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New Tauriel Picture!
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 4:23pm

Post #201 of 293 (5593 views)
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I have to dissagree here, strongly. Everyone dies in Silmarillion, regardless of their moral center [In reply to] Can't Post

Or is it that your understanding of good is very different than mine? I'd list every non-Fëanorian Elf (sans Eöl and Maeglin) as good guys, and every human of Edain who isn't specifically mentioned to be a bad apple, aka Túrin. Therefore, good guys who die in Silmarillion, a short list:

Míriel, Finwë, Fingolfin, Finrod, Fingon, Turgon, Aredhel, Finduilas, Húrin, Morwen, Níniel, Brandir, Glorfindel, Orodreth, Aegnor, Angrod, Dior.... actually, let's stop here. i just mentioned Dior. The son of the author's insert character and the author's wife's insert. Tolkien killed his own alter ego's child, and the son's wife. And the son's sons, his own alter ego grandchildren, were left to starve to death in the wild.

It'd be easier to list the characters who don't die. Let's try. Hmm..... Galadriel, Elrond, Elros, Melian, Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor. And out of those, only Melian was a real character in Silmarillion.

Plus the Teleri of Alqualondë and the peoples of Gondolin, Nargothrond and Doriath, not to mention all the other destroyed kingdoms and realms. What did any of these people do to deserve to die?

Basically the entire Silmarillion is like reading a book about Jews or Roma people in the Nazi occupied Europe. You'll all die suckers, 'cause the boogie man is gonna find you all and feed you to the devils. Up you go to the sky in smoke!

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 4:31pm

Post #202 of 293 (5562 views)
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I've read both authors quite a bit.... [In reply to] Can't Post

So I can come to my own judgements regarding their work.

Besides, I didn't say GoT was more complex than Tolkien's work across-the-board, I said I found the characters in Martin's writing to have more depth, and therefore I find them more interesting. If we were talking about history or geography, I would say Middle-earth is much more complex.

And fyi, the title of the series is actually A Song of Ice and Fire, Game of Thrones is only the name of the first book and tv show.


jimmyfenn
Rohan


Jun 6 2013, 4:40pm

Post #203 of 293 (5566 views)
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lecture? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So I can come to my own judgements regarding their work.

Besides, I didn't say GoT .......

And fyi, the title of the series is actually A Song of Ice and Fire, Game of Thrones is only the name of the first book and tv show.


FYI you just called it GOT? why lecture me about the series title if your using the same one lol thanks but i know what its called.

i still think your wrong FYI

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 4:41pm

Post #204 of 293 (5548 views)
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Someone said the finale of LOST should have been nothing but [In reply to] Can't Post

a black screen with a white text scrolling over it like credits. The text would give answers to every single unsolved mystery!

(I liked the ending... mostly because for the entire run of the series I had been pulling my hair, screaming at the characters to get over their issues and grow up. Well, turned out that was exactly what the ending was; they grew up over their personal problems and moved on. It was satisfying, at least to me. Can understand varying opinions too, though.)

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 4:41pm

Post #205 of 293 (5561 views)
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It's been a while since I read The Silmarillion... [In reply to] Can't Post

and I know there are quite a few deaths, so I'll concede that you're correct about "good guy" deaths in the case of The Silmarillion (even though I still never felt any sense of dread like I have for some of Martin's characters). But speaking strictly about LOTR and The Hobbit, I never felt like those characters were in any danger.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 4:44pm

Post #206 of 293 (5550 views)
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The tone of my post... [In reply to] Can't Post

was a response to the dismissive attitude towards my opinion in your previous post.


jimmyfenn
Rohan


Jun 6 2013, 4:46pm

Post #207 of 293 (5556 views)
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jeez [In reply to] Can't Post

thats because i considered your opinion then i dismissed it, are we gonna bat this back and forth all day? you dont have to reply to that.

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 4:47pm

Post #208 of 293 (5563 views)
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That we can agree about [In reply to] Can't Post

If I had the energy, I could link here old posts of mine where I complain about this exact issue. In LotR only real deaths are Boromir, Théoden and Denethor. Boromir still breaks my heart after all these ten years (snif), but Théoden was an old man ready to die, and Denethor was at the end basically a loony with no future. If only one of the Hobbits had died!

You know, I think I'm semi-ready to give GoT another chance. I'm better mentally prepared this time.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

(This post was edited by Faenoriel on Jun 6 2013, 4:48pm)


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 4:48pm

Post #209 of 293 (5548 views)
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Whatever [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 4:51pm

Post #210 of 293 (5547 views)
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I say go for it [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, there's lots of sex and it's not for the squeamish, but there's a reason it has a lot of fans (and we're not the lowest common denominator lol, well not all of us).


jtarkey
Rohan


Jun 6 2013, 5:43pm

Post #211 of 293 (5539 views)
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This, 1000 times... [In reply to] Can't Post

You would think that, from the moment PJ saw Holm in that terrible wig, it would have been modified to actually look like Bilbos hair in FOTR. I know it seems like a small thing to some people, but it's just so obvious and it bugs the hell out of me.

As far as Tauriel goes...I like Evangeline Lilly well enough. I loved Lost, and she is definitely a fairly good actress, so no worries there. However, she already feels pretty out of place, and I'm really worried about how much screen time she will have. If she becomes very intrusive on Bilbo's personal journey (which has already happened with Azog, Thorin, Radagast) then it's going to be a disaster. I don't see the need for the production to create a character they know some people will hate.

It just seems like asking for trouble to me...

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 6:03pm

Post #212 of 293 (5541 views)
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WHAT A FEEDING FRENZY? Reminds Bomby of... [In reply to] Can't Post

"MEATzzz...
Back on the Menu, Boyz?"

"What about them legs
they don't need them?"


Arannir
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 6:06pm

Post #213 of 293 (5521 views)
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Very nice thoughtful post in a strangely aggressive thread. [In reply to] Can't Post

I want to add that there is no point comparing Martin and Tolkien too much. I do not like how they are sometimes "used against each other".

They simply had very different goals and ambitions with their work.


Personally I actually hope the writers of GoT will go farer away from Martin... I am finally through with this book series after ADWD. Sadly. Thought he had more in store for readers like me andmore than his "realism" (lol... rather constructivism). But that is another story, topic and even forum ;)

But if someone thinks there is nothing in HBO's adaption that enrages people like Tauriel or similar stuff does some Tolkien fans, one clearly hasn't read many facebook comments or GoT forum posts. Wink



“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.

(This post was edited by Arannir on Jun 6 2013, 6:09pm)


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jun 6 2013, 7:45pm

Post #214 of 293 (5471 views)
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:) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That's great you feel that way. I just totally disagree that just some interactions between the characters is not depth. That's just story and an average one at best. Tolkiens 3 books is far more IMO and that's not even counting what depth Middle-earth has when you add in The Hobbit, Appendicies, UT, etc. The Lord of the Rings is the standard and Game of Thrones is what you settle for. It's great other feel differently but I don't and ill be honest it's a position I'm not budging on.


I'm reading LOTR again right now Laugh


Elessar
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 7:50pm

Post #215 of 293 (5463 views)
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Awesome! [In reply to] Can't Post

I will be doing the same in Nov/December.Cool



Elenorflower
Gondor


Jun 6 2013, 8:29pm

Post #216 of 293 (5454 views)
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It took me until season 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

to really get into it, but its worth sticking at it. As for the books, its pretty heavy going and emotionally draining so I just stick to HBO for now. I once had a Christmas dinner like one of those books, I gorged on flesh and wine and then puked my guts up, disgusting but strangely satisfying.


aifeme
Rivendell


Jun 6 2013, 9:03pm

Post #217 of 293 (5477 views)
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There is nothing they can do [In reply to] Can't Post

to make Tauriel subplot work for me.


Semper Fi
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 10:35pm

Post #218 of 293 (5414 views)
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I agre, liked Galadriel acting in AUJ a lot, not at all in FOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

She looked so mena in FOTR even before rather ridiculous transformation. I really don`t understand why they opted for evil glares as a substitute for authority. OTOH, she was very warm and regal in AUJ like galadriel should be.

I could live without slo-mo speech, though.


totoro
Lorien

Jun 7 2013, 4:49am

Post #219 of 293 (5356 views)
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I don't want to spoil it for you, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

... the good guys (at least the main characters) don't die.

In Reply To

In Reply To
That's great you feel that way. I just totally disagree that just some interactions between the characters is not depth. That's just story and an average one at best. Tolkiens 3 books is far more IMO and that's not even counting what depth Middle-earth has when you add in The Hobbit, Appendicies, UT, etc. The Lord of the Rings is the standard and Game of Thrones is what you settle for. It's great other feel differently but I don't and ill be honest it's a position I'm not budging on.


I'm reading LOTR again right now Laugh



The Grey Wanderer
Lorien


Jun 7 2013, 5:01am

Post #220 of 293 (5354 views)
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Put me in the "Fan of GoT" camp [In reply to] Can't Post

I read the books before ever seeing the HBO series (which I now am up to date on). Martin's style is completely different than Tolkien's, so comparing them doesn't work well, but contrasting them does. Martin's characters are all shades of grey (well, maybe not Sansa - she is just clueless), though some get rather dark. They do change with time (Jamie being a strong example). Arya (my favorite) leaves quite a trail of bodies behind for a little girl & I sense there are many more to come...and the dwarf, despite being a whoring drunkard, seems to actually have his heart in the right place & I hope he someday gets some respect. And the HBO series is excellently cast, the sets great, and the scenery wonderful. My 24 year old daughter and her BF are seriously into the TV series, so it seems to appeal across age and gender lines. I wish they did more than 10 episodes a year - might put some pressure on Martin to finish writing the books before either he or I die. One thing I have to give Tolkien over Martin - Tolkien finished writing LOTR before he published the first book; Martin published his first book over 16 years ago and he still has 6-10 years to go to finish.

Tolkien's Middle Earth stories are my all-time favorites - but they did catch me at an impressionable age; Martin didn't get to me until I had already become a cynical old dude - but I still love his writing.


The Grey Wanderer
Lorien


Jun 7 2013, 5:11am

Post #221 of 293 (5375 views)
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If you thing Martin is a Sadist - try Terry Goodkind... [In reply to] Can't Post

I went to re-read the Sword of Truth series, got half-way through and decided it was too sadistic to continue. With that to define my scale, Martin is main-stream.


aifeme
Rivendell


Jun 7 2013, 6:12am

Post #222 of 293 (5353 views)
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Correct! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes it was just gross...But he didn't kill most of the good guys like Martin;)


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jun 7 2013, 3:46pm

Post #223 of 293 (5318 views)
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My all time fav author is Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

it got me in my twenties when I was a romantic idealist, now I am a bit older, Martins flawed and all too human characters are very interesting to me. The heros of LOTR like Aragorn, are pretty much 100 % noble, one can aspire to be like them as Chivalric characters, but they lack the visceral punch of Martins 'heros', who are more antiheros I guess. I like the gritty reality and realistic casual brutality, it feels authentic as I am sure life was pretty cheap in t'old days.


Semper Fi
Rohan

Jun 7 2013, 4:18pm

Post #224 of 293 (5315 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien world is beautiful and very detailed but characters are not complex and are more incarnations of good and evil rather than being based in reality. Which works for that universe. OTOH, Martin characters are much more interesting precisely because they have many layers and aren`t clean cut B&W.


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jun 7 2013, 5:47pm

Post #225 of 293 (5290 views)
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I am not sure all Tolkiens characters, [In reply to] Can't Post

are either black or white, because characters like Tom defy easy description, and are enigmatic strange and ambiguous. you can never really tell whether Tom is 100% good or has a dark side, I personally think he transcends good or bad and any shade of grey between, I dont think he would ever think in those terms himself, he just IS. I havent read all Martins books but I dont think he has a character that is so powerfully odd as Tom.
But I agree Martins are more earthy and salty,


(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Jun 7 2013, 5:49pm)

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