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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What ever happened to making the book come to life?
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Aug 15 2013, 10:10pm

Post #151 of 205 (802 views)
You have captured in a nutshell everything I hate about movie Aragorn. [In reply to] Can't Post

He's the King of the freaking Numenoreans, for crying out loud. I don't need to identify with him. I don't need to sympathize with him. He's not supposed to be "human" and approachable. He's supposed to be great and high and remote and powerful. Frankly, Denethor would be a better king than movie Aragorn. Tongue

For some reason, however, I don't have any problem with movie Thorin. Mostly, I guess, because except for being much younger than book Thorin, I really don't see that much difference. He's less stuffy, maybe, and less self-important, but I don't see that as a major change. Even in the book, he doesn't turn into a real jerk until they get into Smaug's hoard.

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)

Guardian of the Galaxy / Moderator

Aug 15 2013, 10:25pm

Post #152 of 205 (767 views)
I'm sure it was here on the Hobbit board [In reply to] Can't Post

Try searching on music. Since there aren't a lot of posts that talk about the music, it should not be too hard to find it. I'll try to search tonight.


Aug 15 2013, 10:50pm

Post #153 of 205 (758 views)
Doug has an account here. Just check his post history. [In reply to] Can't Post


One can also read his blog.

and track his post history on there:

LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

(This post was edited by Magpie on Aug 15 2013, 10:51pm)


Aug 15 2013, 11:10pm

Post #154 of 205 (764 views)
Aragon [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragon both in the book and movie don't seem to be just another "human". I don't see how you're getting that one to be honest. The difference in the two is in the book he accepts being king from the start and comes to it later in the movie. At all times he comes across as good person but something more special than others around him. In both the book and movie he comes across as humble and like able. I love the character in both forms. If he was like Thorin (book) or Denethor he'd be totally unlikeable. I'm not a fan of pompous self loving jerks.

Justice League

Aug 15 2013, 11:20pm

Post #155 of 205 (746 views)
I thought book Aragorn was a much better character [In reply to] Can't Post

Not saying I hated film Aragorn, but I never could understand why Jackson felt that the whole reluctant king thing was better than the book. Maybe because it gave him another scene with Arwin and Elrond to reforge the sword and make it seem more heroic. But I hated it, I felt it was another needless change just for the sake of changing things from the original. Just like I hated the treatment of Faramir. The other characters that were altered I could live with because they were minor characters, But Faramir and Aragorn are the 2 I hated their changes. Overall with LOTR I think Jackson pulled off a miracle and made 3 great films but the Hobbit thus far for me has been nothing but a let down filled with totally unnecessary changes, and additions that make no sense what-so-ever to me.


Aug 15 2013, 11:25pm

Post #156 of 205 (748 views)
Book Aragorn [In reply to] Can't Post

I love that version as well. I just don't have a problem with the movie version. I love the whole reforge bit as well. That little sequence is really fantastic. I'm glad the EE fixed Faramir a bit but I do understand why he was changed, now going to Osgiliath makes less sense to me. The three LOTR films are amazing. I love them. We totally disagree on The Hobbit as I'm sure you're aware.


Aug 15 2013, 11:36pm

Post #157 of 205 (740 views)
Not "a human." Just "human." [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe I should have said that he didn't need to be "humanized."

Instead of making him confident in his divine right, as it were, to be King, they made him reluctant and unwilling. And part of the justification I heard for that change is because viewers could relate to him better that way. All I'm saying is that Tolkien never meant people to relate to him. He was meant to be a symbol or a type. He is more special than everyone around him, because of his ancestry, and he knew it and acted on that knowledge. He didn't have to have his purpose foisted on him by his girlfriend's daddy.

(Movie Elrond is another character I'm not too fond of, but that's another [long] story...)

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)

Guardian of the Galaxy / Moderator

Aug 15 2013, 11:43pm

Post #158 of 205 (725 views)
It might not have been him to say it. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just can't remember, but I'll try to find the relevant post tonight.


Aug 15 2013, 11:43pm

Post #159 of 205 (721 views)
Humanized [In reply to] Can't Post

Got ya. I love how he's done both ways so I can't complain myself. I'm just a happy camper I suppose.


Aug 16 2013, 12:04am

Post #160 of 205 (723 views)
your issues with (movie) elrond [In reply to] Can't Post

... i'm actually curious to hear... if you'd be kind enough to spend time typing out the pixels. : )

cheers : )


aka. fili orc-enshield
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

Guardian of the Galaxy / Moderator

Aug 16 2013, 1:29am

Post #161 of 205 (710 views)
Here you go - it was on Facebook [In reply to] Can't Post

Peter blogged through an entire day of shooting, and during those posts he talked briefly about the score and re-using LOTR themes.

I'll link to the page below, but here's the relevant paragraphs:

The score for Film 2 is going to be terrific. Last year, we were a little frustrated because we had to revisit so many of the LotR themes - The Shire, Rivendell, Galadriel, Gollum, and the Ring - we did this because I'm wanting these 3 Hobbit movies to have great unity with the Rings films in design, wardrobe, story and music, so it meant "An Unexpected Journey" had to acknowledge what had gone before.

But this time around, apart from a couple of Ring moments, it's all new: Beorn, Mirkwood, The Woodland Realm, Laketown, Bard and Smaug all give Howard the chance to write brand new themes, and he's knocking it out of the park!

Here's the link to Peter's Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/PeterJacksonNZ

Look for the posts on July 25, the one titled Music Spotting with Howard Shore.


Aug 16 2013, 5:29am

Post #162 of 205 (681 views)
Agreed on money and culture. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that's a big part of the problem. Tolkien was an amateur author - very much of his time, who was not concerned with brands and franchises and marketing - which is the language of modern film-making. He did not try to appeal to a demographic, which meant he was free to give people something they didn't know they wanted. That approach is the opposite of the attempts to modernise and feminise the film.

I also agree about the cultural tone. The Hobbit is part travelogue - the journey Bilbo makes is effectively a trip from one historical place to another - from his typically English pre-industrial village (the type the Georgians or early Victorians would recognise), to the wild lands of Scandinavia or Northern Europe, also simultaneously going back to a time where myths were part of everyday life. The Misty Mountains are misty for a reason - everything's a bit ethereal and strange, the stone giants were seen from a distance - again for a reason - Bilbo is seeing the old tales (which he's almost stopped believing) coming to life.

The tale, although a children's story at first, is quite sparse and cold and very northern in tone. People are grumpy, they don't emote - as Bilbo did in the cave, and at the end of the film. They complain about each other, they grumble, they understate, they don't hug each other - they're not from California.

The Lord of the Rings is a much more southern influenced tale - they go south fairly soon, and much of the additional action reflects central European culture. Also, the relationships are more generically modern, with much more emotion being on show - Frodo, Sam, Faramir, Boromir, Denethor etc.

I think that's one reason that they were more successful with the tone of LOTR films than they have been with The Hobbit - where was Bilbo's grumbling about the discomfort of his journey? What happened to the dwarves bickering about losing him in the mountains? The anger in The Hobbit is mostly small and petty, but the film makers have gone for dramatic emotions - as in Thorin, and Bilbo's heartfelt speeches, because they're making an 'epic'. Problem is The Hobbit isn't an epic - it's a fireside tale.

Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Aug 16 2013, 11:59am

Post #163 of 205 (537 views)
Yes, beautifully said, Michelle. [In reply to] Can't Post

I too totally agree, though I got a kick out of the Stone Giant sequence which, unlike the Warg chase, only lasts for about a minute.


Aug 16 2013, 1:02pm

Post #164 of 205 (512 views)
Inconsistency of tone (*book spoilers*) [In reply to] Can't Post

"The anger in The Hobbit is mostly small and petty, but the film makers have gone for dramatic emotions - as in Thorin, and Bilbo's heartfelt speeches, because they're making an 'epic'. Problem is The Hobbit isn't an epic - it's a fireside tale. "

Thorin and Bilbo do make heartfelt speeches in the book, and at a point when the action and events have taken on an epic cast. My personal feeling is that this can be done in a book, and less so on film. I find the speeches of Thorin and Bilbo at Thorin's deathbed and the actions of other characters (Bard, Elvenking) at Thorin's funeral, he was a character with admirable traits to match his flaws, and Bilbo had found him so.

In a book, whether for reasons of "northern character" or others, it is possible to pull this off, as we know only what we are told by the narrator, about the characters' inner feelings and outer actions. In a film, we can still be limited by the scenes the filmmakers choose to adapt, but we must be given more, in the form of actors' performances of the characters they are playing which must be consistent with what one may (retrospectively) deduce they were thinking and feeling.

In light of this difference, I dont; find it inappropriate for an adaptation to make alterations to the original that go beyond this.

Fantastic Four

Aug 16 2013, 1:24pm

Post #165 of 205 (496 views)
Ah, looks like i did read that one [In reply to] Can't Post

I figured it would be another post since you thought it was Doug who posted it. Sorry for the trouble!

But either way, thanks for finding the link, i enjoyed reading it again.

Guardian of the Galaxy / Moderator

Aug 16 2013, 2:56pm

Post #166 of 205 (480 views)
Sub-thread removed for containing disparaging remarks and insults [In reply to] Can't Post

Apologies to anyone who's post was 'collateral damage.' PM an Admin if you'd like the text of your post so you can re-post it. Smile

Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.

"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase

The Grey Elf

Aug 16 2013, 3:15pm

Post #167 of 205 (463 views)
Thank you, Prof. Johnson [In reply to] Can't Post

You took the words right from my heart. Smile

Welcome more children to Middle Earth. Support The S.H.I.R.E. Project!


Aug 16 2013, 3:25pm

Post #168 of 205 (460 views)
Well said :-) [In reply to] Can't Post



Aug 16 2013, 3:44pm

Post #169 of 205 (452 views)
Nicely put! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, once it was decided that The Hobbit would be filmed as a prequel to the complex LOTR rather than a simple stand-alone story the entire sensibility of the movies would naturally change.

Once Gandalf dreamt he was a moth, a moth flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Gandalf. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakably Gandalf. But he didn't know if he was Gandalf who had dreamt he was a moth, or a moth dreaming he was Gandalf. Between Gandalf and a moth there must be some distinction! But really, there isn't, because he's actually Olórin dreaming he's both Gandalf *and* a moth!
-From Gandalfi: The Moth Dream

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Aug 16 2013, 3:46pm)


Aug 16 2013, 4:32pm

Post #170 of 205 (425 views)
mmmm... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the info, but I'm not really sold on recycling LOTR music during the Thorin vs Azog scene-neither character is so much as mentioned in the other trilogy.

Save the Texas Prairie Chicken.


Aug 16 2013, 4:38pm

Post #171 of 205 (431 views)
Those points [In reply to] Can't Post

have nothing to do with the changes in movie Thorin. Sure there's quite a bit of tweaking to when adapting a book to film but I don't see any cause for a GQ ready Thorin other than marketing reasons.

Save the Texas Prairie Chicken.


Aug 16 2013, 4:41pm

Post #172 of 205 (420 views)
He just didn't come across as very...Elvish. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's hard to explain. But Elves, especially the high elves who went to Valinor, are supposed to be wise and noble. And Elrond just came across as petty and mean.

To start with, there was his utter disdain for the entire race of Men in general, and Aragorn specifically. Yeah, Isildur messed up, but why does that make the entire race useless? I mean, what was Elendil? Chopped liver?

In the book, Elrond wasn't going to let Aragorn and Arwen get together until Aragorn became king and proved his worthiness. In the movie, he wasn't going to let them get together, full stop. It's kinda no wonder movie Aragorn turned out the way he did, when obviously he lived his whole life hearing how no good he was and how he would never amount to anything.

And then for Elrond to LIE to his own daughter, telling her there was nothing left for her in Middle-earth, to trick her into leaving, when he knew perfectly well that she was going to have a son.

Instead of being a noble lord, he just seemed grouchy and small-minded.

I didn't have issues with Elrond or the Rivendell scenes in AUJ. The feast scene was silly, but I enjoyed seeing Elrond on horseback fighting the Orcs. And the heightened conflict with the Dwarves seemed much more natural than the manufactured antipathy between Elrond and Men in LOTR.

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Aug 16 2013, 4:51pm

Post #173 of 205 (416 views)
umm? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure what that has to do with my response. I haven't mentioned Thorin's appearance at all.

But since you brought it up, do people really think "GQ" when they see the movie version of Thorin? I'm not super familiar with GQ, but from what I have observed, the cover models for that magazine don't bear even a passing resemblance to film Thorin.


Aug 16 2013, 5:21pm

Post #174 of 205 (409 views)
Elrond did not really "lie" to Arwen [In reply to] Can't Post

His "gift of foresight" isn't a view of one certain future, but rather of possible futures, one of which was Arwen's son (and her dying). It works similar to the way Paul Atreides saw the future in Dune. Another possible future was Arwen leaving on the ship. This is why they have the dialogue:

Elrond: I looked into your future and I saw death.
Arwen: But there is also life. You *saw* there was a child, you saw my son!
Elrond: That future is almost gone.
Arwen: But it is not lost.
Elrond: Nothing is certain.
Arwen: Some things are certain. If I leave him now, I will regret it forever.

So he kept the one vision from her in order to try and save her life.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.


Aug 16 2013, 5:24pm

Post #175 of 205 (403 views)
Hairsplitting. [In reply to] Can't Post

He did not tell her the whole truth. To me, that's the same as lying.

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)

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