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Silmarilion Discussion: Chapter 16 -- "Of Maeglin"
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imin
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 8:42pm

Post #51 of 381 (4086 views)
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Yeah it was a long shot [In reply to] Can't Post

And the best i had, lol. Tolkien just didn't write that way i guess (watch someone prove this wrong in a minute, lol).

I agree though she was a great character and to be able to influence Feanor must have been quite the elf!

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 8:47pm

Post #52 of 381 (4093 views)
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Tolkien liked women and had a very high opinion of them, it seems [In reply to] Can't Post

His females are both wise in general and know to avoid destructive relationships. If only other fictional females were equally smart! They have a very disturbing and annoying tendency to be drawn to men who are bad, mad and dangerous to know*. Then they die to cause some angst to the said man.


*That would be lord Byron, actually. Cool

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 8:49pm

Post #53 of 381 (4080 views)
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In a world where everyone has loads of names and the loads have names too [In reply to] Can't Post

a person not having a name for 12 years must be the epitome of "wrong".

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 8:50pm

Post #54 of 381 (4071 views)
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I thought last hope was Gondolin [In reply to] Can't Post

The longest-surviving kingdom of the Noldor when the rest were vanquished, and also birthplace of Earendil. But I may have missed something.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 8:53pm

Post #55 of 381 (4078 views)
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I am intrigued by your take on Feanor... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Nerdanel dumped him.

And while we're at it, let's celebrate what a kick-ass femme she was. The only person from whom Fanor sought advice and who could influence him. Had the personality to make her the spouse of the crown prince even despite apparently not being the pretties lady around. Had the spine to leave him when he went too far. Had the figurative balls to stand up to him and demand the twins even at the hour of Fanor's madness.




...and his possible redemption/epiphany had he lived to se the Sun...I covered it in the Chapter 13 discussion, and I brought it up as a rather small minority with a sneaking fondness for Feanor and maybe some slim hope of salvation for him. (Not to jack the thread, but have been wanting to ask you your thoughts...! If you wander three pages back and have any ideas I will keep an eye out for them!)

As for the above: all true. A strong and faithful nature but not a domineering one in Nerdanel.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 8:55pm

Post #56 of 381 (4059 views)
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I thought it was wrong enough, but [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't think of that--thanks for pointing it out. It's even more wrong, isn't it?


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 9:02pm

Post #57 of 381 (4047 views)
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So true [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
a person not having a name for 12 years must be the epitome of "wrong".




and one can't count Eol yelling 'tell *seed of my loins* dinner is ready!!!' Interesting too that the name Aredhel gives him is an outlawed Quenya one - bit of pique against Thingol, for not allowing her through Doriath? ("if Thingol had let me ride through Doriath, this would never have happened...)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 9:05pm

Post #58 of 381 (4048 views)
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El hated the Noldor, but desired Aredhel. What's in there? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is his hate for Noldor born out of jealousy for their might and skill, and his possessiveness of Aredhel a symptom of him wanting to own something of that greatness? Or is it uglier, and he wants to shame the ethnicity he hates by possessing "their woman"? Like soldiers rape women of the countries they occupy.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 9:06pm

Post #59 of 381 (4060 views)
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Eowyn? [In reply to] Can't Post

I could see her running off with a bad boy to spite Aragorn.


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 9:07pm

Post #60 of 381 (4068 views)
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No wonder Maeglin had such a distorted image of romantic relationship [In reply to] Can't Post

when he had these two for parental role models. Creeping and stalking is love!

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 9:11pm

Post #61 of 381 (4044 views)
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Grma? :D [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn is at least suspicious looking, but still undoubtedly noble hearted. Faramir is the epitome of honey puppy darling. She herself is the dark tragic antihero of the romance!

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 9:16pm

Post #62 of 381 (4032 views)
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Excellent point [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
when he had these two for parental role models. Creeping and stalking is love!




A distant father, lack of connection...and as you point out as well upthread Eol's dislike of the Noldor, yet the desire for 'possession' of Aredhel...fast-forward to Maeglin and Idril, and his need not to be 'with' Idril, or to know her or even like her, but to 'possess' her...clearly relationship modeling. Another messed-up dynamic.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 9:34pm

Post #63 of 381 (4052 views)
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A long life in the craft [In reply to] Can't Post

I expect immortality helps a lot if you want to get superexcellent at an art or craft

Quote
From the age of 6 I had a mania for drawing the shapes of things. When I was 50 I had published a universe of designs. But all I have done before the the age of 70 is not worth bothering with. At 75 I'll have learned something of the pattern of nature, of animals, of plants, of trees, birds, fish and insects. When I am 80 you will see real progress. At 90 I shall have cut my way deeply into the mystery of life itself. At 100, I shall be a marvelous artist. At 110, everything I create; a dot, a line, will jump to life as never before. To all of you who are going to live as long as I do, I promise to keep my word. I am writing this in my old age. I used to call myself Hokusai, but today I sign my self 'The Old Man Mad About Drawing.
Hokusai Katsushika

I love this quote for the idea that a master is always improving (and still full of optimism about it in his old age). If he were an elf, we could enjoy the drawings he made when several hundred years old. And he'd still be around to teach the youngsters.

That doesn't explain how elves mess with your head though- their other magical skill in Tolkien and the stories he admired.

An odd thing in fantasy stories: there are often great secrets of craft which have now been lost. As opposed to real life for several centuries where the technology has mostly improved.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowim I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 9:50pm

Post #64 of 381 (4058 views)
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technology improves [In reply to] Can't Post

 
.... sometimes, but lots of techniques have been lost through the ages, like how to make damascus steel.

but i get what you're saying.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 9:55pm

Post #65 of 381 (4051 views)
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Hair and eye coloring [In reply to] Can't Post

Reera the Red (who also maintains the screencaplib) has a comprehensive chart of hair and eye colors for most Tolkien characters, including Elves, Hobbits, Men, and a few other creatures. A good candidate for your bookmark list!








Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 10:05pm

Post #66 of 381 (4059 views)
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The good thing about TORn forum format is that no thread can be hijacked [In reply to] Can't Post

only more subdiscussions made. I glanced the Fanor covering topics on the previous pages, but I personally almost never read anything past the first page, so I'd feel it futile to contribute to discussions already so far back. Therefore, if nobody stops me, I'll share some of my thoughts with you here and now. Perhaps if I find it in me I'll write something to those topics too, if they really still are active.

Obviously, I love him, and have loved for a decade now. But I have nothing against people who dislike him either, and even understand their sentiments. I assume most people who outright hate him do it out of moral judgement, and who am I to judge them for such a correct moral opinion. However, for me it's not a moral issue, but simple appreciation for his basic personality. For he manages to incarnate not only one but multiple of very attractive character traits:

The first two of his major traits are of the kind I admire in a person:

1) I love characters who are searchers. Who have great imaginative powers, and who wish to go further, to know more, to find more, to achieve more. Scientist, artists, philosophers, explorers, adventurers... give me them all, them and their ever active brains yearning to unravel the mysteries of the universe. They have positive restlessness.
2) Secondly I love people who are passionate, who truly care, what ever it is that they care about.

The three other traits are negative ones that I share myself and therefore both connect to this kind of characters and feel for them:

3) Persons who are somehow outsiders in their society. They fail to connect to the people around them, the daily life and the common norms and thought patterns. Or they've been pushed outside the society. Or they have free willingly chosen the life of a lone wolf. This can be both because of some personal problem or because the society is at fault, I connect to both types.
4) People who suffer from the vice of pride, for it's a vice I'm very familiar with myself.
5) People who suffer from dark mind, of anger or sadness, of frustration, of negative restlessness and sense of unsatisfaction.

Of course, of this all Fanor is the king. He's a wonderer and a wanderer, a scientist-artist of the good old Renaissance type... and one of a really shadowy mind. But that for his basic personality. Now to his life and actions. Warning; head canon is in heavy use here.

I believe Fanor was quite simply spoiled rotten, and yet suffered from Inferiority Superiority Complex: http://tvtropes.org/...tySuperiorityComplex (I've forgotten how to insert links into words here...) Because of the loss of his mother, he felt insecurity about Finw's continued love and presence in his life, and therefore clung to him. Yet he was aware he was the reason for Finw's suffering, and that there was something wrong with him. about him - that he had disturbed Finw's life and failed to be what a child is supposed to be - the fulfillment of martial love. Since early age he was continuously praised for his skill, and he started to confuse this praise for love and appreciation. He both felt insecure about himself and his closest personal relationship, and developed sense of superiority, perhaps partially to compensate that insecurity. He also failed to learn that negative feedback isn't a question of condemning him as a person.

Now this is very head canon-y, but I've long suspected Fanor felt very deeply threatened by Finw's new marriage because he saw in it the successful marriage Mriel had failed to give Finw, and in their children the successful children he himself had failed to be. Indis didn't die and made Finw happy. Their children were good mooded, well behaving, problem free... The ideal nuclear family! Fingolfin was the worst offender, because Fingolfin was so damn perfect.

Okay, let's cut it short.

I don't know how things had changed had his actions been different before the word of Finw's death came. I don't know anything. But I do tend to believe he will find his salvation and be part of the recreation of Arda. If for nothing else, for Eru's glory. Ilvatar isn't exactly similar to the Abrahamic God he's modeled after, but this much he should resemble his inspiration, that he can undo such apparent mockery of his creation and change an Elf's heart, when that Elf is given thousands and thousands and thousands of years time to contemplate.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 10:07pm

Post #67 of 381 (4054 views)
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She's his wife now. [In reply to] Can't Post

Laws and Customs of the Eldar makes it clear that once intercourse has occurred Elves are permanently married. So she wouldn't feel entitled to just move on, until life became so unendurable that she got desperate.








Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 10:18pm

Post #68 of 381 (4034 views)
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Because I'm denied from editing that post, children are now products of martial love [In reply to] Can't Post

Could be worse, I guess...

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

(This post was edited by Faenoriel on Jun 4 2013, 10:19pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 10:21pm

Post #69 of 381 (4035 views)
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Awesome. I loved reading this. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Obviously, I love him, and have loved for a decade now. But I have nothing against people who dislike him either, and even understand their sentiments. I assume most people who outright hate him do it out of moral judgement, and who am I to judge them for such a correct moral opinion. However, for me it's not a moral issue, but simple appreciation for his basic personality. For he manages to incarnate not only one but multiple of very attractive character traits:
1) I love characters who are searchers. Who have great imaginative powers, and who wish to go further, to know more, to find more, to achieve more. Scientist, artists, philosophers, explorers, adventurers... give me them all, them and their ever active brains yearning to unravel the mysteries of the universe. They have positive restlessness. 2) Secondly I love people who are passionate, who truly care, what ever it is that they care about. That's what I see in Feanor as well; I myself am drawn to such characters and one with the fire in his soul, such an Feanor, layered with complexity.

3) Persons who are somehow outsiders in their society. They fail to connect to the people around them, the daily life and the common norms and thought patterns. Or they've been pushed outside the society. Or they have free willingly chosen the life of a lone wolf. This can be both because of some personal problem or because the society is at fault, I connect to both types.
4) People who suffer from the vice of pride, for it's a vice I'm very familiar with myself.
5) People who suffer from dark mind, of anger or sadness, of frustration, of negative restlessness and sense of unsatisfaction.
All true about who he is, although I think the reason I feel so much hope for him, as you say, in the second Creation is that the circumstances that created his lack of connection with the world (and thus his ability, I think to be satisfied by it, turning to his inner fair - creation - for his only satisfaction) were not of his making. The marring of Arda and Miriel's choice - none of which Feanor had control over, and those situations I feel made the Elf.

Of course, of this all Fanor is the king. He's a wonderer and a wanderer, a scientist-artist of the good old Renaissance type... and one of a really shadowy mind. But that for his basic personality. Now to his life and actions. Warning; head canon is in heavy use here.
I believe Fanor was quite simply spoiled rotten, and yet suffered from Inferiority Superiority Complex:
http://tvtropes.org/...tySuperiorityComplex (I've forgotten how to insert links into words here...) Because of the loss of his mother, he felt insecurity about Finw's continued love and presence in his life, and therefore clung to him. Yet he was aware he was the reason for Finw's suffering, and that there was something wrong with him. about him - that he had disturbed Finw's life and failed to be what a child is supposed to be - the fulfillment of martial love. Love this point. Especially since there was no secret to the reason for Miriel's departure; unintended as it may have been, it put Feanor straight in the crosshairs as the reason for the loss of the mother and the marriage. Since early age he was continuously praised for his skill, and he started to confuse this praise for love and appreciation. He both felt insecure about himself and his closest personal relationship, and developed sense of superiority, perhaps partially to compensate that insecurity. He also failed to learn that negative feedback isn't a question of condemning him as a person. Now this is very head canon-y, but I've long suspected Fanor felt very deeply threatened by Finw's new marriage because he saw in it the successful marriage Mriel had failed to give Finw, and in their children the successful children he himself had failed to be. Indis didn't die and made Finw happy. Their children were good mooded, well behaving, problem free... The ideal nuclear family! Fingolfin was the worst offender, because Fingolfin was so damn perfect. I never took the analogy this far, as to the root cause of the jealousy - it makes a lot of sense what you put forth here, that it arises from that insecurity and sense of loss. Especially surrounded by such perfection. I hope dearly for redemption and happiness for him someday. Thanks Faenoriel!!!!! Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 10:31pm

Post #70 of 381 (4031 views)
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At your service! *deep bow* // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 10:36pm

Post #71 of 381 (4042 views)
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Gondolin in general, and Idril in particular. [In reply to] Can't Post

The sentence is a little convoluted, but I can't imagine that Tolkien actually meant that Maeglin was the "last hope of the Noldor."








Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 11:50pm

Post #72 of 381 (4016 views)
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was thinking along similar lines... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
hi faenoriel : )

[faenorial]
Perhaps Maeglin could have functioned as an instrument for peace between Noldor, Sindar, Avari and Dwarves, considering he had connections to them all? Had he not become a traitor and had Turgon died, would the throne of the High King fallen to him or Gil-Galad?
[/faenoriel]

clearly, i was thinking along similar lines. what a special position maeglin held -- part noldor, heir/likely heir to turgon, part teleri, part moriquendi (and +how+), friends with dwarves, fantastically talented +and+ capable of capturing hearts and minds with powerful oration. the only thing missing is the edain.

interesting re gil-galad... fwiw... i always thought that galadriel should be considered high queen over gil-galad.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 4 2013, 11:50pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 11:57pm

Post #73 of 381 (4009 views)
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aredhel's transgressions [In reply to] Can't Post

 
[faenoriel]
In other matters too I'd be unwilling to condemn Aredhel. What did she do wrong, exactly? She's an adult woman, of course she has the right to go where she wishes and meet whom she wants. Turgon's kingship doesn't extend outside his realm, nor into Aredhel personal life.
[/faenoriel]


agreed, basically. i don't view aredhel as doing anything wrong, necessarily. i do think she treated turgon with a bit of haughtiness. turgon is the king and the king made the rule about the hidden kingdom (no outsies). it's unclear whether anyone had a choice in going, and perhaps that would temper things. but if everyone went with open eyes, knowing that this is the rule... well, that's the rule, and it was enacted to keep every single soul in the kingdom safe.

so, she's not wrong, but she was risking the safety of the kingdom. and turgon's fears were well-founded, as eol tracked her without her noticing.

re what authority a king has over his subjects when they are outside the kingdom... if they renounce his kingship, then all bets are off. but one might still be considered the subject of a king and subject to his laws even if you're in another kingdom (e.g., the king forbids a subject from disclosing the secret location, the king forbids the language of the noldor from being spoken by any of his people, no matter where they are).


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 12:01am

Post #74 of 381 (4011 views)
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Neat! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Reera the Red (who also maintains the screencaplib) has a comprehensive chart of hair and eye colors for most Tolkien characters, including Elves, Hobbits, Men, and a few other creatures. A good candidate for your bookmark list!




Very cool - bookmarked it! Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 12:02am

Post #75 of 381 (4005 views)
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curufin's generosity [In reply to] Can't Post

 
[faenoriel]
This scene was to be where Curufin spares El's life. The reason for Curufin to kill him was of course that El more or less kidnapped his dear cousin and held her prisoner in a somewhat abusive marriage, from which she had to escape. Curufin could have killed El, and because he was accompanied only by his own loyal servants, he wouldn't have faces any consequences. But he let El live, because killing him would have been a murder.
[/faenoriel]

haven't read all of home, but by the customs of the eldar, aredhel and eol were married, and tolkien also states (in morgoth's ring) that elves don't cheat on their spouses, and don't rape, etc. so, as far as curufin knew, aredhel and eol had loved and perhaps still loved, and that aredhel had willingly taken eol as a husband. it seems more than rude to tell your brother-in-law that you wish to kill him, but can't, because it wouldn't be polite.

agreed re the uneasiness surrounding eol's death, even though he was an absolute murderer.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

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