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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
no dain, beorn or bolg footage at all?

boldog
Rohan

Aug 17 2013, 2:11am

Post #1 of 59 (3283 views)
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no dain, beorn or bolg footage at all? Can't Post

Why, out of all the main characters, these three are so secret? We have seen pictures and toys of bolg but no footage. We seen beorn footage from trailer and brief pic from calendar and that's it. And dain we have seen absolutely nothing! Are these three reduced now to minor roles? To me they are all very important characters, but it seems that jackson must think tauriel and Lego as more superior! What do you think? And I mean no footage even behind the scenes!

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"

(This post was edited by boldog on Aug 17 2013, 2:13am)


Yngwulff
Gondor


Aug 17 2013, 2:12am

Post #2 of 59 (2134 views)
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maybe [In reply to] Can't Post

next trailer now pick up shooting is done ...

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”



duats
Grey Havens

Aug 17 2013, 2:28am

Post #3 of 59 (2137 views)
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Dain may very well not show up until Film Three [In reply to] Can't Post

After all, the character doesn't appear in the book until the Battle of Five Armies, so the lack of pictures/footage isn't all that surprising.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 17 2013, 3:27am

Post #4 of 59 (2177 views)
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everyone should know by now [In reply to] Can't Post

That Jackson's made up content takes priority over the actual stuff from the story...Tongue

Or at least it seems that way to me. Seems Jackson wants to impress people with what he can write and to heck with the story Tolkien wrote because we ALL know Tolkien was going to rewrite the Hobbit anyways. Tauriel and Legolas were the main characters in the new version Angelic didn't anyone get the memo?

Honestly I'm still on board cause I wanna finish this train wreck, its just too bad that the rest of the ride isn't nearly as good as the part that was LOTR Wink
at least after AUJ it can't get much worse


Olessan
Bree


Aug 17 2013, 4:23am

Post #5 of 59 (2169 views)
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I don't get it. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That Jackson's made up content takes priority over the actual stuff from the story...Tongue

Or at least it seems that way to me. Seems Jackson wants to impress people with what he can write and to heck with the story Tolkien wrote because we ALL know Tolkien was going to rewrite the Hobbit anyways. Tauriel and Legolas were the main characters in the new version Angelic didn't anyone get the memo?

Honestly I'm still on board cause I wanna finish this train wreck, its just too bad that the rest of the ride isn't nearly as good as the part that was LOTR Wink
at least after AUJ it can't get much worse


I see you heavily criticize the Hobbit trilogy as I lurk around the forums. Why can't you just respect the films as they are? They are adaptions, not word-for-word translations. The books and films are two separate entities.
One example is the Dwarves. Some of the designs are questionable for the film, but in the book they have absolutely zero characterization. If they were 'book-accurate' in the movie, it'd be a disaster. Thirteen cranky, bearded, almost-identical old guys, a Hobbit, and occasionally a wizard. Boring. Unengaging. Stale.

I see this ridiculous amount of hate showing up on tORn lately. I used to check here every day but with 'fans' doing nothing but complain, there's no point. There is no friendly discussion here any more and it's poisoning the boards.

Legolas should logically show up since he's Thranduil's son. Who cares if they made the captain of the guard a woman? That's only an issue for the misogynists. They do need to dial her back in the promo material, though. (Have you yet complained about Azog, the worst part so far?)
In order to adapt a book, it's generally essential for the team to take some liberties. What makes a good book does not make a good movie. They are two completely different mediums that require completely different elements to work correctly.
If the trilogy so far was 100% faithful, we would also have a ridiculous, cartoony talking purse, and a childish movie overall. We may also get such outlandish things as Beorn's animals setting the tables (I sincerely hope that's omitted, it's stupid). The Hobbit was written for young children. It would not translate properly into a decent movie without changes.


(This post was edited by entmaiden on Aug 17 2013, 1:03pm)


Yngwulff
Gondor


Aug 17 2013, 5:28am

Post #6 of 59 (1990 views)
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Sinister [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel you, and would have liked several things done differently too, but our expectations and PJ's vision are definately 2 different things. I solace myself with the parts he did get right and as for the rest that did not meet my expectations I always have the books to fall back on.

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”



The Mitch King
Rohan


Aug 17 2013, 5:53am

Post #7 of 59 (1967 views)
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Ermmmm [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That Jackson's made up content takes priority over the actual stuff from the story...Tongue

Or at least it seems that way to me. Seems Jackson wants to impress people with what he can write and to heck with the story Tolkien wrote because we ALL know Tolkien was going to rewrite the Hobbit anyways. Tauriel and Legolas were the main characters in the new version Angelic didn't anyone get the memo?

Honestly I'm still on board cause I wanna finish this train wreck, its just too bad that the rest of the ride isn't nearly as good as the part that was LOTR Wink
at least after AUJ it can't get much worse


In any other situation in life, having 1/3 of the whole truth is nothing but speculation. How then is the WHOLE trilogy already a train wreck? You can't even recite one scene from The Desolation of Smaug can you?? I get that AUJ didn't conform to all the images you had of the Hobbit in your head but why should I or anyone else expect it to be specifically this or that according to our own opinions??


The Mitch King
Rohan


Aug 17 2013, 6:01am

Post #8 of 59 (1938 views)
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Meh [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Why, out of all the main characters, these three are so secret? We have seen pictures and toys of bolg but no footage. We seen beorn footage from trailer and brief pic from calendar and that's it. And dain we have seen absolutely nothing! Are these three reduced now to minor roles? To me they are all very important characters, but it seems that jackson must think tauriel and Lego as more superior! What do you think? And I mean no footage even behind the scenes!


I don't see how you go from "Why are these characters so secret?" to "...it seems that Jackson must think tauriel and Lego are more superior!" Maybe he is putting a ton of effort into making them great for you and I!


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Aug 17 2013, 6:28am

Post #9 of 59 (1954 views)
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next trailer [In reply to] Can't Post

they don't want to reveal all their big surprises in just one trailer, it'll probably be piecemeal. Second trailer; Bolg, Beorn. Third trailer, a complete shot of Smaug flying around the lonely mountain.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!

(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Aug 17 2013, 6:30am)


emre43
Rohan

Aug 17 2013, 7:39am

Post #10 of 59 (1964 views)
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Very well said Olessan [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Legomir
Rivendell

Aug 17 2013, 8:31am

Post #11 of 59 (1869 views)
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I kind of prefer it... [In reply to] Can't Post

It reminds me of the time before I was always on the Internet and knew what most things looked like before I saw them in the theater. I was the same way with the last Harry Potter, where I was determined not to see any photos of Mundungus Fletcher and Aberforth Dumbledore. It's why I've been avoiding the photo of Beorn, and don't want to know anything about Dain, Bolg, the Master, Alfrid, etc. It just seems more exciting to know next-to-nothing about a movie before it comes out, at least on the visual side of things. It makes for a nice surprise.

And I don't think Peter Jackson is keeping these from everyone because he thinks Legolas and Tauriel are superior characters. Though I have to wonder how the Rohirrem were marketed when the Two Towers was coming out (I was too young to remember it). For better or worse, I think the Rohirrem and the Elves are equivalent in these two trilogies. They are new (ish) characters introduced in the second volume in a big part, so why not show them off, or something like that.


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 17 2013, 8:39am

Post #12 of 59 (1874 views)
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Not everything has to be revealed at once? [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you imagine if they revealed all the (main) character designs a year ago, and included behind-the-scenes footage of scenes being filmed? Where would the fun be in that? They keep things behind to keep the fans excited, and coming back for more. I wouldn't want everything spoiled at once. Out of the 3, Beorn is really the only main character. I have a suspicion Bolg and Dain will have limited screentime.

They're not withholding their designs and scenes because Legolas and Tauriel are superior characters. They're doing it to keep us excited. It also says nothing about the final film.



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Aug 17 2013, 8:42am)


Eadignes
The Shire

Aug 17 2013, 8:45am

Post #13 of 59 (1916 views)
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Nor do i get it [In reply to] Can't Post

I lurk in the forums also out of my great love of the works of tolkien, i enjoyed lotr films by peter jackson, which infact i thought i would not!
"I see this ridiculous amount of hate showing up on tORn lately", is a bit strong, this is supposed to be a discussion on the hobbit movies good or bad, i am always on the fence will see the 3 hobbit movies then make my mind up.
You must remember that this website as many other areas to post ideas and thoughts on tolkiens work and some people have great love for his works and no love of the movies.
For me the hobbit will always be a childrens fairy tale and that is how it should have stayed but i understand that it is right and proper for people to get excited about these movies and love all the changes.
So i agree some people may go to far in support of the books and hate all that peter jackson changes but on the other side of the argument i also see people going over the top in protesting about why the changes are valid.
Which is how it should be on a discussion forum!


(This post was edited by Eadignes on Aug 17 2013, 8:48am)


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 17 2013, 8:54am

Post #14 of 59 (1860 views)
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The way I see it.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Tauriel is a made-up character, and Legolas is a returning one. There's no big surprise about them. But perhaps he wants to keep Dain and Beorn rather enigmatic? We didn't see much of Azog in either form before AUJ came out, so it's not really a surprise that Bolg has remained largely secret.

In any case I don't think it's an indictment of their roles - at all. I just think it's who Warner and the marketing people want them to push.


AncalagontheBlack
Rohan

Aug 17 2013, 9:52am

Post #15 of 59 (1871 views)
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Negativity [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the things about negativity, is it needs returned negativity to thrive. The easiest best thing to do if you sense or disagree with a message is just to move past it and not respond. When I see the same message or the same message dozens of time, slightly repackaged, its clear to me that a response is being provoked or sought, so why bother when nothing will be accomplished. Its better to just post what you like, or dislike for that matter and ignore the provocative or entrenched. Open debate, with open minds is good, arguing not so much and its easy to tell from a post or string of posts which way it will likely go.


dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 17 2013, 10:51am

Post #16 of 59 (1820 views)
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I'm sure there are things they want to keep secret... [In reply to] Can't Post

..and that's fine by me. It's a balance - release enough to arouse interest and keep it stoked, but hold something back for the true reveal, which is the film itself.

Dain may not be in this film anyway. He shouldn't be, according to the book, but they may want to introduce him earlier. If they do it will be a departure from the book, and therefore something that they probably do want to keep quiet, because even people who know the book won't know it's coming.

Bolg - same applies.

Beorn will involve a lot of computer trickery, so they may still be working on him. And he, like Smaug, is one of the big characters; again, something they probably do want to keep under wraps, though they've teased us a bit with the poster image of Gandalf and Beorn in bear form. I think the calendar picture was meant to slip by unnoticed (some hope!!)

I don't see anything sinister in it and I'm sure Peter Jackson doesn't think Tauriel and Legolas are superior. Legolas is no reveal at all because we all know what he looks like; he's there to draw in fans of the previous films. Tauriel is controversial so I'd say they're putting her forward to let the die-hards get used to her. Also, frankly, because she looks good on the posters alongside Legolas. They seem to have decided to promote this as the 'Elfy' film, and although people are complaining that Thranduil (my hero!) is missing from the tie-in book covers he did feature prominently in the trailer. That may be another reason why Dain hasn't been spotlighted. He's another dwarf and we already have thirteen of those.

I'd say relax. I can't see any conspiracy here, just another stage in promoting the film. AUJ was mostly dwarves, and Bilbo, with Gandalf as the link between trilogies. This time it's elves and Legolas.


malickfan
Gondor


Aug 17 2013, 11:28am

Post #17 of 59 (1829 views)
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Hey...you may have a point about the Dwarves but lay off the purse... [In reply to] Can't Post

What's he ever done to you? Wink

I can see what you mean about the dwarves-with the exception of Balin, Thorin Bombur and Fili and Kili there is absolutely nothing to distinguish them...but I can honestly say I never found it a problem in the book-I've always viewed The Hobbit as a comedic fairytale unconected to the other books about middle earth-the fact that Bilbo, Thorin and Gandalf happen to appear in the appendices is a lucky conicidence to me-I know that may not make a lot of sense, but I really enjoy the tone and simplicty of The Hobbit (its nice to read a book by Tolkien where you don't need to set aside a whole week and have a dicionary to hand) and would have happily watched a film without any of the Dol Guldor sideplots-though of course more detail would be needed for the film.

I don't necessarily share Sinister's views entirely, but I do see where he is coming from-PJ's intrepretation of the hobbit is a rewrite not an adaptation. I have read all of Tolkien's published writings On Middle Earth (Including the HOME the Hoth and the Anotated Hobbit, but exclusing Vingwat Tengwar etc) but I remain glad that The Hobbit is set apart, and I'm not entirely pleased Jackson is 'finiishing tolkien's work' on the luckily abandoned 1960 rewrite.

Who's to say it would not have translated into a decent children's film without changes?

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.

But he isn't quite as aweome as Cirdan.


malickfan
Gondor


Aug 17 2013, 11:36am

Post #18 of 59 (1807 views)
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Would Dain's appearance strictly be a departure? [In reply to] Can't Post

Billy Connoly is credited on Imdb for DOS, and we know he started filming before they got started on the BOFA, so I have a sneaking suspcion we may see him in the flashback to Thrain's dissapearnce at Moria (OK more of a hope we will see his dialogue about the Balrog), we also know we are seeing Gandalf in Bree-so perhaps this is where the meeting of the seven dwarven lords takes palce, and this is where Dain says he is against the Quest of Erebor.

There wasn't necessarily any point or space to introduce him in the theatrical cut of AUJ, but is he radomly turns up in the third film and takes over the thron with no backstory I can see the audience being pretty peed' off...

You never know maybe Thorin will live in PJ's version Mad

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.

But he isn't quite as aweome as Cirdan.


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 17 2013, 11:54am

Post #19 of 59 (1777 views)
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There's a point [In reply to] Can't Post

It'd be great if we see Dain pursue Azog into Moria, only to see something, and then tries to stop Thrain from doing the same thing, but to no avail. Since we know they've re-filmed the Thrain outside Moria bits it's possible.


malickfan
Gondor


Aug 17 2013, 12:07pm

Post #20 of 59 (1783 views)
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It would be great if we had an Armoured Boar vs Balrog showdown... [In reply to] Can't Post

And what's the betting PJ will take the Dain 'Ironfoot' literally and gve him Iron feet as a result of battle injuries...

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.

But he isn't quite as aweome as Cirdan.


Skaan
Lorien


Aug 17 2013, 12:42pm

Post #21 of 59 (1783 views)
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As others have said [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see why everything needs to be revealed at once? We know they'll be in the movies, so why worry about a lack of footage? We didn't see Azog in the trailers for AUJ aswell and yet he turned out to be one of the most important characters of AUJ.

Personally, the more footage and shots of Tauriel and Legolas they recycle/reveal, the better. Because they're the characters i'm the least interested in and it means everything else won't get spoiled too quickly.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 17 2013, 1:09pm

Post #22 of 59 (1765 views)
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Post edited to remove personal attack. Let's refresh our understanding of the rules, YET AGAIN. [In reply to] Can't Post

The admins have had to edit and remove hundreds of posts over the last few months, and a majority of the posts are edited or removed because they violate our rule #3, which states:

3. Posts containing racial, ethnic, religious, political, sexual or other slurs, personal attacks (on a TORn user or other person) intentional attempts to drive posters away or make them feel unwelcome, or posts made with the purpose of criticizing or insulting another poster will be edited or removed.

I bolded the part that is repeatedly violated. Please read and understand this rule, and think before you post!

Olessan, I realize you haven't posted much here, and while I had to edit part of your post, I'm just using it for the opportunity to remind EVERYONE that the site owners do not tolerate violations of our Terms of Service. These are not rules made up by the admins, but by the site owners. While my post is a reply to yours, it's meant for EVERYONE.


dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 17 2013, 1:43pm

Post #23 of 59 (1717 views)
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Well, Dain's appearance isn't in the book [In reply to] Can't Post

... so it's something none of us can predict and I'm pretty sure I've heard Peter Jackson say he likes to introduce some elements of surprise. He may appear, but I doubt if they'll trail it beforehand.

And no. There is no way under the sun that that will happen with Thorin. Peter Jackson has a lot more nous than you think.


Rohirrim Rider
Rivendell


Aug 17 2013, 2:47pm

Post #24 of 59 (1727 views)
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Good point - it may be similar to Denethor in TTT [In reply to] Can't Post

We see a scene of him interacting with established characters, setting audience sup for his 'roper' role I the third part. Of course Denethor's scene got put into the EE rather than the theatrical (rightfully so I felt) but whether Dain ends turns up on the cinema screen in December or DVD next November it could work in a similar fashion.


In Reply To
Billy Connoly is credited on Imdb for DOS, and we know he started filming before they got started on the BOFA, so I have a sneaking suspcion we may see him in the flashback to Thrain's dissapearnce at Moria (OK more of a hope we will see his dialogue about the Balrog, we also know we are seeing Gandalf in Bree-so perhaps this is where the meeting of the seven dwarven lords takes palce, and this is where Dain says he is against the Quest of Erebor.



glor
Rohan

Aug 17 2013, 5:17pm

Post #25 of 59 (1672 views)
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Secret yes and, marketing [In reply to] Can't Post

I have said this before but, I will say it again.

The trailers are there to promote and market a film, to get posteriors on seats. The trailers aren't there to get the fans and geeks to see the movie, they are already going with or without a trailer. The trailer is designed to get people to see TDOS at the cinema, who need to be reminded that TH is a trilogy, people that are non-fans/geeks to get excited enough to get out their wallets come December and, buy their cinema ticket for TDOS.

The one Middle-Earth race that was by far and away the most popular amongst general, non-Tolkien reading, cinema goers during the LOTR years were elves, this trailer says if you saw AUJ and wanted more elves, they are in TDOS, if you want elves come to the cinema in December.

Of course any big film, will keep some of it's secrets under wraps until release, otherwise what's the point of going to see the film if the trailer gives you everything?


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Aug 17 2013, 5:29pm

Post #26 of 59 (453 views)
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I hope not... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I have a suspicion Bolg and Dain will have limited screentime.


Not that I want to see either character take huge roles within the story, but IMO it'd be a bit disappointing if supposed-to-be-150-years-dead Azog got more screentime than Bolg, seeing as Bolg actually has an active role in the book. As for Dain, well I'm hoping he gets to do what he should have done at Azanulbizar, which is decapitate Azog. He does become King Under the Mountain, after all, so I feel he needs a heroic moment, and he shouldn't have all of his deeds appropriated by Thorin.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Aug 17 2013, 6:15pm

Post #27 of 59 (468 views)
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Billy Connolly refered to Dain as a "cameo"... [In reply to] Can't Post

introducing what is ostensibly the Prince Imrahil of TH late into the third act is problematic, hence why the former character was not included in LotR. Dain will probably be a fairly brief role.

Bolg is certainly an unknown quantity right now - as he's played by an actor in prosthetics rather than the digital Azog (as far as we know); directly serves the Necromancer as opposed to Azog who seems to be autonomous (though he may have been set on Thorin & Co. by the Necro); and wears actual armor while Azog prefers his kilt/skirt/diaper...IMO Azog and Bolg might represent the transition by the Orcs from bands of raiders in the wild to a more organized army with a higher level of industry (as exhibited by the Mordorish Orcs in the latest blog) as their races rises simultaneously with the rise of Sauron (again) in ME.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Pazeer
Rivendell


Aug 17 2013, 6:15pm

Post #28 of 59 (462 views)
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Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

My thoughts exactly!
Too much hate on these forums, especially exhausting when it's the same complaints on every new post involving The Hobbit.
Great to see someone who agrees!


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Aug 17 2013, 6:25pm

Post #29 of 59 (450 views)
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If one is not a mod... [In reply to] Can't Post

continually telling people what they may and may not talk about on the boards in generally not helpful. Smile

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Pazeer
Rivendell


Aug 17 2013, 6:47pm

Post #30 of 59 (422 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't actually say what people may or may not talk about, I just expressed my opinion that it's not fun seeing the same complaints on every single post.Smile


painjoiker
Grey Havens


Aug 17 2013, 6:56pm

Post #31 of 59 (431 views)
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One is allowed to say anything, [In reply to] Can't Post

if it's said in the right manner Wink
There are ways of saying what you disagree with or don't like about these movies without making it sound like "hate" Smile
"Hate" creates a bad "environment"/mood and is why so many react in the way they do...
I'm not saying that I'm perfect and always post everything i dislike about something in a friendly manner, but that should not stop anyone from trying Smile

Vocalist in the progressive metal band 5 Minutes Late
and the progressive doom rock band Mater Thallium


Jim
Rivendell


Aug 17 2013, 7:12pm

Post #32 of 59 (429 views)
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Its the same old.... [In reply to] Can't Post

tired complaints I've heard since coming to torn in 2002. You're going to eat a lot of humble pie in ten years time because you are pretty much making the same general complaints as a lot of people did back then and now the Rings movies have gone down in history as some of the best ever.

If you don't like the movie then don't bother spending your hard earned cash in seeing it, you've always got the book to go back to.


(This post was edited by Jim on Aug 17 2013, 7:14pm)


boldog
Rohan

Aug 17 2013, 7:42pm

Post #33 of 59 (427 views)
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it always seems to be my threads that always cause arguments, and code violation [In reply to] Can't Post

Frown

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


Jim
Rivendell


Aug 17 2013, 7:56pm

Post #34 of 59 (400 views)
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Don't worry..... [In reply to] Can't Post

boldog, it seems the courtesy of these halls has somewhat lessened of late. ;)


shadowdog
Rohan

Aug 17 2013, 8:05pm

Post #35 of 59 (394 views)
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Thank You [In reply to] Can't Post

I totally agree. I love the books; but if the movies had followed the books to the letter they would have been unwatchable. Every person reading the books forms his/her own visual image in their mind. There is no way a movie made by any director based on any person's script could possibly match every persons mental images to a tee. The fact that some scenes differ from the book does not warrant the type of vitriol toward Jackson that I keep reading in here.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 17 2013, 8:20pm

Post #36 of 59 (404 views)
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How is it an adaptation if [In reply to] Can't Post

half or almost half of the films are made up?

That to me is rewriting. An adaptation would tell the story in the book which is only part of what Jackson is doing. All this added material to make the hobbit something epic to me has just made it more cluttered and a more confusing tale half of which totally contradicts what Tolkien wrote. The hobbit was never a prequel to LOTR, it just wasn't written that way and Tolkien never IMO intended it to be that way. So for Jackson to do that goes against what Tolkien wanted. Had Tolkien wanted to rewrite the Hobbit it would have been done by him.

Maybe there is a ridiculous amount of hate is because people realize these films are a joke when held side by side with LOTR. The best material in the Hobbit films so far have been the parts that stuck to the book IMO. The amount of changes compared to LOTR and that the changes seem to be made just for the sake of change and not from a good story telling point of view. Everyone has an opinion of the Hobbit films. I'm glad some people are liking Jackson's meddling with the story but not everyone feels that way.


Quote
It would not translate properly into a decent movie without changes.

There are ways to do that but still keep events the same as the book. Make them more mature more realistic. But much of the material Jackson is adding is OTT and outrageous. Stuff that never ever happened in the book (riding on the stone giants) and I have raised several issues with Azog who is I agree the worst character in the films so far. But there are ways to omit stuff like the talking purse and walking animals of Beorn's with more realistic situations which Jackson has not done. He has IMO replaced childish situations with OTT cartoonish ones anyways. which to me is no difference. The Hobbit doesn't work in the same way LOTR did for me. Not saying I don't like the film, I love the parts of the Hobbit that stuck close to the source material the rest of the made up stuff to me is just horrible.


Lio
Lorien


Aug 17 2013, 8:24pm

Post #37 of 59 (388 views)
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I hope their roles aren't minor [In reply to] Can't Post

But as has been said, the amount of promotional material they get does not necessarily reflect how much they'll be featured in the movies. Actually Dain, Beorn, and Bolg are the three characters I'm looking forward to seeing the most so they better have big roles! Wink And yes the lack of info is killing me. Laugh

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Aug 17 2013, 8:28pm

Post #38 of 59 (393 views)
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Well, It's not fun for me to encounter the same posts [In reply to] Can't Post

complaining that not everyone here is brimming with praise for TH, so I guess we're on the same boat. Smile

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Aug 17 2013, 8:37pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 17 2013, 8:29pm

Post #39 of 59 (389 views)
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Trust me [In reply to] Can't Post

I love the parts that stuck to the book, there just wasn't enough of those moments for me to feel satisfied with what Jackson gave us Wink


AncalagontheBlack
Rohan

Aug 17 2013, 8:32pm

Post #40 of 59 (383 views)
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More than Adaptation [In reply to] Can't Post

I think PJ has been clear that he is telling the tale of the Hobbit in the three movies and they are intended to be part of a six movie set chronicling the events of the War of the Ring. Why the debate about it being a straight adaptation? The director himself has stated that is more than that. What else needs to be said on that particular issue? It seems that there is no need to convince anyone about the nature of the movies, while what people like is a whole different debate.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Aug 17 2013, 8:33pm

Post #41 of 59 (391 views)
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Actually, no one here hates on TH for the sake of it... [In reply to] Can't Post

This isn't IMDB. However, their opinions do seem to be written off as "baseless ranting" more often than not. Smile

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 17 2013, 8:46pm

Post #42 of 59 (377 views)
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If these were my films... [In reply to] Can't Post

I would also save the big reveal of Dain for There and Back Again. The Iron Hill Dwarves don't properly enter the story until the build-up to the Battle of Five Armies; although, Jackson could show King Dain receiving Thorin's plea for help and then mustering his Dwarves to war.

Similarly, Bolg might not show up until the third film. I expect an official reveal of Beorn as we get closer to the release of The Desolation of Smaug.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


flameofudun
Lorien

Aug 17 2013, 11:55pm

Post #43 of 59 (321 views)
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Well said Mitch king. [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree.

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli


flameofudun
Lorien

Aug 18 2013, 12:00am

Post #44 of 59 (325 views)
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Your threads are some of the most generally interesting threads I've read. [In reply to] Can't Post

I actually really enjoy those threads regarding lore. Keep up the good work boldog.

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli


flameofudun
Lorien

Aug 18 2013, 12:05am

Post #45 of 59 (363 views)
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Well as for dain here is an image [In reply to] Can't Post

Not sure if you have already seen it, but it was on the lotr wiki and is clearly billy Connolly. It is the main image for dain the second ironfoot, which is the dain of the hobbit.


EDIT: my phone is being rather finicky in uploading the image so if it doesn't work make sure to just look up dain ironfoot on the lotr wiki and the first thing u will see is an image of dain.

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli

(This post was edited by flameofudun on Aug 18 2013, 12:08am)


flameofudun
Lorien

Aug 18 2013, 12:19am

Post #46 of 59 (357 views)
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Oh never mind it appears [In reply to] Can't Post

This was just a trading card. Damn! Sorry!

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli


boldog
Rohan

Aug 18 2013, 8:18am

Post #47 of 59 (306 views)
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thanks flame of udun! [In reply to] Can't Post

for the encouragement. put a smile on my faceSmile

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Aug 18 2013, 1:49pm

Post #48 of 59 (293 views)
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Dain, Bolg and Beorn (The good the bad and the ugly) Book Spoilers [In reply to] Can't Post

Daniel I am keeping away from any images or details of DOS but I am constantly fascinated by the evolving changing process of these films both from book and within the making themselves. These three characters may all be being kept under wraps but I have a hunch two of them look quite different to how they started.

Beorn

He is in where we expect in DOS what I am less clear is the BOFA entrance. I will come back to that.

Bolg

Probably the most changed character originally Conan was Azog ( was it Azog that was slain by Dain at Azanulbizar but amended later to wounded by Dwalin) then moved to Bolg whose role as jailor at DG is entirely new does he survive the BODG who knows but if he does he then has to be reconnected with the Northern Plot and eventually be killed by .......

Dain

Written out of Azanulbizar his description sounds like what we got for Dwalin. Thorin rather self consciously says he is not coming to help at Bag End. Is that a nod that Yes we know he lives in this version of middle earth but he is not involved. Was Billy Connolly mentioned in this recent run of filming which he alluded in 2012 to being involved in.

That brings me to the shape of BOFA. These battles work in three phases the initial build up of tension and first exchange/ the middle heroic stage where people tend to die and finally the denouement where the forces of good prevail including a final jeopardy phase. That's how Pellennor went and I can see the various forces involved going the same way.

What fascinates me is the final stage at Pellennor Aragorn turns up with the army of the dead. With BOFA we have potentially Beorn/Eagles/Dains army. The arrival of Beorn and Eagles gives the battle a semi mythical remote feel. In that semi mythical grand phase I would only see the Dwarves role as being strategic and impersonal whereas the Elves and Men have been there all along with certain characters heavily featured and entwined in the battle sequences. From a story telling point of view and its Bilbo/Gandalf's and Thorin's story what does Dain actually provide except rapprochement with Thorin. I am with you Dain is at most a cameo possibly no more involved as a character than say Thror whose involvement was symbolic and gave Thorin back story.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Aug 18 2013, 1:50pm)


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2013, 2:50pm

Post #49 of 59 (264 views)
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I'm not sure why they'd do this... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
but if he does he then has to be reconnected with the Northern Plot and eventually be killed by ....... Dain


..if the rumors are true, then apparently Beorn is involved in a scene where he is tortured by Bolg. Add to that the fact that Bolg has bear paws attached to his armor, and it looks like they are setting up a rivalry between Beron and Bolg, presumably ending with *SPOILER* Beorn killing Bolg at the Bo5A, like he does in the book. I'm assuming this is probably why Bolg has been turned into the dungeon master of Dol Guldur, instead of being the leader of the Gundabad tribe of orcs.

I know I probably sound like a broken record regarding this, but I'm really hoping Dain, instead of Thorin, gets to kill Azog at the Bo5A.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Aug 18 2013, 3:08pm

Post #50 of 59 (246 views)
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True, but... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I am with you Dain is at most a cameo possibly no more involved as a character than say Thror whose involvement was symbolic and gave Thorin back story.



...Dain DOES become King under the Mountain, which is sort of important because the entire story (and especially true for the film adaptation) revolves around Thorin's quest to retake his homeland and reclaim his rightful throne. So unless Jackson and Co. are going to completely omit Dain's ascension to the throne of Erebor, then Dain needs to do SOMETHING. There is no excuse for them to cut out Dain becoming King under the Mountain - if they have room to concoct active roles for Azog, Legolas, and Radagast (and invent their own characters on top of that), then they should have room to establish Dain as something more than just a part of Thorin's backstory.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Aug 18 2013, 3:09pm)


Old Toby
Grey Havens


Aug 18 2013, 4:43pm

Post #51 of 59 (324 views)
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I think you're right DanielLB [In reply to] Can't Post

and with the amount of scrutiny and nail-biting that goes on with each and every snippet we get to see, I can understand not wanting to show us everything in advance. I for one want to be taken by surprise on a lot of things, and the only way for me to do that is not to look. There are many things that we, as long-time fans, would like to see and know, but for the general public (for whom these films are made) these other characters have no meaning...yet.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Glorfindela
Valinor


Aug 18 2013, 5:22pm

Post #52 of 59 (327 views)
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I totally agree with that, and trust the publicity for T & L does not indicate these two will be major players in the film [In reply to] Can't Post

If it is the case that they are bombarding us with images of those two as a kind of cover for the good stuff that is to come, that is absolutely fine by me. I too don't want to be spoiled by seeing Beorn, Smaug, Thranduil and all our established heroes again much before I see DoS.

I'm very much hoping that is what is happening here…


In Reply To
Personally, the more footage and shots of Tauriel and Legolas they recycle/reveal, the better. Because they're the characters i'm the least interested in and it means everything else won't get spoiled too quickly.



(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Aug 18 2013, 5:25pm)


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Aug 18 2013, 10:17pm

Post #53 of 59 (292 views)
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Beorn/Bolg a story Dain not so much [In reply to] Can't Post

Your two posts highlight the different challenges.

A Beorn/Bolg feud developed and resolved over two movies will provide the audience with a real sense of connection.

Contrast that with Dain appearing at the BOFA a huge movement itself and then "there now Dain son of Nain took up his abode, and he became king under the mountain, and in time..."is all we are offered then he can only act as historical back drop like Thror. To acknowledge his ascension to the restored throne ticks a box but after nine hours of fully developed journeys with so many others it can only act as historical colour. If you were to deepen Dains involvement in the final film you would have to build toward it and that in story telling terms would be a distraction. I do not see the March of the Army of the Iron Hills being treated like the Ride of The Rohirrim.

Dain has denied offer of help there would have to be some face to face rapprochement now between Dain and Thorin for the story to gain traction. Indeed the more I think about the implications that Dain has been seen to refuse help, without some kind of managed change of heart on his part, a last minute dash to the mountain is not going to look very noble. All in all this is a grey area for me at present.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


kbdiggity
Rivendell

Aug 19 2013, 12:13am

Post #54 of 59 (263 views)
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.... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Why, out of all the main characters, these three are so secret? We have seen pictures and toys of bolg but no footage. We seen beorn footage from trailer and brief pic from calendar and that's it. And dain we have seen absolutely nothing! Are these three reduced now to minor roles? To me they are all very important characters, but it seems that jackson must think tauriel and Lego as more superior! What do you think? And I mean no footage even behind the scenes!





This is about marketing, and not giving you a sneak peak at what you most want to see.

This has NOTHING to do with who has the biggest roles in the film and who is going to have minor roles or be excluded. This is about putting butts in the seats at the movie theater (and my butt and your butt are going to be there regardless.)


Evangeline Lily, Orlando Bloom, and Luke Evans are "Hollywood Pretty." They are going to attract the audience members who might not normally see a fantasy movie. That is why you see their faces slapped everywhere. It is about ticket sales. Giving people a sneak peak of Beorn or Dain or the Necromancer or giant honey bees might appeal to the Tolkien fans, but the Tolkien fans are buying tickets regardless. The #1 concern for the movie studios is to attract customers outside the normal demographic for a movie like this. That is why Arwen got a bigger role in the past, that is why Thorin looks so handsome, and that is why you are seeing this current marketing campaign.


Yngwulff
Gondor


Aug 19 2013, 3:00am

Post #55 of 59 (254 views)
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Dain [In reply to] Can't Post

The only way in my mind Dain could appear in DOS would be part of a flashback involving Gandalf meting Thorin in Bree and Thorin subsequently trying to recruit Dain and other dwarves for the Erebor quest.

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Aug 19 2013, 8:47am

Post #56 of 59 (225 views)
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The Dwarf-meet at Ered Luin [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The only way in my mind Dain could appear in DOS would be part of a flashback involving Gandalf meeting Thorin in Bree and Thorin subsequently trying to recruit Dain and other dwarves for the Erebor quest.



Realistically, none of the Iron Hill Dwarves should have been at the Ered Luin meeting. If they had been, Thorin should have had a better idea of the condition of the lands and roads that he was going to be traveling through. Dain was probably not there in any event; chances are that he sent an envoy instead.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Yngwulff
Gondor


Aug 20 2013, 4:11pm

Post #57 of 59 (165 views)
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Thats fine [In reply to] Can't Post

Dain gets sent a letter from Thorin, but you see what I'm talking about

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”



Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 20 2013, 8:33pm

Post #58 of 59 (151 views)
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As long as [In reply to] Can't Post

they use the ravens to send the letter instead of some horrible idea of Radagast taking the letter or something bad like that.Wink


tarasaurus
Rohan


Aug 25 2013, 4:10am

Post #59 of 59 (138 views)
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I agree very much [In reply to] Can't Post

I've felt this way for a long time and I feel you summarized my (and probably some others') feelings up very well.

 
 

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