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Silmarilion Discussion: Chapter 16 -- "Of Maeglin"
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noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 12:49pm

Post #201 of 381 (4176 views)
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Dossing and faffing [In reply to] Can't Post

Beat me to the definition! and a good one you gave too.

I think dossing also still has the sense of informal improvised sleeping arrangements, as in "it's difficult to get a hotel in Gondor, but I have a mate who'll let me doss down on his floor for a couple of nights."

Cf faffing - a term of disapproval if someone is spending time and energy in an unproductive, perhaps disorganised way. Less idle than dossing: probably lots of activity but ineffectively directed. Often it's "faffing about" as in "I meant to do my tax return today, but I've spent all morning faffing about online."

Or

"If you've quite finished faffing about with bolsters and rangers, just get that Ring off that Hobbit and bring it back here to Mordor!"

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


sador
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 12:51pm

Post #202 of 381 (4165 views)
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In case nobody has noticed [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this thread broke the record for the number of replies in a RR thread! (although I'm no NEB to confirm this). Well done, folks!

Ah, and I'm just testing my new footer...

'But my father loves them,' said Tśrin, 'and he is not happy without them. He says that we have learned all that we know from them, and have been made a nobler people; and he says that the Men that have lately come over the Mountains are little better than Orcs.'
'That is true,' answered Sador; 'true at least of some of us. But the up-climbing is painful, and from high places it is easy to fall low.'

Who was right?
Join us in the Reading Room, for the discussion of Of the Coming of Men into the West, beginning on June 9!

(This post was edited by sador on Jun 6 2013, 12:54pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 12:59pm

Post #203 of 381 (4159 views)
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makes me [In reply to] Can't Post

 
makes me think about "fafnir" in a whole, new light.


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 1:02pm

Post #204 of 381 (4153 views)
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love! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
love that you're promoting the upcoming chapter discussion in your footer, sador! : ) (which i'm thinking is your own? well done! : ) )

re the rest... funny, because i'm such a newbie, and i know the reading room has such a history, i just assume there have been scads and scads and scads of longer discussions like this.

neat! we are certainly a talkative, imaginative, and lively bunch. : )


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 6 2013, 1:03pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 1:06pm

Post #205 of 381 (4166 views)
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We are lively, but to give credit... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
love that you're promoting the upcoming chapter discussion in your footer, sador! : ) (which i'm thinking is your own? well done! : ) )
re the rest... funny, because i'm such a newbie, and i know the reading room has such a history, i just assume there have been scads and scads and scads of longer discussions like this.
neat! we are certainly a talkative, imaginative, and lively bunch. : )




Thanks to you for hosting us with such an insightful discussion!!!! AngelicCoolAngelic Always a pleasure Maciliel Telpemairo!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 1:16pm

Post #206 of 381 (4166 views)
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and lets not forget [In reply to] Can't Post

skiving (skiving off)!

I have been known to faff and to skive off... perhaps a bit too often for any real productive good...


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 1:16pm

Post #207 of 381 (4176 views)
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People who hate look for reasons to hate [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems to me that Eol was bitter and full of hatred, and just looked for reasons to hate. I know people like that in RL: hate their kids, hate minorities, it seems their primary emotion is hatred, and they're always trying to justify it, not cure it.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 1:24pm

Post #208 of 381 (4177 views)
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ah, thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

 
ah... thanks, brethil tengwadil...

but, truly, who could have guessed that "of maeglin" would have sparked such a discussion? not i. i'm just the host of the party, making sure people's drinks are filled and that there are enough snacks on the table.

lively conversations like this are akin to... meeting for a quick drink at a restaurant or bar, and then stumbling into one thing or another until you suddenly realize every other patron has left and the wait staff are standing around and staring at you.

.... and akin to.... meeting up early in the day for maybe a stroll around the neighborhood. the conversation gets going and someone realizes that he or she hasn't had breakfast, so you pop into a diner for a quick bite, which rolls on, then you take a walk out of the diner and head towards the park, with the leftovers from lunch in a doggie bag. you spin such good conversation in the park that you start to get hungry, and you have a late lunch, sitting on the grass, and before you know it.... you've spent the entire day chatting madly and are in a state of buzzy bliss.

btw.... who's hungry? i've got some leftover lembas here, and some apples....

cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 1:30pm

Post #209 of 381 (4141 views)
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But "skeevy" just a bit up-thread was a new one for me (and "head cannon")// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:18pm

Post #210 of 381 (4148 views)
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what is [In reply to] Can't Post

 
what is... "head cannon"?

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 2:18pm

Post #211 of 381 (4160 views)
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Eol and Curufin [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I agree, Brethil, and the way Tolkien wrote that scene was clear to me. So full of anger -- as if he is taking out all of his hatred and jealousy toward the Noldor out on his son. No wonder Maeglin...well, that is for another discussion.
But he couldn't actually take it out on the Noldor, could he? (He does, accidentally, by killing Aredhel). Eol is no match for Turgon and even Curufin (several more blows to his already shaky ego). Curufin twists the knife a little further and deeper by basically saying "I'm letting you go, but only just because you said the name Aredhel."
To quote a line from Firefly "He is a sad little king of a sad little Nan (Elmoth)" (Ok, I might have changed that a bit.)
And I can barely stay awake any longer! I am afraid that when I log on tomorrow there will be several hundred more posts and I will be catching up yet again!




Well to start with, we all know you post brilliantly when exhausted Telain..!

I too find it very interesting that this exchange between Eol and Curufin occurs in such a real-time, snapshot mode, with direct and pointed dialogue. We don't see that all the time, so it gives an intriguing insight to the amount of tension between these two, like Eol mounting up and throwing a caustically polite remark over his shoulder. It also seems to be the proverbial straw, ramping up Eol to even more anger. I see in Arda Reconstructed Doug Kane says that CT detailed in depth the writing process for this chapter in The War of the Jewels, and this is an interesting note on the passage:

"The meeting between Eol and Curufin (if not too long an interruption) is good, since it shows (as is desirable) Curufin, too often
the villain (especially in the Tale of Tinuviel), in a better and more honourable light - though still one of dangerous mood and contemptuous
speech. Curufin of course knew well of Eol's hatred of he Noldor, and especially of Feanor and his sons, as 'usurpers' (though in this case unjust, since the lands occupied by the 5 sons had not been peopled before by the Sindar)." WoTJ

It seems to imply that Eol's hatred of the Noldor is not entirely justified by the 'usurption' idea - it may go deeper. In addition the notes contain references to JRRT's thoughts on the 'darkness' of Eol; it seems in two sketches of his past he was taken by Morgoth and either freed to work mischief or rather bargained his way out...his metal-skills seemed tied to this event. A complex character; and if perhaps he was marred by Morgoth, thus may come explanation (not justification) for his behavior towards Maeglin.






Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


imin
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:20pm

Post #212 of 381 (4338 views)
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Think this might be what they mean [In reply to] Can't Post

 

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/...0120605053758AAeSR3P

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:30pm

Post #213 of 381 (4135 views)
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btw [In reply to] Can't Post

 
.... as much as i'm getting a better picture of eol... i'm also getting a better picture of maeglin.

in my other post i was musing on how maeglin, being half-noldor, might have been, in part, hated by his father (perhaps on a subconscious level).

i'm thinking about all that hate and maeglin's possible inferiority complex and self-hate.... so.... he's in nan emloth, receiving hate and denigration about his +noldor+ side (from dad and probably a bit from himself), and is thinking about gondolin as a much better place where he might fit in, be accepted, and also be turgon's heir (hey! a father figure who might actually treat you well! -- and, yes, i think at this time maeglin was also thinking about power as well).

so, maeglin gets to gondolin..... and.... he doesn't feel he fits in. on the surface he does... everyone loves him, accepts him, they love his skills and gifts and he shares them with others and learns from them as well. they thought his mother was long-lost, and he arrives with her, a splendid addition to the kingdom, and the happiest of reunions. but he's still plagued by self-hatred... this time, towards his teleri side...




[david suchet's hercule poirot voice]

but inside now, this maeglin starts to think, i am unworthy here as well! i am but half a noldo... there is everything here that is good and fine and beautiful and magnificent.... how can the work of my hands compare? i am but one smith, one artisan, one person, how can i compete with the gifts and majesty of so many? also this maeglin thinks, the noldor are so skilled and mighty... and i am but half noldor. and half of me is of a kind that is inferior to these people.

do you see, hastings, how it was with this young elf prince? he has been thirsty all his life for the love and the acceptance and the recognition.... and yet... he cannot drink.

poirot was at first fooled by the fine manners and talent of this high-born prince. but all has been revealed. he tried to fool hercule poirot, but that is not a thing possible!

[/ david suchet's hercule poirot voice]



cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 6 2013, 2:36pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 2:32pm

Post #214 of 381 (4145 views)
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Head cannon (or "headcannon") [In reply to] Can't Post

Turned up in one of Faenoriel's posts on this thread. Initially I thought she was referring to her own formidable intellectual artillery. But when I looked it up it turns out to be a "not un-useful" phrase:

Quote
An idea, belief, or aspect of a story that is not mentioned in the media itself, but is accepted by either the reader themselves or the fandom in general. If it is confirmed by the author of the story, it becomes canon.
In Homestuck , a popular webcomic , many suspect the headcanon that the trolls are carnivores, because of their natural homicidal tendencies and sharp teeth.

Many do not agree with this, but they're pretty retarded to not see that THEY HAVE SHARK TEETH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.

(Just putting that one out there....)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=headcanon


"Find the smoking head cannon" could be a new sport on these pages...

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jun 6 2013, 2:34pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:44pm

Post #215 of 381 (4141 views)
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wow! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
wow, brethil -- what a great unearthing!

the concept of arda marred is a very important one in tolkien's middle earth. before elves or edain or dwarves or pukel-men came to be, morgoth left his taint in the world. not orcs, not lies of malice... the very anima of his hatred and jealousy and destructive nature worked its way into the bones of the earth and the vault of the sky. like radioactivity.

all living beings live in it, but there are probably some pockets of it that are more volatile than others. perhaps eol was exposed too long in such a place, or his fea or hroa was more susceptible.

+so+ interesting as a possible backstory for eol that he was once entrapped by morgoth.]

i'm not familiar with the acronym "wotj" -- to what does that refer?


cheers (and thanks!) : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 6 2013, 2:56pm

Post #216 of 381 (4137 views)
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WOTJ= War Of The Jewels/ [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 3:03pm

Post #217 of 381 (4129 views)
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ah! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
don't have that one (yet). : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 3:07pm

Post #218 of 381 (4119 views)
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I'm inferring Muhammad Alė (the Greatest elf) was a Noldor [In reply to] Can't Post

Makes sense of his lines:
It'll be a swooner/ when I harpoon that crooner/ on that schooner in Tunį.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 3:08pm

Post #219 of 381 (4123 views)
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how awful! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
and yet, how inspired! : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 3:12pm

Post #220 of 381 (4124 views)
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one of the things i find curious [In reply to] Can't Post

 
(besides curiousg) about that excerpt...

if "curufin of course knew well of eol's hatred of the noldor, and especially of feanor and his sons," how did he know?

eol was so reclusive, even with his own people. just how would curufin know this?

theories welcome. : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 6 2013, 3:12pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 3:33pm

Post #221 of 381 (4103 views)
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Chance meetings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't seem a very likely way for the Noldor to know about Eol. Or, as the meme goes
"One does not simply walk into Noldor"
Smile

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 3:45pm

Post #222 of 381 (4147 views)
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Some more background, Curufin and Eol [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
(besides curiousg) about that excerpt...
if "curufin of course knew well of eol's hatred of the noldor, and especially of feanor and his sons," how did he know?
eol was so reclusive, even with his own people. just how would curufin know this?
theories welcome. : )




From the Notes relating to the chapter, some fascinating points: (thanks Doug for the directions!)

"For they* held a constant watch on Nan Elmoth, mistrusting the doings and goings of Eol..." (*'They' are Curufin and Celegorm.)
So there was long-standing knowledge of Eol, and Curufin and Celegorm found him suspicious for a long time. It was through these watches that it became apparent that Aredhel dwelled with Eol, as they espied her walking in the woods at night, and knew well who she was - the distrust may be simply inspired by the difference in Eol's twilight lifestyle and his openly and commonly dealing with the Dwarves, even if we discount the possibly abandoned sketches in which Morgoth had direct influence over Eol.


"An important point not made clear is Curufin and Celegorm's earlier action in the matter of Aredel. She had actually stayed with
them, and made no secret of who she was - indeed they knew her well from of old. Why did they not send word to Gondolin?"

"The answer then to the above question is this: the perils of Dungorthin etc. were universally dreaded by the Eldar, and
not least by the sons of Feanor, to him [read whom] refuge southward into Doriath was utterly closed. It had, of course, been
expressly forbidden by Turgon that Aredel should go that way. Only her wilfulness had done this."

So the Girdle and Thingol's ban, hemming in the brothers, prevents them from sending word to Turgon of the whereabouts of the Lady, even after she leaves them and is 'lost' and then, after many years, is seen again in the woods near Eol's home. In addition, while Aredhel stayed with the SoF, she made her feelings clear:

"But Aredel had evidently told Curufin (and later Celegorm of whom she was most fond) enough of herself, to understand that she had escaped from Gondolin by her own will and was glad to dwell [with] them and be free."


So here they perhaps also had the sense that it would be against the Lady's wishes had they interfered and sent word to Gondolin. "Escaped": interesting word! Her 'flight of the caged bird'?


As to the confrontation with Eol:
"
Curufin also knew that Eol's wife was of the Noldor, indeed he had long known who she was, and now shrewdly guessed that she was [?seeking] to escape from her husband at last." Thus the meat of the disdainful way Curufin deals with Eol. As far as Curufin's motivations, and how Eol is not, at this time, committing any dark acts:

"Curufin could have slain Eol (as he greatly wished!) and no one beyond the few men with him at his camp (who would
never have betrayed him) would ever have heard of it - or much mourned it. In Elmoth it would simply be learned that Eol had
ridden in pursuit of Aredel and never come back, and there were perils enough upon the road to account for that. But this would
have been in Eldarin law and sentiment murder; Eol came alone, on no errand of mischief at that time, but in distress.
Also [he] had answered Curufin's contempt and insults soberly or indeed with courtesy (whether it were ironic or not). Also and more cogently he was one of the Eldar, and not so far as was known under any shadow of Morgoth - unless that vague one which afflicted many
others of the Sindar (? due to whispers inspired by Morgoth) - jealousy of the Noldor."

So he greatly wished to slay Eol - I wonder, jealousy of his wedding Aredhel, considering her marked like of the SoF? Intriguing idea....
I like the notes on the inside take on that interaction - Eol seen to be behaving with decorum (even ironic) in the face of insult and denial of aid from a Firstborn...and also interesting we see the ban on slaying each other coming into play, even tough Curufin could have acted with relative impunity. And even if direct marring my Morgoth was either abandoned or deeply secret in Eol's story, the open marring of the kindreds through the whispering campaign comes to fruition.











Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Jun 6 2013, 3:48pm)


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 4:19pm

Post #223 of 381 (4107 views)
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Eol logic is not the same as other-people logic [In reply to] Can't Post

I really like this imagery. It is moments like these that seem to stop time and allow the reader to think, imagine, get a sense of the characters and the weight of the moment. Well said!


Quote
... like Eol mounting up and throwing a caustically polite remark over his shoulder.


and thank you for the kind remark... It leaves me to wonder if my sub-conscious is just far more with it than my conscious...or perhaps I over-think...no, that's not possible...is it?

So, if Curufin is as nasty as some of the other posts (including what you wrote below and your subsequent posts and Maciliel's) indicate, then just how bad is Caranthir? Shoot first and ask questions later? I am guessing Eol was (for a short time anyway) quite relieved he didn't run into Caranthir first...

I read that Eol's hate of the Noldor as usurpers was not justified from a 'normal, non-Eol' point of view. I assume the reasoning is due to Thingol telling Maedhros et al., that they can have anything that is NIMG (since we are throwing out crazy vocabulary and acronyms -- any guesses on my made-up one?). So, in reality the Noldor who return to fight Morgoth are perfectly justified in settling in the areas they chose.

Of course, Eol's hatred of the Noldor really stems from anything they do, ever. He has remarkable capacity to turn anything touched by them into something to be loathed. I feel the process is something like: observe (admire), twist (rewrite history), hate (and be jealous). I'm sure he does see them as usurpers, but in an objective view, he is not justified in thinking so.

And I do like the idea of Eol being trapped by Morgoth, at least for a time. It makes his whole being seem ... understandable. Not excusable, but perhaps I could scrounge up some sympathy for him if I imagined that as part of his background.




CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 4:19pm

Post #224 of 381 (4088 views)
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Thanks for the sleuthing, Brethil! [In reply to] Can't Post

Those are great finds to shed light on the matter. There's always a backstory to everything in Tolkien, isn't there?

Among other things, this gives a concrete example of how successful Morgoth's dirty war to create dissension among the Eldar was. We read about it in general, and see it in Thingol, but not really anywhere else.

What surprises me is Tolkien ruminating about the SOF "sending word to Gondolin." How does one do that when you don't know where it is? I think it's in Unfinished Tales where the common speculation is that Gondolin is hidden somewhere in southern Beleriand, because the north is more populated and there are fewer places to hide, and it seems logical to assume if you hide from Morgoth, you do it far away. So all this detail about sending word through the haunted land to Gondolin contradicts the hidden nature of the city, including the problem that people discovering it were either killed or imprisoned. But maybe Tolkien only drew an absolute girdle (so to speak) around Gondolin at a later date and had previously allowed for some rare, secret messages to get in and out. Or maybe the SOF had his phone number and were going to text him.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 4:22pm

Post #225 of 381 (4082 views)
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acronym... [In reply to] Can't Post

"NIMG"

"not in my garden"? or "not in my girdle"? or "not in melain's girdle?"

i rather like "not in my girdle" best, as spoken by thingol.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

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