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Silmarilion Discussion: Chapter 16 -- "Of Maeglin"
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telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 2:24am

Post #176 of 381 (4108 views)
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Oh! but this IS the party! [In reply to] Can't Post

(Part of the "late to the party and trying to catch up" subject line that Elaen and I seem very familiar with.)

Trying but failing to catch up and only managing to sit in a corner of the party and toss out half-thought-out thoughts from time to time. I may be overwhelmed, but it is a good overwhelming.

But I promise, if any ruggedly handsome, stocky fellows in long cloaks and mithril chain mail make their presence known to me, (at a party or otherwise) I will happily introduce them to you! And, oh yes, the long, flowing (yet still ruggedly handsome) hair... Shall I stop there?

But since we seem to be rather fixated on it in this discussion thread, do you have a hair colour preference? Wink

For what is worth, I think Eol had dark-ish, rather dull hair. Neither really black, rich brown, nor shining red or gold. Comes from hiding from the sun (good for highlights!) and working so much in the smithy (all that dust!)...

Yep, it is getting late...


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:27am

Post #177 of 381 (4111 views)
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wow [In reply to] Can't Post

 
wow, telain... thanks to you i'm getting a really interesting picture of eol.

1. re the sun... boy, am i glad that eol didn't know anything about the sun = edain (!)

2. agreed, agreed, agreed. it's probably icing on the cake that aredhel is a royal noldo. although, i do think that when eol first saw aredhel, he didn't necessarily know she was noldo. he just saw a vision, which fit very much with his idea of beauty (he loved the stars and the twilight and the night -- she, dressed in white, with her dark waves of hair must have looked very bewitching -- perhaps he was ensnared as well).

3. wondering about maeglin, who is half noldo, living with a father who is continually denigrating half of who he is. the perfect recipe for self-hatred and an inferiority complex. is this why maeglin is an over-achiever?

4. he probably feels the noldor are his artistic rivals, but i get the feeling that he is honestly gifted and honestly inspired with smithwork. it seems natural for anyone who is into smithing to hook up with the dwarves and confer about all sorts of things.


jealousy, rivalry, a feeling of inferiority.

i'll also add to the mix... theft.... the super-race noldor sweep in and start carving up middle earth and mining and building and delving. not only is their arrival linked with the sun, but also with morgoth's new forays. true, they began a bit before the arrival of the noldor, but they began approximately the same time. eol (tolkien states) definitely sees the noldor as thieves and stormcrows.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 2:29am

Post #178 of 381 (4118 views)
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See, we're blaming the wrong person here [In reply to] Can't Post

That little tramp Aredhel trespasses in Eol's nice, happy forest solitude, and when our shy boy gives her the slightest bit of flirtation, she gets all "not wholly unwilling" on him and winds up pregnant, saddling him with a brat. The schemer! He does the best he can to support them, and what thanks does he get? She splits with the kid without so much as a goodbye note, and she probably stole the silverware too. Nobly determined to make amends and save their marriage, he follows her through great adversity, hoping to redeem himself in her eyes, only to get killed by her savage family. Eol is the victim here, it's that White Lady's fault!!

(Remember that 1990s song?
"All that she wants is another baby
She's gone tomorrow boy")


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 2:30am

Post #179 of 381 (4107 views)
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Don't we all know the mythology is written by the Noldor? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:35am

Post #180 of 381 (4089 views)
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+oh+ [In reply to] Can't Post

 
oh.... this +so+ made me smile a crooked, minx-y smile and also made me laugh out loud....

[telain]
But I promise, if any ruggedly handsome, stocky fellows in long cloaks and mithril chain mail make their presence known to me, (at a party or otherwise) I will happily introduce them to you! And, oh yes, the long, flowing (yet still ruggedly handsome) hair... Shall I stop there?

But since we seem to be rather fixated on it in this discussion thread, do you have a hair colour preference?
[/telain]


great aule at his forge! no, no hair color preference.... i'd be fortunate enough to just make a nice, new, dwarfish acquaintance. i'm certainly in your debt.


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 2:36am

Post #181 of 381 (4092 views)
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This post is getting so long [In reply to] Can't Post

it's time for someone to say, "Wait, I thought we were going to discuss Bilbo and Smaug this week. Who the heck is Maeglin?"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:37am

Post #182 of 381 (4090 views)
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didn't they [In reply to] Can't Post

 
didn't they take one of eol's special swords? made from galvorn?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 2:57am

Post #183 of 381 (4084 views)
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and also "wow" [In reply to] Can't Post

re: Aredhel on first Eol sighting. Agreed! I don't think he knew she was Noldo right away, but that's jealousy for you! What you covet is what you despise (did I just reference Silence of the Lambs?! Where is this post going?!) For more on this, see below...

re: Maeglin the over-achiever. Yes, I do think so! And now I am wondering if this has something to do with his lack of voice during the Turgon/Eol showdown. He cannot speak against his father, because perhaps in some (again) twisted way it was his father's derision of his Noldo half that pushed him to excel? And what if Eol is watching him over-achieve and senses it is his Noldo half that is to "blame" for it? That has to twist the galvorn knife that is already in his back.

re: smithing. It is almost as though "fate" keeps dealing Eol a twisted hand. You hate the Noldor? Well, you are going to excel at the one thing they also excel at. Don't like your own people? Let us introduce you to the dwarves (did we mention the Noldor also had rather good dealings with their father Aule?) Your concept of perfect beauty? Aredhel, The White Lady of the (you guessed it!) Noldor! No way Eol is coming out of this without a detour to the trauma centre.

re: Noldor as Thieves. Excellent. Yes, Eol has to be thinking that they've waltzed in and think they own the place. It's sad, really. Because I do think he was gifted as well. But he could not see past the artistic rivalry and perhaps he compared himself to all the Noldor (and therefore sensed failure in himself when he could not measure up in other areas.) Why could they not have just stayed in Valinor? Why did they have to come and take "my" land? A side note: it is interesting to me that as much as he hates the Noldor, he has fled from his own people... And for how much he tells Maeglin he is Teleri, he still won't associate with any Teleri (apart from those poor servants...)

So, how about this little gem:


Quote
...and Eol was brought to Turgon's hall and stood before his high seat, proud and sullen. Though he was amazed no less than his son at all that he saw, his heart was filled the more with anger and with hate of the Noldor.


It is not as if he did not recognise and appreciate the beautiful things the Noldor accomplished -- it's just that he hated them and therefore could not openly accept those accomplishments. And I suppose he wish he had had a hand in them as well.

I know someone somewhere in this thread also mentioned inferiority complex as well as the fact that the Kinslaying hatred never has a good outcome. Absolutely. I think all these things have twisted Eol into something that will affect (In fine Feanorian fashion) more than just himself.

In fact, his desire to keep himself and his "possessions" away from everyone else was probably a good idea. In theory. And only with people who actually want to remain in seclusion. So, actually not good in practice at all.


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 3:08am

Post #184 of 381 (4106 views)
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Not the Greatest, but the Darkest Elf? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree, Brethil, and the way Tolkien wrote that scene was clear to me. So full of anger -- as if he is taking out all of his hatred and jealousy toward the Noldor out on his son. No wonder Maeglin...well, that is for another discussion.

But he couldn't actually take it out on the Noldor, could he? (He does, accidentally, by killing Aredhel). Eol is no match for Turgon and even Curufin (several more blows to his already shaky ego). Curufin twists the knife a little further and deeper by basically saying "I'm letting you go, but only just because you said the name Aredhel."

To quote a line from Firefly "He is a sad little king of a sad little Nan (Elmoth)" (Ok, I might have changed that a bit.)

And I can barely stay awake any longer! I am afraid that when I log on tomorrow there will be several hundred more posts and I will be catching up yet again!


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 3:10am

Post #185 of 381 (4089 views)
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great quote [In reply to] Can't Post

 
great quote, telain --- when i read it in your post, eol struck me as +quite+ morgothian....

[telain]
So, how about this little gem:


Quote
...and Eol was brought to Turgon's hall and stood before his high seat, proud and sullen. Though he was amazed no less than his son at all that he saw, his heart was filled the more with anger and with hate of the Noldor.


It is not as if he did not recognise and appreciate the beautiful things the Noldor accomplished -- it's just that he hated them and therefore could not openly accept those accomplishments. And I suppose he wish he had had a hand in them as well.
[/telain]


that is quite the emotional interior eol has going at that moment.... taking in all that beauty, all that accomplishment, and it souring in a +second+ to utter hatred. i also like what you said re his wanting to have been part of making it. i, as a creative person myself, sometimes feel this way when i'm admiring someone else's work (but +not+ in an eol way!). great insight there.

and, was it you who was talking about the elvish slide to orc-dom upthread? eol seems +ripe+. frankly, if he were edain, and sauron gave him the right jewelry, he'd be the top ringwraith.


cheers ----

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 3:16am

Post #186 of 381 (4099 views)
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i just had a thought... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
not only eol hating the noldor, not only hating that his son looks like a noldo and has many of their gifts... but that he might just honestly hate his son (in part), because his hatred is so deep.

when eol is standing amidst the gondolinish splendor.... how small he might have felt, how powerless by comparison. seeing his son there.... who had to look like him in +some+ way because maeglin was the son of his body.... seeing his own face (somewhat) in a noldo frame.... he'd want to obliterate everything.

eol at this point reminds me of those selfish, abusive husbands (and sometimes wives) who decide if the wife is leaving, he's going to kill her and the kids -- and then himself ('tho who knows if eol would have done that.... he might have just returned to his smithying).


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 3:48am

Post #187 of 381 (4108 views)
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ok -- some gems from morgoth's ring [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I haven't got round to reading Morgoth's Ring yet, so hadn't come across this. Well. I'm glad he didn't rape her, even if the rest of his behaviour was somewhat reprehensible!


for elaen and all and sundry, for your reading pleasure ----


The Eldar wedded once only in lie, and for love or at the least by free will upon either part. Even when in the after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earh became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow... seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them.

Marriage, save for rare ill chances or strange fates, was the natural course of life for all the Eldar... Those who would afterwards be wedded might choose one another early in youth, even as children... but unless they desired soon to be married and were of fitting age, the betrothal awaited the judgement of the parents o either party.

In due time the betrothal was announced at a meeting of the two houses concerned, and the betrohed gave silver rings one to another... this betrothal was bound then to stand or one year at least, and it often stood for longer. During this time it could be revoked by a public return of the rings.... but the right of revoking was seldome used, for the Eldar do not err lightly in such choice. . They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldo swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast.

But... ceremonies were not rites necessary to marriage... It was the act of bodily union that achieved arriage, and after which the indissoluble bond as complete.

Since death and the sundering of spirit and body was one of the griefs of Arda Marred, it came inevitably to pass that death at times came to two that were wedded.... Now marriage is chiefly of the body, but is nonetheless not of the body only but of the spirit and body together, for it begins and endures in the will of the fea. Therefore when one of the partners of a marriage dies the marriage is not yet ended, but in abeyance. For those that were joined are no sundered; bu their union remains still a union of will.

It has been said that marriage resides ultimately in the will of the fear. also the identity of person resides wholly in the fea, and the re-born is the same person as the one who died. It is the purpose of the grace of re-birth that the unnatural breach in the continuity of life should be redressed, and none of the Dead will be permitted to be reborn until and unless they desire to take up their former life and continue it.

Marriage is for life, and cannot, therefore, be ended, save by the interruption of death without return. .... Since marriage is also of the body and one body has perished, they must be married again, if they will [if one or both elves are rehoused in new bodies].For they will have returned, as it were, to that state in their former life when by the otions of their fear they desired to be married. THere will be no question of desiring this or not desiring it. For by the steadfastness of the fear of the Eldar uncorrupted they will desire it; and none of the Dead will be permitted by Mandos to be reborn, until and unless they desire to take up life again in continuity with their past.


sorry, that's all i can clap together at the moment. there's more, like the part that says elves can just look into each other's eyes and know who's married... but i cannot readily find it. perhaps later.



cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 5:28am

Post #188 of 381 (4094 views)
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From our 2005 Letters discussion: [In reply to] Can't Post

The thread regarding Letters 43 and 49.








noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 6:54am

Post #189 of 381 (4071 views)
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Estuary English [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's what the BBC suggests (description plus examples)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1999/02/99/e-cyclopedia/383359

Oxfordshire, where I live is linguistcally a mix: among other sounds, you'll hear some estuary, and the whole range of hobbit accents as heard in the films: Bilbo to something pretty close to Sam.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 6 2013, 8:42am

Post #190 of 381 (4075 views)
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Thanks for this Maciliel [In reply to] Can't Post

Very interesting- thank you so much for posting these- things make more sense now!
Do you think that Eol was more ruled by the physical or the spiritual when he first "desired" Aredhel? To me, it suggests that the physical was just as strong as the spiritual- more a desire to possess her, body & soul. Later this "love" becomes twisted on both sides- if questioned, Eol would probably have declared that he still loved her, even after she had left, and possibly even believed that on one level. But deeper down, he probably recognised the ambivalence and hatred also, even if he would not acknowledge it. The letter that Squire quotes is very interesting as an insight into how Tolkien saw this sort of relationship. I agree with him to a certain extent about women believing they can "reform" a bad man- but I feel it is somewhat of a generalisation. Certainly there is a group of women who end up, sometimes repeatedly, in abusive relationships because they feel they can reform the partner and that he does love them really etc etc, but for sure not all women, or even the majority. Let's say, there seems to be a sizeable minority who get into that situation.

The quotes from MR illustrates TOlkien's idealist view of love, sex and marriage very well. IMO the marital customs and law he applies to the elves are very much how he would like things to be in the real world- relationships based purely on love and a meeting of minds, not lust, no sex before marriage, marriage being lifelong and beyond in both the physical and spiritual sense etc.I suspect this is a reflection of his relationship with Edith and maybe he felt that if all the world were so blessed, evil might be defeated- or at least people might be happier!

Ooh, and totally off topic- I seem to have galloped into Rohan overnight!! Still in the dust from your heels though Maciliel- you seem to have been to Fangorn, Edoras, fought a battle at Helms Deep and ridden to Gondor whilst I have been dossing in Lothlorien. I blame that Galadriel, messing with the time- and she didn't even give me a nice shiny dagger when I left!!Mad

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 6 2013, 8:48am

Post #191 of 381 (4083 views)
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Yes, this is the party to be seen at [In reply to] Can't Post

But the others seem to have drunk all the nice wine, leaving us with the plonk!!Unsure Luckily I've bought some nice Dorwinion stuff of my own! WOuld you like some?Wink You seem to have stayed up even later at this party than me (assuming you are on the Eastern rather than Western side of the Sundering Sea (Atlantic)! Some great points though Telain. Now where did that guy with the impressive hair go?....

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 10:10am

Post #192 of 381 (4076 views)
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That's "not unhelpful" :) Thanks for posting// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 11:20am

Post #193 of 381 (4071 views)
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so many interesting points [In reply to] Can't Post

 
so many interesting points, elaen. : )


[elaen]
Do you think that Eol was more ruled by the physical or the spiritual when he first "desired" Aredhel? To me, it suggests that the physical was just as strong as the spiritual- more a desire to possess her, body & soul. Later this "love" becomes twisted on both sides- if questioned, Eol would probably have declared that he still loved her, even after she had left, and possibly even believed that on one level. But deeper down, he probably recognised the ambivalence and hatred also, even if he would not acknowledge it.
[/elaen]



very much in agreement here, elaen. in posting that section from morgoth's ring, i got a chance to reaquaint myself with it.... and it seems that tolkien does provide for the possibility of elves being ruled by their bodies in matters of romance and love, even if these are ultra rare occasions. i'll have to take another look, because i'm also remembering other passages that seem to contradict each other a bit.

yes, in this context, aredhel and eol make more sense now. i still think that the two had enough personality traits in common that the idea of a partnership/marriage seemed like a wonderful idea. add into the mix that both were perhaps letting their hroar run way with them (which may be said literally for aredhel, perhaps causing or contributing to her wanderlust), and the extra dash of spice from letter #43 (very thoughtfully provided by squire), and we've got --- cliched but true -- a recipe for disaster.

i also agree with your take on eol, that love and lust were mixed up together, 'tho i don't think, had aredhel survived and eol had gone back to his forge, he would have admitted to anyone, not even himself (i get the feeling that he was not capable of such fine-tuned introspection), that he still loved her. and, by that point, in my estimation, whatever good love he might have had had been eaten away by his hatred for the noldor, and whatever lust was left had been consumed by that hatred, and transformed into anger and a desire to dominate.



[elaen]
The letter that Squire quotes is very interesting as an insight into how Tolkien saw this sort of relationship. I agree with him to a certain extent about women believing they can "reform" a bad man- but I feel it is somewhat of a generalisation. Certainly there is a group of women who end up, sometimes repeatedly, in abusive relationships because they feel they can reform the partner and that he does love them really etc etc, but for sure not all women, or even the majority. Let's say, there seems to be a sizeable minority who get into that situation.
[/elaen]



yes, tolkien was making a generalization; i don't get the sense he was saying that this was true for all women, just that it was a vulnerability for many, and a common enough pattern.




[elaen]
The quotes from MR illustrates TOlkien's idealist view of love, sex and marriage very well. IMO the marital customs and law he applies to the elves are very much how he would like things to be in the real world- relationships based purely on love and a meeting of minds, not lust, no sex before marriage, marriage being lifelong and beyond in both the physical and spiritual sense etc.I suspect this is a reflection of his relationship with Edith and maybe he felt that if all the world were so blessed, evil might be defeated- or at least people might be happier!
[/elaen]



yes : ). i very much get this same sense from his writings about the customs of the eldar and their inherent nature -- that what he envisions for the eldar is what he sees as the ideal state for women and men. i love the part (which i may add as a quote later) that he is firm in that male eldar and female eldar are +equal+. and i really get the sense from his stories that he believes it to be so... i just wish more females popped up in his stories, and they got more ink.



[elaen]
Ooh, and totally off topic- I seem to have galloped into Rohan overnight!! Still in the dust from your heels though Maciliel- you seem to have been to Fangorn, Edoras, fought a battle at Helms Deep and ridden to Gondor whilst I have been dossing in Lothlorien. I blame that Galadriel, messing with the time- and she didn't even give me a nice shiny dagger when I left!!Mad
[/elaen]



i'm going to borrow brethil's presentation and thoroughly wish you a resounding, thunderous welcome into rohan!!!!!! : )

i love having galloped into gondor, but i will share that it was very fitting to have me galloping around in rohan, and i loved seeing my avatar above the word "rohan" -- it just seemed to fit.

but you are there now, and i have not long left it, and i have let all there know to be prepared for your arrival, so you will find many to welcome you and much to divert you. spend some time on the open plains, take a trek to edoras and drink some mead at the golden hall, visit helm's deep, where dwarves are right now helping to rebuild the hornberg -- drink the sweet air as it comes to you on breezes that flow both cool and crisp, and flow also warm and soft.

(and, yes, galadriel can be very distracting. very easy to lose time with her -- no shiny dagger?!!! make sure you aren't mistaken -- check your pocketses. : ) )

( --- btw -- what does "dossing" mean?)



many cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 6 2013, 11:23am)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 11:24am

Post #194 of 381 (4078 views)
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many thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
many thanks, elizabeth : )

i'm going to take a look at this right after first breakfast. : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 11:28am

Post #195 of 381 (4059 views)
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will check this out [In reply to] Can't Post

 
will check this out, as with elizabeth's post, after first break fast (or maybe +during+).

a long while ago, i had stumbled on a great section on one of the u.k. news sites that had short video/audio clips on all sorts of different accents in the u.k. it also had a short pronunciation quiz (that anyone could take) that could identify where you were from in the english-speaking world by the way you answered the questions re how you pronounced things.

i don't know if anyone remembers me mentioning this, but i have not a wholly uncasual interest in linguistics. was accepted at one point to a phd program and was thoroughly mad for it (and still am -- i just didn't know how to pay for grad school, i was so naive -- i thought i had to come up with all the money myself).

maybe i'll take a quick pass at trying to locate that quiz / presentation.


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 6 2013, 11:40am

Post #196 of 381 (4065 views)
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Dossing... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah, is this another Brit phrase unknown in the US? It means lazing around, being unproductive. Back in the unenlightened 1980s, a homeless person living on the street was known as a dosser and a homeless persons' hostel as a doss house. Thankfully things are more enlightened on that front now. But it is still a phrase occasionally used by parents to truculent teens not contributing to the household. " You treat this place like a doss house!" as said teenager surfaces at about 1pm!

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 12:05pm

Post #197 of 381 (4081 views)
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more on the eldar, from morgoth's ring [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In all such things not concerned ith the bringing forth of children, the neri [elf men -- note the stem root of "ner" for men; we see this stem in galadriel's mother-name, "nerwen," and also in "nerndanel") and nissi (elf women)., (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal --unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that for the nissi the making of things new is for the most part shown in the forming of their children [which tolkien speaks about in another section as not just being a physical act, as with the edain, but they give parts of themselves in some other way], so that invention and change is otherwise mostly brought about by the neri. There are however, no matters hich ammong the Eldar only a ner can think or do, or others with which only a nis is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar). For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are ammong all the Eldar most practiced by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter as due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special poer that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there as less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals. On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need.

As for other matters, we may speak of the customs of the Noldor (of whom most is known in Middle-earth). Among the Noldor it may be seen that the making of bread is done mostly by women; and the making of lembas is by ancient law reserved to them. Yet the cooking and preparing of of other food is generally a task and pleasure of men. The nissi are more often skilled in the tending of fields and gardens, in playing upon instruments of music, and in the spinning, weaving, fashioning, and adornment of all threads and cloths; and in matters of lore they love most the histories of the Eldar and of the houses of the Noldor; and all matters of kinship and descent are held by them in memory. But the neri are more skilled as smiths and wrights, as carvers of wood and stone, and as jewellers. It is they for the most part who compose musics and make the instruments, or devise new ones; they are the chief poets and students of languages and inventors of words. Many of them delight in forestry and in the lore of the wild, seeking the friendship of all things that grow or live there in freedom. But all these things and other matters of labour and play, or of deeper knwoledge concerning being and the life of the World, may be at different times be pursued by any among the Noldor, be they neri or nissi.



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 12:23pm

Post #198 of 381 (4063 views)
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your thought is a good thought; adding more thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

my apologies for exiting the fascinating conversation last night! So like me to post and run...


Quote
when eol is standing amidst the gondolinish splendor.... how small he might have felt, how powerless by comparison. seeing his son there.... who had to look like him in +some+ way because maeglin was the son of his body.... seeing his own face (somewhat) in a noldo frame.... he'd want to obliterate everything.


I wholly concur. I think at the end, he was so consumed with jealousy and hate (and troubled by his inferiority complex) that ending everything -- and taking all that he held dear (and assumed others held dear as well) with him was the only viable option.

I probably missed this, but has someone brought up whether Eol knew that Turgon would eventually kill him? And furthermore, who were the guards that allowed Eol to "hide" a poison-tipped javelin under his cloak?! That must have been one enormous cloak...

And from your thorough posting of Elvish relationships from Morgoth's Ring, I think it is safe to say that some part of Eol was fascinated by the Noldor (whether he realised that fact or not) and therefore some part of him was fascinated (in a good way) by Aredhel upon first viewing. His seclusion certainly did not help with his people-meeting skills -- not that I am apologising for his behaviour, meeting someone through trickery is still fairly skeevy -- but I think there was some good in him yet. But through (what Eol considered to be) Aredhel and Maeglin's betrayal, all hope was lost...


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 12:32pm

Post #199 of 381 (4055 views)
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counter-thoughts, additional thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

 

[telain]
I probably missed this, but has someone brought up whether Eol knew that Turgon would eventually kill him? And furthermore, who were the guards that allowed Eol to "hide" a poison-tipped javelin under his cloak?! That must have been one enormous cloak...
[telain]



well, he is described as being very tall, even for an elf, so perhaps the javelin was normal-size, and he, being so tall, was able to hide it? but i think rather that it may not have been the really long length we associate with javelins. perhaps it was more like a long dart.

but still...

the purpose of those gondolinish guards was to protect the realm... and they didn't search him (or missed the weapon when they did).




[telain]
And from your thorough posting of Elvish relationships from Morgoth's Ring, I think it is safe to say that some part of Eol was fascinated by the Noldor (whether he realised that fact or not) and therefore some part of him was fascinated (in a good way) by Aredhel upon first viewing. His seclusion certainly did not help with his people-meeting skills -- not that I am apologising for his behaviour, meeting someone through trickery is still fairly skeevy -- but I think there was some good in him yet. But through (what Eol considered to be) Aredhel and Maeglin's betrayal, all hope was lost...
[/telain]



i have these additional thoughts on eol's attraction to aredhel... i think he was very conflicted in a way that might have had little to do with her. perhaps a vestige of the light of aman still clung to her like a shimmering nimbus of beautiful light.

eol has never seen the light of the trees, and he shuns their adulterated and diminished form, the sun (and perhaps the moon as well? we talk a lot about how he was sun-phobic, but he loved the night.... what did he think of the moon?).

so, was he drawn to whatever scraps of the light of valinor that clung to aredhel, drawn to it, but wishing to reject it (as he rejected the sun)?

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 12:36pm

Post #200 of 381 (4038 views)
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why thank you, I think I might! [In reply to] Can't Post

I hear that Dorwinion stuff really gets the job done!

Actually, I am on the Western side, so I cannot take credit for staying up quite that late (as much as I might like to propagate that illusion...). But I am in the northern and far eastern part of that Western land, (it's a geography quiz!) so it was still...late...

And I quite like your take on the hroa/fea question between Eol and Aredhel -- now, I am going to reread that with a (hopefully) clearer head!

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