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Silmarilion Discussion: Chapter 16 -- "Of Maeglin"
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imin
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:05pm

Post #101 of 381 (4074 views)
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Is that not a common word? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:06pm

Post #102 of 381 (4065 views)
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Not in America [In reply to] Can't Post

At least, not anywhere that I've ever lived.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




imin
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:08pm

Post #103 of 381 (4067 views)
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Oh yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

I forget what words are common over there (USA) - thinking back now i used the word fortnight whilst in the US but can't really remember anyone using it.

In the UK it is a common word, used whenever needed, lol.

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:15pm

Post #104 of 381 (4062 views)
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Two weeks [In reply to] Can't Post

We just generally say two weeks. Using "fortnight" just sounds so medieval lol Laugh

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 5 2013, 4:21pm

Post #105 of 381 (4080 views)
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It might not be meant to be a good deed [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien didn't spare the Noldor when idiocy and malice were shared to his characters. Tongue

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:22pm

Post #106 of 381 (4053 views)
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not in america [In reply to] Can't Post

 
not in america, unless you've opened up a book of shakespeare or christopher marlowe.


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:23pm

Post #107 of 381 (4052 views)
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whilst! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
imin gets points for using "whilst"! : )

another great word that is not to prevalent in the states.

cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 4:24pm

Post #108 of 381 (4045 views)
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Probably why people wanted to hear you talk! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I forget what words are common over there (USA) - thinking back now i used the word fortnight whilst in the US but can't really remember anyone using it.
In the UK it is a common word, used whenever needed, lol.




Between you accent and vocabulary to us you sound quite classically exotic! Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


imin
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:28pm

Post #109 of 381 (4048 views)
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Haha on behalf of Brits, thank you :P [In reply to] Can't Post

My dad said it helped him at work having an English accent - people assumed he was clever and made it easier for him to have authority.

At school kids liked it as i was the new foreign guy - the same exact thing would happen if an American came over to the UK - i think it's nice that, that happens.

Sorry for derailing the thread!

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 4:29pm

Post #110 of 381 (4058 views)
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The one "out" Turgon may have in this brutal policy [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that Eol was totally unknown to the guards, was from the Sindar, not Noldor (though of course many Sindar lived in Gondolin), and rather than kill him on the spot, they took him to Turgon for a decision. So maybe the order was "kill on sight," but in practice it meant capture, interrogate, imprison.

Then again, Tuor seems in peril of death entering the secret way to Gondolin, and it appears that only being accompanied by Voronwe kept him alive.

Another comparison of Elves killing wantonly is the secrecy of Nargothrond. Beren has to keep his ring aloft to stay alive, and later when Celegorm and Curufin usurp power, the kingdom becomes even more secretive and deadly to strangers. So Turgon's not alone in this, but that doesn't let him off the hook. How could these people be killing other Elves and Edain, or is that the Curse at work?


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 4:41pm

Post #111 of 381 (4037 views)
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All in good fun! [In reply to] Can't Post

The fact that we love hearing you Brits talk makes me wonder if our old Monarchial instincts are still kicking around...and if we had stayed under the same flag if the accents still would have diverged as much. (Coming out of Noo Yawk, of course, accent is the thing. Would've sounded a bit odd - Heya, howya dooin' ya' Majesty?) Wink And don't get me started on Boston...SmileShocked

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:45pm

Post #112 of 381 (4037 views)
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dunno [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i think it's sophistry to blame everything on the curse.

"help! i'm an immortal elda! i accidentally touched a goblet that feanor drank from and now i'm doing bad things! "

"help! i'm a mortal edain! i was at a bi-racial picnic with a servant of a steward of a marchwarden of an elf lord who once had a conversation with feanor! while i was sitting on the blanket, eating my lembas, the servant's shadow fell across my fork! now i'm behaving like a perfect bounder to everyone!"


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 4:51pm

Post #113 of 381 (4040 views)
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Curse at work...? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Is that Eol was totally unknown to the guards, was from the Sindar, not Noldor (though of course many Sindar lived in Gondolin), and rather than kill him on the spot, they took him to Turgon for a decision. So maybe the order was "kill on sight," but in practice it meant capture, interrogate, imprison.

Then again, Tuor seems in peril of death entering the secret way to Gondolin, and it appears that only being accompanied by Voronwe kept him alive.

Another comparison of Elves killing wantonly is the secrecy of Nargothrond. Beren has to keep his ring aloft to stay alive, and later when Celegorm and Curufin usurp power, the kingdom becomes even more secretive and deadly to strangers. So Turgon's not alone in this, but that doesn't let him off the hook. How could these people be killing other Elves and Edain, or is that the Curse at work?




Potentially, perhaps, it might be a part of the mistrust...but these places are willed by Ulmo himself, to the effect of guarding what ME will desperately need; did Ulmo make the importance known to them in the dreams and the talks, of how these places MUST stand for a certain time?

I don't know, in a Beleriand full of Orcs and Morgoth's mischief, I don't see total security as too much of a bad thing. One or two stragglers to save your whole people - I can see how desperate times might call for such a remedy. Also though, the idea of staying forever in a place of beauty (not too bad...) if you wandered in was put forth by Turgon, so I think that buys him some grace.

Ultimately I just don't see a ton of folks randomly finding the way in...which maybe influenced the harshness of contemplating the penalty; it's not like Doriath where you can accidentally walk smack into the Girdle at any point for hundreds of miles. I mean Eol REALLY went out of his way, and without being steps behind his family he never would have gotten in.

And you're right CG, he wasn't killed on sight - actually was treated quite well until we went all homicidal.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:54pm

Post #114 of 381 (4031 views)
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of course [In reply to] Can't Post

 
of course, there +is+ tolkien's unfinished tale about the elf who used feanor's lint brush (it was one of the treasures brought out of valinor on the swan ships).

he became petty and vain and wound up buying two very small dogs that he married to one another, in a tiny dog tux and a tiny dog gown. that one's for real, and that one's a tragedy.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 4:55pm

Post #115 of 381 (4027 views)
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(*hahahahah!!!!*) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
i think it's sophistry to blame everything on the curse.
"help! i'm an immortal elda! i accidentally touched a goblet that feanor drank from and now i'm doing bad things! "
"help! i'm a mortal edain! i was at a bi-racial picnic with a servant of a steward of a marchwarden of an elf lord who once had a conversation with feanor! while i was sitting on the blanket, eating my lembas, the servant's shadow fell across my fork! now i'm behaving like a perfect bounder to everyone!"




Those Elven bounders are the worst...
Many congratulations on galloping into Gondor, BTW! Welcome! AngelicCool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:57pm

Post #116 of 381 (4029 views)
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definitely treated well [In reply to] Can't Post

 
because he stated that he was aredhel's husband. which maybe should have been the tactic for anyone who stumbled upon gondolin. "i'm glorfindel's fiance! no, really!"


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 5:26pm

Post #117 of 381 (4037 views)
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Is it sad... [In reply to] Can't Post

that when you mentioned Voronwe accompanying Tuor I immediately thought of Doug Kane? I was like "wait, that's not right!" Laugh

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 5:28pm

Post #118 of 381 (4021 views)
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No - that's awesome!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
that when you mentioned Voronwe accompanying Tuor I immediately thought of Doug Kane? I was like "wait, that's not right!" Laugh




Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 5 2013, 5:51pm

Post #119 of 381 (4023 views)
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Not sad at all! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it is quite cool. Heart

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 6:03pm

Post #120 of 381 (4019 views)
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that reminds me [In reply to] Can't Post

 
voronwe, could you do me a favor? i need to get a message to varda about something...


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 6:12pm

Post #121 of 381 (4034 views)
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Doug Kane had extensive personal travel in Arda to write his book [In reply to] Can't Post

he just used Voronwe as an alias.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 6:34pm

Post #122 of 381 (4019 views)
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Just know... [In reply to] Can't Post

that you have officially taken over the name Voronwe in my mind. *Gasp!* What if you are Voronwe! No wonder you know so much about the Elder Days! Shocked

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 7:12pm

Post #123 of 381 (4014 views)
Shortcut
thanks for the gondorian welcome : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
thanks for the gondorian welcome, tengwadil. : ) give me a tour of the place, when you get a chance.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 8:30pm

Post #124 of 381 (4001 views)
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It worked very well... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
he just used Voronwe as an alias.




...he has quite the inside scoop! WinkCool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 8:44pm

Post #125 of 381 (3987 views)
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The Greatest elf is Muhammad Alë, obviously! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

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