Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Silmarilion Discussion: Chapter 16 -- "Of Maeglin"
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 16 Next page Last page  View All

Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 12:17am

Post #76 of 381 (4143 views)
Shortcut
With some other author, maybe. [In reply to] Can't Post

Faenoriel is right, Tolkien's women wouldn't do anything like that.








Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 12:19am

Post #77 of 381 (4149 views)
Shortcut
friends or no [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
[faenoriel]
Because Galadriel hated Fëanor and therefore likely also his Sons, but Aredhel was their loyal friend.

I see Aredhel as a personality well distinct from Galadriel. She has a clear tomboyish feel to her, something Galadriel lacks despite her athletic side. Galadriel is more of a politician, while Aredhel doesn't seem to care of such matters and prefers outdoors life.

Also, I'm strongly against the notion that Tolkien had problems writing females. He created more male characters, but whenever he created a female, he always made her count. His women are so strong and proud and intelligent. Evil
[/faenoriel]



re tolkien's depictions of women.... i agree with you partly.... he was ahead of his time, and created many memorable female characters who were strong.

but there are such a +dearth+ of them, it seems to belie some level of dismissal or uncomfortability. like galadriel being the only female of the nolor to stand tall on the day the noldor debated leaving valinor. he makes eowyn put away her sword and shield for more ladylike, peaceful pursuits. he doesn't even give names to aragorn's daughters, and they're part of the first generation of the newly restored twin kingdoms (tolkien, who has such a strong love of geneology). many females who appear in elven family trees seem there only to bring forth the next generation.

few of them have stories in their own right.. for every galadriel we have a dozen earwens, elenwes, anaires, and whoever curufin married (she's not even named).

we can lay a lot of this charge on christopher, who removed what little tolkien provided in the way of strong female characters and detail (he eviscerated miriel, just about eliminated nerdanel entirely, and findis, finvain, and the third [whose name i've temporarily forgotten] aren't even on the family tree).

and female dwarves aren't even half of the population. which seems biologically unsustainable, given the other details he gave.

i appreciate that tolkien was ahead of his time in many ways regarding the depiction of females. but not in all ways.

the gender imbalance, given the storylines, is a sad defect, of the writings i love and the author i esteem mightily.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 12:21am

Post #78 of 381 (4141 views)
Shortcut
the idea [In reply to] Can't Post

 
the idea of the talking purse being made of galvorn +cracked me up+! : )

btw, i may be one of the few who does not take the sentences re turin's conversation with his sword literally. i take those sentences as poetic device, and do not think that the sword spoke.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 12:23am

Post #79 of 381 (4130 views)
Shortcut
so glad [In reply to] Can't Post

 
so glad you are enjoying it, ltnjmy! : ) lovely to see you. : )

please feel very free to share any thoughts you have. you know you are most welcome. : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 12:34am

Post #80 of 381 (4157 views)
Shortcut
"not wholly unwilling" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
[elizabeth]
I remain deeply disturbed by Eol's seduction of Aredhel. Indeed, I regard it as equivalent to "date rape," wherein A gets B drunk or high until B becomes "not wholly unwilling." The entire scenario is highly repellant.

Moreover, Eol increasingly takes on the behavioral characteristics of an abusive husband, preventing Aredhel from leaving or communicating with her family until she has to engineer an escape many years later.

The "rebellious girl likes the bad boy" image would be more persuasive if it weren't for all the enchantments he used to entrap her.
[/elizabeth]



i think a lot of things turn on the phrase "not wholly unwilling."

in morgoth's ring, when tolkien describes elven natures re love, marriage, etc., he says many things.... i'll paraphrase...

1. elves do not cheat on their spouses, nor do unmarried elves cheat with married ones (it's unthinkable to them)

2. elves can just look into the eyes of other elves and tell who is married and who is not

3. the ceremony does not make the marriage -- consummation does. it may be accompanied by a ceremony or not.

4. elves instinctively are drawn to those who are good matches for them

5. elves do not rape


so, the line of "not wholly unwilling" is really problematic. i wonder about it in both a diagetic way (how all that we know of elven nature, elven love, and elven marriage stacks up with it -- within the story) and an exegetic way (how tolkien might have missed that detail in editing, how christopher might have missed it, etc.)

my take, knowing the answer to be unknowable, is that aredhel and eol were truly in love and truly willing. they had so much in common. they both fled the physically restrictive confines of kings who would fence them in, even if the boundaries were expansive. they did not like boundaries. they loved nature and wandering and exploring. they were both comfortable with feanorian-type personalities, and not limited to being comfortable with just the fingolfian-type personalities.

the problems came later, just like with feanor and nerdanel.

i do think eol's enchantment of the woods so that aredhel would be lost is a bit creepy. but i think the same thing about melian and thingol. but i think all four parties in both cases were... wholly willing.

i certainly do not think it romantic or desirable in any way that eol was such a control freak as time went on (he shares that quality with feanor, and it worked just as successfully for him).


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 12:59am

Post #81 of 381 (4123 views)
Shortcut
sometimes [In reply to] Can't Post

 
sometimes they are (!).


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 1:09am

Post #82 of 381 (4113 views)
Shortcut
prophecy or curse? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
eol was trying to kill his son, not just on impulse, but was toting around a poisoned blade to kill him/aredhel maybe both. a +lot+ of weighty premeditation.

so... he's already shown his prowess with enchantments in ensnaring aredhel to begin with... were his words to maeglin more than words, more that prophecy? were they a curse? to fell him, destroy his hopes for a place in gondolin, to perhaps try to make him the instrument of gondolin's destruction, and the destruction of the noldor, whom he hated?

just musings....


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 2:38am

Post #83 of 381 (4116 views)
Shortcut
It sure doesn't sound like love to me. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
my take, knowing the answer to be unknowable, is that aredhel and eol were truly in love and truly willing. they had so much in common. they both fled the physically restrictive confines of kings who would fence them in, even if the boundaries were expansive. they did not like boundaries. they loved nature and wandering and exploring. they were both comfortable with feanorian-type personalities, and not limited to being comfortable with just the fingolfian-type personalities.


In the case of Melian and Thingol, we have this rapturous meeting: But he came at last to a glade open to the stars, and there Melian stood; and out of the darkness he looked at her, and the light of Aman was in her face. She spoke no word; but being filled with love Elwë came to her and took her hand, and straightway a spell was laid on him...
Yes, there was a spell, but the love came first, and was apparently mutual or she wouldn't have cast the spell; there are positive gestures from both parties.

The meeting of Eöl and Aredhel is quite different: Very fair she seemed to him, and he desired her; and he set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out, but drew ever nearer to his dwelling in the depths of the wood. .... And when Aredhel, weary with wandering, came at last to his doors, he revealed himself; and he welcomed her, and led her into his house. And there she remained; for Eöl took her to wife, and it was long ere any of her kin heard of her again.
Here Eöl is described as the active party entirely, and we see nothing but passive acceptance from Aredhel, apparently due to her weariness, enchantments, and then acceptance of a fait accompli.

Nor do I see that they had anything in common: she was sociable, friendly with the Noldor, and adventurous. He is antisocial, hates the Noldor, and most interested in his metalworking with the Dwarves. Not a good match at all.








Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 5:26am

Post #84 of 381 (4101 views)
Shortcut
the reason i bought up [In reply to] Can't Post

 
the possibility of blond is because he is described as kin of thingol and high kin of the teleri. those of that kindred had silvery hair.

when i reread the chapter, i was surprised, as i had always imagined eol with dark hair.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 5:42am

Post #85 of 381 (4119 views)
Shortcut
eol [In reply to] Can't Post

 
from my rereading of this chapter i have a different take on eol,aredhel, and their relationship.

tolkien clearly describes both in very similar ways. they both are contumacious of authority, both fled protected kingdoms that would have literally fenced them in, even though they would still have had huge areas in which to roam. (see my response to elizabeth upthread.)

also, tolkien sort of created a dilemma here. if eol captured her and forced her to wife, he'd be acting in a way that tolkien stated was impossible for elves. or are we to think that eol was so perverted and crooked that he was the only elf who ever forced another to have sex (and thus become his wife). i think it's pushing it to think the latter.

the meeting was wholly contrived, courtesy of his enchantments, but i think their love was legitimate. aredhel was extremely proud and self-willed. despite being exhausted from wandering, i don't think she would have mated/married eol if she didn't love him (again, see my post upthread re the list of things tolkien says about elves, love, marriage, and elvish adultery).

my take is that she saw haughty, dark, troubled characters (at least male ones) differently. she bonded closely with the sons of feanor (and i find it interesting that curufin at least felt enough of a connection with her to be piqued at eol for even mentioning that he was married to her -- kind of impressive from one of this bunch who were brought up by a father who had wholly negative feelings for indis and her children).

so, i think aredhel saw qualities in eol that others did not, or from which others shied away. but she was not detered.

of course, eol is very feanorian when aredhel wishes to go to gondolin. eol sees this as a betrayal. and the part about putting his son in chains if he wandered away. eol, as time passes, is a control freak, out to dominate. clearly his fea has become warped.

but all that seemed to come about in incremental steps. aredhel definitely does not want to stay with him past a certain point, but i think they both came together from positive emotions. and i'm not in any way condoning eol's use of enchantments.

i wonder what letter #131 has to say about eol?


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 5:53am

Post #86 of 381 (4107 views)
Shortcut
yes, it's odd [In reply to] Can't Post

 
yes, it's odd that she didn't run to any of the fsons; they were her self-professed friends. and surely they would have protected her against eol.

aredhel may be very spirited and strong-willed and "fearless and hardy," but she does not strike me as a great thinker. her will seems to ever be a usurper over reason (or, as stannis baratheon would say, a "uzurper"). she always has to be on the go.

thought-wise, galadriel is the total opposite. galadriel is thoughtful, strategic. she is a chess master. aredhel is whack-a-mole. (tried to think of a better game analogy for the white lady, but i'm rather tired, and it's late.)

let me try again.

galadriel is a chess master. aredhel would excel at kickball, but as she was running towards first base she'd just get a whim to run clear across the playing field and into the woods and keep on running.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 5:56am

Post #87 of 381 (4106 views)
Shortcut
i think [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i think maeglin is another chess master. the chapter notes he worked tirelessly to excel at everything and gain power and influence where he could.

+that+ is never the start of wonderful things, as far as tolkien is concerned.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 5:58am

Post #88 of 381 (4097 views)
Shortcut
fwiw [In reply to] Can't Post

 
fwiw, aredhel is specifically described as having dark hair.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 6:03am

Post #89 of 381 (4109 views)
Shortcut
turgon [In reply to] Can't Post

 
brethil tengwadil, agreed.... he loves his sister dearly, and he's acting emotionally, even though he's also acting as the king.

but what of his decree that anyone who accidentally discovers the path to the kingdom must die? how many innocents have perished because of that? why not just keep them in gondolin? either way, killing or imprisoning, anyone associated with the missing might send out a search party, so i'm not sure killing buys all that much more safety.

and it's incredibly distressing to think that this king, who is supposedly so enlightened, is causing both edain and eldar to be killed. his own, special kinslaying.

or do we think that it was a standing order that never got a chance to be carried out, because no one escept eol and tuor ever found the place?

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 6:08am

Post #90 of 381 (4089 views)
Shortcut
yes, rereads can open new doors [In reply to] Can't Post

 
hanne, hello! mae govannen!

at this point, three different takes on that line have surfaced in this thread.... that the "hope" was maeglin, was idril, and was gondolin.

i'll have to do more considering, but i will state i love the idea it was maeglin, because he has so many connections to the different (and many) peoples of middle earth.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


sador
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 7:17am

Post #91 of 381 (4102 views)
Shortcut
Oh! [In reply to] Can't Post

For some reason, I thought noWiz was leading this week!

Please receive my misdirected apology.



ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jun 5 2013, 10:19am

Post #92 of 381 (4092 views)
Shortcut
What the Udun are elves doing executing other elves. [In reply to] Can't Post

Eol attempting to kill Maeglin is villanous and unjustified, but Eol's death is meant to be justice. But how can it possibly be that or even a righteous punishment under elven law when they know that elven death is an aberration that is against Eru's will. From a philosophical perspective any such execution is formally going against Eru. The Eldar would know this.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 11:10am

Post #93 of 381 (4079 views)
Shortcut
Points clarified Telpemairo...thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
brethil tengwadil, agreed.... he loves his sister dearly, and he's acting emotionally, even though he's also acting as the king.
but what of his decree that anyone who accidentally discovers the path to the kingdom must die? how many innocents have perished because of that? why not just keep them in gondolin? either way, killing or imprisoning, anyone associated with the missing might send out a search party, so i'm not sure killing buys all that much more safety.
and it's incredibly distressing to think that this king, who is supposedly so enlightened, is causing both edain and eldar to be killed. his own, special kinslaying.
or do we think that it was a standing order that never got a chance to be carried out, because no one escept eol and tuor ever found the place?




Firstly - thank you for the clarification on Aredhel's coloring! I shall now picture her correctly!
I agree on your points about Maeglin - premeditation of power is a dire sign in a JRRT work - boding ill, and as he is described closing off more and more from the world the fall in inevitable.

Above, I do tend to think that very few, if any, found their way into Gondolin - ones we do know of are really vastly different outcomes...Huor and Hurin are treated with honor, even given Thorondor Taxi Service to depart...I think Eol stands rather alone because of his murderous behavior, particularly the use of poison. I know JRRT wrote of Gondolin and Earandil very early, in 1917, so I think it had a very elemental importance in the legend...it must remain safely isolated for Earandil to exist and make the journey to the Valar. So I *feel* like in his mind, maintaining Gondolin until its appointed task is done is paramount. As a story element in itself, I do think that with including the option that accidental tourists remain in Gondolin make the execution occurrence rare, if at all...excepting persons with poisoned darts under their cloaks. So I think your question may be right, a standing order but not a daily, common or routinely carried out sort of thing.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Jun 5 2013, 11:11am)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 11:24am

Post #94 of 381 (4092 views)
Shortcut
lost secrets of the ancient masters [In reply to] Can't Post

Very true - we no longer know how ancient civilizations did a lot of the things they did: build the Pont du Gard, make Greek Fire, or make Damascus Steel as you say. Or if we do, its because of scientific and archaeological reconstruction (love those TV programs where they try to make a siege engine or erect an Egyptian obelisk). I think its because such skills used to be transmitted master-to-apprentice and so can be lost in a generation. And a lot of them were trade or military secrets. And a lot of the masters would not have been literate, so couldn't have written methods down even if they had wanted to.

And that kind of master/apprentice cycle would be greatly helped out by immortality, I think.

Our modern societies work around the mortality problem because knowledge is able to be documented and shared with Intellectual property laws to prevent someone simply copying your new steel making method without any benefit to yourself. The idea being that it is worth sharing your secret in a patent, in return for the rights you get over the invention for a time. My guess is that, on the whole we're better off now than then - that is, we can do many things better than the ancients could, though often by using methods and materials they didn't have.


I was meaning to muse that it is often a fantasy/sci-fi difference though: your fantasy hero usually wants a famous and ancient sword, but your sci-fi hero often wants the latest power armour and blaster (with exceptions, as always Wink.)

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 12:05pm

Post #95 of 381 (4055 views)
Shortcut
Thought about options [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What would you have done with Eol?
Temporary imprisonment? Eternal imprisonment? Send him to Valinor for judgement? Death but in a different manner? Rehabilitation?
Also was Turgon's execution cold blooded? As in i doubt he would have been impartial or even coming to terms with what happened so i don't think it can be considered a cold blooded fully calculated, more of a reaction, but i see what you mean at same time :)




...like the ones you list: almost all of which may potentially put Gondolin at risk if Eol (openly spewing venom!) is left alive, which maybe is part of Turgon's decision...but really I think Eol was the cold-blooded one here, and Turgon was reacting emotionally in the heat of the moment. Maybe execution came more readily to mind because it had already been established as a potential penalty for wandering into Gondolin?

(Nice to see you here BTW!) Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 12:50pm

Post #96 of 381 (4062 views)
Shortcut
GALLOPING INTO GONDOR !!!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
(i am galloping madly into gondor, my hooves striking loud, staccato echoes on the smooth paving stones of the white city.... i gallop full-force, spiraling up the tiers of the city until i get to the grassy flat-top of its pinnacle. i look out over the pale, flaxen fields and crisp, cool breezes skip over my shoulders. gondor, i am here !)

brethil tengwadil, absolutely agree that eol was the cold-blooded one and turgon was acting emotionally. still, it's troubling, even if understandable.

i'm still not understanding his standing order to slay all who would accidentally find the kindgom. how does that sit with ulmo, who has given turgon so much help? kinslaying is supposed to be ultra-bad, and yet there's an actual policy in place to have it executed (pun!)I.

it's nice and enlightened that hurin and huor and tuor get a pass... but do we think anybody was executed for finding the place?

also, re fenced-off places.... defense is one thing.... but these impregnable barriers (doriath, gondolin, aman)... do we get the feeling that, 'tho they may serve a purpose for a long run of time, ultimately such severe isolation is a bad thing? all of the elven kingdoms fell.... it seemed they were destined to fall... but there's something particular about the falls of doriath and gondolin, because of these barriers.

i'm thinking in my mind of a dossier on the elven kingdoms, their personality profiles, if you will. perhaps i'll pull that together.

thanks for all your wonderful contributions on this thread. : ) it's easy to see why you deserve your own forest. : )



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 3:27pm

Post #97 of 381 (4053 views)
Shortcut
You're welcome ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad it made you laugh Smile

I think either way is fine, though I do love the idea of a cold, metallic voice asking for the blood of Turin. It's quite haunting.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 3:29pm

Post #98 of 381 (4041 views)
Shortcut
Curse most likely [In reply to] Can't Post

That's essentially what I meant. I don't know that Eol was calling down Gondolin's destruction, but certainly seems to be cursing Maeglin to the same death as himself.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 3:31pm

Post #99 of 381 (4044 views)
Shortcut
Possible, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm as white as they come but have a full-blooded Mexican aunt. We're kin, but don't look anything alike.

I still think dark hair is most likely, especially considering how "dark" everything else about him is.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




(This post was edited by Ardamírë on Jun 5 2013, 3:32pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:02pm

Post #100 of 381 (4053 views)
Shortcut
you, sir, get a pass [In reply to] Can't Post

 
you, sir, get a pass, because you used the term "fortnight."

cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 16 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.