfs will eventually have to know about it. He also acknowledges that he is sure that would NOT be part of the split even if that was all he wanted. He realizes that all in the same instance of taking it for himself. Many believe, myself included that Bilbo could sense things or could maybe already see the signs of Thorin's changing demeanor. So rather than let what may have been a possessed or irrational Thorin have his prize Bilbo withheld it for what ended up being the greater good. Because had he no withheld it there would have been NO bargaining with Thorin probably ever.

What I read and what you read may be the same words but its open to interpretation clearly Wink


Which is based on absolutely nothing in the quote itself. IMO it isn't open to that much interpretation. :) It's more along the lines of trying to give Bilbo excuses for what he did. I've already said I don't think he did it really maliciously, but that he was selfish about it. Nowhere is he thinking about any of that, he's thinking about the effect of what he is doing is likely to have. And even the way there is that pause in the writing while he's thinking he'll have to tell the dwarves - sometime.

That's exactly the way things are generally written/spoken when someone is making rationalizations to themselves about how they are going to do the right thing and tell the truth about it...you know, when the time is right, when they've just had a little bit more time with the thing or person they want, etc, etc. Only that "sometimes"/"just a little longer" keeps getting pushed back and pushed back and lo and behold...that "sometime" has never come unless the person is actually caught. It was pretty deliberately written that way IMO.

Thorin refused, even for the Arkenstone, if anything it appeared to me the Arkenstone is what set him solidly against the idea of negotiation and made him truly go mad, well that and you know, showing up with an army on his doorstep and showing no signs of sending the army away even when it turned out he was in fact still alive.

It was stolen and by someone he considered a trusted friend. Negotiating for something that unquestionably and rightfully belonged to him, as the king of Erebor and the head of the line of Durin was never ever going to happen, there was too much pride on the line by that point, and it didn't. The dwarves, elves and men were going to go to war against each other, it just so happens the Goblins and their allies interrupted before it started.


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Aug 31 2013, 6:15pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 6:12pm

Post #98 of 108 (639 views)
Shortcut
AGAIN read the scene in the book where Bilbo takes the Arkenstone. [In reply to] Can't Post

From the book.. this scene would take what maybe 1 or 2 minutes if that?


Quote
'Suddenly Bilbo's arm went towards it drawn by its enchantment. His small hand would not close about it, for it was a large and heavy gem; but he lifted it, shut his eyes, and put it in his deepest pocket.
"Now I am a burglar indeed!" thought he. "But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it - some time. They did say I could pick and choose my own share; and I think I would choose this, if they took all the rest!" All the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvelous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it.'

which to me means yes he took it but he had some intuition that it shouldn't be handed over yet At least that's how i read it. from reading that Bilbo has no intention of keeping the arkenstone. NONE what so ever IMO well mine and a bunch of others I have talked to your entitled to your opinion though we'll just have to wait and see how Jackson has rewritten the scene Angelic



marillaraina
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 6:23pm

Post #99 of 108 (633 views)
Shortcut
I don't want to enter a subject [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
All the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvelous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it.'


Yeah, I'm reading it and from what I can tell it's saying Bilbo knows he's doing wrong(the uncomfortable feeling) and that when it was discovered he had done so, trouble would yet come of it. It's not intuition if you know you are stealing something, which Bilbo clearly does, and have the feeling that if you get caught, it's going to cause real problems.

There's no real intuition involved, just the most basic level of common sense. It SO obvious that this stone was not included in what he could pick and choose that he immediately realized it, even as he's coming up with rationalizations for taking the stone for what he's claiming to himself will be just a little while.

A stone which he then keeps for days on end even while Thorin is still being quite nice to him and he gets more and more upset about not being able to find the Arkenstone and once Bilbo has found out exactly what the stone means.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 6:47pm

Post #100 of 108 (625 views)
Shortcut
we can keep going round and round [In reply to] Can't Post

so we can agree to disagree. i see it one way you obviously see it another way obviously others see it BOTH ways. But it depends on whether you want to justify the book or Jackson. one is Tolkien one is completely made up.

I guess I really don't care at this point what Jackson does. His film will never truly be the Hobbit for me and a great many other people.which at this point I'm perfectly fine with. it is what it is Wink At this point I'm just gonna go to DOS and treat it just like any other meaningless ( IMO ) stereotypical generic action fantasy film maybe then I can enjoy it more


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 31 2013, 9:36pm

Post #101 of 108 (306 views)
Shortcut
Bain must be the eldest ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Since he became the King of Dale. Unless, of course, Dale do not have an equal opportunity monarchy bill and/or both his sisters died.

For the only reason the annual lists them that way, I'm guessing their age orders are Bain, Sigrid and Tilda (and, therefore, the images I linked to are arranged that way).

Although a deviation, I quite like the idea of expanding Bard's character. The problem with Bard (in the book) is that he appears out of nowhere. He has no backstory, and yet, is a major hero. Perhaps they will inject some Beregond and Bergil into Bard and Bain - that will be nice.

Smile



droidsocket
Lorien

Aug 31 2013, 9:37pm

Post #102 of 108 (316 views)
Shortcut
So what you are saying..... [In reply to] Can't Post

So this is what you said....

"so we can agree to disagree. i see it one way you obviously see it another way obviously others see it BOTH ways. But it depends on whether you want to justify the book or Jackson. one is Tolkien one is completely made up."

A couple people now have given you a valid counter argument based on their interpretation of Tolkien's text. And your response is " But it depends on whether you want to justify the book or Jackson. one is tolkien and one is completely made up".

Non of these points had anything to do with what PJ is doing. There argument was examining the text as tolkien had read it.

I can only assume you think your interpretation is the True Tolkien. This is IN MY OPINION beyond narrow minded! And the reason I can't handle the garbage that comes from Fanboy Argument. Your interpretation of the text in no more and no less "Tolkien" then anybody else's!


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Aug 31 2013, 9:43pm

Post #103 of 108 (311 views)
Shortcut
About that subject line... [In reply to] Can't Post

These boards are really designed to be read in "threaded mode", so people are following a conversation. Many of us don't read every post. A subject line helps us identify which posts we want to read. It can be as simple as one word (e.g. "Agree!" or "Disagree!"), or a very brief summary of what you have to say. I often just start in on my response: for example, "The reason is that..."








Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 9:58pm

Post #104 of 108 (314 views)
Shortcut
And the text can obviously be [In reply to] Can't Post

seen in several different way apparently.... I think its all in what the reader WANTS to see personally. Like I said myself and some others see it one way others see it a different way Which side of the fence you stand on is your choice. But the reality of the Hobbit film is that it is Jackson's made up scenario not the one from Tolkien. Jackson has gloated he is enjoying changing the material that was written. So no matter what the books text saays that is not what we are getting.


Quote
Your interpretation of the text in no more and no less "Tolkien" then anybody else's!

I agree which is no less valid, I happen to know more people on many other forums who would agree with me as I'm sure anyone could say the same but many people and I am not talking this forum or any other in life in general see things the way they want to see them. When we should be seeing them in the light the author wanted them seen in. Which IMO the person that would know that best would be Christopher Tolkien

But the test of the book is open to interpretation as I have said numerous times which obviously people can't get over. Agree to disagree and move on


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Aug 31 2013, 10:05pm)


kbdiggity
Rivendell

Sep 1 2013, 4:23am

Post #105 of 108 (282 views)
Shortcut
.... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I guess I really don't care at this point what Jackson does.



Awesome.

I hope this means you will stop being a wet blanket on every single thread on this message board since you no longer care what Jackson does in the upcoming movies.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Sep 2 2013, 1:30am

Post #106 of 108 (222 views)
Shortcut
Translation [In reply to] Can't Post

get out of here, youre spoiling our fandom base fun.

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Sep 2 2013, 3:28pm

Post #107 of 108 (192 views)
Shortcut
Amroth & Nimrodel [In reply to] Can't Post

I have re read the section in Unfinished Tales and their "deaths" are left ambiguous though you can assume they both "die". The notion that Amroth is drowned is speculation as only the Elvish Mariners who departed middle earth knew precisely what happened.

My point is they are drawn to each other their relationship is affected deeply by the presence and incoming of evil and this leads them both on a journey which is ultimately tragic and this may apply to both pairs.

If Tauriel is invested with Glorfindel's prophesy that suggest the WK is at the battle of five armies representing Sauron and echoing the wars in the west of the 1970's. That exchange is tied up with Earnur but that also reminds me that the Witch King was based at Angmar so for him to lead the army to Erebor is not out of the question. A good deal will depend on how they play the BODG. Surely it should represent some kind of result for the White Council if so for the same protagonists to appear at the BOFA seems illogical and repetitive. For the audience to be aware that Sauron has merely with drawn is fine but for him and his agents to go to battle seems to overturn events that occur in the FOTR.

I suspect the film makers will show the rise of Sauron as a return to Mordor to build the Barad Dur rather than become involved deeply in the BOFA other than from a point of encouragement and influence. Their will be a big get at the BOFA and it will be the rout of the Orcs and Wargs and the death of their great chieftain which is why I am sure they are bigging up AZOG.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Elessar
Valinor


Sep 4 2013, 11:23pm

Post #108 of 108 (152 views)
Shortcut
Got mine today [In reply to] Can't Post

Got it today all the way from the UK. Cool Pretty cool little book with some great bits of info that we've seen. Glad to add it to my collection.


 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.