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Silmarilion Discussion: Chapter 16 -- "Of Maeglin"

Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 3:28pm

Post #1 of 381 (7999 views)
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Silmarilion Discussion: Chapter 16 -- "Of Maeglin" Can't Post

 
Fellowship of the Room, apologies for posting this on a Tuesday, when it would have been my wish to post on a Sunday. I have been rushed and without air-conditioning in 95-102 degree heat, so some flairs for presentation did not make it into the mix this time. Hope you enjoy, nonetheless.

Lots of things (+lots+ of things and themes) going on in this chapter! Sons of Feanor? Check. Magical Elvish powers? Check. Dwarves? Check. Murder? Check. A rare glance at a more fully fleshed out female character? Check. Political strife? Check. I could go +on+ and on and on.

Ok, let's dive in. The waters are deep and cold and refreshing, and sparkle like the eyes of the Noldor themselves...


Cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 3:28pm

Post #2 of 381 (7406 views)
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Elven Powers [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Elven Powers
"...and he [Eol] devised a metal as hard as the steel of the Dwarves, but so malleable he could make it thin and supple; and yet it remained resistant to all blades and darts. He named it galvorn..."


"And it came to pass that he saw Aredhel Ar-Feniel, as she strayed beneath the tall trees near the borders of Nan Emloth, a gleam of white in the dim land. Very fair she seemed to him, and he desired her; and he set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out."
"And when Aredhel, weary with wandering, came at last to his doors, he revealed himself; and he welcomed her, and led her into his house."


"For by no means would his mother reveal to Maeglin where Turgon dwelt, nor by what means one might come thither, and he bided his time, trusting yet to wheedle the secret from her, or perhaps to read her unguarded mind..."


1. Is Eol's invention of galvorn an accommplishment soley based on technology and skill, or is there some Elvish "magic" at work? Remember, Tolkien has stated that the magic of the Eldar is something that is just innate to their being.

2. Eol uses enchantment not on stones or steel, or tree or twig, but to snare a sentient being: Aredhel. Is this unusual? Is this misguided? Is this an example of seeking to dominate, of seeking power over another, and thus the seeds of destruction are born? Melain uses her Girdle to ensnare and confuse; it seems Eol did something similar. Is the Girdle of Eol a thing bad, or a thing good, or a thing neutral?

3. Maeglin knows he has at least a chance of reading his mother's mind. Elvish powers? Or just Maeglin powers? Galadriel was said to have this gift as well. Is this an unusual gift? A gift many might have, with greater or lesser skill? If many or most have a shot of reading the minds of others, does it force people to be more honest, knowing hiding the truth might be difficult? What about in real life? We Edain can often tell when actions or gestures or expressions are hiding true intent, even if we can't literally read minds. Does this force us to be more honest, or has it compelled us to be greater dissemblers?


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 3:41pm

Post #3 of 381 (7343 views)
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Just Who is the Greatest Elf Again? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Just Who is the Greatest Elf Again?

"Then he called him Maeglin, which is Sharp Glance, for he perceived that the eyes of his son were more piercing than his own and his thought

could read the secrets of hearts beyond the mists of words."

"As Maeglin grew to full stature he resembled in face and form rather his kindred of the Noldor, but in mood and mind he was the son of his

father. His words were few save in matters that touched him near, and then his voice had a power to move those that heard him and to overthrow

those that withstood him."

"He was tall and black-haired; his eyes were dark, yet bright and keen as the eyes of the Noldor, and his skin was white."
"What hope is there in this wood for you or me? Here we are held in bondage, and no profit shall I find here; for I have learned all that my

father has to teach, or what the Naugrim will reveal to me."

"But Maeglin prospered and grew great among the Gondolindrim, praised by all, and high in the favor of Turgon; for if he would learn eagerly and

swiftly all that he might, he had much to teach. And he gathered about him all such as had bent to smmithcraft and mining; and he sought in the

Echoriath..., and found rich loads of ore and divers metals. Most he prized the hard iron of the mine of Anghabar...so that the arms of the

Gondolindrim were made ever stronger and more keen...Wise was Maeglin in council, and wary, and yet hardy and valiant at need....and proved fell

and fearless in battle."

"Thus all seemed well with the fortunes of Maeglin, who had risen to be mighty among the princes of the Noldor, and greatest save one in the most

renowned of their realms...Idril loved Maeglin not at all; and knowing his thought of her she loved him the less. For it seemed to her a thing

strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed it; an evil fruit of the Kinslaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of

Mandos fell upon the last hope of the Noldor."



1. Is Maeglin a stand-in for Feanor? He seems almost a reincarnation. Feanor's eyes were said to be blue, I believe, and Maeglin's were said to be dark -- but dark could be their value (think light blue/dark blue), or they could be green. Tolkien speaks of Elves and Edain having blue or grey eyes, but it should be noted that Germanic populations (which partly inspired his world) have one of the highest concentrations of green eyes in the world). But I digress with the eye color. Maeglin shares so much with Feanor -- appearance, love of the activities associated with Aule, thirst for knowledge, great orator, keen observor, lust for greatness and achievement, fiercely fell in battle.

2. Is this repetition of Feanorian qualities in one character a boring redux? Or is Maeglin different enough to make it interesting?

3. +So+ interesting that Tolkien writes that Maeglin was the "last hope of the Noldor." Is this classic Tolkien hyperbole? Or was this very conciously done, considering the strong parallels between Maeglin and Feanor? And what could have become of that hope anyway? There was still an un-overthrowable Vala to the north. Or did Tolkien mean something different? Was there potential in Maeglin (with so many Feanorian qualities) to bring healing and renewal as the Oath of Feanor brought destruction? Maeglin also forged (pun!) alliances with Dwarves. They would have been more powerful allies, had their purposes and those of the Eldar been more closely aligned. Could that also been part of the hope that was symbolized by Maeglin?


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 3:49pm

Post #4 of 381 (7329 views)
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Friends of the Sons of Feanor [In reply to] Can't Post

Friends of the Sons of Feanor

"My heart desires rather to find the sons of Feanor, my friends of old."

Aredhel spent a lot of time in Valinor with the Sons of Feanor. She counts enough of them as friends to lump them in a group, rather than just "I want to see my friend, Celegorm." She doesn't seem phased by the Oath or by the Kinslaying (perhaps because her brother, Fingon, and her father, Fingolfin, were among the slayers of kin).


1. Does this mean there's more that is worthy and good among the sons of Feanor? Or does it imply that Aredhel may be noble, but not so good, discerning, or empathetic?

2. It's really striking how the Kinslaying doesn't seem to come into play for her. Is she insensitive? She certainly does seem haughty, even to her own brother, Turgon. Is she more vulnerable to the effects of the Oath because of her previous bonds with the sons of Feanor? Why does the Kinslaying and the Oath (which has the whole Doom of Mandos attached to it) not bother her enough so that she keeps her distance from the sons of Feanor?


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 4 2013, 3:50pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 3:55pm

Post #5 of 381 (7322 views)
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Eol -- A Dark, Blond Elf? [In reply to] Can't Post

Eol -- A Dark, Blond Elf?

"Of old he was the kin of Thingol, but he was restless and ill at ease in Doriath, and when the Girdle of Melian was set about the Forest of Region where he dwelt he fled thence to Nan Emloth."

"But Eol...was...a tall Elf of a high kin of the Teleri, noble though grim of face ; and his eyes could see deep into shadows and dark places."


1. Eol is constantly referred to as the "Dark Elf," but is that more a reflection of his moriquendi status and his shunning of the sun (which he may associate with the trouble-making, trouble-bringing Noldor), than of his physical appearance?

2. Eol is referred to as "high kin" of the Teleri and kin of Thingol. I'm thinking that he may indeed have been of lighter coloring, rather than raven-haired (which I associate with Aredhel). Thoughts?


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 4:05pm

Post #6 of 381 (7336 views)
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Killer Elves or the Curse at Work? [In reply to] Can't Post

Killer Elves or the Curse at Work?

[Curufin to Eol] "By the laws of the Eldar I may not slay you at this time."

"Lord... the guard have taken captive one that came by steath to the Black Gate. Eol he names himself.... we have not slain him as your law commands."

"Suddenly, swift as a serpent, he seized a javelin that he held hid beneath his cloak and cast it at Maeglin, crying: 'The second choice I take and for my son also!'"

"...when Eol was brought before TUrgon he found no mercy; and they led him forth to the Caragdur, a precipice of black rock upon the north side of the hill of Gondolin, there to cast him down from the sheer walls of the city."




1. For enightened beings, there sure is a lot of killing and threat of killing going on -- often for little reason (see Curufin's thwarted threat to kill Eol, for no reason than Eol just knocked on his door; but perhaps we judge Curufin too harshly -- perhaps Eol was always showing up in the middle of the night with pamphlets about some cause or another, or was trying to sell cookware made from galvorn). Is this murderous and near murderous pattern an abberation? Do you find this shocking, coming from Elves? When Morgoth was killing and disturbing things in Arda, the Valar at first locked him up. Is it ill-advised to do what the Valar would not? Take a life (which is what brought the Doom of Mandos upon them in the first place)?

2. Eol is killed after Aredhel dies from her poisoned wound. Was Turgon justified in killing Eol, knowing that Aredhel was immortal, and would likely be released from the Halls of Mandos?

3. Is the killing of Eol a slightly more than meaningless sentance, considering that he, too, is immortal?




.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 4 2013, 4:07pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 4:17pm

Post #7 of 381 (7325 views)
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Parallels --Aredhel and Galadriel [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Parallels --Aredhel and Galadriel

Some Aredhel quotes and observations:

"I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me. And if you begrudge me an escort, I will go alone."

"fearless and hardy"

"But she wearied of the guarded city of Gondolin, desiring ever the longer the more to ride again in the wide lands and to walk in the forests, as had been her wont in Valinor."

"There for a while she was content, and had great joy in wandering free in the woodlands; but as the year lengthened and Celegorm did not return, she became restless again, and took to riding alone ever further abroad, seeking for new paths and untrodden glades."



A lot of this could also describe Galadriel, her cousin. Both want to seek the wide lands. Aredhel wishes to wander and explore. Galadriel, too, with the addition of governing them. They are both proud, and are authority-buckers.



1. Is Aredhel a pale imitation of Galadriel? Or does she have her own, distinct personality? Do you think they were close, having such similar personalities? Interesting... when Aredhel finally gets out of Gondolin, and even arrives at the borders of Doriath, she doesn't inquire whether her cousin Galadriel might be staying there. We know Galadriel was hanging out for a long while in Doriath.... was she there at the time of Aredhel's arrival?

2. A friendship would seemed most natural between Aredhel and Galadriel. Why isn't this described? Is it because Tolkien had some weaknesses with writing female characters? To describe two of them as having a strong bond of friendship and conversations seems natural in reality but is absent in his writings (the closest we get are some lines between Melian and Galadriel). Or do you think they would not have gotten on? Both too proud, too similar?


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 4 2013, 4:17pm)


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 4:25pm

Post #8 of 381 (7339 views)
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Elves don't make difference between magic and science [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as I know and recall, at least. They don't possess that many abilities which we humans wouldn't, only theirs are stronger and purer. Their "magic" seems mostly be mental; illusions, visions, telepathy. When it comes to making physical objects, it's usually simply so well done it seems like magic to us who don't understand how they function. Our computers would surely seem like magic to people of pre-20th century.

Based on this, I'd galvorn is a result of technology and science, not supernatural powers. Compare it to the "magical" Elven rope of Lothlórien, which the local Elves assumed Sam could learn to make if they teached him.

And before someone points it out, yes, I do realize enchantment and enchanted objects exist in M-E.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 4:35pm

Post #9 of 381 (7319 views)
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Maeglin has a clear Fëanorian connection, but [In reply to] Can't Post

you could also say Fëanor and Maeglin are incarnations of the same reoccurring "great magical smith" theme, and thus equals. In this they're accompanied by myriad of other characters from Aulë to Telchar and Saruman. I wouldn't call it boring, but then again I'm biased because I love the smith motif. And especially one of them... Heart

I didn't remember Tolkien called Maeglin the last hope of the Noldor. That is indeed very interesting. Perhaps Maeglin could have functioned as an instrument for peace between Noldor, Sindar, Avari and Dwarves, considering he had connections to them all? Had he not become a traitor and had Turgon died, would the throne of the High King fallen to him or Gil-Galad?

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

(This post was edited by Faenoriel on Jun 4 2013, 4:35pm)


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 4:44pm

Post #10 of 381 (7303 views)
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The animosity the Kinslaying caused is never shown as a positive effect [In reply to] Can't Post

"Death is the reward of sin", not simply because justice will have you, but because ill deeds naturally lead to ill consequences. The Fëanorians did something incredibly wrong, and that's why the others won't trust them. This strife and unforgivance prevents Morgoth's enemies from gathering their full strength into a functional alliance.

In that light, I've never seen Aredhel's friendship with the Sons to be a sign of ill nature. Was Fingon's continued loyalty to Maedhros wrong? No, it was celebrated as a sign of a true, noble heart that cannot be poisoned by the enemy's lies, and the actions born from that one sided loyalty were beneficial. So I'd say Aredhel is simply that strong and true at heart.

In other matters too I'd be unwilling to condemn Aredhel. What did she do wrong, exactly? She's an adult woman, of course she has the right to go where she wishes and meet whom she wants. Turgon's kingship doesn't extend outside his realm, nor into Aredhel personal life.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 4:56pm

Post #11 of 381 (7348 views)
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About Curufin and Eöl and the time Tolkien failed [In reply to] Can't Post

In HoME you can read about Tolkien feeling the Sons (especially Curufin and Celegorm) appear too villainous without redeeming qualities, because the readers mostly see them in Lay of Leithian where they are the antagonists. For this Tolkien wished to write a scene where Curufin would get to show his more noble side that reminds the reader he's still a Noldorin prince.

This scene was to be where Curufin spares Eöl's life. The reason for Curufin to kill him was of course that Eöl more or less kidnapped his dear cousin and held her prisoner in a somewhat abusive marriage, from which she had to escape. Curufin could have killed Eöl, and because he was accompanied only by his own loyal servants, he wouldn't have faces any consequences. But he let Eöl live, because killing him would have been a murder.


As for Aredhel's death and Eöl's punishment, I wouldn't take the nature of Elven death and immortality into consideration. Eöl wished her all harm, and she was violently removed from her physical body, and the lives of the people she loved. Dying is unnatural and grievous to Elves, and to those left behind.

However, I've always felt uneasy about Eöl's death. I'm against death sentence IRL so that might have something to do with it. But somehow it seems so brutal for Elves to throw other Elves off cliffs. And there's the matter that Eöl was judged and condemned by the brother of his victim. My modern western sense of justice would require an unbiased, fair trial, not what amounts to a personal revenge.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 5:01pm

Post #12 of 381 (7313 views)
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Aredhel and Galadriel were hardly friends [In reply to] Can't Post

Because Galadriel hated Fëanor and therefore likely also his Sons, but Aredhel was their loyal friend.

I see Aredhel as a personality well distinct from Galadriel. She has a clear tomboyish feel to her, something Galadriel lacks despite her athletic side. Galadriel is more of a politician, while Aredhel doesn't seem to care of such matters and prefers outdoors life.

Also, I'm strongly against the notion that Tolkien had problems writing females. He created more male characters, but whenever he created a female, he always made her count. His women are so strong and proud and intelligent. Evil

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 5:05pm

Post #13 of 381 (7311 views)
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Love this chapter! [In reply to] Can't Post

One of my absolute favorites. I love the more narrowed focus on just a few characters. Also, this was written for the long version of the Fall of Gondolin, which I love dearly.

1. Is Eol's invention of galvorn an accommplishment soley based on technology and skill, or is there some Elvish "magic" at work? Remember, Tolkien has stated that the magic of the Eldar is something that is just innate to their being.

It's probably a mixture of both. If I remember correctly, wasn't Turin's sword made by Eol out of this same material? If so, perhaps the Elvish "magic" gave it its sentience. Hey, maybe the talking purse is made of galvorn, too!

2. Eol uses enchantment not on stones or steel, or tree or twig, but to snare a sentient being: Aredhel. Is this unusual? Is this misguided? Is this an example of seeking to dominate, of seeking power over another, and thus the seeds of destruction are born? Melain uses her Girdle to ensnare and confuse; it seems Eol did something similar. Is the Girdle of Eol a thing bad, or a thing good, or a thing neutral?

This is an interesting thought. His girdle of enchantment is essentially the opposite of Melian's - designed to keep in rather than keep out. I would definitely say it's misguided, especially since eventually leads to Aredhel's and Maeglin's escape to Gondolin and then ultimately the ramifications of Maeglin being there.

3. Maeglin knows he has at least a chance of reading his mother's mind. Elvish powers? Or just Maeglin powers? Galadriel was said to have this gift as well. Is this an unusual gift? A gift many might have, with greater or lesser skill? If many or most have a shot of reading the minds of others, does it force people to be more honest, knowing hiding the truth might be difficult? What about in real life? We Edain can often tell when actions or gestures or expressions are hiding true intent, even if we can't literally read minds. Does this force us to be more honest, or has it compelled us to be greater dissemblers?

I wonder if this is the same ability discussed in LOTR where the Wise communicate through thought. Since Galadriel is mentioned in both, maybe it's not a general Elvish gift, but just one that some are born with or learn.

4. Is Maeglin a stand-in for Feanor? He seems almost a reincarnation. Feanor's eyes were said to be blue, I believe, and Maeglin's were said to be dark -- but dark could be their value (think light blue/dark blue), or they could be green. Tolkien speaks of Elves and Edain having blue or grey eyes, but it should be noted that Germanic populations (which partly inspired his world) have one of the highest concentrations of green eyes in the world). But I digress with the eye color. Maeglin shares so much with Feanor -- appearance, love of the activities associated with Aule, thirst for knowledge, great orator, keen observor, lust for greatness and achievement, fiercely fell in battle.

Hmm, I've certainly never seen the similarity, but perhaps that's because their stories end up being so radically different. Also, bear in mind it says "greatest save one in the most renowned of their realms (italics mine), so I take that to mean he's the second greatest in Gondolin, not the second greatest overall. What do you think?

5. Is this repetition of Feanorian qualities in one character a boring redux? Or is Maeglin different enough to make it interesting?

I think it's different enough. LIke I said, their stories are ultimately so different. I'd say there are plenty of people in real life that may have the same qualities, but their lives end up so differently.

6. +So+ interesting that Tolkien writes that Maeglin was the "last hope of the Noldor." Is this classic Tolkien hyperbole? Or was this very conciously done, considering the strong parallels between Maeglin and Feanor? And what could have become of that hope anyway? There was still an un-overthrowable Vala to the north. Or did Tolkien mean something different? Was there potential in Maeglin (with so many Feanorian qualities) to bring healing and renewal as the Oath of Feanor brought destruction? Maeglin also forged (pun!) alliances with Dwarves. They would have been more powerful allies, had their purposes and those of the Eldar been more closely aligned. Could that also been part of the hope that was symbolized by Maeglin?

I honestly have no idea what this even means. Does it mean that if Maeglin had never gone to Gondolin, things would have turned out better for the Noldor? Or is it precisely because he went to Gondolin that Earendil ultimately made it to Valinor? I'm sure I have no idea what's meant here.

7. Does this mean there's more that is worthy and good among the sons of Feanor? Or does it imply that Aredhel may be noble, but not so good, discerning, or empathetic?

What's interesting is that it's not the "good" sons like Amras or Maedhros. It's Celegorm and Curufin who are easily the worst of the bunch, IMO. I really don't know what this says about Aredhel. I certainly hope they have more redeeming qualities than what they show when we see them (though I doubt it). It's also especially weird because there is that familial split, so you couldn't simply say that they're cousins and therefore grew up together as friends.

8. It's really striking how the Kinslaying doesn't seem to come into play for her. Is she insensitive? She certainly does seem haughty, even to her own brother, Turgon. Is she more vulnerable to the effects of the Oath because of her previous bonds with the sons of Feanor? Why does the Kinslaying and the Oath (which has the whole Doom of Mandos attached to it) not bother her enough so that she keeps her distance from the sons of Feanor?

You would think that since she had to go over the Ice, she'd be even more angry with the Sons of Feanor. Perhaps she's just especially forgiving (though that seems to go against her proud and willful streak). Who knows.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 5:13pm

Post #14 of 381 (7301 views)
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Blond? [In reply to] Can't Post

Blond hair is generally a quality of the Vanyar, so I definitely don't imagine Eol as blond. So aside from the dark hair, I also imagine him as referred to as dark because of his shunning of the sun.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 5:18pm

Post #15 of 381 (7315 views)
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Death penalty [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, just because Aredhel would be returned from Mandos eventually doesn't really negate the fact that Eol still slew her body and made her suffer from a poisoned wound for a few hours. If death doesn't matter because of returning to life in Valinor, why are the kinslayings so bad? I think what Eol did was definitely bad, even among the Elves.

Well, Eol would be subjected to time in Mandos, and considering his evil deeds, I'm sure he'd be stuck there for quite a while.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 5:24pm

Post #16 of 381 (7304 views)
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White Lady of the Noldor [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that also a description of Galadriel? I can see why you think they're similar, but again, I've never thought the similarities made them carbon copies of each other.

You bring up a good point about them naturally having a friendship, but it's probably just a result of the writing process. If I recall correctly, this story wasn't written until 1972. Aredhel, then, didn't come into being until long after the rest of the stories had been written. I could be wrong, though.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 5:25pm

Post #17 of 381 (7328 views)
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Smoke and mirrors [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for what we know will be an insightful chapter expose, Mac, and no problem with it coming on Tuesday. No AC in all that heat? Yeesh! Worse than being breathed on by Smaug. I hope the heat wave will lessen soon.

Re: Eol. The funny thing about Tolkien and magic, despite his treatise on it, is that he seems to invent it on the fly when he needs it. (More to come in the Beren & Lu chapter where they'd be hopeless without it.) In this chapter, the use of magic sets up Eol as a mysterious, shifty character. He could have met Aredhel on the edge of his forest, wooed her with his great charm, and led her as happy bride back to his home. Or he could have physically ambushed her and dragged her home by the hair. Instead he uses tricks and deceits, making readers instantly dislike him and figure that whatever comes of this union, it can't be good.

A little surprising that Aredhel is "not wholly unwilling" at first. The rebellious girl likes the bad boy on the motorcycle? Surprising to me because she seems intelligent, and strong-willed, so why submit to this dark-hearted thuggish guy, kept as his prisoner, not much more than a concubine? Not that this thing never happens in the real world, but I think she needs a big brother around to beat up Eol and slap some sense into her and drag her home. Even her Feanorial cousins seem like they'd happily do that.

So did Eol use magic in creating galvorn, or use his natural enchantments? I think galvorn came from natural enchantment, but snaring Aredhel was pure magic, what Galadriel would call "the deceits of the Enemy." His intent is to trap and dominate her and seems unnatural. By no coincidence, it happens in the same woods where Melian *seemed* to trap Thingol via enchantment, but that was wholesome and consensual. Do you suppose Tolkien made Aredhel partly willing so this wouldn't be disturbing as a basic capture and rape? It's no accident that this unnatural pairing spawned a son with unnatural, incestuous desires. What do you suppose motivates Eol to be like this? Excess isolation, similar to Melkor spending too much time in the Void seeking the Flame? But Eol has servants (as creepy as he is) and can leave the forest when he wanted, so he's a curmudgeon at best who shuns his own kind, and a sociopath at worst. Are there other Dark Elves (in Turgon's use of the word, meaning dark at heart) lurking in other places of the world, or is Eol an exception? He's kin to Thingol: is he jealous that he didn't get the kingship of Beleriand?

Next, what is it with Tolkien and metal?? Isn't mithril cool enough? Later we'll get another special metal in Telchar, made from a meteorite. As much as Tolkien loves trees, he always admires smiths and their handiwork. If Yavanna and Aule are yin and yang, Tolkien has them in equal measure.

Telepathy: my impression is that Elves may all have it to some degree (they use it freely in "Many Partings" in LOTR), but they would use it consensually. Maeglin is reminiscent of Gollum, trying to pry out secrets unscrupulously. His father is a quasi-rapist; the son is a would-be mind violator. Isn't it hard to picture these two Elves in LOTR, where all the Elves are good? Or was Gildor wandering the Shire looking for stray hobbit-lasses--see, doesn't that seem shockingly impossible?

OK, my lunch hour is running out and my diatribe is too. It's sort of fun having villains in the story besides Morgoth, someone I can easily vilify.

I really like your last question:

Quote
Does this force us to be more honest, or has it compelled us to be greater dissemblers?

I wish it made us more honest, but honestly (oops), I think it makes Edain greater dissemblers.



CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 5:38pm

Post #18 of 381 (7291 views)
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My sentiments exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice to see you here, Faenoriel, and thanks for joining in.


In Reply To
However, I've always felt uneasy about Eöl's death. I'm against death sentence IRL so that might have something to do with it. But somehow it seems so brutal for Elves to throw other Elves off cliffs. And there's the matter that Eöl was judged and condemned by the brother of his victim. My modern western sense of justice would require an unbiased, fair trial, not what amounts to a personal revenge.

You articulated my feelings about this passage. Turgon is one of my favorites, but my gut tells me he went too far here, especially throwing Eol off a cliff. Not that there are pleasant ways to execute people, but disturbing = disturbing. I don't like this example of "justice."

On the other hand, I can relate to Turgon as a character. He seems deeply fond of his sister, and he's acting purely on emotion. I'm not excusing him, but I think he's being "human." If he wisely said that Eol should sit in a dungeon for a few centuries to contemplate his evil ways, it wouldn't seem quite real. But then, isn't this another Kinslaying? Elves don't kill Elves, which is why they capitalize Kinslayings. When do the Noldor stop doing this? Or are there other executions in Beleriand we don't read about, or has Turgon gotten used to killing the stray people who stumble upon the outer entrance to his kingdom?

Thanks for adding Tolkien's sentiments on Curufin. I didn't know he wrote this part intentionally to balance Curufin's character, but I'm glad he did, because it makes the book richer. Curufin remains all too easily disposed to violence in his threats to Eol, but his threats come from a sort of brotherly (cousinly) concern for Aredhel, so it's a mixed bag, whereas in the Beren & Lu story, he's pure bad.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 5:52pm

Post #19 of 381 (7286 views)
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Warning! You have sparked recurring bursts of laughter from me at work! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm having trouble covering them up. This is just so funny:


Quote
but perhaps we judge Curufin too harshly -- perhaps Eol was always showing up in the middle of the night with pamphlets about some cause or another, or was trying to sell cookware made from galvorn)



ltnjmy
Rivendell


Jun 4 2013, 5:53pm

Post #20 of 381 (7275 views)
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FABULOUS thread and all of the postings were awesome [In reply to] Can't Post

That is why I love this site so much !!!!Smile


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 5:59pm

Post #21 of 381 (7259 views)
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Glad you enjoy them, Itnjmy, and thanks for saying so! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 6:10pm

Post #22 of 381 (7272 views)
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It's such a fabulous fandom. Wisest and kindest. Tolkien's spirit is upon it. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 6:16pm

Post #23 of 381 (7290 views)
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All good girls want bad boys [In reply to] Can't Post

(Expect I'm not a good girl, and he's not a bad boy.)

Yes, what could possibly attract woman like Aredhel to a man like Eöl? They're like the ray of sunshine and the goblin. Eöl represents everything she wanted to escape from in Gondolin. One must wonder if it truly was some evil magic that lured her in, like a fly to the spider.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 6:24pm

Post #24 of 381 (7260 views)
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Two Ladies in White [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad you ask this question, Maciliel,

Quote
Is Aredhel a pale imitation of Galadriel?

because on first read, I totally thought so. Since characters have multiple names, at first (when she's leaving Gondolin, not later) I wondered if Aredhel would turn out to be Galadriel, given their similarities, and then I was confused on how she could be in Doriath too. Galadriel is described in Lorien as "a slender Elf-woman clad in simple white," and Aredhel only wears white. Pale (punny!) imitation is right, because Aredhel has less depth and wisdom than Galadriel. Galadriel never gets a whole chapter to herself like her cousin does, but she seems more fleshed out as a character with all those brief appearances she makes, peeking out from behind curtains
(or Galadriel-style would be sweeping them aside with a bold flourish).

It does make you wonder if these two girl-cousins in an extended royal family of men stuck together, or were they too similar so that kept them apart? I can see some rivalry here too, both being so proud and not wanting to be lumped together as just "the girls" at family picnics.

Though I appreciate the points others have made: yes, Aredhel is more tomboyish, and she's not interested in politics. Honestly, she seems less mature, like a girl who wants to go outside and play, and she wants to play with the bad boys down the street that Father (really Big Brother) has forbidden, and seems to go to them out of one teen rebellion, then marries another bad boy out of another teen rebellion. Then she has a kid, grows up, gets some sense, and runs home for shelter. Which is odd, because assuming she knew where the Seven Sons of Feanor lived, couldn't she have made a shorter trip for refuge and gone to Himring or Maglor's Gap? I mean, Maglor had a Gap named after him, so if you can find the gap, you can find him or at least his home. And she seemed to have as much protection there from Eol as she would in Gondolin. (Did Eol have a GPS stashed in her saddle?)

Isn't everything about his chapter DARK, in contrast to Aredhel being the White Lady? Aredhel makes foolish decisions and gets lost in a dark forest, is stuck in a dark marriage, has a kid with dark hair, and both her son and husband have dark temperaments. Then her brother acts very darkly in executing her husband, and her son develops darkly incestuous feelings toward his cousin. Idril, with scant mention, is the only one who doesn't seem dark--must be that silver foot glittering.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 7:02pm

Post #25 of 381 (7267 views)
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Lovely presentation Telpemairo! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

1. Is Eol's invention of galvorn an accommplishment soley based on technology and skill, or is there some Elvish "magic" at work? Remember, Tolkien has stated that the magic of the Eldar is something that is just innate to their being. I think it is innate, a cleverness and an intimate knowledge of the materials - seems appropriate that Eol would be drawn to metal, particularly dark-colored metal, as he prefers the twilight; and that with his tie to Arda he has great love of the materials he finds therein.

2. Eol uses enchantment not on stones or steel, or tree or twig, but to snare a sentient being: Aredhel. Is this unusual? Is this misguided? Is this an example of seeking to dominate, of seeking power over another, and thus the seeds of destruction are born? Melain uses her Girdle to ensnare and confuse; it seems Eol did something similar. Is the Girdle of Eol a thing bad, or a thing good, or a thing neutral? I can see you parallel, and it makes sense; it may not be outright domination bit it certainly influence and guidance towards the will of the maker. And we do know that no good ever seems to come form this sort of business.

3. Maeglin knows he has at least a chance of reading his mother's mind. Elvish powers? Or just Maeglin powers? Galadriel was said to have this gift as well. Is this an unusual gift? A gift many might have, with greater or lesser skill? If many or most have a shot of reading the minds of others, does it force people to be more honest, knowing hiding the truth might be difficult? What about in real life? We Edain can often tell when actions or gestures or expressions are hiding true intent, even if we can't literally read minds. Does this force us to be more honest, or has it compelled us to be greater dissemblers? I think it also an innateness of the Firstborn, though because of the similarities of Maeglin and his mother his chances were better; and I think there is probably a skill level, varying with the sensitivity of the Elf as well as the closeness of the Elves involved. As far as Edain go, we still try to dissemble, but the sensitive and observant can often read the unintended body language regardless. So maybe a similar skill, de-evolved to a coarser level.


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 7:09pm

Post #26 of 381 (4196 views)
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Feanor and Maeglin [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Just Who is the Greatest Elf Again?

1. Is Maeglin a stand-in for Feanor? He seems almost a reincarnation. Feanor's eyes were said to be blue, I believe, and Maeglin's were said to be dark -- but dark could be their value (think light blue/dark blue), or they could be green. Tolkien speaks of Elves and Edain having blue or grey eyes, but it should be noted that Germanic populations (which partly inspired his world) have one of the highest concentrations of green eyes in the world). But I digress with the eye color. Maeglin shares so much with Feanor -- appearance, love of the activities associated with Aule, thirst for knowledge, great orator, keen observor, lust for greatness and achievement, fiercely fell in battle.
2. Is this repetition of Feanorian qualities in one character a boring redux? Or is Maeglin different enough to make it interesting?
Things in common yes - but I see them as very different: a positive and negative relief of each other. Feanor's passion were at least honest, open and worn upon his sleeve: rare is the thing Feanor would dissemble about, even to his own disadvantage. Maeglin is a very deeper, controlled and calculating soul. Maeglin, having the Silmarils, might have bargained harshly with the Valar - and might not necessarily have delivered. All in all I prefer the honest if misguided miscalculations of Feanor to the cool dis-passion of Maeglin.

3. +So+ interesting that Tolkien writes that Maeglin was the "last hope of the Noldor." Is this classic Tolkien hyperbole? Or was this very conciously done, considering the strong parallels between Maeglin and Feanor? And what could have become of that hope anyway? There was still an un-overthrowable Vala to the north. Or did Tolkien mean something different? Was there potential in Maeglin (with so many Feanorian qualities) to bring healing and renewal as the Oath of Feanor brought destruction? Maeglin also forged (pun!) alliances with Dwarves. They would have been more powerful allies, had their purposes and those of the Eldar been more closely aligned. Could that also been part of the hope that was symbolized by Maeglin? The last hope of the Noldor to maintain a Kingdom perhaps, had he somehow become Turgon's heir?


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 7:15pm

Post #27 of 381 (4185 views)
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Aredhel [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
"My heart desires rather to find the sons of Feanor, my friends of old."
Aredhel spent a lot of time in Valinor with the Sons of Feanor. She counts enough of them as friends to lump them in a group, rather than just "I want to see my friend, Celegorm." She doesn't seem phased by the Oath or by the Kinslaying (perhaps because her brother, Fingon, and her father, Fingolfin, were among the slayers of kin).
1. Does this mean there's more that is worthy and good among the sons of Feanor? Or does it imply that Aredhel may be noble, but not so good, discerning, or empathetic?
Maybe just that desire to be the Belle of the Ball, as perhaps she was when in the company of all the F-troop? I think her restlessness (and fickleness?) is more at play that the desire to see any of them specifically - thus no naming of anyone in particular.

2. It's really striking how the Kinslaying doesn't seem to come into play for her. Is she insensitive? She certainly does seem haughty, even to her own brother, Turgon. Is she more vulnerable to the effects of the Oath because of her previous bonds with the sons of Feanor? Why does the Kinslaying and the Oath (which has the whole Doom of Mandos attached to it) not bother her enough so that she keeps her distance from the sons of Feanor? I think its her nature to think about what she wants - and if she wants freedom to explore, to seek out whom she will, than worrying too much about the Kinslaying will get in the way of that. I would say your choice of word -discernment - is perfect M-T, and I think that is what may be lacking here, along with a very strong ego. Her desire to her is more important than preserving the safety of their whole Kingdom.


.


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 7:20pm

Post #28 of 381 (4190 views)
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Elf coloring [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Eol -- A Dark, Blond Elf?
1. Eol is constantly referred to as the "Dark Elf," but is that more a reflection of his moriquendi status and his shunning of the sun (which he may associate with the trouble-making, trouble-bringing Noldor), than of his physical appearance?
2. Eol is referred to as "high kin" of the Teleri and kin of Thingol. I'm thinking that he may indeed have been of lighter coloring, rather than raven-haired (which I associate with Aredhel). Thoughts?
Hmm, from a genetic standpoint, I would guess he was dark - as Maeglin needs to get that black hair from somewhere. Don't know why but I have always pictured Aredhel as blonde - but I may be wrong there. In any case, they certainly could both be dark-haired...when Eol comes to Gondolin the guards call him a dark and grim...not sure if that's long enough time to know his nature well enough to call him 'Dark' or if its an actual description. I feel like its a description...
.


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 7:28pm

Post #29 of 381 (4191 views)
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1001 Elf Ways to Die [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Killer Elves or the Curse at Work?
1. For enightened beings, there sure is a lot of killing and threat of killing going on -- often for little reason (see Curufin's thwarted threat to kill Eol, for no reason than Eol just knocked on his door; but perhaps we judge Curufin too harshly -- perhaps Eol was always showing up in the middle of the night with pamphlets about some cause or another, or was trying to sell cookware made from galvorn). Is this murderous and near murderous pattern an abberation? Do you find this shocking, coming from Elves? When Morgoth was killing and disturbing things in Arda, the Valar at first locked him up. Is it ill-advised to do what the Valar would not? Take a life (which is what brought the Doom of Mandos upon them in the first place)? It was those pamphlets about "The Sun causes Cancer..." and the other Elves had just had enough of it. Of course ironically Eol would be vindicated thousands of years later...in any case indeed, these is lots of passion about, which I think is easy to forget about. I don't know how enlightened everyone is yet, not that far from the Summoning, the sundering of the Elf- kins, the Kinslaying...etc. etc. Think their wisdom is still a work in progress.

2. Eol is killed after Aredhel dies from her poisoned wound. Was Turgon justified in killing Eol, knowing that Aredhel was immortal, and would likely be released from the Halls of Mandos? 3. Is the killing of Eol a slightly more than meaningless sentance, considering that he, too, is immortal? It's anger, pure and simple; without a deeper concern for the consequences. It would rid Turgon of this Elf for the recent future - which in his emotional state might be the only thing he is thinking about. I think what tilts the scales is not just the dart, but that it was poisoned. There is a big ol' hint of premeditation here, because of that; perhaps as a straight crime of passion Eol would have fared better. And of course if Eol was set free, it would have been the doom of Gondolin from Turgon's point of view. So perhaps anger plus a sense of saving the rest of his people?




.


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 7:33pm

Post #30 of 381 (4179 views)
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A Tale of Two Women [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Parallels --Aredhel and Galadriel

1. Is Aredhel a pale imitation of Galadriel? Or does she have her own, distinct personality? Do you think they were close, having such similar personalities? Interesting... when Aredhel finally gets out of Gondolin, and even arrives at the borders of Doriath, she doesn't inquire whether her cousin Galadriel might be staying there. We know Galadriel was hanging out for a long while in Doriath.... was she there at the time of Aredhel's arrival?
2. A friendship would seemed most natural between Aredhel and Galadriel. Why isn't this described? Is it because Tolkien had some weaknesses with writing female characters? To describe two of them as having a strong bond of friendship and conversations seems natural in reality but is absent in his writings (the closest we get are some lines between Melian and Galadriel). Or do you think they would not have gotten on? Both too proud, too similar? I had never considered this before - but my instinct tells me they would have been to similar: both too fond of being the center of things, wanting control and to do what one wills. So maybe that's why she doesn't ask about Galadriel...I do see a lack of female interactions in general, but this one might have been a bit chilly!


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 7:37pm

Post #31 of 381 (4219 views)
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"not wholly unwilling" [In reply to] Can't Post

I remain deeply disturbed by Eol's seduction of Aredhel. Indeed, I regard it as equivalent to "date rape," wherein A gets B drunk or high until B becomes "not wholly unwilling." The entire scenario is highly repellant.

Moreover, Eol increasingly takes on the behavioral characteristics of an abusive husband, preventing Aredhel from leaving or communicating with her family until she has to engineer an escape many years later.

The "rebellious girl likes the bad boy" image would be more persuasive if it weren't for all the enchantments he used to entrap her.








CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 7:39pm

Post #32 of 381 (4162 views)
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It's the poison [In reply to] Can't Post

What disturbs me about Eol is he tries to kill his own son, and fails by spearing his wife by accident. But he doesn't tell anyone that he poisoned the blade, which is completely unconscionable, since the story implies that by revealing that, he could have spared her life if someone knew the antidote. (And of course ironically, she virtuously pleads for his life before the poison overwhelms her.) I feel Turgon is wrong in having him thrown off a cliff, but I don't feel pity for Eol at all. He's as bad as Feanor needlessly causing death and destruction. Good riddance!


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 7:44pm

Post #33 of 381 (4165 views)
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Cliff death [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, so I finally finished skimming through the chapter, and I've come to the conclusion that Eol's death is solely for foreshadowing and Eol's prophetic words to Maeglin. And I think that Tolkien was simply going for that. Extreme, maybe. But a beautiful piece of imagery for a story if you ask me.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 7:44pm

Post #34 of 381 (4189 views)
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I like all the points you make here [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I remain deeply disturbed by Eol's seduction of Aredhel. Indeed, I regard it as equivalent to "date rape," wherein A gets B drunk or high until B becomes "not wholly unwilling." The entire scenario is highly repellant.

Moreover, Eol increasingly takes on the behavioral characteristics of an abusive husband, preventing Aredhel from leaving or communicating with her family until she has to engineer an escape many years later.

The "rebellious girl likes the bad boy" image would be more persuasive if it weren't for all the enchantments he used to entrap her.




As Maciliel pointed out in one of the OP's, the use of enchantments to keep things 'in' and to carry the alone, frightened Elf girl to his doorstep, where charm is purposefully exerted...not particularly palatable. And like other things in the JRRT universe, such imposition of will upon another won't end well.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 7:50pm

Post #35 of 381 (4167 views)
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I agree on the poison CG [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What disturbs me about Eol is he tries to kill his own son, and fails by spearing his wife by accident. But he doesn't tell anyone that he poisoned the blade, which is completely unconscionable, since the story implies that by revealing that, he could have spared her life if someone knew the antidote. (And of course ironically, she virtuously pleads for his life before the poison overwhelms her.) I feel Turgon is wrong in having him thrown off a cliff, but I don't feel pity for Eol at all. He's as bad as Feanor needlessly causing death and destruction. Good riddance!




Premeditation there. Doubly disturbing that it was meant for his child. I like Ardamire's idea too, about the foreshadowing; from a story perspective, PLUS in the way it shoes the chill calculation of Maeglin (that ominous silence of his) it works very well.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 7:51pm

Post #36 of 381 (4156 views)
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Aredhel's hair [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmm, funny, I've always imagined her with black hair. Perhaps this is the key to her differentiation from Galadriel! Tongue

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 7:52pm

Post #37 of 381 (4157 views)
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Eol and Maeglin [In reply to] Can't Post

Story, you say? Oh, no, Ardamire, this is reality to us fans! Wink

The funny thing is that I don't see anything wrong with Tuor throwing Maeglin over the same cliff that Eol was thrown over, because in that case Tuor was fighting for his own life along with his wife's and son's. It wasn't a cold-blooded execution but part of the violence and confusion in the sack of the city.

I know it's just a story, but Turgon's action feels morally wrong, especially for him, because he's the one who's more sober and thoughtful among the Noldor, and in this case he's hot-headed. He has reason to be, but still...


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 7:55pm

Post #38 of 381 (4181 views)
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Good comparison [In reply to] Can't Post

It does seem like date rape, doesn't it? Only after the drug wears off, Aredhel is partly willing to be with Eol while also being his captive. That's disturbing too. Or it's Stockholm Syndrome, hard to say.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 8:04pm

Post #39 of 381 (4146 views)
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I think there are a bah-zillion facets to this chapter [In reply to] Can't Post

And Maeglin's creepy silent observation, as you point out, over his father trying to kill him but killing his mother instead, and then having both parents die, is chilling, as is his soulless scheming in rising in power and prestige. He's not a child, and I think he's too old to blame his warped feelings on this trauma. Not to be heartless to him either, but it seems that without the parental massacre, he'd still bet twisted, and having his dad kill his mom and then his uncle kill his dad (did we just run into a Hamlet adaptation? Though that sounds like something noWizardme would say, so I stole his line.)

Anyway, all that happens, and Maeglin is left in a strange country that's completely isolated, and he's lost not only his parents, but the only people he's known except for creepy servants and Dwarves (okay, the Dwarves were alright). So it's fair to call this trauma and say it takes a toll on him. But I still hold him responsible for his later actions in betraying the city, trauma or not.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 8:05pm

Post #40 of 381 (4147 views)
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Prophesy [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, I agree. Tuor throwing Maeglin off the cliff is totally fine. He was, after all, threatening to kill both Idril and Earendil, and they just so happened to be on top of a cliff during a battle.

What I meant was that because of that story, and Tolkien's desire to have Eol's prophesy, Eol had to be thrown off of a cliff, too, and have prior knowledge of it. So the only plausible solution is for Eol to be facing the death penalty by cliff-dive. The result is that Turgon is the judge, and that leaves some people uneasy. For me, I'm not bothered at all. Eol did, after all, premeditate murder with a poisoned weapon, and everyone saw him actually throw it. It's a clear-cut case, IMO. (The only problem being he hit the wrong person.)

Speaking of Tuor for a second, of all the stories in The Silmarillion as published, his is the must truncated and underwhelming, especially after going through HoME and seeing just how beautiful and detailed the original story is. I think that even with Christopher editing out bits that Tolkien later abandoned we could have had a chapter at least as long as Beren and Luthien or Turin.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 8:11pm

Post #41 of 381 (4146 views)
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I think he's just 'wrong' [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And Maeglin's creepy silent observation, as you point out, over his father trying to kill him but killing his mother instead, and then having both parents die, is chilling, as is his soulless scheming in rising in power and prestige. He's not a child, and I think he's too old to blame his warped feelings on this trauma. Not to be heartless to him either, but it seems that without the parental massacre, he'd still bet twisted, and having his dad kill his mom and then his uncle kill his dad (did we just run into a Hamlet adaptation? Though that sounds like something noWizardme would say, so I stole his line.)

Anyway, all that happens, and Maeglin is left in a strange country that's completely isolated, and he's lost not only his parents, but the only people he's known except for creepy servants and Dwarves (okay, the Dwarves were alright). So it's fair to call this trauma and say it takes a toll on him. But I still hold him responsible for his later actions in betraying the city, trauma or not.




especially due to his circumstances of birth - with the way that Eol deviously used Aredhel's vulnerability (though it was through her own choice to end up in such a bad place, rrgh) in such an iffy way that seems to doom their child a bit.

Does it bug anyone else that Eol doesn't name his son until he's TWELVE? What did he call him as a baby? 'You there'...'rugrat'...? It seems to show a real lack of connection there - kind of a non-parent.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 8:15pm

Post #42 of 381 (4135 views)
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Everything about Eol bugs me, lol. And that non-naming does too. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 8:20pm

Post #43 of 381 (4161 views)
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it's especially sad that she gets trapped by Eöl after dreaming of freedom [In reply to] Can't Post

It's almost as if she was punished... for what? Does Tolkien consider her a faulted person? I don't, but women rarely meet endings this bad unless it's for tragic love.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 8:23pm

Post #44 of 381 (4156 views)
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Maeglin resembles Curufin in many aspects [In reply to] Can't Post

To the point where I have amused myself on very AU fanfiction ideas of Maeglin being Curufin's son, born out of wedlock.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


hanne
Lorien

Jun 4 2013, 8:25pm

Post #45 of 381 (4166 views)
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last hope [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
3. +So+ interesting that Tolkien writes that Maeglin was the "last hope of the Noldor." Is this classic Tolkien hyperbole? Or was this very conciously done, considering the strong parallels between Maeglin and Feanor? And what could have become of that hope anyway? There was still an un-overthrowable Vala to the north. Or did Tolkien mean something different? Was there potential in Maeglin (with so many Feanorian qualities) to bring healing and renewal as the Oath of Feanor brought destruction? Maeglin also forged (pun!) alliances with Dwarves. They would have been more powerful allies, had their purposes and those of the Eldar been more closely aligned. Could that also been part of the hope that was symbolized by Maeglin?


I always read it as the shadow fell on Idril, who was the last hope of the Noldor because she was the mother of Earendil, who was the actual last hope. So it's interesting, your thought it could have been Maeglin. He was also a child of two disparate groups, and could have pleaded for both calaquendi and moriquendi.



Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 8:27pm

Post #46 of 381 (4164 views)
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PS: Tolkien's girls always want the good boy. [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you name one single Tolkien female which would have been sexually/romantically drawn to a man of clearly ambiguous morality? They fall for the good, kind, noble man without hesitation.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


imin
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 8:35pm

Post #47 of 381 (4142 views)
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If you were Turgon [In reply to] Can't Post

What would you have done with Eol?

Temporary imprisonment? Eternal imprisonment? Send him to Valinor for judgement? Death but in a different manner? Rehabilitation?

Also was Turgon's execution cold blooded? As in i doubt he would have been impartial or even coming to terms with what happened so i don't think it can be considered a cold blooded fully calculated, more of a reaction, but i see what you mean at same time :)

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


imin
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 8:35pm

Post #48 of 381 (4139 views)
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hmm [In reply to] Can't Post

Nerdanel?

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 8:39pm

Post #49 of 381 (4130 views)
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That would explain a lot Faenoriel... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
To the point where I have amused myself on very AU fanfiction ideas of Maeglin being Curufin's son, born out of wedlock.




The similarities PLUS the distance Eol apparently had towards the child...very good link there.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 8:40pm

Post #50 of 381 (4156 views)
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Fëanor wasn't bad to begin with. When he started to show corruption [In reply to] Can't Post

Nerdanel dumped him.

And while we're at it, let's celebrate what a kick-ass femme she was. The only person from whom Fëanor sought advice and who could influence him. Had the personality to make her the spouse of the crown prince even despite apparently not being the pretties lady around. Had the spine to leave him when he went too far. Had the figurative balls to stand up to him and demand the twins even at the hour of Fëanor's madness.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


imin
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 8:42pm

Post #51 of 381 (4085 views)
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Yeah it was a long shot [In reply to] Can't Post

And the best i had, lol. Tolkien just didn't write that way i guess (watch someone prove this wrong in a minute, lol).

I agree though she was a great character and to be able to influence Feanor must have been quite the elf!

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 8:47pm

Post #52 of 381 (4092 views)
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Tolkien liked women and had a very high opinion of them, it seems [In reply to] Can't Post

His females are both wise in general and know to avoid destructive relationships. If only other fictional females were equally smart! They have a very disturbing and annoying tendency to be drawn to men who are bad, mad and dangerous to know*. Then they die to cause some angst to the said man.


*That would be lord Byron, actually. Cool

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 8:49pm

Post #53 of 381 (4079 views)
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In a world where everyone has loads of names and the loads have names too [In reply to] Can't Post

a person not having a name for 12 years must be the epitome of "wrong".

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 8:50pm

Post #54 of 381 (4070 views)
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I thought last hope was Gondolin [In reply to] Can't Post

The longest-surviving kingdom of the Noldor when the rest were vanquished, and also birthplace of Earendil. But I may have missed something.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 8:53pm

Post #55 of 381 (4077 views)
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I am intrigued by your take on Feanor... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Nerdanel dumped him.

And while we're at it, let's celebrate what a kick-ass femme she was. The only person from whom Fëanor sought advice and who could influence him. Had the personality to make her the spouse of the crown prince even despite apparently not being the pretties lady around. Had the spine to leave him when he went too far. Had the figurative balls to stand up to him and demand the twins even at the hour of Fëanor's madness.




...and his possible redemption/epiphany had he lived to se the Sun...I covered it in the Chapter 13 discussion, and I brought it up as a rather small minority with a sneaking fondness for Feanor and maybe some slim hope of salvation for him. (Not to jack the thread, but have been wanting to ask you your thoughts...! If you wander three pages back and have any ideas I will keep an eye out for them!)

As for the above: all true. A strong and faithful nature but not a domineering one in Nerdanel.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 8:55pm

Post #56 of 381 (4058 views)
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I thought it was wrong enough, but [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't think of that--thanks for pointing it out. It's even more wrong, isn't it?


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 9:02pm

Post #57 of 381 (4046 views)
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So true [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
a person not having a name for 12 years must be the epitome of "wrong".




and one can't count Eol yelling 'tell *seed of my loins* dinner is ready!!!' Interesting too that the name Aredhel gives him is an outlawed Quenya one - bit of pique against Thingol, for not allowing her through Doriath? ("if Thingol had let me ride through Doriath, this would never have happened...)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 9:05pm

Post #58 of 381 (4047 views)
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Eöl hated the Noldor, but desired Aredhel. What's in there? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is his hate for Noldor born out of jealousy for their might and skill, and his possessiveness of Aredhel a symptom of him wanting to own something of that greatness? Or is it uglier, and he wants to shame the ethnicity he hates by possessing "their woman"? Like soldiers rape women of the countries they occupy.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 9:06pm

Post #59 of 381 (4059 views)
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Eowyn? [In reply to] Can't Post

I could see her running off with a bad boy to spite Aragorn.


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 9:07pm

Post #60 of 381 (4067 views)
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No wonder Maeglin had such a distorted image of romantic relationship [In reply to] Can't Post

when he had these two for parental role models. Creeping and stalking is love!

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 9:11pm

Post #61 of 381 (4043 views)
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Gríma? :D [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn is at least suspicious looking, but still undoubtedly noble hearted. Faramir is the epitome of honey puppy darling. She herself is the dark tragic antihero of the romance!

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 9:16pm

Post #62 of 381 (4031 views)
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Excellent point [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
when he had these two for parental role models. Creeping and stalking is love!




A distant father, lack of connection...and as you point out as well upthread Eol's dislike of the Noldor, yet the desire for 'possession' of Aredhel...fast-forward to Maeglin and Idril, and his need not to be 'with' Idril, or to know her or even like her, but to 'possess' her...clearly relationship modeling. Another messed-up dynamic.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 9:34pm

Post #63 of 381 (4051 views)
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A long life in the craft [In reply to] Can't Post

I expect immortality helps a lot if you want to get superexcellent at an art or craft

Quote
“From the age of 6 I had a mania for drawing the shapes of things. When I was 50 I had published a universe of designs. But all I have done before the the age of 70 is not worth bothering with. At 75 I'll have learned something of the pattern of nature, of animals, of plants, of trees, birds, fish and insects. When I am 80 you will see real progress. At 90 I shall have cut my way deeply into the mystery of life itself. At 100, I shall be a marvelous artist. At 110, everything I create; a dot, a line, will jump to life as never before. To all of you who are going to live as long as I do, I promise to keep my word. I am writing this in my old age. I used to call myself Hokusai, but today I sign my self 'The Old Man Mad About Drawing.”
Hokusai Katsushika

I love this quote for the idea that a master is always improving (and still full of optimism about it in his old age). If he were an elf, we could enjoy the drawings he made when several hundred years old. And he'd still be around to teach the youngsters.

That doesn't explain how elves mess with your head though- their other magical skill in Tolkien and the stories he admired.

An odd thing in fantasy stories: there are often great secrets of craft which have now been lost. As opposed to real life for several centuries where the technology has mostly improved.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 9:50pm

Post #64 of 381 (4057 views)
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technology improves [In reply to] Can't Post

 
.... sometimes, but lots of techniques have been lost through the ages, like how to make damascus steel.

but i get what you're saying.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 9:55pm

Post #65 of 381 (4050 views)
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Hair and eye coloring [In reply to] Can't Post

Reera the Red (who also maintains the screencaplib) has a comprehensive chart of hair and eye colors for most Tolkien characters, including Elves, Hobbits, Men, and a few other creatures. A good candidate for your bookmark list!








Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 10:05pm

Post #66 of 381 (4058 views)
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The good thing about TORn forum format is that no thread can be hijacked [In reply to] Can't Post

only more subdiscussions made. I glanced the Fëanor covering topics on the previous pages, but I personally almost never read anything past the first page, so I'd feel it futile to contribute to discussions already so far back. Therefore, if nobody stops me, I'll share some of my thoughts with you here and now. Perhaps if I find it in me I'll write something to those topics too, if they really still are active.

Obviously, I love him, and have loved for a decade now. But I have nothing against people who dislike him either, and even understand their sentiments. I assume most people who outright hate him do it out of moral judgement, and who am I to judge them for such a correct moral opinion. However, for me it's not a moral issue, but simple appreciation for his basic personality. For he manages to incarnate not only one but multiple of very attractive character traits:

The first two of his major traits are of the kind I admire in a person:

1) I love characters who are searchers. Who have great imaginative powers, and who wish to go further, to know more, to find more, to achieve more. Scientist, artists, philosophers, explorers, adventurers... give me them all, them and their ever active brains yearning to unravel the mysteries of the universe. They have positive restlessness.
2) Secondly I love people who are passionate, who truly care, what ever it is that they care about.

The three other traits are negative ones that I share myself and therefore both connect to this kind of characters and feel for them:

3) Persons who are somehow outsiders in their society. They fail to connect to the people around them, the daily life and the common norms and thought patterns. Or they've been pushed outside the society. Or they have free willingly chosen the life of a lone wolf. This can be both because of some personal problem or because the society is at fault, I connect to both types.
4) People who suffer from the vice of pride, for it's a vice I'm very familiar with myself.
5) People who suffer from dark mind, of anger or sadness, of frustration, of negative restlessness and sense of unsatisfaction.

Of course, of this all Fëanor is the king. He's a wonderer and a wanderer, a scientist-artist of the good old Renaissance type... and one of a really shadowy mind. But that for his basic personality. Now to his life and actions. Warning; head canon is in heavy use here.

I believe Fëanor was quite simply spoiled rotten, and yet suffered from Inferiority Superiority Complex: http://tvtropes.org/...tySuperiorityComplex (I've forgotten how to insert links into words here...) Because of the loss of his mother, he felt insecurity about Finwë's continued love and presence in his life, and therefore clung to him. Yet he was aware he was the reason for Finwë's suffering, and that there was something wrong with him. about him - that he had disturbed Finwë's life and failed to be what a child is supposed to be - the fulfillment of martial love. Since early age he was continuously praised for his skill, and he started to confuse this praise for love and appreciation. He both felt insecure about himself and his closest personal relationship, and developed sense of superiority, perhaps partially to compensate that insecurity. He also failed to learn that negative feedback isn't a question of condemning him as a person.

Now this is very head canon-y, but I've long suspected Fëanor felt very deeply threatened by Finwë's new marriage because he saw in it the successful marriage Míriel had failed to give Finwë, and in their children the successful children he himself had failed to be. Indis didn't die and made Finwë happy. Their children were good mooded, well behaving, problem free... The ideal nuclear family! Fingolfin was the worst offender, because Fingolfin was so damn perfect.

Okay, let's cut it short.

I don't know how things had changed had his actions been different before the word of Finwë's death came. I don't know anything. But I do tend to believe he will find his salvation and be part of the recreation of Arda. If for nothing else, for Eru's glory. Ilúvatar isn't exactly similar to the Abrahamic God he's modeled after, but this much he should resemble his inspiration, that he can undo such apparent mockery of his creation and change an Elf's heart, when that Elf is given thousands and thousands and thousands of years time to contemplate.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 10:07pm

Post #67 of 381 (4053 views)
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She's his wife now. [In reply to] Can't Post

Laws and Customs of the Eldar makes it clear that once intercourse has occurred Elves are permanently married. So she wouldn't feel entitled to just move on, until life became so unendurable that she got desperate.








Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 10:18pm

Post #68 of 381 (4033 views)
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Because I'm denied from editing that post, children are now products of martial love [In reply to] Can't Post

Could be worse, I guess...

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

(This post was edited by Faenoriel on Jun 4 2013, 10:19pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 10:21pm

Post #69 of 381 (4034 views)
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Awesome. I loved reading this. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Obviously, I love him, and have loved for a decade now. But I have nothing against people who dislike him either, and even understand their sentiments. I assume most people who outright hate him do it out of moral judgement, and who am I to judge them for such a correct moral opinion. However, for me it's not a moral issue, but simple appreciation for his basic personality. For he manages to incarnate not only one but multiple of very attractive character traits:
1) I love characters who are searchers. Who have great imaginative powers, and who wish to go further, to know more, to find more, to achieve more. Scientist, artists, philosophers, explorers, adventurers... give me them all, them and their ever active brains yearning to unravel the mysteries of the universe. They have positive restlessness. 2) Secondly I love people who are passionate, who truly care, what ever it is that they care about. That's what I see in Feanor as well; I myself am drawn to such characters and one with the fire in his soul, such an Feanor, layered with complexity.

3) Persons who are somehow outsiders in their society. They fail to connect to the people around them, the daily life and the common norms and thought patterns. Or they've been pushed outside the society. Or they have free willingly chosen the life of a lone wolf. This can be both because of some personal problem or because the society is at fault, I connect to both types.
4) People who suffer from the vice of pride, for it's a vice I'm very familiar with myself.
5) People who suffer from dark mind, of anger or sadness, of frustration, of negative restlessness and sense of unsatisfaction.
All true about who he is, although I think the reason I feel so much hope for him, as you say, in the second Creation is that the circumstances that created his lack of connection with the world (and thus his ability, I think to be satisfied by it, turning to his inner fair - creation - for his only satisfaction) were not of his making. The marring of Arda and Miriel's choice - none of which Feanor had control over, and those situations I feel made the Elf.

Of course, of this all Fëanor is the king. He's a wonderer and a wanderer, a scientist-artist of the good old Renaissance type... and one of a really shadowy mind. But that for his basic personality. Now to his life and actions. Warning; head canon is in heavy use here.
I believe Fëanor was quite simply spoiled rotten, and yet suffered from Inferiority Superiority Complex:
http://tvtropes.org/...tySuperiorityComplex (I've forgotten how to insert links into words here...) Because of the loss of his mother, he felt insecurity about Finwë's continued love and presence in his life, and therefore clung to him. Yet he was aware he was the reason for Finwë's suffering, and that there was something wrong with him. about him - that he had disturbed Finwë's life and failed to be what a child is supposed to be - the fulfillment of martial love. Love this point. Especially since there was no secret to the reason for Miriel's departure; unintended as it may have been, it put Feanor straight in the crosshairs as the reason for the loss of the mother and the marriage. Since early age he was continuously praised for his skill, and he started to confuse this praise for love and appreciation. He both felt insecure about himself and his closest personal relationship, and developed sense of superiority, perhaps partially to compensate that insecurity. He also failed to learn that negative feedback isn't a question of condemning him as a person. Now this is very head canon-y, but I've long suspected Fëanor felt very deeply threatened by Finwë's new marriage because he saw in it the successful marriage Míriel had failed to give Finwë, and in their children the successful children he himself had failed to be. Indis didn't die and made Finwë happy. Their children were good mooded, well behaving, problem free... The ideal nuclear family! Fingolfin was the worst offender, because Fingolfin was so damn perfect. I never took the analogy this far, as to the root cause of the jealousy - it makes a lot of sense what you put forth here, that it arises from that insecurity and sense of loss. Especially surrounded by such perfection. I hope dearly for redemption and happiness for him someday. Thanks Faenoriel!!!!! Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 10:31pm

Post #70 of 381 (4030 views)
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At your service! *deep bow* // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 10:36pm

Post #71 of 381 (4041 views)
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Gondolin in general, and Idril in particular. [In reply to] Can't Post

The sentence is a little convoluted, but I can't imagine that Tolkien actually meant that Maeglin was the "last hope of the Noldor."








Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 11:50pm

Post #72 of 381 (4015 views)
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was thinking along similar lines... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
hi faenoriel : )

[faenorial]
Perhaps Maeglin could have functioned as an instrument for peace between Noldor, Sindar, Avari and Dwarves, considering he had connections to them all? Had he not become a traitor and had Turgon died, would the throne of the High King fallen to him or Gil-Galad?
[/faenoriel]

clearly, i was thinking along similar lines. what a special position maeglin held -- part noldor, heir/likely heir to turgon, part teleri, part moriquendi (and +how+), friends with dwarves, fantastically talented +and+ capable of capturing hearts and minds with powerful oration. the only thing missing is the edain.

interesting re gil-galad... fwiw... i always thought that galadriel should be considered high queen over gil-galad.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 4 2013, 11:50pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 11:57pm

Post #73 of 381 (4008 views)
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aredhel's transgressions [In reply to] Can't Post

 
[faenoriel]
In other matters too I'd be unwilling to condemn Aredhel. What did she do wrong, exactly? She's an adult woman, of course she has the right to go where she wishes and meet whom she wants. Turgon's kingship doesn't extend outside his realm, nor into Aredhel personal life.
[/faenoriel]


agreed, basically. i don't view aredhel as doing anything wrong, necessarily. i do think she treated turgon with a bit of haughtiness. turgon is the king and the king made the rule about the hidden kingdom (no outsies). it's unclear whether anyone had a choice in going, and perhaps that would temper things. but if everyone went with open eyes, knowing that this is the rule... well, that's the rule, and it was enacted to keep every single soul in the kingdom safe.

so, she's not wrong, but she was risking the safety of the kingdom. and turgon's fears were well-founded, as eol tracked her without her noticing.

re what authority a king has over his subjects when they are outside the kingdom... if they renounce his kingship, then all bets are off. but one might still be considered the subject of a king and subject to his laws even if you're in another kingdom (e.g., the king forbids a subject from disclosing the secret location, the king forbids the language of the noldor from being spoken by any of his people, no matter where they are).


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 12:01am

Post #74 of 381 (4010 views)
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Neat! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Reera the Red (who also maintains the screencaplib) has a comprehensive chart of hair and eye colors for most Tolkien characters, including Elves, Hobbits, Men, and a few other creatures. A good candidate for your bookmark list!




Very cool - bookmarked it! Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 12:02am

Post #75 of 381 (4004 views)
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curufin's generosity [In reply to] Can't Post

 
[faenoriel]
This scene was to be where Curufin spares Eöl's life. The reason for Curufin to kill him was of course that Eöl more or less kidnapped his dear cousin and held her prisoner in a somewhat abusive marriage, from which she had to escape. Curufin could have killed Eöl, and because he was accompanied only by his own loyal servants, he wouldn't have faces any consequences. But he let Eöl live, because killing him would have been a murder.
[/faenoriel]

haven't read all of home, but by the customs of the eldar, aredhel and eol were married, and tolkien also states (in morgoth's ring) that elves don't cheat on their spouses, and don't rape, etc. so, as far as curufin knew, aredhel and eol had loved and perhaps still loved, and that aredhel had willingly taken eol as a husband. it seems more than rude to tell your brother-in-law that you wish to kill him, but can't, because it wouldn't be polite.

agreed re the uneasiness surrounding eol's death, even though he was an absolute murderer.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 12:17am

Post #76 of 381 (4145 views)
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With some other author, maybe. [In reply to] Can't Post

Faenoriel is right, Tolkien's women wouldn't do anything like that.








Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 12:19am

Post #77 of 381 (4151 views)
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friends or no [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
[faenoriel]
Because Galadriel hated Fëanor and therefore likely also his Sons, but Aredhel was their loyal friend.

I see Aredhel as a personality well distinct from Galadriel. She has a clear tomboyish feel to her, something Galadriel lacks despite her athletic side. Galadriel is more of a politician, while Aredhel doesn't seem to care of such matters and prefers outdoors life.

Also, I'm strongly against the notion that Tolkien had problems writing females. He created more male characters, but whenever he created a female, he always made her count. His women are so strong and proud and intelligent. Evil
[/faenoriel]



re tolkien's depictions of women.... i agree with you partly.... he was ahead of his time, and created many memorable female characters who were strong.

but there are such a +dearth+ of them, it seems to belie some level of dismissal or uncomfortability. like galadriel being the only female of the nolor to stand tall on the day the noldor debated leaving valinor. he makes eowyn put away her sword and shield for more ladylike, peaceful pursuits. he doesn't even give names to aragorn's daughters, and they're part of the first generation of the newly restored twin kingdoms (tolkien, who has such a strong love of geneology). many females who appear in elven family trees seem there only to bring forth the next generation.

few of them have stories in their own right.. for every galadriel we have a dozen earwens, elenwes, anaires, and whoever curufin married (she's not even named).

we can lay a lot of this charge on christopher, who removed what little tolkien provided in the way of strong female characters and detail (he eviscerated miriel, just about eliminated nerdanel entirely, and findis, finvain, and the third [whose name i've temporarily forgotten] aren't even on the family tree).

and female dwarves aren't even half of the population. which seems biologically unsustainable, given the other details he gave.

i appreciate that tolkien was ahead of his time in many ways regarding the depiction of females. but not in all ways.

the gender imbalance, given the storylines, is a sad defect, of the writings i love and the author i esteem mightily.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 12:21am

Post #78 of 381 (4143 views)
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the idea [In reply to] Can't Post

 
the idea of the talking purse being made of galvorn +cracked me up+! : )

btw, i may be one of the few who does not take the sentences re turin's conversation with his sword literally. i take those sentences as poetic device, and do not think that the sword spoke.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 12:23am

Post #79 of 381 (4132 views)
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so glad [In reply to] Can't Post

 
so glad you are enjoying it, ltnjmy! : ) lovely to see you. : )

please feel very free to share any thoughts you have. you know you are most welcome. : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 12:34am

Post #80 of 381 (4159 views)
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"not wholly unwilling" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
[elizabeth]
I remain deeply disturbed by Eol's seduction of Aredhel. Indeed, I regard it as equivalent to "date rape," wherein A gets B drunk or high until B becomes "not wholly unwilling." The entire scenario is highly repellant.

Moreover, Eol increasingly takes on the behavioral characteristics of an abusive husband, preventing Aredhel from leaving or communicating with her family until she has to engineer an escape many years later.

The "rebellious girl likes the bad boy" image would be more persuasive if it weren't for all the enchantments he used to entrap her.
[/elizabeth]



i think a lot of things turn on the phrase "not wholly unwilling."

in morgoth's ring, when tolkien describes elven natures re love, marriage, etc., he says many things.... i'll paraphrase...

1. elves do not cheat on their spouses, nor do unmarried elves cheat with married ones (it's unthinkable to them)

2. elves can just look into the eyes of other elves and tell who is married and who is not

3. the ceremony does not make the marriage -- consummation does. it may be accompanied by a ceremony or not.

4. elves instinctively are drawn to those who are good matches for them

5. elves do not rape


so, the line of "not wholly unwilling" is really problematic. i wonder about it in both a diagetic way (how all that we know of elven nature, elven love, and elven marriage stacks up with it -- within the story) and an exegetic way (how tolkien might have missed that detail in editing, how christopher might have missed it, etc.)

my take, knowing the answer to be unknowable, is that aredhel and eol were truly in love and truly willing. they had so much in common. they both fled the physically restrictive confines of kings who would fence them in, even if the boundaries were expansive. they did not like boundaries. they loved nature and wandering and exploring. they were both comfortable with feanorian-type personalities, and not limited to being comfortable with just the fingolfian-type personalities.

the problems came later, just like with feanor and nerdanel.

i do think eol's enchantment of the woods so that aredhel would be lost is a bit creepy. but i think the same thing about melian and thingol. but i think all four parties in both cases were... wholly willing.

i certainly do not think it romantic or desirable in any way that eol was such a control freak as time went on (he shares that quality with feanor, and it worked just as successfully for him).


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 12:59am

Post #81 of 381 (4125 views)
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sometimes [In reply to] Can't Post

 
sometimes they are (!).


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 1:09am

Post #82 of 381 (4115 views)
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prophecy or curse? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
eol was trying to kill his son, not just on impulse, but was toting around a poisoned blade to kill him/aredhel maybe both. a +lot+ of weighty premeditation.

so... he's already shown his prowess with enchantments in ensnaring aredhel to begin with... were his words to maeglin more than words, more that prophecy? were they a curse? to fell him, destroy his hopes for a place in gondolin, to perhaps try to make him the instrument of gondolin's destruction, and the destruction of the noldor, whom he hated?

just musings....


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 2:38am

Post #83 of 381 (4118 views)
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It sure doesn't sound like love to me. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
my take, knowing the answer to be unknowable, is that aredhel and eol were truly in love and truly willing. they had so much in common. they both fled the physically restrictive confines of kings who would fence them in, even if the boundaries were expansive. they did not like boundaries. they loved nature and wandering and exploring. they were both comfortable with feanorian-type personalities, and not limited to being comfortable with just the fingolfian-type personalities.


In the case of Melian and Thingol, we have this rapturous meeting: But he came at last to a glade open to the stars, and there Melian stood; and out of the darkness he looked at her, and the light of Aman was in her face. She spoke no word; but being filled with love Elwë came to her and took her hand, and straightway a spell was laid on him...
Yes, there was a spell, but the love came first, and was apparently mutual or she wouldn't have cast the spell; there are positive gestures from both parties.

The meeting of Eöl and Aredhel is quite different: Very fair she seemed to him, and he desired her; and he set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out, but drew ever nearer to his dwelling in the depths of the wood. .... And when Aredhel, weary with wandering, came at last to his doors, he revealed himself; and he welcomed her, and led her into his house. And there she remained; for Eöl took her to wife, and it was long ere any of her kin heard of her again.
Here Eöl is described as the active party entirely, and we see nothing but passive acceptance from Aredhel, apparently due to her weariness, enchantments, and then acceptance of a fait accompli.

Nor do I see that they had anything in common: she was sociable, friendly with the Noldor, and adventurous. He is antisocial, hates the Noldor, and most interested in his metalworking with the Dwarves. Not a good match at all.








Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 5:26am

Post #84 of 381 (4103 views)
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the reason i bought up [In reply to] Can't Post

 
the possibility of blond is because he is described as kin of thingol and high kin of the teleri. those of that kindred had silvery hair.

when i reread the chapter, i was surprised, as i had always imagined eol with dark hair.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 5:42am

Post #85 of 381 (4121 views)
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eol [In reply to] Can't Post

 
from my rereading of this chapter i have a different take on eol,aredhel, and their relationship.

tolkien clearly describes both in very similar ways. they both are contumacious of authority, both fled protected kingdoms that would have literally fenced them in, even though they would still have had huge areas in which to roam. (see my response to elizabeth upthread.)

also, tolkien sort of created a dilemma here. if eol captured her and forced her to wife, he'd be acting in a way that tolkien stated was impossible for elves. or are we to think that eol was so perverted and crooked that he was the only elf who ever forced another to have sex (and thus become his wife). i think it's pushing it to think the latter.

the meeting was wholly contrived, courtesy of his enchantments, but i think their love was legitimate. aredhel was extremely proud and self-willed. despite being exhausted from wandering, i don't think she would have mated/married eol if she didn't love him (again, see my post upthread re the list of things tolkien says about elves, love, marriage, and elvish adultery).

my take is that she saw haughty, dark, troubled characters (at least male ones) differently. she bonded closely with the sons of feanor (and i find it interesting that curufin at least felt enough of a connection with her to be piqued at eol for even mentioning that he was married to her -- kind of impressive from one of this bunch who were brought up by a father who had wholly negative feelings for indis and her children).

so, i think aredhel saw qualities in eol that others did not, or from which others shied away. but she was not detered.

of course, eol is very feanorian when aredhel wishes to go to gondolin. eol sees this as a betrayal. and the part about putting his son in chains if he wandered away. eol, as time passes, is a control freak, out to dominate. clearly his fea has become warped.

but all that seemed to come about in incremental steps. aredhel definitely does not want to stay with him past a certain point, but i think they both came together from positive emotions. and i'm not in any way condoning eol's use of enchantments.

i wonder what letter #131 has to say about eol?


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 5:53am

Post #86 of 381 (4109 views)
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yes, it's odd [In reply to] Can't Post

 
yes, it's odd that she didn't run to any of the fsons; they were her self-professed friends. and surely they would have protected her against eol.

aredhel may be very spirited and strong-willed and "fearless and hardy," but she does not strike me as a great thinker. her will seems to ever be a usurper over reason (or, as stannis baratheon would say, a "uzurper"). she always has to be on the go.

thought-wise, galadriel is the total opposite. galadriel is thoughtful, strategic. she is a chess master. aredhel is whack-a-mole. (tried to think of a better game analogy for the white lady, but i'm rather tired, and it's late.)

let me try again.

galadriel is a chess master. aredhel would excel at kickball, but as she was running towards first base she'd just get a whim to run clear across the playing field and into the woods and keep on running.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 5:56am

Post #87 of 381 (4108 views)
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i think [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i think maeglin is another chess master. the chapter notes he worked tirelessly to excel at everything and gain power and influence where he could.

+that+ is never the start of wonderful things, as far as tolkien is concerned.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 5:58am

Post #88 of 381 (4099 views)
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fwiw [In reply to] Can't Post

 
fwiw, aredhel is specifically described as having dark hair.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 6:03am

Post #89 of 381 (4111 views)
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turgon [In reply to] Can't Post

 
brethil tengwadil, agreed.... he loves his sister dearly, and he's acting emotionally, even though he's also acting as the king.

but what of his decree that anyone who accidentally discovers the path to the kingdom must die? how many innocents have perished because of that? why not just keep them in gondolin? either way, killing or imprisoning, anyone associated with the missing might send out a search party, so i'm not sure killing buys all that much more safety.

and it's incredibly distressing to think that this king, who is supposedly so enlightened, is causing both edain and eldar to be killed. his own, special kinslaying.

or do we think that it was a standing order that never got a chance to be carried out, because no one escept eol and tuor ever found the place?

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 6:08am

Post #90 of 381 (4091 views)
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yes, rereads can open new doors [In reply to] Can't Post

 
hanne, hello! mae govannen!

at this point, three different takes on that line have surfaced in this thread.... that the "hope" was maeglin, was idril, and was gondolin.

i'll have to do more considering, but i will state i love the idea it was maeglin, because he has so many connections to the different (and many) peoples of middle earth.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


sador
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 7:17am

Post #91 of 381 (4104 views)
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Oh! [In reply to] Can't Post

For some reason, I thought noWiz was leading this week!

Please receive my misdirected apology.



ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jun 5 2013, 10:19am

Post #92 of 381 (4094 views)
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What the Udun are elves doing executing other elves. [In reply to] Can't Post

Eol attempting to kill Maeglin is villanous and unjustified, but Eol's death is meant to be justice. But how can it possibly be that or even a righteous punishment under elven law when they know that elven death is an aberration that is against Eru's will. From a philosophical perspective any such execution is formally going against Eru. The Eldar would know this.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 11:10am

Post #93 of 381 (4081 views)
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Points clarified Telpemairo...thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
brethil tengwadil, agreed.... he loves his sister dearly, and he's acting emotionally, even though he's also acting as the king.
but what of his decree that anyone who accidentally discovers the path to the kingdom must die? how many innocents have perished because of that? why not just keep them in gondolin? either way, killing or imprisoning, anyone associated with the missing might send out a search party, so i'm not sure killing buys all that much more safety.
and it's incredibly distressing to think that this king, who is supposedly so enlightened, is causing both edain and eldar to be killed. his own, special kinslaying.
or do we think that it was a standing order that never got a chance to be carried out, because no one escept eol and tuor ever found the place?




Firstly - thank you for the clarification on Aredhel's coloring! I shall now picture her correctly!
I agree on your points about Maeglin - premeditation of power is a dire sign in a JRRT work - boding ill, and as he is described closing off more and more from the world the fall in inevitable.

Above, I do tend to think that very few, if any, found their way into Gondolin - ones we do know of are really vastly different outcomes...Huor and Hurin are treated with honor, even given Thorondor Taxi Service to depart...I think Eol stands rather alone because of his murderous behavior, particularly the use of poison. I know JRRT wrote of Gondolin and Earandil very early, in 1917, so I think it had a very elemental importance in the legend...it must remain safely isolated for Earandil to exist and make the journey to the Valar. So I *feel* like in his mind, maintaining Gondolin until its appointed task is done is paramount. As a story element in itself, I do think that with including the option that accidental tourists remain in Gondolin make the execution occurrence rare, if at all...excepting persons with poisoned darts under their cloaks. So I think your question may be right, a standing order but not a daily, common or routinely carried out sort of thing.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Jun 5 2013, 11:11am)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 11:24am

Post #94 of 381 (4094 views)
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lost secrets of the ancient masters [In reply to] Can't Post

Very true - we no longer know how ancient civilizations did a lot of the things they did: build the Pont du Gard, make Greek Fire, or make Damascus Steel as you say. Or if we do, its because of scientific and archaeological reconstruction (love those TV programs where they try to make a siege engine or erect an Egyptian obelisk). I think its because such skills used to be transmitted master-to-apprentice and so can be lost in a generation. And a lot of them were trade or military secrets. And a lot of the masters would not have been literate, so couldn't have written methods down even if they had wanted to.

And that kind of master/apprentice cycle would be greatly helped out by immortality, I think.

Our modern societies work around the mortality problem because knowledge is able to be documented and shared with Intellectual property laws to prevent someone simply copying your new steel making method without any benefit to yourself. The idea being that it is worth sharing your secret in a patent, in return for the rights you get over the invention for a time. My guess is that, on the whole we're better off now than then - that is, we can do many things better than the ancients could, though often by using methods and materials they didn't have.


I was meaning to muse that it is often a fantasy/sci-fi difference though: your fantasy hero usually wants a famous and ancient sword, but your sci-fi hero often wants the latest power armour and blaster (with exceptions, as always Wink.)

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 12:05pm

Post #95 of 381 (4057 views)
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Thought about options [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What would you have done with Eol?
Temporary imprisonment? Eternal imprisonment? Send him to Valinor for judgement? Death but in a different manner? Rehabilitation?
Also was Turgon's execution cold blooded? As in i doubt he would have been impartial or even coming to terms with what happened so i don't think it can be considered a cold blooded fully calculated, more of a reaction, but i see what you mean at same time :)




...like the ones you list: almost all of which may potentially put Gondolin at risk if Eol (openly spewing venom!) is left alive, which maybe is part of Turgon's decision...but really I think Eol was the cold-blooded one here, and Turgon was reacting emotionally in the heat of the moment. Maybe execution came more readily to mind because it had already been established as a potential penalty for wandering into Gondolin?

(Nice to see you here BTW!) Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 12:50pm

Post #96 of 381 (4064 views)
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GALLOPING INTO GONDOR !!!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
(i am galloping madly into gondor, my hooves striking loud, staccato echoes on the smooth paving stones of the white city.... i gallop full-force, spiraling up the tiers of the city until i get to the grassy flat-top of its pinnacle. i look out over the pale, flaxen fields and crisp, cool breezes skip over my shoulders. gondor, i am here !)

brethil tengwadil, absolutely agree that eol was the cold-blooded one and turgon was acting emotionally. still, it's troubling, even if understandable.

i'm still not understanding his standing order to slay all who would accidentally find the kindgom. how does that sit with ulmo, who has given turgon so much help? kinslaying is supposed to be ultra-bad, and yet there's an actual policy in place to have it executed (pun!)I.

it's nice and enlightened that hurin and huor and tuor get a pass... but do we think anybody was executed for finding the place?

also, re fenced-off places.... defense is one thing.... but these impregnable barriers (doriath, gondolin, aman)... do we get the feeling that, 'tho they may serve a purpose for a long run of time, ultimately such severe isolation is a bad thing? all of the elven kingdoms fell.... it seemed they were destined to fall... but there's something particular about the falls of doriath and gondolin, because of these barriers.

i'm thinking in my mind of a dossier on the elven kingdoms, their personality profiles, if you will. perhaps i'll pull that together.

thanks for all your wonderful contributions on this thread. : ) it's easy to see why you deserve your own forest. : )



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 3:27pm

Post #97 of 381 (4055 views)
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You're welcome ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad it made you laugh Smile

I think either way is fine, though I do love the idea of a cold, metallic voice asking for the blood of Turin. It's quite haunting.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 3:29pm

Post #98 of 381 (4043 views)
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Curse most likely [In reply to] Can't Post

That's essentially what I meant. I don't know that Eol was calling down Gondolin's destruction, but certainly seems to be cursing Maeglin to the same death as himself.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 3:31pm

Post #99 of 381 (4046 views)
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Possible, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm as white as they come but have a full-blooded Mexican aunt. We're kin, but don't look anything alike.

I still think dark hair is most likely, especially considering how "dark" everything else about him is.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




(This post was edited by Ardamírë on Jun 5 2013, 3:32pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:02pm

Post #100 of 381 (4055 views)
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you, sir, get a pass [In reply to] Can't Post

 
you, sir, get a pass, because you used the term "fortnight."

cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


imin
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:05pm

Post #101 of 381 (4073 views)
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Is that not a common word? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:06pm

Post #102 of 381 (4064 views)
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Not in America [In reply to] Can't Post

At least, not anywhere that I've ever lived.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




imin
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:08pm

Post #103 of 381 (4066 views)
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Oh yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

I forget what words are common over there (USA) - thinking back now i used the word fortnight whilst in the US but can't really remember anyone using it.

In the UK it is a common word, used whenever needed, lol.

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:15pm

Post #104 of 381 (4061 views)
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Two weeks [In reply to] Can't Post

We just generally say two weeks. Using "fortnight" just sounds so medieval lol Laugh

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 5 2013, 4:21pm

Post #105 of 381 (4079 views)
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It might not be meant to be a good deed [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien didn't spare the Noldor when idiocy and malice were shared to his characters. Tongue

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:22pm

Post #106 of 381 (4052 views)
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not in america [In reply to] Can't Post

 
not in america, unless you've opened up a book of shakespeare or christopher marlowe.


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:23pm

Post #107 of 381 (4051 views)
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whilst! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
imin gets points for using "whilst"! : )

another great word that is not to prevalent in the states.

cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 4:24pm

Post #108 of 381 (4044 views)
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Probably why people wanted to hear you talk! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I forget what words are common over there (USA) - thinking back now i used the word fortnight whilst in the US but can't really remember anyone using it.
In the UK it is a common word, used whenever needed, lol.




Between you accent and vocabulary to us you sound quite classically exotic! Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


imin
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:28pm

Post #109 of 381 (4047 views)
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Haha on behalf of Brits, thank you :P [In reply to] Can't Post

My dad said it helped him at work having an English accent - people assumed he was clever and made it easier for him to have authority.

At school kids liked it as i was the new foreign guy - the same exact thing would happen if an American came over to the UK - i think it's nice that, that happens.

Sorry for derailing the thread!

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 4:29pm

Post #110 of 381 (4057 views)
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The one "out" Turgon may have in this brutal policy [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that Eol was totally unknown to the guards, was from the Sindar, not Noldor (though of course many Sindar lived in Gondolin), and rather than kill him on the spot, they took him to Turgon for a decision. So maybe the order was "kill on sight," but in practice it meant capture, interrogate, imprison.

Then again, Tuor seems in peril of death entering the secret way to Gondolin, and it appears that only being accompanied by Voronwe kept him alive.

Another comparison of Elves killing wantonly is the secrecy of Nargothrond. Beren has to keep his ring aloft to stay alive, and later when Celegorm and Curufin usurp power, the kingdom becomes even more secretive and deadly to strangers. So Turgon's not alone in this, but that doesn't let him off the hook. How could these people be killing other Elves and Edain, or is that the Curse at work?


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 4:41pm

Post #111 of 381 (4036 views)
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All in good fun! [In reply to] Can't Post

The fact that we love hearing you Brits talk makes me wonder if our old Monarchial instincts are still kicking around...and if we had stayed under the same flag if the accents still would have diverged as much. (Coming out of Noo Yawk, of course, accent is the thing. Would've sounded a bit odd - Heya, howya dooin' ya' Majesty?) Wink And don't get me started on Boston...SmileShocked

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:45pm

Post #112 of 381 (4036 views)
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dunno [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i think it's sophistry to blame everything on the curse.

"help! i'm an immortal elda! i accidentally touched a goblet that feanor drank from and now i'm doing bad things! "

"help! i'm a mortal edain! i was at a bi-racial picnic with a servant of a steward of a marchwarden of an elf lord who once had a conversation with feanor! while i was sitting on the blanket, eating my lembas, the servant's shadow fell across my fork! now i'm behaving like a perfect bounder to everyone!"


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 4:51pm

Post #113 of 381 (4039 views)
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Curse at work...? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Is that Eol was totally unknown to the guards, was from the Sindar, not Noldor (though of course many Sindar lived in Gondolin), and rather than kill him on the spot, they took him to Turgon for a decision. So maybe the order was "kill on sight," but in practice it meant capture, interrogate, imprison.

Then again, Tuor seems in peril of death entering the secret way to Gondolin, and it appears that only being accompanied by Voronwe kept him alive.

Another comparison of Elves killing wantonly is the secrecy of Nargothrond. Beren has to keep his ring aloft to stay alive, and later when Celegorm and Curufin usurp power, the kingdom becomes even more secretive and deadly to strangers. So Turgon's not alone in this, but that doesn't let him off the hook. How could these people be killing other Elves and Edain, or is that the Curse at work?




Potentially, perhaps, it might be a part of the mistrust...but these places are willed by Ulmo himself, to the effect of guarding what ME will desperately need; did Ulmo make the importance known to them in the dreams and the talks, of how these places MUST stand for a certain time?

I don't know, in a Beleriand full of Orcs and Morgoth's mischief, I don't see total security as too much of a bad thing. One or two stragglers to save your whole people - I can see how desperate times might call for such a remedy. Also though, the idea of staying forever in a place of beauty (not too bad...) if you wandered in was put forth by Turgon, so I think that buys him some grace.

Ultimately I just don't see a ton of folks randomly finding the way in...which maybe influenced the harshness of contemplating the penalty; it's not like Doriath where you can accidentally walk smack into the Girdle at any point for hundreds of miles. I mean Eol REALLY went out of his way, and without being steps behind his family he never would have gotten in.

And you're right CG, he wasn't killed on sight - actually was treated quite well until we went all homicidal.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:54pm

Post #114 of 381 (4030 views)
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of course [In reply to] Can't Post

 
of course, there +is+ tolkien's unfinished tale about the elf who used feanor's lint brush (it was one of the treasures brought out of valinor on the swan ships).

he became petty and vain and wound up buying two very small dogs that he married to one another, in a tiny dog tux and a tiny dog gown. that one's for real, and that one's a tragedy.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 4:55pm

Post #115 of 381 (4026 views)
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(*hahahahah!!!!*) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
i think it's sophistry to blame everything on the curse.
"help! i'm an immortal elda! i accidentally touched a goblet that feanor drank from and now i'm doing bad things! "
"help! i'm a mortal edain! i was at a bi-racial picnic with a servant of a steward of a marchwarden of an elf lord who once had a conversation with feanor! while i was sitting on the blanket, eating my lembas, the servant's shadow fell across my fork! now i'm behaving like a perfect bounder to everyone!"




Those Elven bounders are the worst...
Many congratulations on galloping into Gondor, BTW! Welcome! AngelicCool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 4:57pm

Post #116 of 381 (4028 views)
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definitely treated well [In reply to] Can't Post

 
because he stated that he was aredhel's husband. which maybe should have been the tactic for anyone who stumbled upon gondolin. "i'm glorfindel's fiance! no, really!"


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 5:26pm

Post #117 of 381 (4036 views)
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Is it sad... [In reply to] Can't Post

that when you mentioned Voronwe accompanying Tuor I immediately thought of Doug Kane? I was like "wait, that's not right!" Laugh

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 5:28pm

Post #118 of 381 (4020 views)
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No - that's awesome!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
that when you mentioned Voronwe accompanying Tuor I immediately thought of Doug Kane? I was like "wait, that's not right!" Laugh




Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 5 2013, 5:51pm

Post #119 of 381 (4022 views)
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Not sad at all! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it is quite cool. Heart

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 6:03pm

Post #120 of 381 (4018 views)
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that reminds me [In reply to] Can't Post

 
voronwe, could you do me a favor? i need to get a message to varda about something...


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 6:12pm

Post #121 of 381 (4033 views)
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Doug Kane had extensive personal travel in Arda to write his book [In reply to] Can't Post

he just used Voronwe as an alias.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 6:34pm

Post #122 of 381 (4018 views)
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Just know... [In reply to] Can't Post

that you have officially taken over the name Voronwe in my mind. *Gasp!* What if you are Voronwe! No wonder you know so much about the Elder Days! Shocked

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 7:12pm

Post #123 of 381 (4013 views)
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thanks for the gondorian welcome : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
thanks for the gondorian welcome, tengwadil. : ) give me a tour of the place, when you get a chance.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 8:30pm

Post #124 of 381 (4000 views)
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It worked very well... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
he just used Voronwe as an alias.




...he has quite the inside scoop! WinkCool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 8:44pm

Post #125 of 381 (3986 views)
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The Greatest elf is Muhammad Alë, obviously! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 8:56pm

Post #126 of 381 (4125 views)
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oh, +you+! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
: )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 9:04pm

Post #127 of 381 (4132 views)
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I want to know if he wore Spock's pointy ear merchandise as an Elf disguise. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 9:12pm

Post #128 of 381 (4158 views)
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Or, perhaps, an uptight middle class English author? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the date rape analogy is entirely plausible. But when I read the "not unwilling" bit, I did wonder whether this was early 20th century middle class English understatement at work, whereby "not unwilling" is a euphemism for "extremely enthusiastic".
As in :
"to tea yesterday at Mr. Baggins, who always keeps a fine table. He suggested his Stilton cheese would go a lot better with yet another bottle of Old Winyard, and I was not unwilling. Alas! Terrible headache today, unable to face second breakfast."

Euphemism needed where being honest would touch on an embarrassing subject: female passion in this case. Recall that Tolkien's young years were the Edwardian period, barely out of Victorian prudery. Perhaps he felt he'd laid all these concerns were having to rest with that phrase???

It's at least possible: and would explain less troublingly why she stayed so long.
Not sure which theory I believe now, though I'd like the lady to have been happy at least for a while, soppy old non-wizard that I am.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 5 2013, 9:20pm

Post #129 of 381 (4152 views)
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Or an Anglo-Saxon scholar [In reply to] Can't Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litotes

******************************************
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
Brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
Hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
An age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
An age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
No man will spare another.

-From the Völuspá, 13th Century


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 5 2013, 9:49pm

Post #130 of 381 (4112 views)
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Late to the party and lots to catch up on! Again!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's taken me 30 mins just to read all of this- wow it has been busy!Smile
I find this whole chapter rather unsettling, elves just not behaving as one might expect etc.
Re Aredhel and Eol- this always seems a bit creepy to me, in the way that Eol ensnares her, but maybe she wanted to be ensnared. And how to interpret "she was not quite unwilling" ? I imagine she was rather intrigued by Eol- so different from her upright noble brother and different yet again from her Feanorian cousins. This in itself could have engendered attraction and whilst she may have been afraid, was also fascinated. Unfortunately, in my experience (not personal), relationships which begin thus do not usually have a good ending. Initially, Aredhel probably found Eol's obsession and possessive nature flattering and gratifying, as he appeared to care for her. But in the way of such control-freakery, the relationship soon becomes abusive. This is a classic in real world relationships too- the abuser insists that the abuse and control are for the other partner's "own good" and "because they love them" and even that the other person "drives them to it". I have seen it many times in people I have dealt with over the years. Unfortunately, many end up being unable to leave the situation and do not have the resolve that Aredhel eventually shows in leaving Eol. This is a case where her headstrong and prideful nature is an advantage. However, as well as the initial fascination, it is not clear whether rape was involved. Certainly, if this was the case, Eol may have seen it as a way of ensuring that Aredhel remained "his". It has overtones of real historical accounts, especially in medieval times, of heiresses being captured and raped, which virtually secured them as a wife for the predatory man. This almost happened twice to Eleanor of Aquitaine in the 12th century, after she divorced Louis of France and was riding back to Aquitaine to marry (albeit secretly) Henry Plantagenet. If either of the two men who made attempts had been successful, as great and powerful as Eleanor was in her own right, she would have been considered as good as the bride of the rapist.
Re Maeglin- I am sure that his father not even bothering to name him for 12 years would have had a negative effect, but to what extent is harder to say. Do elves grow up more slowly than humans? Would it have been such an issue since he had no contact with other young elves? I initially feel rather sorry for him, especially when his mother dies at the hand of his father and then his father dies- but obviously things go downhill in terms of his personality later on. I haven't read the later chapters for a long while, so cannot comment on this yet. Re the execution of Eol- well it is understandable in terms of what we know of his treatment of Aredhel, trying to kill his son, and killing Aredhel instead. Also, of course, the issue of him being able to find Gondolin again. I would have thought it more in keeping with TOlkien's writing to have Eol emprisoned- but then again, since he is immortal and, given his personality, unlikely to have repented and changed, what was the alternative? At the time Turgon did not know that Gondolin would fall soon (in elf terms) and could envisage having to imprison Eol, if not eternally, then certainly for a few thousand years. I guess pushing him off a cliff seemed preferable!

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 9:51pm

Post #131 of 381 (4124 views)
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great post [In reply to] Can't Post

 
great post, nowimë!

now, i don't think eol is a prince. i think he turned out to be a rather slimy character. but i have a +very+ hard time imagining the proud, willful, "fearless and hardy" aredhel being thoroughly cowed by him.

i think he set his enchanted snares, she wandered to his doorstep, and he revealed himself. she was tired of the wandering yes, but she's not a shrinking violet. i envision her going in for sup, and by and by the commonalities of their two natures revealed itself: strong wills, wanderers, a bit rebellious.

i think this was one of those situations where like attracted like, but over the long haul, was unsustainable. a lot of fire and passion at the beginning, but with two strong wills and not very flexible tendencies, it was bound to blow up.

and i find your take on the euphemisms so interesting! i can truly see tolkien, raised in that milieu, not being comfortable stating that a lady was "passionate." dewy love, longing gazes, yes, but the more firey passions, no.


very interesting post. thanks! : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 9:57pm

Post #132 of 381 (4116 views)
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elves and rape [In reply to] Can't Post

 
tolkien, in morgoth's ring, describes many customs of the eldar, and their nature.

when tolkien describes elven natures re love, marriage, etc., he says many things.... i'll paraphrase...

1. elves do not cheat on their spouses, nor do unmarried elves cheat with married ones (it's unthinkable to them)

2. elves can just look into the eyes of other elves and tell who is married and who is not

3. the ceremony does not make the marriage -- consummation does. it may be accompanied by a ceremony or not.

4. elves instinctively are drawn to those who are good matches for them

5. elves do not rape


so, i don't think eol raped aredhel. i think perhaps tolkien added that line ("not wholly unwilling") so that we wouldn't think eol was a rapist (which we might be inclined to think, if he were edain).

am in general agreement with you, elaen, re it starting out positively, then completely falling apart over time.


i'll see if i can dig up some passages.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 5 2013, 10:02pm

Post #133 of 381 (4112 views)
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I agree with most of this Maciliel [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder if some of Tolkien's reticence about women was just that he hadn't a lot of experience of friendships with women, except for his wife. His mother died when he was a child. He went to an all-boys school until the age of 18, then fought in WW1- again, no women in the army then. He returns and goes to study at Oxford, which was still very much a male bastion. He would likely not have associated much with female undergraduates. He then marries Edith at a relatively young age, but remains living and working in the all male Oxford environment. There weren't (as far as I remember) any female Inklings and it would probably have been considered "improper" for women to frequent the Eagle & Child during much of Tolkien's working life. Therefore, the main female influence would have been Edith, who he obviously based some of his strong females on, but one cannot keep repeating the same character. I don't know enough about Christopher to know what motivations he might have had to reduce his father's canon of women characters. He certainly seems to have done a hatchet job on some of them. I'm afraid that he always strokes me as somebody I wouldn't like very much if I met him. But then... if not for him, we would not even be having this discussion because the Sil, HOME, UT etc would not be out there!

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 5 2013, 10:05pm

Post #134 of 381 (4111 views)
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Thanks Maciliel [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't got round to reading Morgoth's Ring yet, so hadn't come across this. Well. I'm glad he didn't rape her, even if the rest of his behaviour was somewhat reprehensible!

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 5 2013, 10:07pm

Post #135 of 381 (4109 views)
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She felt something for him, no matter how twisted it was [In reply to] Can't Post

That's how I've interpreted the relationship. It wasn't real love, but some kind of unhealthy obsession from Eöl, and Aredhel in her part was drawn to him in an unhealthy way for her time - perhaps merely sexually. There is an undertone of him seducing her and her being excited about it all for a while...

That good girl from a good family who has strong will and is bored at home... who wants to see the world... gets on the bad part of the town and in the dark back alley... where she meets this shady guy and they get together for a while, in an abusive relationship that ends with her running away.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 5 2013, 10:14pm

Post #136 of 381 (4115 views)
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Maybe, maybe not.... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The fact that we love hearing you Brits talk makes me wonder if our old Monarchial instincts are still kicking around...and if we had stayed under the same flag if the accents still would have diverged as much. (Coming out of Noo Yawk, of course, accent is the thing. Would've sounded a bit odd - Heya, howya dooin' ya' Majesty?) Wink And don't get me started on Boston...SmileShocked


It's interesting how accents etc change even locally within a life time. In the SE corner of England where I live, the native accent is a soft country accent (not as marked as the general hobbity accents, but a little similar) and some of the older people still speak like this. It has then been diluted down the generations and the predominant accent, especially among young people is a harsher, more "Londonified" Estuary English- which I personally find quite ugly. When I was at primary school (under 11), I went to a very rural village school and a lot of the kids had rural accents and expressions (like "yourrn" for yours), but their kids don't.
Re words like fortnight- years ago, a friend and I tried to speak in Jane Austen-speak for a whole day, using even more ancient expressions like "se'ennight" meaning a week. It was very difficult and made us realise just how much every day speech has changed, even if we have no problem in reading Austen-era English

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 10:21pm

Post #137 of 381 (4102 views)
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i'm going to argue against my own point now [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i'm going to argue against my own point now.

later in the sil, there's a bit of text about celegorm and caranthir (?) -- well, two fsons, anyway -- and arwen luthien. i always had the impression that one of them was thinking of raping her to force a marriage.... but i'll have to reread... certainly that impression was before i read what tolkien said about elves not raping.

but perhaps that incident was a situation in which a male elf was contemplating rape, and it's just an astounding aberration.... perhaps he (or he and eol) were the only ones who ever contemplated it.


cheers ---


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 5 2013, 10:27pm)


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 5 2013, 10:21pm

Post #138 of 381 (4102 views)
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That's ok Feanoriel- we like interesting typos... [In reply to] Can't Post

don't we Brethil??....Evil We've had some good ones of recent weeks, but this one is right up there with them!Wink I wonder what "martial love" might mean in an ME context- XenArwen & Aragorn perhaps?Crazy As you say, it could have been worse- could have been martian love!!CrazyWink

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 10:22pm

Post #139 of 381 (4087 views)
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estatuary accent [In reply to] Can't Post

 
elaen, can you point someone out who has an estatuary accent? i'm not sure i know what that sounds like -- and i've been wondering a se'enweek!


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 10:23pm

Post #140 of 381 (4094 views)
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marzipan love! // [In reply to] Can't Post

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 5 2013, 10:24pm

Post #141 of 381 (4105 views)
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Er... arwen??? [In reply to] Can't Post

CrazyShe wasn't around at this time- now I am confused!UnimpressedWink

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 10:26pm

Post #142 of 381 (4083 views)
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now +that's+ a typo --- [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i meant to type "luthien," but forgot how to spell it, and forgot that it had more letters.


cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 10:33pm

Post #143 of 381 (4105 views)
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Sigh - I agree completely Elaen! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
don't we Brethil??....Evil We've had some good ones of recent weeks, but this one is right up there with them!Wink I wonder what "martial love" might mean in an ME context- XenArwen & Aragorn perhaps?Crazy As you say, it could have been worse- could have been martian love!!CrazyWink




Probably why I didn't bat an eye at that one, Faenoriel.....its really bad when someone distracts me with a Thorin comment, like a cat with a laser pointer, and any number of oddly apropos yet Freudian things happen with my keyboard. Evil And Elaen, you have an uncanny knack of discovering them...!

Hmmm. Martial love - I'm picturing white gi's with Elven-house insignias, chocolate berries served on Chinese stars, and candles.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 5 2013, 10:35pm

Post #144 of 381 (4074 views)
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Hmmm- might have to think on that one... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure who you might have come across- I suppose the singer, Adele, who won an Oscar for "Skyfall" is quite Estuary or Jessie J (if you've come across her). Actor wise it's more difficult, because they often use different accents in different parts. Have you ever seen the British soap, "Eastenders"?- most of the characters in that sound more Estuary than Cockney (I don't watch it myself, but have seen enough trailers for it)

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


imin
Valinor


Jun 5 2013, 10:39pm

Post #145 of 381 (4081 views)
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Estuary English [In reply to] Can't Post

Is the accent that is spreading across large parts of the South of England as THE accent. A family member of mine moved to London and now speaks with an Estuary accent and we tease her about it all the time and tell her she is too posh to visit us now, haha.

Lots of accents have softened over time due to the ease at which people can move about and from radio and television. Along with the changes that happen over time as Elaen32 points out.

When my grandparents were young their accent/dialect were thick enough and different enough from regular English that it was said they could learn Norwegian as easily as English.

I think it's sad that we are losing this regional variation.

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 5 2013, 11:37pm

Post #146 of 381 (4091 views)
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Inevitable language change? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

It's interesting how accents etc change even locally within a life time. In the SE corner of England where I live, the native accent is a soft country accent (not as marked as the general hobbity accents, but a little similar) and some of the older people still speak like this. It has then been diluted down the generations and the predominant accent, especially among young people is a harsher, more "Londonified" Estuary English- which I personally find quite ugly. When I was at primary school (under 11), I went to a very rural village school and a lot of the kids had rural accents and expressions (like "yourrn" for yours), but their kids don't.
Re words like fortnight- years ago, a friend and I tried to speak in Jane Austen-speak for a whole day, using even more ancient expressions like "se'ennight" meaning a week. It was very difficult and made us realise just how much every day speech has changed, even if we have no problem in reading Austen-era English




So do you think just with the distance and time - even if we shared a common government - the speech patterns would have still diverged between the UK and America?

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 12:00am

Post #147 of 381 (4084 views)
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just by coincidence... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i came across these linguistic maps...

linguistic maps of the u.s.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 12:04am

Post #148 of 381 (4072 views)
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sitting in the corner thinking... [In reply to] Can't Post

about Elvish powers.

My thoughts are not based on anything resembling canon, but I always had it in mind that each Elf was endowed with a special gift -- usually a gift involving some mental, emotional, or personality trait. So, a gift could be mind-reading (rare), empathy, charm, remaining hidden in plain sight, foresight (Elrond), .., the list goes on as far as the imagination takes it. Perhaps because I have read and heard things like "you have the gift of foresight," and Eol's/Maeglin's gift that his "thought could read the secrets of hearts beyond the mists of words."

I don't think that mind-reading could possibly be that common. 1) it would drive most people mad or to seclusion and 2) would any of them have acted so foolishly!? It seems unlikely.

For some, like Feanor, the gift was so powerful that it effectively ran (and ruined) his life. Part of the education of young elves and Young Elves (here I distinguish between the growing up of an individual elf and the growing up of the Race of Elves) is to be able to control or use their gift without being destructive. In this aspect Feanor gets a rather dismal grade...

Eol is interesting because he is what I would perceive an untrained mind-reader to be like. Solitary. Despising things others like. Probably he went to all the festivals and dances and when he asked a pretty young girl to dance he heard her first reaction ("Umm, No.") but from her mouth comes, "Of course I would be happy to dance with you, Eol!" After hearing enough discontinuity between the thoughts and words of his fellow Teleri, I imagine he had enough. He became angry and full of malice and at that point even the Sun mocked his being.

The dwarves admired his smithing; he found a people who appreciated him. Further into the caves and further into himself he delved and once again another Elf falls prey to a gift he cannot control.

So much for greatness...it seems in Tolkien's mind being great carries a very heavy weight. Perhaps that's why he loved Hobbits...


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 12:11am

Post #149 of 381 (4079 views)
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wow! really great post! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
really great and thoughtful post, telain! you are certainly reaping the benefits of sitting in your corner and thinking (as are we).

love your take on eol and his powers. and, if mind-reading ability +was+ common among elves, i would think that there'd have to be a counter-balance of "mind-guarding" -- which is what it sounds like tolkien is describing when he's talking abou maeglin hoping to be able to read aredhel's unguarded mind, to find out about gondolin.

as a side note, i read a scifi book a long time ago. in it, there was a species that could read minds. among that species, there was total openess, and shielding one's thoughts was considered rude.

'tho an interesting concept, i think most of us would be extremely uncomfortable around any and all who could read our minds. it might very well lead to reduced contact.

quick note about early eol -- before he holed up in nan emloth, he was in the forest of region. it's unclear if he was more social there, but for some reason, that's my impression. he fled (i think tolkien actually uses the word, "fled") when melain wrapped her girdle around the area -- which implies that it not only kept people out, but kept people in.


great post! : )

cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 12:15am

Post #150 of 381 (4071 views)
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btw [In reply to] Can't Post

 
... whenever i see "caranthir" i +hear+ "carnathir" --- like he was some kind of dinosaur. which i guess, in a way, he was.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 12:36am

Post #151 of 381 (4088 views)
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my thoughts on the Eol and Aredhel question [In reply to] Can't Post

or, rather, my feelings.

When I read Thingol and Melian's meeting, I felt spellbound. Knowing now their "interesting" relationship (which in some ways infuriates me and in some ways feels so much like a "real" relationship) even makes it even a bit more magical. That feeling of being struck by someone who attracts you and the world seems somehow brighter, happier. I felt from reading the moment of their meeting that they would have an enduring relationship. And so far...

Eol and Aredhel. Every time I read this chapter I feel...wrong. I don't feel that spark, that spellbinding moment that made my reading of Thingol and Melian's meeting so special. Instead I feel more than a little squicked out (Maciliel word!) I feel uneasy and I cannot see how this chapter is going to end well (and lo! and behold! it doesn't!)

"not wholly unwilling" is problematic. I think "wholly" is the problem word. Like NoWiz mentions above, the English propensity for writing positive exaggeration in the negative (i.e., I was not unwilling to partake in a glass of miruvor with Gildor Inglorion!...) is a consideration, but the "wholly" puts it into an entirely different context. Now, it is tinged with real negativity and all I feel from that statement is an impending sense of dread. She will not be happy...

Like Elizabeth, I am not sure it is love in the truest, romantic Tolkien-sense. Eol is not healthy. Using trickery to ensnare a mate is never seen as a good thing, unless of course you are only using trickery to meet the person, and then the person has the opportunity to see the real you and the person has the ability to make a decision about whether they want to be with you. Aredhel is lost, confused, exhausted. Maybe she does see something in Eol, but can we really say that she is in right mind or has full mental capacity? I am inclined to say "No."

And then both she and her son are essentially held prisoner. While I do agree with Maciliel that Tolkien's Elves do not rape, I think it is safe to say that "healthy" Elves do not rape. Every description of Eol points to a severe case of unhealthy and while I think "rape" is still a bit too harsh (part of Aredhel was willing), I think it is close enough to be called a grey area and part of why we the reader are meant to not side with Eol (not even from the beginning, as we were with Feanor.)

In any event, even when I try to read this chapter in a neutral way, I cannot read Eol in a way that is remotely sympathic. I cannot read their relationship in a neutral way. I see it as very, very unhealthy and with Tolkien, that is never a good thing.


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 6 2013, 12:42am

Post #152 of 381 (4077 views)
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I confused an LA Customs guy with that. [In reply to] Can't Post

Customs: "How long do you intend to be in the States?"
Me: "A fortnight."
Customs: "How long?"
Me: "A fortnight." (long pause) "Two weeks."
Customs: "Oh, right. What was that word you said?"

It hadn't occurred to me that 'fortnight' wasn't a well-known word internationally, like 'cat'.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 12:49am

Post #153 of 381 (4084 views)
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They probably used "fortnight' for the next two weeks [In reply to] Can't Post

In every sentence, just for fun...! Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 12:51am

Post #154 of 381 (4075 views)
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I really am "at" the party...somewhere...! [In reply to] Can't Post

And I've been trying to respond, but every time I log on there are a million more posts! That is a testament to your thoughtful discussion, Maciliel. It is awesome (in the original sense!) and thank you for putting much thought and care into it.

Absolutely the mind-guarding. Meant to put that in there and you are absolutely right (also part of my imagination about the gifts...)

Eol did flee from Melian's Girdle (chuckle). I think by that time he must have been tired of all the half-truths he was privy to.

I've been watching Star Trek:TNG via Netflix. The totally open-minded society you described made me instantly think of the empathic/mind-reading-ish Betazoids... And yes, they were totally open (so much that their wedding ceremonies were performed completely unclothed...) But that only works when everyone is that way, otherwise there is an instant power differential between two people.

Which brings me back to Eol. He had to feel rather superior with this ability and it would certainly give him the arrogance to ensnare Aredhel and posture against SonsofFeanor and the other Noldor. And the arrogance to try to kill his son instead of letting him stay in Gondolin.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 12:55am

Post #155 of 381 (4071 views)
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another fantastic post, telain [In reply to] Can't Post

 
another fantastic post, telain. : )


[telain]
When I read Thingol and Melian's meeting, I felt spellbound. Knowing now their "interesting" relationship (which in some ways infuriates me and in some ways feels so much like a "real" relationship) even makes it even a bit more magical. That feeling of being struck by someone who attracts you and the world seems somehow brighter, happier. I felt from reading the moment of their meeting that they would have an enduring relationship. And so far...

Eol and Aredhel. Every time I read this chapter I feel...wrong. I don't feel that spark, that spellbinding moment that made my reading of Thingol and Melian's meeting so special. Instead I feel more than a little squicked out (Maciliel word!) I feel uneasy and I cannot see how this chapter is going to end well (and lo! and behold! it doesn't!)
[/telain]

so agree with you here... agreed, agreed, +agreed+. full of foreboding. but i rather felt that way as soon as aredhel was so determined to leave gondolin, even if it was alone.

(btw, "squick" comes from the quenya word, quakko, which means "i'm about to lose my lembas, you'd better move over by gwindor.")



[telain]
Like Elizabeth, I am not sure it is love in the truest, romantic Tolkien-sense. Eol is not healthy. Using trickery to ensnare a mate is never seen as a good thing, unless of course you are only using trickery to meet the person, and then the person has the opportunity to see the real you and the person has the ability to make a decision about whether they want to be with you. Aredhel is lost, confused, exhausted. Maybe she does see something in Eol, but can we really say that she is in right mind or has full mental capacity? I am inclined to say "No."
[/telain]

well, it's my reading that eol (and i'm +no+ eol apologist) did use his powers to +meet+ her. once she as at his door, he emerged and things went their natural way.

i suppose i see aredhel as a much stronger character, willingly making her own choice, passionately making her own choice. i do think her fea and eol's had a lot in common. 'tho i wouldn't say hers was unhealthy, but perhaps i would say that she let her will rule her mind, her caprice rule her mind. i think she made a dreadful choice that almost seems doomed from the get-go, but i do think there was happiness there at the start for both of them. then they both relaxed back into their personalities, and everything disintergrated.


[telain]
And then both she and her son are essentially held prisoner. While I do agree with Maciliel that Tolkien's Elves do not rape, I think it is safe to say that "healthy" Elves do not rape. Every description of Eol points to a severe case of unhealthy and while I think "rape" is still a bit too harsh (part of Aredhel was willing), I think it is close enough to be called a grey area and part of why we the reader are meant to not side with Eol (not even from the beginning, as we were with Feanor.)
[/telain]


yes, it's hard sometimes to make assessments about characters or events when tolkien in other texts says, "this is the rule." he was quite adamant about the rape and adultery stuff, so it leaves me with an unsettled mind. i'll dig up the passages, 'tho i know they won't settle anything; i think, 'tho, they will be interesting for those who have not read them.


[telain]
In any event, even when I try to read this chapter in a neutral way, I cannot read Eol in a way that is remotely sympathic. I cannot read their relationship in a neutral way. I see it as very, very unhealthy and with Tolkien, that is never a good thing.
[/telain]

yes, eol turns quite quickly into a loathsome creature. +loathsome+. and cursing his son to boot (or was that pure prophecy)?

also -- does anyone find it curious that tolkien has maeglin consistently and persistently doing and saying nothing while eol and turgon have it out? i have to go reread that part.


cheers, and thanks again for the great post --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 12:56am

Post #156 of 381 (4058 views)
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what [In reply to] Can't Post

 
what is this "cat" you speak of?

is that some sort of new zealand fruit? is it good in a martini?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 12:59am

Post #157 of 381 (4070 views)
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The attempt on Maeglin [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Which brings me back to Eol. He had to feel rather superior with this ability and it would certainly give him the arrogance to ensnare Aredhel and posture against SonsofFeanor and the other Noldor. And the arrogance to try to kill his son instead of letting him stay in Gondolin.




That's the darkest deed really - I can even understand the attempt to take a spouse's life (I am sure many of us can...LOL) but that Eol's choice was possession of Maeglin or Maeglin's death at his hand, sealing both their fates, is to me a far darker and twisted, to the point of being unnatural, way of thinking.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 1:03am

Post #158 of 381 (4061 views)
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are you [In reply to] Can't Post

 
are you really at a party right now? neat!

and, totally welcome.... sorry i've been awol for the past week or so... been trying to scrounge up a new job, and have been busy with interviews and preparing and such.

no way! i was +totally+ thinking about betazoids re mind-reading and open societies! +and+ i've +also+ been (re)watching st:tng! ha!

you're right about the betazoid weddings and the power differential. except when you're speaking about lwaxana troi. btw, did you see the game of thrones episode last week? there was a nude/clothes power differential in one key scene, that flipped the power to the naked person.


back to maeglin -- the awfulness, the +awfulness+ of a parent who would willingly, intentionally kill his / her child. the utter selfishness. hardly a better example of one who thinks of her / his progeny as property.

(psssst..... are there, by chance, any hot dwarves at this party of yours? if so, if you were to introduce me, i would not be wholly unwilling...)

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 1:04am

Post #159 of 381 (4081 views)
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a list of unnatural elves [In reply to] Can't Post

 
1. eol
2. maeglin

...... ?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 6 2013, 1:07am

Post #160 of 381 (4060 views)
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To an extent, yes. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So do you think just with the distance and time - even if we shared a common government - the speech patterns would have still diverged between the UK and America?


Maybe they would be a bit less marked, but as I said previously, and Imin has implied in his posts, there is still a lot of difference in speech patterns just within the UK. There undoubtably is in the US too- most American dialects I have no problems with, but there are a few, eg some of the Deep South accents that I really have to listen carefully to

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 1:26am

Post #161 of 381 (4052 views)
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That's awesome! [In reply to] Can't Post

Poor customs guy. If only he had read Tolkien, he would know. Laugh

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 1:27am

Post #162 of 381 (4048 views)
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Thanks for the map, Telpemairo, and a question... [In reply to] Can't Post

...about Aredhel, and her desire to wander 'as had been her wont in Valinor'...the entire episode another product of the Summoning, and that pervasive Elven desire for the things they had lost?

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 1:28am

Post #163 of 381 (4044 views)
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I think we should all wear them // [In reply to] Can't Post

with our RR kilts, Ardamire's custom editions.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 1:32am

Post #164 of 381 (4032 views)
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huh.... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
personally, i don't get the feeling that aredhel was wandering because she was subconsciously looking/longing for valinor...

my take is that she's always had a restless fea. perhaps, in a way, it was very elvish for her to wander... by wandering and exploring, elves got a chance (or, for some, would have gotten a chance) to meet all of middle earth, and shepherd it.

what are your thoughts, tengwadil?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 1:38am

Post #165 of 381 (4040 views)
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I agree on restlessness [In reply to] Can't Post

It just struck me because of how it was written, recalling Valinor...not sure how much shepherding she was looking to do, it feels like she had very specific reasons for travelling.
I may be reading into the sentence too much, of course! Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 1:41am

Post #166 of 381 (4034 views)
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ha! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
agreed... i don't see aredhel as a shepherd... just saying that perhaps elvish wandering was part of the plan to have them shepherd. : )

perhaps tolkien, with the valinor mention, was just nudging the reader to remember that valinor was a lost paradise.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 1:48am

Post #167 of 381 (4045 views)
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"Wrongness" on first read [In reply to] Can't Post

In terms of literary analysis, this chapter has every right to be there. But in terms of reader experience, on my first read I felt like I'd blundered into another book. This wasn't the fairy tale romance that I saw everywhere else in Tolkien, and even though other chapters can be dark, this one was much darker, and it wasn't just hiding from the Sun in the forest (though that was dark and creepy too). Do you suppose Tolkien intended for this chapter to remain the way it was, or did he have edits in mind? Would there be a more sympathetic backstory to Eol? Or would Aredhel have deserted him not of fear, but from homesickness and knowing he wouldn't fit in with the Noldor? I'm not saying Tolkien should have softened things, but it sorta seems like he would have. There's a lot of misery in the chapters to come, but none of them feel twisted like this one.


squire
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 1:48am

Post #168 of 381 (4079 views)
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"He's done some bad things, but I know he has a good side that needs me." [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure where exactly it fits in, but this sub-thread reminded me of an observation of Tolkien's, found in his famous 6-page letter* to his son on the subject of women, marriage, and sex:
If [women] have any delusion it is that they can 'reform' men. They will take a rotter open-eyed, and even when the delusion of reforming him fails, go on loving him.
So to date-rape and indirectly expressed sexual arousal, perhaps add hopeless idealism as a lens for understanding Eol's actions.

*Letter 43, from 1941. It's a classic among Tolkien's letters and well worth mining for insights into his own, rather than his authorial, ideas about how women and men fit together.



squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 1:52am

Post #169 of 381 (4038 views)
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Maciliel has made a thread that's #3 in replies in all RR history (so far). // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 1:53am

Post #170 of 381 (4030 views)
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Somehow that doesn't surprise me! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:07am

Post #171 of 381 (4035 views)
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thanks for the reference [In reply to] Can't Post

 
thanks for the reference, squire : )

i'll be scampering upstairs soon to reference #43.


i do think it may shed some light on aredhel and eol.... but i'm also (again) trying to balance it with what tolkien says about elves as a race.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 2:08am

Post #172 of 381 (4028 views)
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Thanks for the quote, squire! [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't remember that letter. Does it - or any other source - explain from where Tolkien had gotten this opinion. I agree with it, but had he known some woman trapped in destructive, dysfunctional relationship? Or was it more a general observation formed from sources such as academic texts, newspaper news and literature?

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:10am

Post #173 of 381 (4028 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
to be more accurate (and, quite honestly) +everyone+ is making this thread the #3 in rr postings.

and, i'll also add.... i only kick-started the discussion... and it's not hard to talk about what tolkien writes.

(if only telain will let me know about whether she would introduce me to some hot dwarves at her party -- +again+ -- i would not be wholly unwilling.... )


(ok... i'm starting to crack myself up with that...)


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 2:11am

Post #174 of 381 (4037 views)
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Link. It must be seen. [In reply to] Can't Post

Or is it this one? Blush

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

(This post was edited by Faenoriel on Jun 6 2013, 2:12am)


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 2:12am

Post #175 of 381 (4033 views)
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Attention! Dark Elf on the Psych Ward [In reply to] Can't Post

"twisted" is a good word CG, and it makes me think of the mutilated Elf to Orc progression that has plagued several discussion threads in the past few months!

I think Eol was "normal" at some point. I think perhaps he was a bit of a recluse -- either due to his mind-"reading" abilities, or to a introverted personality, or both. But something did start to twist him. I have a hunch it is hatred of the Noldor.

1) He loves the stars and hates the Sun. Without perhaps his knowing it, the Sun is the work of Varda, but more importantly it rises with the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth (Sun = Noldor). The stars are the state of Middle-earth prior to Noldor interference in "his" world. Therefore he transfers his hate of the Noldor to Anar.

2) He desires Aredhel, but his actions toward her and Maeglin more akin to incarceration and possession. Aredhel is Noldo, and Maeglin is more like his mother than his father. This has to be a slap in the face to Eol. Even his son is like the people he hates!? By trying to "keep" them both, he exercises his hold over two Noldo, which proves his superiority over them (at least it probably does in his own mind.) It is interesting to me that the Noldor he meet "out in the world" easily outwit him or overpower him.

3) He tries to convince Maeglin that Maeglin is Teleri (when it is obvious he shares more of his mother's Noldo characteristics.)

4) His greatest craftsmanship is a decidedly "Noldor" craft: smithing. Again trying to outdo the Noldor by taking on their skills and friendship with the dwarves (Aule-proxies).

He is constantly competing with and trying to possess that which the Noldor hold dear -- a sure case of jealousy begets anger. And with that much anger and jealousy and seclusion (apart from the servants -- how messed up must they have been?!!?) "twisted" would be the good days.

In short, I imagine if Eol were around today I'm sure his psychiatric bills would be through the roof...


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 2:24am

Post #176 of 381 (4110 views)
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Oh! but this IS the party! [In reply to] Can't Post

(Part of the "late to the party and trying to catch up" subject line that Elaen and I seem very familiar with.)

Trying but failing to catch up and only managing to sit in a corner of the party and toss out half-thought-out thoughts from time to time. I may be overwhelmed, but it is a good overwhelming.

But I promise, if any ruggedly handsome, stocky fellows in long cloaks and mithril chain mail make their presence known to me, (at a party or otherwise) I will happily introduce them to you! And, oh yes, the long, flowing (yet still ruggedly handsome) hair... Shall I stop there?

But since we seem to be rather fixated on it in this discussion thread, do you have a hair colour preference? Wink

For what is worth, I think Eol had dark-ish, rather dull hair. Neither really black, rich brown, nor shining red or gold. Comes from hiding from the sun (good for highlights!) and working so much in the smithy (all that dust!)...

Yep, it is getting late...


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:27am

Post #177 of 381 (4113 views)
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wow [In reply to] Can't Post

 
wow, telain... thanks to you i'm getting a really interesting picture of eol.

1. re the sun... boy, am i glad that eol didn't know anything about the sun = edain (!)

2. agreed, agreed, agreed. it's probably icing on the cake that aredhel is a royal noldo. although, i do think that when eol first saw aredhel, he didn't necessarily know she was noldo. he just saw a vision, which fit very much with his idea of beauty (he loved the stars and the twilight and the night -- she, dressed in white, with her dark waves of hair must have looked very bewitching -- perhaps he was ensnared as well).

3. wondering about maeglin, who is half noldo, living with a father who is continually denigrating half of who he is. the perfect recipe for self-hatred and an inferiority complex. is this why maeglin is an over-achiever?

4. he probably feels the noldor are his artistic rivals, but i get the feeling that he is honestly gifted and honestly inspired with smithwork. it seems natural for anyone who is into smithing to hook up with the dwarves and confer about all sorts of things.


jealousy, rivalry, a feeling of inferiority.

i'll also add to the mix... theft.... the super-race noldor sweep in and start carving up middle earth and mining and building and delving. not only is their arrival linked with the sun, but also with morgoth's new forays. true, they began a bit before the arrival of the noldor, but they began approximately the same time. eol (tolkien states) definitely sees the noldor as thieves and stormcrows.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 2:29am

Post #178 of 381 (4120 views)
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See, we're blaming the wrong person here [In reply to] Can't Post

That little tramp Aredhel trespasses in Eol's nice, happy forest solitude, and when our shy boy gives her the slightest bit of flirtation, she gets all "not wholly unwilling" on him and winds up pregnant, saddling him with a brat. The schemer! He does the best he can to support them, and what thanks does he get? She splits with the kid without so much as a goodbye note, and she probably stole the silverware too. Nobly determined to make amends and save their marriage, he follows her through great adversity, hoping to redeem himself in her eyes, only to get killed by her savage family. Eol is the victim here, it's that White Lady's fault!!

(Remember that 1990s song?
"All that she wants is another baby
She's gone tomorrow boy")


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 2:30am

Post #179 of 381 (4109 views)
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Don't we all know the mythology is written by the Noldor? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:35am

Post #180 of 381 (4091 views)
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+oh+ [In reply to] Can't Post

 
oh.... this +so+ made me smile a crooked, minx-y smile and also made me laugh out loud....

[telain]
But I promise, if any ruggedly handsome, stocky fellows in long cloaks and mithril chain mail make their presence known to me, (at a party or otherwise) I will happily introduce them to you! And, oh yes, the long, flowing (yet still ruggedly handsome) hair... Shall I stop there?

But since we seem to be rather fixated on it in this discussion thread, do you have a hair colour preference?
[/telain]


great aule at his forge! no, no hair color preference.... i'd be fortunate enough to just make a nice, new, dwarfish acquaintance. i'm certainly in your debt.


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 2:36am

Post #181 of 381 (4094 views)
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This post is getting so long [In reply to] Can't Post

it's time for someone to say, "Wait, I thought we were going to discuss Bilbo and Smaug this week. Who the heck is Maeglin?"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:37am

Post #182 of 381 (4092 views)
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didn't they [In reply to] Can't Post

 
didn't they take one of eol's special swords? made from galvorn?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 2:57am

Post #183 of 381 (4086 views)
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and also "wow" [In reply to] Can't Post

re: Aredhel on first Eol sighting. Agreed! I don't think he knew she was Noldo right away, but that's jealousy for you! What you covet is what you despise (did I just reference Silence of the Lambs?! Where is this post going?!) For more on this, see below...

re: Maeglin the over-achiever. Yes, I do think so! And now I am wondering if this has something to do with his lack of voice during the Turgon/Eol showdown. He cannot speak against his father, because perhaps in some (again) twisted way it was his father's derision of his Noldo half that pushed him to excel? And what if Eol is watching him over-achieve and senses it is his Noldo half that is to "blame" for it? That has to twist the galvorn knife that is already in his back.

re: smithing. It is almost as though "fate" keeps dealing Eol a twisted hand. You hate the Noldor? Well, you are going to excel at the one thing they also excel at. Don't like your own people? Let us introduce you to the dwarves (did we mention the Noldor also had rather good dealings with their father Aule?) Your concept of perfect beauty? Aredhel, The White Lady of the (you guessed it!) Noldor! No way Eol is coming out of this without a detour to the trauma centre.

re: Noldor as Thieves. Excellent. Yes, Eol has to be thinking that they've waltzed in and think they own the place. It's sad, really. Because I do think he was gifted as well. But he could not see past the artistic rivalry and perhaps he compared himself to all the Noldor (and therefore sensed failure in himself when he could not measure up in other areas.) Why could they not have just stayed in Valinor? Why did they have to come and take "my" land? A side note: it is interesting to me that as much as he hates the Noldor, he has fled from his own people... And for how much he tells Maeglin he is Teleri, he still won't associate with any Teleri (apart from those poor servants...)

So, how about this little gem:


Quote
...and Eol was brought to Turgon's hall and stood before his high seat, proud and sullen. Though he was amazed no less than his son at all that he saw, his heart was filled the more with anger and with hate of the Noldor.


It is not as if he did not recognise and appreciate the beautiful things the Noldor accomplished -- it's just that he hated them and therefore could not openly accept those accomplishments. And I suppose he wish he had had a hand in them as well.

I know someone somewhere in this thread also mentioned inferiority complex as well as the fact that the Kinslaying hatred never has a good outcome. Absolutely. I think all these things have twisted Eol into something that will affect (In fine Feanorian fashion) more than just himself.

In fact, his desire to keep himself and his "possessions" away from everyone else was probably a good idea. In theory. And only with people who actually want to remain in seclusion. So, actually not good in practice at all.


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 3:08am

Post #184 of 381 (4108 views)
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Not the Greatest, but the Darkest Elf? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree, Brethil, and the way Tolkien wrote that scene was clear to me. So full of anger -- as if he is taking out all of his hatred and jealousy toward the Noldor out on his son. No wonder Maeglin...well, that is for another discussion.

But he couldn't actually take it out on the Noldor, could he? (He does, accidentally, by killing Aredhel). Eol is no match for Turgon and even Curufin (several more blows to his already shaky ego). Curufin twists the knife a little further and deeper by basically saying "I'm letting you go, but only just because you said the name Aredhel."

To quote a line from Firefly "He is a sad little king of a sad little Nan (Elmoth)" (Ok, I might have changed that a bit.)

And I can barely stay awake any longer! I am afraid that when I log on tomorrow there will be several hundred more posts and I will be catching up yet again!


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 3:10am

Post #185 of 381 (4091 views)
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great quote [In reply to] Can't Post

 
great quote, telain --- when i read it in your post, eol struck me as +quite+ morgothian....

[telain]
So, how about this little gem:


Quote
...and Eol was brought to Turgon's hall and stood before his high seat, proud and sullen. Though he was amazed no less than his son at all that he saw, his heart was filled the more with anger and with hate of the Noldor.


It is not as if he did not recognise and appreciate the beautiful things the Noldor accomplished -- it's just that he hated them and therefore could not openly accept those accomplishments. And I suppose he wish he had had a hand in them as well.
[/telain]


that is quite the emotional interior eol has going at that moment.... taking in all that beauty, all that accomplishment, and it souring in a +second+ to utter hatred. i also like what you said re his wanting to have been part of making it. i, as a creative person myself, sometimes feel this way when i'm admiring someone else's work (but +not+ in an eol way!). great insight there.

and, was it you who was talking about the elvish slide to orc-dom upthread? eol seems +ripe+. frankly, if he were edain, and sauron gave him the right jewelry, he'd be the top ringwraith.


cheers ----

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 3:16am

Post #186 of 381 (4101 views)
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i just had a thought... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
not only eol hating the noldor, not only hating that his son looks like a noldo and has many of their gifts... but that he might just honestly hate his son (in part), because his hatred is so deep.

when eol is standing amidst the gondolinish splendor.... how small he might have felt, how powerless by comparison. seeing his son there.... who had to look like him in +some+ way because maeglin was the son of his body.... seeing his own face (somewhat) in a noldo frame.... he'd want to obliterate everything.

eol at this point reminds me of those selfish, abusive husbands (and sometimes wives) who decide if the wife is leaving, he's going to kill her and the kids -- and then himself ('tho who knows if eol would have done that.... he might have just returned to his smithying).


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 3:48am

Post #187 of 381 (4110 views)
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ok -- some gems from morgoth's ring [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I haven't got round to reading Morgoth's Ring yet, so hadn't come across this. Well. I'm glad he didn't rape her, even if the rest of his behaviour was somewhat reprehensible!


for elaen and all and sundry, for your reading pleasure ----


The Eldar wedded once only in lie, and for love or at the least by free will upon either part. Even when in the after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earh became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow... seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them.

Marriage, save for rare ill chances or strange fates, was the natural course of life for all the Eldar... Those who would afterwards be wedded might choose one another early in youth, even as children... but unless they desired soon to be married and were of fitting age, the betrothal awaited the judgement of the parents o either party.

In due time the betrothal was announced at a meeting of the two houses concerned, and the betrohed gave silver rings one to another... this betrothal was bound then to stand or one year at least, and it often stood for longer. During this time it could be revoked by a public return of the rings.... but the right of revoking was seldome used, for the Eldar do not err lightly in such choice. . They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldo swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast.

But... ceremonies were not rites necessary to marriage... It was the act of bodily union that achieved arriage, and after which the indissoluble bond as complete.

Since death and the sundering of spirit and body was one of the griefs of Arda Marred, it came inevitably to pass that death at times came to two that were wedded.... Now marriage is chiefly of the body, but is nonetheless not of the body only but of the spirit and body together, for it begins and endures in the will of the fea. Therefore when one of the partners of a marriage dies the marriage is not yet ended, but in abeyance. For those that were joined are no sundered; bu their union remains still a union of will.

It has been said that marriage resides ultimately in the will of the fear. also the identity of person resides wholly in the fea, and the re-born is the same person as the one who died. It is the purpose of the grace of re-birth that the unnatural breach in the continuity of life should be redressed, and none of the Dead will be permitted to be reborn until and unless they desire to take up their former life and continue it.

Marriage is for life, and cannot, therefore, be ended, save by the interruption of death without return. .... Since marriage is also of the body and one body has perished, they must be married again, if they will [if one or both elves are rehoused in new bodies].For they will have returned, as it were, to that state in their former life when by the otions of their fear they desired to be married. THere will be no question of desiring this or not desiring it. For by the steadfastness of the fear of the Eldar uncorrupted they will desire it; and none of the Dead will be permitted by Mandos to be reborn, until and unless they desire to take up life again in continuity with their past.


sorry, that's all i can clap together at the moment. there's more, like the part that says elves can just look into each other's eyes and know who's married... but i cannot readily find it. perhaps later.



cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 5:28am

Post #188 of 381 (4096 views)
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From our 2005 Letters discussion: [In reply to] Can't Post

The thread regarding Letters 43 and 49.








noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 6:54am

Post #189 of 381 (4073 views)
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Estuary English [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's what the BBC suggests (description plus examples)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1999/02/99/e-cyclopedia/383359

Oxfordshire, where I live is linguistcally a mix: among other sounds, you'll hear some estuary, and the whole range of hobbit accents as heard in the films: Bilbo to something pretty close to Sam.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 6 2013, 8:42am

Post #190 of 381 (4077 views)
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Thanks for this Maciliel [In reply to] Can't Post

Very interesting- thank you so much for posting these- things make more sense now!
Do you think that Eol was more ruled by the physical or the spiritual when he first "desired" Aredhel? To me, it suggests that the physical was just as strong as the spiritual- more a desire to possess her, body & soul. Later this "love" becomes twisted on both sides- if questioned, Eol would probably have declared that he still loved her, even after she had left, and possibly even believed that on one level. But deeper down, he probably recognised the ambivalence and hatred also, even if he would not acknowledge it. The letter that Squire quotes is very interesting as an insight into how Tolkien saw this sort of relationship. I agree with him to a certain extent about women believing they can "reform" a bad man- but I feel it is somewhat of a generalisation. Certainly there is a group of women who end up, sometimes repeatedly, in abusive relationships because they feel they can reform the partner and that he does love them really etc etc, but for sure not all women, or even the majority. Let's say, there seems to be a sizeable minority who get into that situation.

The quotes from MR illustrates TOlkien's idealist view of love, sex and marriage very well. IMO the marital customs and law he applies to the elves are very much how he would like things to be in the real world- relationships based purely on love and a meeting of minds, not lust, no sex before marriage, marriage being lifelong and beyond in both the physical and spiritual sense etc.I suspect this is a reflection of his relationship with Edith and maybe he felt that if all the world were so blessed, evil might be defeated- or at least people might be happier!

Ooh, and totally off topic- I seem to have galloped into Rohan overnight!! Still in the dust from your heels though Maciliel- you seem to have been to Fangorn, Edoras, fought a battle at Helms Deep and ridden to Gondor whilst I have been dossing in Lothlorien. I blame that Galadriel, messing with the time- and she didn't even give me a nice shiny dagger when I left!!Mad

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 6 2013, 8:48am

Post #191 of 381 (4085 views)
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Yes, this is the party to be seen at [In reply to] Can't Post

But the others seem to have drunk all the nice wine, leaving us with the plonk!!Unsure Luckily I've bought some nice Dorwinion stuff of my own! WOuld you like some?Wink You seem to have stayed up even later at this party than me (assuming you are on the Eastern rather than Western side of the Sundering Sea (Atlantic)! Some great points though Telain. Now where did that guy with the impressive hair go?....

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 10:10am

Post #192 of 381 (4078 views)
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That's "not unhelpful" :) Thanks for posting// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 11:20am

Post #193 of 381 (4073 views)
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so many interesting points [In reply to] Can't Post

 
so many interesting points, elaen. : )


[elaen]
Do you think that Eol was more ruled by the physical or the spiritual when he first "desired" Aredhel? To me, it suggests that the physical was just as strong as the spiritual- more a desire to possess her, body & soul. Later this "love" becomes twisted on both sides- if questioned, Eol would probably have declared that he still loved her, even after she had left, and possibly even believed that on one level. But deeper down, he probably recognised the ambivalence and hatred also, even if he would not acknowledge it.
[/elaen]



very much in agreement here, elaen. in posting that section from morgoth's ring, i got a chance to reaquaint myself with it.... and it seems that tolkien does provide for the possibility of elves being ruled by their bodies in matters of romance and love, even if these are ultra rare occasions. i'll have to take another look, because i'm also remembering other passages that seem to contradict each other a bit.

yes, in this context, aredhel and eol make more sense now. i still think that the two had enough personality traits in common that the idea of a partnership/marriage seemed like a wonderful idea. add into the mix that both were perhaps letting their hroar run way with them (which may be said literally for aredhel, perhaps causing or contributing to her wanderlust), and the extra dash of spice from letter #43 (very thoughtfully provided by squire), and we've got --- cliched but true -- a recipe for disaster.

i also agree with your take on eol, that love and lust were mixed up together, 'tho i don't think, had aredhel survived and eol had gone back to his forge, he would have admitted to anyone, not even himself (i get the feeling that he was not capable of such fine-tuned introspection), that he still loved her. and, by that point, in my estimation, whatever good love he might have had had been eaten away by his hatred for the noldor, and whatever lust was left had been consumed by that hatred, and transformed into anger and a desire to dominate.



[elaen]
The letter that Squire quotes is very interesting as an insight into how Tolkien saw this sort of relationship. I agree with him to a certain extent about women believing they can "reform" a bad man- but I feel it is somewhat of a generalisation. Certainly there is a group of women who end up, sometimes repeatedly, in abusive relationships because they feel they can reform the partner and that he does love them really etc etc, but for sure not all women, or even the majority. Let's say, there seems to be a sizeable minority who get into that situation.
[/elaen]



yes, tolkien was making a generalization; i don't get the sense he was saying that this was true for all women, just that it was a vulnerability for many, and a common enough pattern.




[elaen]
The quotes from MR illustrates TOlkien's idealist view of love, sex and marriage very well. IMO the marital customs and law he applies to the elves are very much how he would like things to be in the real world- relationships based purely on love and a meeting of minds, not lust, no sex before marriage, marriage being lifelong and beyond in both the physical and spiritual sense etc.I suspect this is a reflection of his relationship with Edith and maybe he felt that if all the world were so blessed, evil might be defeated- or at least people might be happier!
[/elaen]



yes : ). i very much get this same sense from his writings about the customs of the eldar and their inherent nature -- that what he envisions for the eldar is what he sees as the ideal state for women and men. i love the part (which i may add as a quote later) that he is firm in that male eldar and female eldar are +equal+. and i really get the sense from his stories that he believes it to be so... i just wish more females popped up in his stories, and they got more ink.



[elaen]
Ooh, and totally off topic- I seem to have galloped into Rohan overnight!! Still in the dust from your heels though Maciliel- you seem to have been to Fangorn, Edoras, fought a battle at Helms Deep and ridden to Gondor whilst I have been dossing in Lothlorien. I blame that Galadriel, messing with the time- and she didn't even give me a nice shiny dagger when I left!!Mad
[/elaen]



i'm going to borrow brethil's presentation and thoroughly wish you a resounding, thunderous welcome into rohan!!!!!! : )

i love having galloped into gondor, but i will share that it was very fitting to have me galloping around in rohan, and i loved seeing my avatar above the word "rohan" -- it just seemed to fit.

but you are there now, and i have not long left it, and i have let all there know to be prepared for your arrival, so you will find many to welcome you and much to divert you. spend some time on the open plains, take a trek to edoras and drink some mead at the golden hall, visit helm's deep, where dwarves are right now helping to rebuild the hornberg -- drink the sweet air as it comes to you on breezes that flow both cool and crisp, and flow also warm and soft.

(and, yes, galadriel can be very distracting. very easy to lose time with her -- no shiny dagger?!!! make sure you aren't mistaken -- check your pocketses. : ) )

( --- btw -- what does "dossing" mean?)



many cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 6 2013, 11:23am)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 11:24am

Post #194 of 381 (4080 views)
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many thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
many thanks, elizabeth : )

i'm going to take a look at this right after first breakfast. : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 11:28am

Post #195 of 381 (4061 views)
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will check this out [In reply to] Can't Post

 
will check this out, as with elizabeth's post, after first break fast (or maybe +during+).

a long while ago, i had stumbled on a great section on one of the u.k. news sites that had short video/audio clips on all sorts of different accents in the u.k. it also had a short pronunciation quiz (that anyone could take) that could identify where you were from in the english-speaking world by the way you answered the questions re how you pronounced things.

i don't know if anyone remembers me mentioning this, but i have not a wholly uncasual interest in linguistics. was accepted at one point to a phd program and was thoroughly mad for it (and still am -- i just didn't know how to pay for grad school, i was so naive -- i thought i had to come up with all the money myself).

maybe i'll take a quick pass at trying to locate that quiz / presentation.


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 6 2013, 11:40am

Post #196 of 381 (4067 views)
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Dossing... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah, is this another Brit phrase unknown in the US? It means lazing around, being unproductive. Back in the unenlightened 1980s, a homeless person living on the street was known as a dosser and a homeless persons' hostel as a doss house. Thankfully things are more enlightened on that front now. But it is still a phrase occasionally used by parents to truculent teens not contributing to the household. " You treat this place like a doss house!" as said teenager surfaces at about 1pm!

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 12:05pm

Post #197 of 381 (4083 views)
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more on the eldar, from morgoth's ring [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In all such things not concerned ith the bringing forth of children, the neri [elf men -- note the stem root of "ner" for men; we see this stem in galadriel's mother-name, "nerwen," and also in "nerndanel") and nissi (elf women)., (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal --unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that for the nissi the making of things new is for the most part shown in the forming of their children [which tolkien speaks about in another section as not just being a physical act, as with the edain, but they give parts of themselves in some other way], so that invention and change is otherwise mostly brought about by the neri. There are however, no matters hich ammong the Eldar only a ner can think or do, or others with which only a nis is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar). For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are ammong all the Eldar most practiced by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter as due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special poer that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there as less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals. On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need.

As for other matters, we may speak of the customs of the Noldor (of whom most is known in Middle-earth). Among the Noldor it may be seen that the making of bread is done mostly by women; and the making of lembas is by ancient law reserved to them. Yet the cooking and preparing of of other food is generally a task and pleasure of men. The nissi are more often skilled in the tending of fields and gardens, in playing upon instruments of music, and in the spinning, weaving, fashioning, and adornment of all threads and cloths; and in matters of lore they love most the histories of the Eldar and of the houses of the Noldor; and all matters of kinship and descent are held by them in memory. But the neri are more skilled as smiths and wrights, as carvers of wood and stone, and as jewellers. It is they for the most part who compose musics and make the instruments, or devise new ones; they are the chief poets and students of languages and inventors of words. Many of them delight in forestry and in the lore of the wild, seeking the friendship of all things that grow or live there in freedom. But all these things and other matters of labour and play, or of deeper knwoledge concerning being and the life of the World, may be at different times be pursued by any among the Noldor, be they neri or nissi.



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 12:23pm

Post #198 of 381 (4065 views)
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your thought is a good thought; adding more thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

my apologies for exiting the fascinating conversation last night! So like me to post and run...


Quote
when eol is standing amidst the gondolinish splendor.... how small he might have felt, how powerless by comparison. seeing his son there.... who had to look like him in +some+ way because maeglin was the son of his body.... seeing his own face (somewhat) in a noldo frame.... he'd want to obliterate everything.


I wholly concur. I think at the end, he was so consumed with jealousy and hate (and troubled by his inferiority complex) that ending everything -- and taking all that he held dear (and assumed others held dear as well) with him was the only viable option.

I probably missed this, but has someone brought up whether Eol knew that Turgon would eventually kill him? And furthermore, who were the guards that allowed Eol to "hide" a poison-tipped javelin under his cloak?! That must have been one enormous cloak...

And from your thorough posting of Elvish relationships from Morgoth's Ring, I think it is safe to say that some part of Eol was fascinated by the Noldor (whether he realised that fact or not) and therefore some part of him was fascinated (in a good way) by Aredhel upon first viewing. His seclusion certainly did not help with his people-meeting skills -- not that I am apologising for his behaviour, meeting someone through trickery is still fairly skeevy -- but I think there was some good in him yet. But through (what Eol considered to be) Aredhel and Maeglin's betrayal, all hope was lost...


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 12:32pm

Post #199 of 381 (4057 views)
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counter-thoughts, additional thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

 

[telain]
I probably missed this, but has someone brought up whether Eol knew that Turgon would eventually kill him? And furthermore, who were the guards that allowed Eol to "hide" a poison-tipped javelin under his cloak?! That must have been one enormous cloak...
[telain]



well, he is described as being very tall, even for an elf, so perhaps the javelin was normal-size, and he, being so tall, was able to hide it? but i think rather that it may not have been the really long length we associate with javelins. perhaps it was more like a long dart.

but still...

the purpose of those gondolinish guards was to protect the realm... and they didn't search him (or missed the weapon when they did).




[telain]
And from your thorough posting of Elvish relationships from Morgoth's Ring, I think it is safe to say that some part of Eol was fascinated by the Noldor (whether he realised that fact or not) and therefore some part of him was fascinated (in a good way) by Aredhel upon first viewing. His seclusion certainly did not help with his people-meeting skills -- not that I am apologising for his behaviour, meeting someone through trickery is still fairly skeevy -- but I think there was some good in him yet. But through (what Eol considered to be) Aredhel and Maeglin's betrayal, all hope was lost...
[/telain]



i have these additional thoughts on eol's attraction to aredhel... i think he was very conflicted in a way that might have had little to do with her. perhaps a vestige of the light of aman still clung to her like a shimmering nimbus of beautiful light.

eol has never seen the light of the trees, and he shuns their adulterated and diminished form, the sun (and perhaps the moon as well? we talk a lot about how he was sun-phobic, but he loved the night.... what did he think of the moon?).

so, was he drawn to whatever scraps of the light of valinor that clung to aredhel, drawn to it, but wishing to reject it (as he rejected the sun)?

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 12:36pm

Post #200 of 381 (4040 views)
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why thank you, I think I might! [In reply to] Can't Post

I hear that Dorwinion stuff really gets the job done!

Actually, I am on the Western side, so I cannot take credit for staying up quite that late (as much as I might like to propagate that illusion...). But I am in the northern and far eastern part of that Western land, (it's a geography quiz!) so it was still...late...

And I quite like your take on the hroa/fea question between Eol and Aredhel -- now, I am going to reread that with a (hopefully) clearer head!


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 12:49pm

Post #201 of 381 (4179 views)
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Dossing and faffing [In reply to] Can't Post

Beat me to the definition! and a good one you gave too.

I think dossing also still has the sense of informal improvised sleeping arrangements, as in "it's difficult to get a hotel in Gondor, but I have a mate who'll let me doss down on his floor for a couple of nights."

Cf faffing - a term of disapproval if someone is spending time and energy in an unproductive, perhaps disorganised way. Less idle than dossing: probably lots of activity but ineffectively directed. Often it's "faffing about" as in "I meant to do my tax return today, but I've spent all morning faffing about online."

Or

"If you've quite finished faffing about with bolsters and rangers, just get that Ring off that Hobbit and bring it back here to Mordor!"

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


sador
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 12:51pm

Post #202 of 381 (4168 views)
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In case nobody has noticed [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this thread broke the record for the number of replies in a RR thread! (although I'm no NEB to confirm this). Well done, folks!

Ah, and I'm just testing my new footer...

'But my father loves them,' said Túrin, 'and he is not happy without them. He says that we have learned all that we know from them, and have been made a nobler people; and he says that the Men that have lately come over the Mountains are little better than Orcs.'
'That is true,' answered Sador; 'true at least of some of us. But the up-climbing is painful, and from high places it is easy to fall low.'

Who was right?
Join us in the Reading Room, for the discussion of Of the Coming of Men into the West, beginning on June 9!

(This post was edited by sador on Jun 6 2013, 12:54pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 12:59pm

Post #203 of 381 (4162 views)
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makes me [In reply to] Can't Post

 
makes me think about "fafnir" in a whole, new light.


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 1:02pm

Post #204 of 381 (4156 views)
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love! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
love that you're promoting the upcoming chapter discussion in your footer, sador! : ) (which i'm thinking is your own? well done! : ) )

re the rest... funny, because i'm such a newbie, and i know the reading room has such a history, i just assume there have been scads and scads and scads of longer discussions like this.

neat! we are certainly a talkative, imaginative, and lively bunch. : )


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 6 2013, 1:03pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 1:06pm

Post #205 of 381 (4169 views)
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We are lively, but to give credit... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
love that you're promoting the upcoming chapter discussion in your footer, sador! : ) (which i'm thinking is your own? well done! : ) )
re the rest... funny, because i'm such a newbie, and i know the reading room has such a history, i just assume there have been scads and scads and scads of longer discussions like this.
neat! we are certainly a talkative, imaginative, and lively bunch. : )




Thanks to you for hosting us with such an insightful discussion!!!! AngelicCoolAngelic Always a pleasure Maciliel Telpemairo!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 1:16pm

Post #206 of 381 (4169 views)
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and lets not forget [In reply to] Can't Post

skiving (skiving off)!

I have been known to faff and to skive off... perhaps a bit too often for any real productive good...


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 1:16pm

Post #207 of 381 (4179 views)
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People who hate look for reasons to hate [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems to me that Eol was bitter and full of hatred, and just looked for reasons to hate. I know people like that in RL: hate their kids, hate minorities, it seems their primary emotion is hatred, and they're always trying to justify it, not cure it.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 1:24pm

Post #208 of 381 (4180 views)
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ah, thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

 
ah... thanks, brethil tengwadil...

but, truly, who could have guessed that "of maeglin" would have sparked such a discussion? not i. i'm just the host of the party, making sure people's drinks are filled and that there are enough snacks on the table.

lively conversations like this are akin to... meeting for a quick drink at a restaurant or bar, and then stumbling into one thing or another until you suddenly realize every other patron has left and the wait staff are standing around and staring at you.

.... and akin to.... meeting up early in the day for maybe a stroll around the neighborhood. the conversation gets going and someone realizes that he or she hasn't had breakfast, so you pop into a diner for a quick bite, which rolls on, then you take a walk out of the diner and head towards the park, with the leftovers from lunch in a doggie bag. you spin such good conversation in the park that you start to get hungry, and you have a late lunch, sitting on the grass, and before you know it.... you've spent the entire day chatting madly and are in a state of buzzy bliss.

btw.... who's hungry? i've got some leftover lembas here, and some apples....

cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 1:30pm

Post #209 of 381 (4144 views)
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But "skeevy" just a bit up-thread was a new one for me (and "head cannon")// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:18pm

Post #210 of 381 (4151 views)
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what is [In reply to] Can't Post

 
what is... "head cannon"?

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 2:18pm

Post #211 of 381 (4163 views)
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Eol and Curufin [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I agree, Brethil, and the way Tolkien wrote that scene was clear to me. So full of anger -- as if he is taking out all of his hatred and jealousy toward the Noldor out on his son. No wonder Maeglin...well, that is for another discussion.
But he couldn't actually take it out on the Noldor, could he? (He does, accidentally, by killing Aredhel). Eol is no match for Turgon and even Curufin (several more blows to his already shaky ego). Curufin twists the knife a little further and deeper by basically saying "I'm letting you go, but only just because you said the name Aredhel."
To quote a line from Firefly "He is a sad little king of a sad little Nan (Elmoth)" (Ok, I might have changed that a bit.)
And I can barely stay awake any longer! I am afraid that when I log on tomorrow there will be several hundred more posts and I will be catching up yet again!




Well to start with, we all know you post brilliantly when exhausted Telain..!

I too find it very interesting that this exchange between Eol and Curufin occurs in such a real-time, snapshot mode, with direct and pointed dialogue. We don't see that all the time, so it gives an intriguing insight to the amount of tension between these two, like Eol mounting up and throwing a caustically polite remark over his shoulder. It also seems to be the proverbial straw, ramping up Eol to even more anger. I see in Arda Reconstructed Doug Kane says that CT detailed in depth the writing process for this chapter in The War of the Jewels, and this is an interesting note on the passage:

"The meeting between Eol and Curufin (if not too long an interruption) is good, since it shows (as is desirable) Curufin, too often
the villain (especially in the Tale of Tinuviel), in a better and more honourable light - though still one of dangerous mood and contemptuous
speech. Curufin of course knew well of Eol's hatred of he Noldor, and especially of Feanor and his sons, as 'usurpers' (though in this case unjust, since the lands occupied by the 5 sons had not been peopled before by the Sindar)." WoTJ

It seems to imply that Eol's hatred of the Noldor is not entirely justified by the 'usurption' idea - it may go deeper. In addition the notes contain references to JRRT's thoughts on the 'darkness' of Eol; it seems in two sketches of his past he was taken by Morgoth and either freed to work mischief or rather bargained his way out...his metal-skills seemed tied to this event. A complex character; and if perhaps he was marred by Morgoth, thus may come explanation (not justification) for his behavior towards Maeglin.






Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


imin
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:20pm

Post #212 of 381 (4341 views)
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Think this might be what they mean [In reply to] Can't Post

 

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/...0120605053758AAeSR3P

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:30pm

Post #213 of 381 (4138 views)
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btw [In reply to] Can't Post

 
.... as much as i'm getting a better picture of eol... i'm also getting a better picture of maeglin.

in my other post i was musing on how maeglin, being half-noldor, might have been, in part, hated by his father (perhaps on a subconscious level).

i'm thinking about all that hate and maeglin's possible inferiority complex and self-hate.... so.... he's in nan emloth, receiving hate and denigration about his +noldor+ side (from dad and probably a bit from himself), and is thinking about gondolin as a much better place where he might fit in, be accepted, and also be turgon's heir (hey! a father figure who might actually treat you well! -- and, yes, i think at this time maeglin was also thinking about power as well).

so, maeglin gets to gondolin..... and.... he doesn't feel he fits in. on the surface he does... everyone loves him, accepts him, they love his skills and gifts and he shares them with others and learns from them as well. they thought his mother was long-lost, and he arrives with her, a splendid addition to the kingdom, and the happiest of reunions. but he's still plagued by self-hatred... this time, towards his teleri side...




[david suchet's hercule poirot voice]

but inside now, this maeglin starts to think, i am unworthy here as well! i am but half a noldo... there is everything here that is good and fine and beautiful and magnificent.... how can the work of my hands compare? i am but one smith, one artisan, one person, how can i compete with the gifts and majesty of so many? also this maeglin thinks, the noldor are so skilled and mighty... and i am but half noldor. and half of me is of a kind that is inferior to these people.

do you see, hastings, how it was with this young elf prince? he has been thirsty all his life for the love and the acceptance and the recognition.... and yet... he cannot drink.

poirot was at first fooled by the fine manners and talent of this high-born prince. but all has been revealed. he tried to fool hercule poirot, but that is not a thing possible!

[/ david suchet's hercule poirot voice]



cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 6 2013, 2:36pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 2:32pm

Post #214 of 381 (4148 views)
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Head cannon (or "headcannon") [In reply to] Can't Post

Turned up in one of Faenoriel's posts on this thread. Initially I thought she was referring to her own formidable intellectual artillery. But when I looked it up it turns out to be a "not un-useful" phrase:

Quote
An idea, belief, or aspect of a story that is not mentioned in the media itself, but is accepted by either the reader themselves or the fandom in general. If it is confirmed by the author of the story, it becomes canon.
In Homestuck , a popular webcomic , many suspect the headcanon that the trolls are carnivores, because of their natural homicidal tendencies and sharp teeth.

Many do not agree with this, but they're pretty retarded to not see that THEY HAVE SHARK TEETH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.

(Just putting that one out there....)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=headcanon


"Find the smoking head cannon" could be a new sport on these pages...

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jun 6 2013, 2:34pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 2:44pm

Post #215 of 381 (4144 views)
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wow! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
wow, brethil -- what a great unearthing!

the concept of arda marred is a very important one in tolkien's middle earth. before elves or edain or dwarves or pukel-men came to be, morgoth left his taint in the world. not orcs, not lies of malice... the very anima of his hatred and jealousy and destructive nature worked its way into the bones of the earth and the vault of the sky. like radioactivity.

all living beings live in it, but there are probably some pockets of it that are more volatile than others. perhaps eol was exposed too long in such a place, or his fea or hroa was more susceptible.

+so+ interesting as a possible backstory for eol that he was once entrapped by morgoth.]

i'm not familiar with the acronym "wotj" -- to what does that refer?


cheers (and thanks!) : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 6 2013, 2:56pm

Post #216 of 381 (4140 views)
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WOTJ= War Of The Jewels/ [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 3:03pm

Post #217 of 381 (4132 views)
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ah! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
don't have that one (yet). : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 3:07pm

Post #218 of 381 (4122 views)
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I'm inferring Muhammad Alë (the Greatest elf) was a Noldor [In reply to] Can't Post

Makes sense of his lines:
It'll be a swooner/ when I harpoon that crooner/ on that schooner in Tuná.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 3:08pm

Post #219 of 381 (4126 views)
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how awful! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
and yet, how inspired! : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 3:12pm

Post #220 of 381 (4127 views)
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one of the things i find curious [In reply to] Can't Post

 
(besides curiousg) about that excerpt...

if "curufin of course knew well of eol's hatred of the noldor, and especially of feanor and his sons," how did he know?

eol was so reclusive, even with his own people. just how would curufin know this?

theories welcome. : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 6 2013, 3:12pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 3:33pm

Post #221 of 381 (4106 views)
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Chance meetings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't seem a very likely way for the Noldor to know about Eol. Or, as the meme goes
"One does not simply walk into Noldor"
Smile

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 3:45pm

Post #222 of 381 (4150 views)
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Some more background, Curufin and Eol [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
(besides curiousg) about that excerpt...
if "curufin of course knew well of eol's hatred of the noldor, and especially of feanor and his sons," how did he know?
eol was so reclusive, even with his own people. just how would curufin know this?
theories welcome. : )




From the Notes relating to the chapter, some fascinating points: (thanks Doug for the directions!)

"For they* held a constant watch on Nan Elmoth, mistrusting the doings and goings of Eol..." (*'They' are Curufin and Celegorm.)
So there was long-standing knowledge of Eol, and Curufin and Celegorm found him suspicious for a long time. It was through these watches that it became apparent that Aredhel dwelled with Eol, as they espied her walking in the woods at night, and knew well who she was - the distrust may be simply inspired by the difference in Eol's twilight lifestyle and his openly and commonly dealing with the Dwarves, even if we discount the possibly abandoned sketches in which Morgoth had direct influence over Eol.


"An important point not made clear is Curufin and Celegorm's earlier action in the matter of Aredel. She had actually stayed with
them, and made no secret of who she was - indeed they knew her well from of old. Why did they not send word to Gondolin?"

"The answer then to the above question is this: the perils of Dungorthin etc. were universally dreaded by the Eldar, and
not least by the sons of Feanor, to him [read whom] refuge southward into Doriath was utterly closed. It had, of course, been
expressly forbidden by Turgon that Aredel should go that way. Only her wilfulness had done this."

So the Girdle and Thingol's ban, hemming in the brothers, prevents them from sending word to Turgon of the whereabouts of the Lady, even after she leaves them and is 'lost' and then, after many years, is seen again in the woods near Eol's home. In addition, while Aredhel stayed with the SoF, she made her feelings clear:

"But Aredel had evidently told Curufin (and later Celegorm of whom she was most fond) enough of herself, to understand that she had escaped from Gondolin by her own will and was glad to dwell [with] them and be free."


So here they perhaps also had the sense that it would be against the Lady's wishes had they interfered and sent word to Gondolin. "Escaped": interesting word! Her 'flight of the caged bird'?


As to the confrontation with Eol:
"
Curufin also knew that Eol's wife was of the Noldor, indeed he had long known who she was, and now shrewdly guessed that she was [?seeking] to escape from her husband at last." Thus the meat of the disdainful way Curufin deals with Eol. As far as Curufin's motivations, and how Eol is not, at this time, committing any dark acts:

"Curufin could have slain Eol (as he greatly wished!) and no one beyond the few men with him at his camp (who would
never have betrayed him) would ever have heard of it - or much mourned it. In Elmoth it would simply be learned that Eol had
ridden in pursuit of Aredel and never come back, and there were perils enough upon the road to account for that. But this would
have been in Eldarin law and sentiment murder; Eol came alone, on no errand of mischief at that time, but in distress.
Also [he] had answered Curufin's contempt and insults soberly or indeed with courtesy (whether it were ironic or not). Also and more cogently he was one of the Eldar, and not so far as was known under any shadow of Morgoth - unless that vague one which afflicted many
others of the Sindar (? due to whispers inspired by Morgoth) - jealousy of the Noldor."

So he greatly wished to slay Eol - I wonder, jealousy of his wedding Aredhel, considering her marked like of the SoF? Intriguing idea....
I like the notes on the inside take on that interaction - Eol seen to be behaving with decorum (even ironic) in the face of insult and denial of aid from a Firstborn...and also interesting we see the ban on slaying each other coming into play, even tough Curufin could have acted with relative impunity. And even if direct marring my Morgoth was either abandoned or deeply secret in Eol's story, the open marring of the kindreds through the whispering campaign comes to fruition.











Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Jun 6 2013, 3:48pm)


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 4:19pm

Post #223 of 381 (4110 views)
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Eol logic is not the same as other-people logic [In reply to] Can't Post

I really like this imagery. It is moments like these that seem to stop time and allow the reader to think, imagine, get a sense of the characters and the weight of the moment. Well said!


Quote
... like Eol mounting up and throwing a caustically polite remark over his shoulder.


and thank you for the kind remark... It leaves me to wonder if my sub-conscious is just far more with it than my conscious...or perhaps I over-think...no, that's not possible...is it?

So, if Curufin is as nasty as some of the other posts (including what you wrote below and your subsequent posts and Maciliel's) indicate, then just how bad is Caranthir? Shoot first and ask questions later? I am guessing Eol was (for a short time anyway) quite relieved he didn't run into Caranthir first...

I read that Eol's hate of the Noldor as usurpers was not justified from a 'normal, non-Eol' point of view. I assume the reasoning is due to Thingol telling Maedhros et al., that they can have anything that is NIMG (since we are throwing out crazy vocabulary and acronyms -- any guesses on my made-up one?). So, in reality the Noldor who return to fight Morgoth are perfectly justified in settling in the areas they chose.

Of course, Eol's hatred of the Noldor really stems from anything they do, ever. He has remarkable capacity to turn anything touched by them into something to be loathed. I feel the process is something like: observe (admire), twist (rewrite history), hate (and be jealous). I'm sure he does see them as usurpers, but in an objective view, he is not justified in thinking so.

And I do like the idea of Eol being trapped by Morgoth, at least for a time. It makes his whole being seem ... understandable. Not excusable, but perhaps I could scrounge up some sympathy for him if I imagined that as part of his background.




CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 4:19pm

Post #224 of 381 (4091 views)
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Thanks for the sleuthing, Brethil! [In reply to] Can't Post

Those are great finds to shed light on the matter. There's always a backstory to everything in Tolkien, isn't there?

Among other things, this gives a concrete example of how successful Morgoth's dirty war to create dissension among the Eldar was. We read about it in general, and see it in Thingol, but not really anywhere else.

What surprises me is Tolkien ruminating about the SOF "sending word to Gondolin." How does one do that when you don't know where it is? I think it's in Unfinished Tales where the common speculation is that Gondolin is hidden somewhere in southern Beleriand, because the north is more populated and there are fewer places to hide, and it seems logical to assume if you hide from Morgoth, you do it far away. So all this detail about sending word through the haunted land to Gondolin contradicts the hidden nature of the city, including the problem that people discovering it were either killed or imprisoned. But maybe Tolkien only drew an absolute girdle (so to speak) around Gondolin at a later date and had previously allowed for some rare, secret messages to get in and out. Or maybe the SOF had his phone number and were going to text him.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 4:22pm

Post #225 of 381 (4085 views)
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acronym... [In reply to] Can't Post

"NIMG"

"not in my garden"? or "not in my girdle"? or "not in melain's girdle?"

i rather like "not in my girdle" best, as spoken by thingol.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 4:26pm

Post #226 of 381 (4018 views)
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great stuff [In reply to] Can't Post

 
eol strikes me as the type who, in old age (steeping and stewing in bitter isolation for eons) -- let's say he got to be cirdan's present age --- he'd be the get-off-my-lawn-type. with the addition that, if you didn't get off his lawn, he'd cut you down and throw your bones into the fire to feed his forge.

i tease eol, of course.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 4:27pm

Post #227 of 381 (4010 views)
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NIMG = Not In My Girdle--I like it! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 4:32pm

Post #228 of 381 (4013 views)
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Finding Gondolin. It's not on the GPS apparently... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Those are great finds to shed light on the matter. There's always a backstory to everything in Tolkien, isn't there? There are, and even in abandoned ideas, or notes such as are associated with Ch 16, the insights can be invaluable, as it throws light on what JRRT was thinking and feeling.

Among other things, this gives a concrete example of how successful Morgoth's dirty war to create dissension among the Eldar was. We read about it in general, and see it in Thingol, but not really anywhere else. Yes, he persisted in this strategy for a long time, quietly in the background.

What surprises me is Tolkien ruminating about the SOF "sending word to Gondolin." How does one do that when you don't know where it is? I think it's in Unfinished Tales where the common speculation is that Gondolin is hidden somewhere in southern Beleriand, because the north is more populated and there are fewer places to hide, and it seems logical to assume if you hide from Morgoth, you do it far away. So all this detail about sending word through the haunted land to Gondolin contradicts the hidden nature of the city, including the problem that people discovering it were either killed or imprisoned. But maybe Tolkien only drew an absolute girdle (so to speak) around Gondolin at a later date and had previously allowed for some rare, secret messages to get in and out. Or maybe the SOF had his phone number and were going to text him. Of course the cell service was notoriously bad in Gondolin, something to do with the walls maybe...in any case, I wondered that myself, and I can only surmise that either Ardehel gave them SOME idea where it was, or at least how one could send a message (write it in code, put in the in hazel tree beside the big rock...) if one wanted to. It seems having escaped, Aredhel really trusted the SoF with a very revealing amount of information. Whether she actually divulged the spot, or implied it, I think is the only explanation as to how they potentially could have notified Turgon. It sounds like she was a bit - bitter? rebellious? - in her telling of her tale to Curufin and Celegorm, between using the word 'escape' and also potentially exposing, at the very least, the general area of the city.Interesting that many years later she will not reveal the spot to Maeglin...fear that Eol would then discover it, or an insurance that if Maeglin were to bolt, he would need her guidance to get there?


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 4:35pm

Post #229 of 381 (4037 views)
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Now admitting "Maeglin" to Ward 3 (warning, do not put in room near patient "Eol") [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we watch similar shows... the Hercule Poirot voice was fabulous! "Ah yes, Hastings, the Edain they do not have the cuisine, they only have the food."

And I am thrilled you are also re-watching TNG! Ahh...

But I would also add that your psychoanalysis of the patient "Maeglin" is spot on, Dr. Mac. He suffers from an overprotective, yet abusive father and a mother clearly suffering from "Nan Elmoth" syndrome (very much like Stockholm syndrome, but without clear signs of torture and a mental state one could only describe as "not wholly unwilling.")

He has learned to hate part of who he is, so introducing Maeglin to that side of himself must have been both exhilarating and traumatic. The Gondolidrim (there's a mouthful...or is it Gondolinodrim?) may have completely accepted Maeglin, but in Maeglin's mind a poorly worded compliment, a strange look, those must have all piled up in his sub-conscious and are poised to wreck havoc. He tries to fend it off by excelling at a great many things, but his tight-lipped demeanour -- especially surrounding the Eol-Turgon "conversation" -- betrays a "still waters run deep" character.

I also wonder here if he wanted to say to his father "you were right, these Noldor are rather uppity and annoying and I don't fit in here" but how could he without succumbing to the same fate as father? How could he without alienating his mother who at least was there as a positive influence on his life?

All very interesting...


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 4:37pm

Post #230 of 381 (4016 views)
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I was going for... [In reply to] Can't Post

"not in Melian's girdle", but I like your as-said-by-Thingol version !Wink


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 4:42pm

Post #231 of 381 (4015 views)
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telain, telain, telain! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

[telain]
I think we watch similar shows... the Hercule Poirot voice was fabulous! "Ah yes, Hastings, the Edain they do not have the cuisine, they only have the food."
[/telain]



not +only+ did i laugh out loud a this (!) -- but i found myself spontaneously clapping my hands (!). you are hys+ter+ical! : )

one of the reasons i laughed is that +not only+ did you capture poirot's speech idiom, but you also plucked an actual line from one of the shows -- i know because i've been watching +scads+ of poirot lately (streamed). +ha!+ +ho!+ (!)

fan+tas+tic!..... well done. : )

(and so distracted i haven't even read the rest of the post... 'tho i immediately thought your subject line was riotously funny...)


cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 4:42pm

Post #232 of 381 (4013 views)
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Eol's perspectives [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I really like this imagery. It is moments like these that seem to stop time and allow the reader to think, imagine, get a sense of the characters and the weight of the moment. Well said!


Quote
... like Eol mounting up and throwing a caustically polite remark over his shoulder.


and thank you for the kind remark... It leaves me to wonder if my sub-conscious is just far more with it than my conscious...or perhaps I over-think...no, that's not possible...is it?
Thank you Telain!...and your thinking is just fine, cute bedhead and all. Wink

I read that Eol's hate of the Noldor as usurpers was not justified from a 'normal, non-Eol' point of view. I assume the reasoning is due to Thingol telling Maedhros et al., that they can have anything that is NIMG (since we are throwing out crazy vocabulary and acronyms -- any guesses on my made-up one?). So, in reality the Noldor who return to fight Morgoth are perfectly justified in settling in the areas they chose. Of course, Eol's hatred of the Noldor really stems from anything they do, ever. He has remarkable capacity to turn anything touched by them into something to be loathed. I feel the process is something like: observe (admire), twist (rewrite history), hate (and be jealous). I'm sure he does see them as usurpers, but in an objective view, he is not justified in thinking so.
Its something I enjoy in JRRT's works; the voices are the character's voices, not the narrators. They don't always have the whole picture, and sometimes what they believe as truth is just wrong. He allows his characters to have subjectivity, and independence of thought, which is wonderful.

And I do like the idea of Eol being trapped by Morgoth, at least for a time. It makes his whole being seem ... understandable. Not excusable, but perhaps I could scrounge up some sympathy for him if I imagined that as part of his background.
Indeed true, even as an abandoned idea (which I don't wholly know: he may have kept in rather in his heart for Eol but kept us in shadow- the idea appears in two 'sketches' but never makes it into print version) it defines both activities we know we occurring (Morgoth) and the quiet, erosive marring that he is capable of, even when sulking about and seeming to be of distant concern.



Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 4:44pm

Post #233 of 381 (4030 views)
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(**applause**) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think we watch similar shows... the Hercule Poirot voice was fabulous! "Ah yes, Hastings, the Edain they do not have the cuisine, they only have the food."

Priceless.CoolCoolCool


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 4:44pm

Post #234 of 381 (4006 views)
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ok, the rest of your post [In reply to] Can't Post

 
... is cracking me up as well...

"nan emloth syndrome"
"a mental state one could only describe as 'not wholly unwilling.'"

you are on +fire+ today telain! (but not in a maedhros way.)


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 4:46pm

Post #235 of 381 (4012 views)
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I also raise my glass to Brethil and immediately ask more questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for all the amazing backstory!

Great question, CG! How does one "get word to Gondolin?" And how have certain people found out certain things about certain other people (Eol and Aredhel). Eol gets out from time to time, but he avoids SoF like the plague and is not really interested in talking ot his "own" people either.

I continue to wonder about Eol's "servants". Who were they? Could they "get out" from time to time? Did they get vacation days? Part of me thinks that Eol might not have time to consider whither they go and why, so I am therefore inclined to think that they do.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 4:52pm

Post #236 of 381 (4005 views)
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NIMG (*pfft....!*) [In reply to] Can't Post

NIMG = Not In My Girdle!!!

Make sure you do the extended hand roll too, and if anyone is brought before Thingol, maybe we would be treated to a "Oh no you di'int...!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 5:02pm

Post #237 of 381 (4010 views)
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Eol's household [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Thanks for all the amazing backstory! Most welcome as always!

Great question, CG! How does one "get word to Gondolin?" And how have certain people found out certain things about certain other people (Eol and Aredhel). Eol gets out from time to time, but he avoids SoF like the plague and is not really interested in talking ot his "own" people either. Ahh yes...see above, but as for the 'how' it seems deep mutual suspicion (with more spying from the C and C side than the Eol side) plus a rather talkative flown little bird...

I continue to wonder about Eol's "servants". Who were they? Could they "get out" from time to time? Did they get vacation days? Part of me thinks that Eol might not have time to consider whither they go and why, so I am therefore inclined to think that they do. Well, Eol had qualities - and initially even something to attract Aredhel - so I feel like he would inspire a certain amount of loyalty just based on himself and his own type of magnetism. I think they did get out, but 'as silent and secret' as their master, they had no desire to leave or to share his business with anyone else. (Were the servants exclusively Dwarves? If so, even more reason they were loyal only to one master, especially a craftsman, and had no desire to chat or borrow sugar or black powder from the neighbors.)


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Jun 6 2013, 5:02pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 5:13pm

Post #238 of 381 (3985 views)
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Maybe you send word to Gondolin by eagle, if you can find a co-operative one.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 5:14pm

Post #239 of 381 (3983 views)
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I'd say the Noldor had the right to settle unsettled areas without previous Sindarin population.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 5:17pm

Post #240 of 381 (3997 views)
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I thought it was "Noldor in Muddy Galoshes", but I see that's wide of the mark [In reply to] Can't Post

Wait "Widë of the Mark" - one of Éomers knights, I think?
Probably the fat one

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 5:20pm

Post #241 of 381 (3967 views)
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Slow clap to everyone who has participated! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 5:27pm

Post #242 of 381 (3988 views)
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Is that the guy on the Clydesdale? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Wait "Widë of the Mark" - one of Éomers knights, I think?
Probably the fat one




SmileSmile

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 5:30pm

Post #243 of 381 (3978 views)
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That would be the respect slow clap or the heckling one? :) [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
In some cultures, slow, synchronized clapping by displeased audience members is considered not applause, but the opposite: a form of heckling, or an expression of mocking dislike or disapproval of the performer. The person being slowly clapped at may interpret the clap as an insult, and a sign to leave the stage. Comedian Fred Allen, in his book Much Ado about Me, wrote that one noted vaudeville house developed a rhythm ("clap, clap, clap clap clap"), the maddening repetition of which could completely unnerve a performer.

A notable occurrence of a slow handclap took place during a speech made by British Prime Minister Tony Blair on 7 June 2000, when he was heckled and slow-handclapped by members of the Women's Institute.[6][7]

The slow handclap is occasionally employed to the opposite effect. In the tradition of London Livery Companies, for example, an assembled party (at, for example, a formal dinner) will routinely perform a slow handclap as a gesture of respect and deference to the arriving party of the Master and Court of the Company. In Hungary, it is known as vastaps (iron clap), so named because the theater audience is so impressed that they continue to clap even after the iron fire-proof curtain is lowered.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applause


Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 7:11pm

Post #244 of 381 (3968 views)
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I thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

So glad you are enjoying my often off-centred humour!

On list of things to do:
- check for Poirot episodes on Netflix

too many things to do!!!!


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 7:12pm

Post #245 of 381 (3961 views)
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you are all making my day!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 7:15pm

Post #246 of 381 (3957 views)
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and hopefully not in a balrog way... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but if it must be so then I say "with wings, please."

I still think it is the dearth of sleep... Perhaps I don't need sleep! That would be helpful for the "getting things done" part of my day! (night).


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 7:17pm

Post #247 of 381 (3977 views)
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Absolutely.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 7:20pm

Post #248 of 381 (3963 views)
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funny, funny, funny! [In reply to] Can't Post

also, Noldor in My Gaol -- for those who disobey the first meaning, warning, threat, thing.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 7:37pm

Post #249 of 381 (3953 views)
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NIMG? Still guessing: Newts In Manwë's G-string? (Valar office party gets excessive) ? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 6 2013, 7:49pm

Post #250 of 381 (3961 views)
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Pfffffttt!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you mind noWiz??!!! I'm trying to drink some tea here having just eaten. The picture you have just conjured is not conducive to the digestion or even just swallowing!!!!Wink

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 7:59pm

Post #251 of 381 (4078 views)
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+somebody's+ [In reply to] Can't Post

 
[nowimë]
NIMG? Still guessing: Newts In Manwë's G-string? (Valar office party gets excessive) ?
[/nowimë]


+somebody's+ got a doom of mandos coming to him...


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Jun 6 2013, 8:04pm

Post #252 of 381 (4082 views)
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I LOVED THIS ! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That little tramp Aredhel trespasses in Eol's nice, happy forest solitude, and when our shy boy gives her the slightest bit of flirtation, she gets all "not wholly unwilling" on him and winds up pregnant, saddling him with a brat. The schemer! He does the best he can to support them, and what thanks does he get? She splits with the kid without so much as a goodbye note, and she probably stole the silverware too. Nobly determined to make amends and save their marriage, he follows her through great adversity, hoping to redeem himself in her eyes, only to get killed by her savage family. Eol is the victim here, it's that White Lady's fault!!



The above is GREAT. I loved it. Awesome. "She splits without so much as a goodbye note" - Great !!!!!Wink


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 8:08pm

Post #253 of 381 (4075 views)
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no, Nowimë's In Mandos' Good-books - we managed to put the blame for the newts on Yavanna.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 8:15pm

Post #254 of 381 (4064 views)
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Respecting one, of course! :D // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 8:31pm

Post #255 of 381 (4064 views)
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more questions for you guys... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
1. what did eol think of the +moon+? it also arrived with the noldor.

2. does maeglin look to turgon as a father-figure? or just an uncle? or just a means to power?

3. is maeglin conflicted in any way about turgon? turgon killed his dad... but he hated his dad... but not totally... but....

4. is turgon conflicted about maeglin? he's his sister-son, but he's also the son of the "lesser elf" who killed his beloved sister -- one day after they were reunited!!


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 6 2013, 8:32pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 8:50pm

Post #256 of 381 (4053 views)
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Some quick answers [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1. what did eol think of the +moon+? it also arrived with the noldor.
Noldor Introduced Moon! Grrrr!

2. does maeglin look to turgon as a father-figure? or just an uncle? or just a means to power?

3. is maeglin conflicted in any way about turgon? turgon killed his dad... but he hated his dad... but not totally... but....

4. is turgon conflicted about maeglin? he's his sister-son, but he's also the son of the "lesser elf" who killed his beloved sister -- one day after they were reunited!!

I think it's a challenging set-up: different imperatives would make Maeglin want to respect his uncle and be revenged upon him. And the suspicion that that's how it is is surely going to cross Turgon's mind often enough. Difficult for these wretched cycles to stop.

cheers --

.


Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 9:18pm

Post #257 of 381 (4056 views)
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It was originally "Nutella in Manwë's G-string", but I had promised not to spread that rumour....// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jun 6 2013, 9:20pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 9:40pm

Post #258 of 381 (4041 views)
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you know [In reply to] Can't Post

 
you could actually be an example of arda corrupted....


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 9:57pm

Post #259 of 381 (4062 views)
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Turgon and Maeglin [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1. what did eol think of the +moon+? it also arrived with the noldor. It might be right up his alley - I would guess its the sun that he dislikes; the moon might just make it easier to spot wandering pretty girls...

2. does maeglin look to turgon as a father-figure? or just an uncle? or just a means to power? POWER and IDRIL. Hands down.

3. is maeglin conflicted in any way about turgon? turgon killed his dad... but he hated his dad... but not totally... but.... I don't think he is conflicted at all. I think that's why the point of the silence was so clear.

4. is turgon conflicted about maeglin? he's his sister-son, but he's also the son of the "lesser elf" who killed his beloved sister -- one day after they were reunited!! Tolkien seems to have a special place for sister-sons: Théoden and Eomer; Thorin and Fili and Kili...there are more. I don't think Turgon blames Maeglin at all; maybe in a way he opens his heart to Maeglin in a sense that perhaps Ardehel never seemed privy too, being proud and not too affectionate it seems. The son he never had...?


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 10:02pm

Post #260 of 381 (4063 views)
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DO NOT get me started on the uses of Nutella.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Really, Furuncurnir!!!!!! Wink Let's not have Telpemairo's wondrous thread all shut down....! (Spread the rumor....very sweetly done...)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 12:37am

Post #261 of 381 (4050 views)
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so many more interesting details [In reply to] Can't Post

 
.... one thing springs to mind.... if celegorm and curufinwe see aredhel in the forest, because they are keeping a watch on eol, why don't they announce themselves to her? they are all friends and are still on good terms (she had just stayed with them).

thank you so much, brethil tengwadil, for unearthing all of this. the storylines of aredhel, eol, and maeglin make +so much more sense now+.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 12:44am

Post #262 of 381 (4042 views)
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mostly in agreement.. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i'm mostly in agreement here, brethil... except i think it very plausible that father-love starved maeglin might very much look to turgon as a father-figure. i think that would be problematic in many ways, and would exacerbate any mixed feelings about having his father killed.

you can honestly hate a parent, an abusive horrible, monstrous parent, and be glad they're dead and +still+ be angry at the one who killed him.

and, yes, i very consciously used the phrase "sister-son," knowing that tolkien had something of a soft-spot for this sort of relationship (which he pulled in part from the cultures he studied; it was their term an often this was a special relationship -- i +think+ i read that in one of the letters).

i think turgon would have welcomed maeglin openly and joyfully. maeglin is now all that remains of his beloved sister. and, of course, the having no son and heir thing.

aredhel doesn't strike me as a very warm person, but that could totally not be the case. one can have a high-handed attitude and be very loving and thoughtful. i wish we had more details about her personality and actions. she makes a very interesting foil for galadriel, her genealogical contemporary.


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 12:50am

Post #263 of 381 (4051 views)
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so glad [In reply to] Can't Post

 
so glad you're enjoying all the silliness, ltnjmy. : )

do you have any thoughts on maeglin, aredhel, or eol? or on whether nowime is going to be banned from valinor, after that manwe/g-string joke?

(and yes, our curiousg is an extremely humorous gentleman...)


cheers : )

.

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 1:26am

Post #264 of 381 (4046 views)
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I stick up for the underdog. Glad you liked it. :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 1:27am

Post #265 of 381 (4036 views)
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Yeah, that doesn't make sense [In reply to] Can't Post

it's not like the SOF are ever shy. Why not say hello to her??


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 1:37am

Post #266 of 381 (4031 views)
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Also agreeing, and a question and a rhetorical question [In reply to] Can't Post

I see Maeglin as conflicted. Turgon is
  1. his express ticket to power
  2. the killer of his father
  3. his liberator from his father's tyranny
  4. the brother of his now-dead mother
  5. the light at the end of the "wow, the Noldor are impressive" rainbow
  6. the father of the girl he wants
Whereas Turgon seems to just like Maeglin, both for his ability and as the vestige of his sister.

Question: why is Aredhel not as smart and well-informed as Turgon and, I believe, Galadriel at this time? It's hard to imagine Finrod saying this about Galadriel: [Turgon to Aredhel's guards] "for though Morgoth be yet hemmed in the North there are many perils in Middle-earth of which the Lady knows nothing." She really seems like a carefree, naive, and teenagerish type of person who doesn't know there are bad things out there, or Dark Elves.

Rhetorical question: why the heck don't people ever listen to prophecies? Turgon tells Aredhel if she leaves, ill will come to both of them. Curunir tells Eol (rather charitably given their icy enmity) that he should go home and stop pursuing Aredhel, or he'll never go home again.

Now, if Maciliel tells me to exit my internet browser before the cock crows thrice, I most certainly will, because I am not a foolish Noldo, so please don't keep any prophecies to yourself.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 1:42am

Post #267 of 381 (4027 views)
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Clarification of the 'no hello' zone [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
.... one thing springs to mind.... if celegorm and curufinwe see aredhel in the forest, because they are keeping a watch on eol, why don't they announce themselves to her? they are all friends and are still on good terms (she had just stayed with them).
thank you so much, brethil tengwadil, for unearthing all of this. the storylines of aredhel, eol, and maeglin make +so much more sense now+.




You are so welcome, as always, Telpemairo!

This section of the Notes deals with why they did not either hail her or intervene, though their scouts saw her and reported it to them:

"This they did eventually when Aredel again began to visit the borders of Nan Elmoth, or stray beyond them. For they held a constant watch on Nan Elmoth, mistrusting the doings and goings of Eol, and their scouts espied her at times riding in the sunlight by the wood-eaves. But now it seemed too late [to] them; and they all [? read they thought that all] they would get for any peril would be the rebuke or wrath of Turgon. And this [they] wished in no way to receive. For they were now under a shadow of fear, and beginning to prepare for war again ere the strength of Thangorodrim became insuperable."

One stickly issue is the timeline, which CT points out, is a full 55 years before the lifting of the Siege of Angband and the resultant Dagor Bragollach; so formal preparations would not have been underway yet. But the overall idea on JRRT's part is that they both wished to avoid entanglement with Turgon, and to have other issues to be concerned with. Presumably as well, they might have felt that there was some bad blood between brother and sister, (remember she said 'escape' back in the day) and since they had hosted her upon her 'escape' they had no wish to incur the brother's displeasure. In addition, since she walked free in the wood, I don't think they saw her as a prisoner - Curufin doesn't see the cracks in the relationship until he notes Aredhel and Maeglin fleeing; at that point he makes his remarks to Eol. close behind.



Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 1:44am

Post #268 of 381 (4035 views)
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because you asked [In reply to] Can't Post

 
because you asked, and i am nothing if not wholly unwilling, i will relate to you a prophecy that concerns you.

you must not, under any circumstances, send me one million dollars. my heart warns me that if you do, you will somehow be mistaken for a royal elf of the house of fingolfin and ensnared in nan emloth.

i hope that was clear. let me know if you need my address.


cheers --

.

aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 7 2013, 1:46am)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 1:50am

Post #269 of 381 (4039 views)
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that does [In reply to] Can't Post

 
indeed clarify... .thank you again, brethil tengwadil. : )

your contributions on this thread have been +invaluable+ (and that's pretty typical for you, btw)... you're really helped to open up these characters and chapter for me.


pcheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 1:59am

Post #270 of 381 (4017 views)
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Thoughts back on Maeglin [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
i'm mostly in agreement here, brethil... except i think it very plausible that father-love starved maeglin might very much look to turgon as a father-figure. i think that would be problematic in many ways, and would exacerbate any mixed feelings about having his father killed. you can honestly hate a parent, an abusive horrible, monstrous parent, and be glad they're dead and +still+ be angry at the one who killed him. True, its possible, and I agree completely...just not sure I feel that in Maeglin. I think there was little or no connection between father and son here - through no fault of the son, but it still alters who he is.

and, yes, i very consciously used the phrase "sister-son," knowing that tolkien had something of a soft-spot for this sort of relationship (which he pulled in part from the cultures he studied; it was their term an often this was a special relationship -- i +think+ i read that in one of the letters). Yes, I thought you might have!Smile

i think turgon would have welcomed maeglin openly and joyfully. maeglin is now all that remains of his beloved sister. and, of course, the having no son and heir thing. I agree, and without reservation I think...out of darkness and sadness coming this unexpected gift of Maeglin, who has such promise.

aredhel doesn't strike me as a very warm person, but that could totally not be the case. one can have a high-handed attitude and be very loving and thoughtful. i wish we had more details about her personality and actions. she makes a very interesting foil for galadriel, her genealogical contemporary. Yes true - they are both masterful women, a bit rebellious too...again I feel a bit of chill when it comes to Aredhel, not the same feeling of warmth that I get with Galadriel - just my read of the two! Although she inspired love in her son, which is a happy thing to know, and gave her life to protect his.


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 2:04am

Post #271 of 381 (4015 views)
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Glad to be of service! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
indeed clarify... .thank you again, brethil tengwadil. : )
your contributions on this thread have been +invaluable+ (and that's pretty typical for you, btw)... you're really helped to open up these characters and chapter for me.




Thanks to you for the kind words! We will discuss it more during our Gondorian balcony luncheon! Especially since, CG being not wholly unwilling, that $1 million will be on the way shortly...! Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 2:22am

Post #272 of 381 (4015 views)
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Thanks, as always, Breth [In reply to] Can't Post

As I say, there is always backstory. Which is why Tolkien so satisfactorily stands up to our affectionate scrutiny, as you put it.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 2:26am

Post #273 of 381 (4030 views)
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Woo! I narrowly missed that swipe of Fate. [In reply to] Can't Post

There I was, poised at the mailbox, surreptitiously slipping an envelope stuffed with green stuff that was addressed to you. It was the TORN "Win A Million $ for Most Replies Award." But I got your post just in time, so nay, I shall not make the mistake of sending all that money that will only end in woe, and I burned the foul dollars as if they were ships at Losgar. There, I am saved from a destiny of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Thank you!


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 2:38am

Post #274 of 381 (4021 views)
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Me too; and Idril comments [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad you said that:

Quote

again I feel a bit of chill when it comes to Aredhel, not the same feeling of warmth that I get with Galadriel - just my read of the two!

I have had that cold sense of her since my first read, and I never warm up to her or feel much loss when she dies. She has a few moments where I see some warmth in her. I especially like the part where in telling Maeglin of all the wonders of Gondolin, she wonders why she ever left it and feels homesick. There's something intimate in that mother-son "this is what I was like before you were born" conversation and how it kindles her heart that makes her appealing in that moment. Then in Gondolin I find it noble of her and Idril to persuade Turgon to spare Eol even after he's wounded her. But otherwise, she's not someone I'd like to meet, and I'd like to meet a lot of these people.

BTW, doesn't Idril come off great in this chapter? Even with little said about her, I get the impression that she's mature for her age, thoughtful, discerning, confident, and wise with the wisdom of Melian. It's significant that she helps persuade Turgon to spare Eol when she doesn't even know him--Auntie Aredhel (who would not be a good advice columnist, unless it was "Don't do what I did") was making a plea for her husband, however estranged, but he was a total stranger to Idril and he'd just tried to kill her auntie. That's character.

Next, Maeglin seems able to see through everyone else, but Idril trumps him by seeing through him, and he's supposed to be the master of disguising his thoughts and intents. Isn't that just totally cool of her? Yet she doesn't make a big fuss out of him either, she just avoids him, and adroitly, one may assume. Later one she will have foresight AND ACTUALLY ACT ON IT--TAKE NOTE, NOLDOR--and prepare the refugee exit that they'll need someday, and she has the good sense to (again, adroitly) conceal it from Maeglin. Move aside, Tuor, I want this woman for myself!


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 2:46am

Post #275 of 381 (3996 views)
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love this post! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
well-written, insightful, funny, and even some gratuitous violence! (shoving tuor out of the way -- go cg!)

yes, with just a sprinkling of vowels and consonants, we get a sense of who ildril is. i mean, it's nice to know the other elf-girls in gym class called her "silverfoot" because she was so good at kickball, but that's really not terribly illuminating.

loved the +so+ insightful thing you said about maeglin having this superior power to see through everyone else, but +she+ can see through +him+. so very well said. : )


cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 2:55am

Post #276 of 381 (4019 views)
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Idril [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Glad you like the backstory details upthread! BTW, doesn't Idril come off great in this chapter? Even with little said about her, I get the impression that she's mature for her age, thoughtful, discerning, confident, and wise with the wisdom of Melian. It's significant that she helps persuade Turgon to spare Eol when she doesn't even know him--Auntie Aredhel (who would not be a good advice columnist, unless it was "Don't do what I did") was making a plea for her husband, however estranged, but he was a total stranger to Idril and he'd just tried to kill her auntie. That's character.
Next, Maeglin seems able to see through everyone else, but Idril trumps him by seeing through him, and he's supposed to be the master of disguising his thoughts and intents. Isn't that just totally cool of her? Yet she doesn't make a big fuss out of him either, she just avoids him, and adroitly, one may assume. Later one she will have foresight AND ACTUALLY ACT ON IT--TAKE NOTE, NOLDOR--and prepare the refugee exit that they'll need someday, and she has the good sense to (again, adroitly) conceal it from Maeglin. Move aside, Tuor, I want this woman for myself!
Oh, I like all your points here, CG. Through Idril comes the hope of MIddle Earth, the Star, and its obvious early she is something special. I like that, as you point out, Idril has the sight to see into and through Maeglin...clever. Must have been creepy for her, as he fell further from infatuation to downright lust. Sweet that when it comes to the splendid lady you are not in the least unwilling! I commend your taste highly.


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 2:57am

Post #277 of 381 (4042 views)
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Merely 2nd best [In reply to] Can't Post

Alas for Idril Silverfoot, who only won the Silver Medal in kickball. The #1 player was Haleth Goldenfoot. Which means the #3 player was stuck with the name of Elwing Bronzefoot, which sounds awfully clunky. I'm not sure what ranking Dain Ironfoot had in that league.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 3:05am

Post #278 of 381 (4024 views)
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Commissioner Ironfoot // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Alas for Idril Silverfoot, who only won the Silver Medal in kickball. The #1 player was Haleth Goldenfoot. Which means the #3 player was stuck with the name of Elwing Bronzefoot, which sounds awfully clunky. I'm not sure what ranking Dain Ironfoot had in that league.


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 3:12am

Post #279 of 381 (4031 views)
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She's rich, smart, and an heiress--what's not too like? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, and she's pretty too. It only gets better.

Tolkien was a good observer of family dynamics, and we see that with Eol-Aredhel-Maeglin. It's dysfunctional, but believable.

The subtle dynamic I see with Idril is that having lost her mother, she takes on her role as being in some ways equal to her father. She urges him to not kill Eol, and he respects her opinion (along with Aredhel's) enough to change his mind. Later she sees trouble ahead and, rather than running to daddy to solve it, she takes the initiative all on her own to have the escape route secretly constructed. While I don't know any royal families, I do know some ordinary ones where the mother has died and the daughter has taken her role in many ways. And similarly, when a father dies, the oldest son takes his role as near-equal to the mother. So nothing unusual, but these are otherwise unusual people (with unusual names) who act human, even if it's not all spelled out for us.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 3:21am

Post #280 of 381 (4022 views)
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Wow, CG! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Oh, and she's pretty too. It only gets better.
Tolkien was a good observer of family dynamics, and we see that with Eol-Aredhel-Maeglin. It's dysfunctional, but believable.
The subtle dynamic I see with Idril is that having lost her mother, she takes on her role as being in some ways equal to her father. She urges him to not kill Eol, and he respects her opinion (along with Aredhel's) enough to change his mind. Later she sees trouble ahead and, rather than running to daddy to solve it, she takes the initiative all on her own to have the escape route secretly constructed. While I don't know any royal families, I do know some ordinary ones where the mother has died and the daughter has taken her role in many ways. And similarly, when a father dies, the oldest son takes his role as near-equal to the mother. So nothing unusual, but these are otherwise unusual people (with unusual names) who act human, even if it's not all spelled out for us.





WOW - CG I am floored by these amazing insights, this is a really intuitive sense you've gotten about Idril, from not a ton of clues. I like the dynamic you've unearthed here, the maturing of the female child into the wiser role of the lost mother figure, thus re-completing the functioning family. And blessedly for Idril she has a father who values her.

I agree about JRRT's handling of dynamics, though his own family life was blessed.
Wonderful! Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 6:26am

Post #281 of 381 (4004 views)
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Fair enough: my new motto shall be "Never Imagine Manwë's Goolies" // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 6:38am

Post #282 of 381 (4006 views)
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"NoWiz Is Morgoth's Go-between?" I deny everything :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 6:44am

Post #283 of 381 (4027 views)
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Handy guide to Sons of Feanor: [In reply to] Can't Post

A-sons are irrelevant.

C-sons are BAD.

M-sons are ambilivant (sometimes sort of good, but always cursed).








Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 11:17am

Post #284 of 381 (3997 views)
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ha! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
if only i had had your handy guide, elizabeth, when i first ventured into the sil many ages ago! : )


cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 11:22am

Post #285 of 381 (3996 views)
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seconding the "wow" [In reply to] Can't Post

 
curiousg, you are quite on fire as well (but, again, not in a maedhros way).

fantastic application of family dynamics. one of the things that always struck me about idril is that --- she does this fantastically wise, enterprising, and foresighted thing -- and it only gets a couple of lines (or she only gets a couple of lines).

i'd really like to see more of idril, hear more of her. is this one of the cases in which christopher took the scissors to a female character? or did tolkien himself just not get into her story as much?


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 11:22am

Post #286 of 381 (4002 views)
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seconding the "wow" [In reply to] Can't Post

 
curiousg, you are quite on fire as well (but, again, not in a maedhros way).

fantastic application of family dynamics. one of the things that always struck me about idril is that --- she does this fantastically wise, enterprising, and foresighted thing -- and it only gets a couple of lines (or she only gets a couple of lines).

i'd really like to see more of idril, hear more of her. is this one of the cases in which christopher took the scissors to a female character? or did tolkien himself just not get into her story as much?

(brethil might know....)


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 7 2013, 11:23am)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 11:26am

Post #287 of 381 (4010 views)
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btw [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i would have +loved+ to see what a +daughter+ (or some daughters) of feanor would have been like.

more likely to heed the wisdom of nerdanel, and thus escape the oath? fantastic artisans in the own right (like nerdanel)?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 12:06pm

Post #288 of 381 (3990 views)
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Well, that would explain [In reply to] Can't Post

why, when read out loud and backwards, your signature's secret message really says, "I'm not saying Morgoth is right, but I'm not saying he's wrong either. He did the best he could."


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 12:41pm

Post #289 of 381 (3999 views)
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Thanks for the wow [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad you appreciate the observation, Breth. Like everyone in The Silmarillion, I wish there was more about her. Brief glimpses of Idril suggest she had a lot depth that would be enjoyable to read about.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 1:11pm

Post #290 of 381 (3986 views)
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Elizabeth I love this guide...// [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
A-sons are irrelevant.
C-sons are BAD.
M-sons are ambilivant (sometimes sort of good, but always cursed).




Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 1:29pm

Post #291 of 381 (3985 views)
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Glimpses of Idril [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm glad you appreciate the observation, Breth. Like everyone in The Silmarillion, I wish there was more about her. Brief glimpses of Idril suggest she had a lot depth that would be enjoyable to read about.




From what I can see in War of the Jewels notes, JRRT made extensive changes and made many notations, mostly changing names and the details of the story of Maeglin's immediate family, some as late as 1970's; Idril and Gondolin are much older material (origin circa 1917) and I think was much more firmly fixed in his mind as to their characters and actions - so I think the Idril we see was basically JRRT's picture as he desired to present it.

But on the other hand, look at what you divined from what is written - an evocative picture! Though I agree, I would have loved some of that 'snapshot' dialogues of Idril and Turgon discussing Eol.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 1:31pm

Post #292 of 381 (3982 views)
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Brilliant - and also there are more examples [In reply to] Can't Post

When the "swarthy men" turn up amid the Ruin of Beleriand,
the B-ones are loyal
the U-ones are treacherous

I wonder whether this kind of thing is intentional (or subconscious intentional - e.g. certain sounds sound like a nice person's name). Are there other examples? The more examples, the less plausible it is that it is happening co-incidentally.
(sorry - lapsed professional scientist here; sometimes it shows Smile )

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 2:36pm

Post #293 of 381 (3975 views)
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Digging through memory...I believe you are correct Furuncurunir [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
When the "swarthy men" turn up amid the Ruin of Beleriand,
the B-ones are loyal
the U-ones are treacherous

I wonder whether this kind of thing is intentional (or subconscious intentional - e.g. certain sounds sound like a nice person's name). Are there other examples? The more examples, the less plausible it is that it is happening co-incidentally.
(sorry - lapsed professional scientist here; sometimes it shows Smile )




You are completely right about the Ul- prefixing...I think it means 'horrible' or 'hideous' as a prefix root, and I seem to remember JRRT writing that the name 'Ulfang' sprang into his mind, and the tale of betrayals sort of flowed from it. Can't find the text, but I know I have seen it somewhere.

Yes and of course we have B-Men and F-Elves. I just love writing that, it looks so amusingly profane when it isn't....! Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 2:52pm

Post #294 of 381 (3977 views)
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u -- [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i think the prefix "u" is along the lines of "un," "not," etc...

we can see it in "umaiar" -- the maiar who turned towards or who were corrupted by melkor, and in "umanyar" -- the elves who did not travel to aman.


i did a google search and came up with this...

u prefix

i think tolkien may have vacillated a bit whether "u" was mere negation or whether it also intrinsically connoted "bad" or "evil."

again, tough luck, moriquendi. : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 3:03pm

Post #295 of 381 (3970 views)
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Yes, that's a handy site..Thanks Telpemairo...! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
i think the prefix "u" is along the lines of "un," "not," etc...
we can see it in "umaiar" -- the maiar who turned towards or who were corrupted by melkor, and in "umanyar" -- the elves who did not travel to aman.
i did a google search and came up with this...

u prefix

i think tolkien may have vacillated a bit whether "u" was mere negation or whether it also intrinsically connoted "bad" or "evil."
again, tough luck, moriquendi. : )




The U- is negativity or negation, absolutely. If you put Ul - in (I just did) it comes up as odor/ugly/hideous...

http://www.elfdict.com/...ar&ajax=false#ul

in either case, its not a good sort of sound...harsh on the ear, which I think is the motivation for the language linkage. JRRT had such a sensitive ear! Similar in origin (though completely opposite alignment..) to how the beauty of the name Earandil prompted his story.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 3:12pm

Post #296 of 381 (3956 views)
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ah [In reply to] Can't Post

 
didn't see the "L"..... apologies. : )

so, not a good idea to name your kid "ulwen"? "ulros"? "ulrond"? "ulwe"?


cheers : )


,


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 3:16pm

Post #297 of 381 (3960 views)
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Oooo...yeah, bad name choices...!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
didn't see the "L"..... apologies. : )

so, not a good idea to name your kid "ulwen"? "ulros"? "ulrond"? "ulwe"?




mmm..Ulrond as in 'smelly cave' ? Would fit for a teenage boys room I suppose!!!! CoolSmileTongue
Ulwen, the Malodorous Maiden of the Fens...has a certain lilt...

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


telain
Rohan

Jun 7 2013, 3:52pm

Post #298 of 381 (3965 views)
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sounds like [In reply to] Can't Post

the "real" party to be at is the Valar office party! Wink


telain
Rohan

Jun 7 2013, 4:16pm

Post #299 of 381 (3949 views)
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something I noticed, and then some other things [In reply to] Can't Post

(my copy of the Sil is at home, but I think this part about Eol is right... And apologies if I sound a but redundant.)

Eol only went out under starlight or in the crescent (sliver?) moon. I think that is important in that maybe he could not handle even the full reflection of the Sun. Talk about "Dark" Elf!

I think Maeglin wanted to look up to Turgon as a father figure, but something (!) was holding him back. Probably many things. Many things that start with "Eo" and end with "massive inferiority complex caused by overbearing father." Did Maeglin need another father figure? Wouldn't Eol have been more than enough?

Honestly (and I really do apologise now if I am restating things others said better) I think there isn't much that Maeglin is not conflicted about. I think his silence during the Eol-Turgon scenes and his "diving into hard work" attitude are symptomatic of a conflicted mind. Distractions are great until something brings all those deep, still waters to the Falls of Sirion...

On the other hand, I'm not sure if Turgon is conflicted about Maeglin. Maybe I simply don't want him to be, but he seems big enough to overcome the possibility of conflict and to take Maeglin at face value (and since he looks like a Noldo, all the better...). I guess I don't see Turgon looking for problems with Maeglin. On the other hand, I do see Turgon (before she died) being more than little disappointed with Aredhel. She did her best to do what she wanted to do (especially it seems when it conflicted with what Turgon thought it best or safe to do.) I am not saying Aredhel was necessarily wrong -- but I don't get the idea she fully understood the ramifications of what she was doing. Actually she seems like an interesting character that could have handled a bit more responsibility than I suspect she got.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 4:32pm

Post #300 of 381 (3937 views)
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largely agreed, telain... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i rather get the sense that eol didn't just dislike the sun, but perhaps, over time, found it... uncomfortable.... perhaps i'm reading too much into it, but it's my impression that tolkien paints him as a dark elf in just about every possible way. knowing now the earlier incarnations (morgoth, etc.), the sun-shunning seems like it may be a preference now, but had both symbolic and physical meaning in earlier drafts.

yes, i get the sense that turgon just welcomes maeglin with open arms. and maeglin just never really fits in, because of what he's inherited emotionally. i suppose this may include, "what do these fine elves think of me, really, now that everyone knows that my father killed another elf, my mother?" and he sublimated all of his conflicts into work, work, work -- acquiring power, acquiring knowledge.

aredhel... she does strike me as immature.... not in the teenage way, but in the way that people who lack self-reflection +and+ lack empathy +and+ who just tumble from one thing to another. i think she just does what she wants, but there doesn't seem to be a constructive purpose. and if you're always feeding your will... well... i think she saw similar rebellious, freedom-loving qualities in eol... and just jumped right in.

here's a thought --

perhaps being cooped up in gondolin for so long made her psychologically more vulnerable to the idea of freedom, rebellion, etc.

you know... thinking of aredhel back in aman, when the debate to go back to the mainland was going on... i know tolkien states that galadriel was the only woman of the noldor to "stand tall" in that hour, but ---- honestly -- it seems hard to believe that headstrong, extremely vocal aredhel --- who hatest being cooped up --- would say nothing on that day.

i wonder if tolkien just neglected her a bit, and just lavished more attention on galadriel.

honestly, the more i think about, i would think aredhel would be in the square, standing near feanor and his sons (with whom she was great friends), making speeches.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


telain
Rohan

Jun 7 2013, 6:05pm

Post #301 of 381 (4060 views)
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number 300!? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry. Had to.

And I like where you are going with Aredhel -- the cooping was a problem, therefore it was only a matter of time with Eol that she would need to escape...


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 6:09pm

Post #302 of 381 (4055 views)
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agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

 
and the twistedness of bonding yourself with someone who, despite all the appearance as a lover of freedom, was (or developed into being) very controlling and restrictive.

i'm surprised she didn't bolt sooner --- he made her give up moving around by daylight. for someone used to the light of the trees, and then of the sun, that must have been strange. aredhel was not one of those elves that was born and lived all her light in twilight, before the sun came, like the sindar and the rest.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 6:46pm

Post #303 of 381 (4048 views)
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aredhel and the chill [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i wonder if we would view aredhel with less chill if she were a male elf.

as an experiment, let's imagine fingolfin had only sons. fingon, turgon, and argon -- whoops --- that one's already taken.... let's call the fourth son ningon. he is "fearless and hardy" and ever-wandering over plains, valleys, and mountains. he is strong-willed, and does what he likes. ningon is always dressed in white, and is fond of hunting. he goes to gondolin with his brother, turgon, but has a bit of a disagreement, because he wants to roam and explore this middle-earth.



Ningon Ar-Rochallor, the White Rider of the Noldor, son of Fingolfin, dwelt in Nevrast with Turgon, his brother, and he went with him to the hidden kingdom. But he wearied of the guarded city of Gondolin, desiring ever the more longer to ride in the wide lands and walk in the forests, as had been his wont in Valinor; and when two hundred years had passed since Gondolin was full-wrought, he spoke to Turgon, and asked leave to depart. Turgon was loath to grant this, and long he denied his brother, but at last Turgon yielded, saying: "Go then, if you will, though it is against my wisdom, and I forebode that ill will come of it, both to you and to me. But you shall go only to seek Fingon, our brother, and those I send with you shall return to Gondolin as swiftly as they may."

But Ningon said: "I am your brother and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me. And if you begrudge me an escort, I will go alone."

Then Turgon answered: "I grudge you nothing that I have. Yet I desire that none shall dwell beyond my walls who know the way hither; and if I trust you, my brother, others I trust less to keep guards on their tongues."

And Turgon appointed three lords of his household to ride with Ningon, and he bade them lead Ningon to Fingon in Hithlum, if they might prevail upon him. "And be wary," Turgon said, " for though Morgoth be yet hemmed in the North, there are many perils in Middle-earth of which my brother knows nothing." Then Ningon departed from Gondolin, and Turgon's heart was heavy at his going.

But when Ningon came to the Ford of Brithlach in the River Sirion, he said to his companions: "Turn now south and not north, for I will not ride to Hithlum; my heart desires rather to find the sons of Feanor, my friends of old." And since Ningon could not be dissuaded, they turned south as he commanded, and sought admittance into Doriath.





to me, ningon seems a whole lot less chilly than aredhel. he seems strong-willed, but adventurous and admirable, even if more thoughtfulness might have also been useful. he seems a brave and hardy adventurer and explorer, and his visual presence, a rider clad always in white, now seems like a warm and inspiring white.

to me, anyway. and all i did was flip the gender. i'm reevaluating aredhel.

did anyone else have a similar experience?



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 7 2013, 6:47pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 8:57pm

Post #304 of 381 (4046 views)
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Well, for me, the chill is still there. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not about gender to me. He still seems self-centered and not very interested in how he treats other people.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 9:07pm

Post #305 of 381 (4040 views)
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fair enough -- [In reply to] Can't Post

 
: )

but wait until he throws himself in front of eolwen's javelin, to save his daughter, maegliniel.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


imin
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 10:31pm

Post #306 of 381 (4039 views)
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Same for me [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes (a lot of the time) gender doesn't matter.

'What's the matter with you?' - J.R.R. Tolkien


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 10:49pm

Post #307 of 381 (4022 views)
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Masterfully re-written... [In reply to] Can't Post

I've read it a few times, and mulled. But I confess, that willfulness (as chilliness) still comes through - it the risk to Gondolin to satisfy the restlessness that comes through. However, I completely appreciate your potential point !!!!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Jun 7 2013, 10:51pm)


telain
Rohan

Jun 7 2013, 10:50pm

Post #308 of 381 (4030 views)
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me, too [In reply to] Can't Post

I know I wouldn't have stayed around that long...but then I probably wouldn't have done half the things she did, either.

And great point about not being an elf of the twilight -- do you suppose that is one of the reasons she did stay so long? It was different? Perhaps she was bored of all that sunlight and trees, and freedom?

She certainly is an interesting character. And I don't think I am chilly toward her (as imin, below, or above) has thrown out there. And an interesting experiment btw!

Maybe she is a bit more like Feanor in spirit, but not in craft. And maybe that's why she feels such kinship with SoF -- those free-spirited (self-centred), passionate (impulsive) souls...


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 8:52am

Post #309 of 381 (4029 views)
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Not at the chilly bit yet. [In reply to] Can't Post

Ningon has to meet the dark elf female who is Eóls equivalent (youll beable to name her, i dont have your linguistic skill) She uses some underhand trick to render him "not unwilling". Or at least to leave us wondering whether the situation has been not unmaniplulated.

They have a child.

The chills set in for me when she won't let Ningon and Junior leave.

What does the over possessive she elf do though: tracking Ningon with the intent to recapture or murder him? That shell doesn't seem to fit in my head-cannon...

Not sure why a young single she elf abroad seems ok to me, but a vengeful mother not.

By the way, excellent ventriloquism: maybe we should get you to fix up some other bits of the tale...

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 12:34pm

Post #310 of 381 (4012 views)
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ah, but it's [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Ningon has to meet the dark elf female who is Eóls equivalent (youll beable to name her, i dont have your linguistic skill) She uses some underhand trick to render him "not unwilling". Or at least to leave us wondering whether the situation has been not unmaniplulated.

They have a child.

The chills set in for me when she won't let Ningon and Junior leave.

What does the over possessive she elf do though: tracking Ningon with the intent to recapture or murder him? That shell doesn't seem to fit in my head-cannon...

Not sure why a young single she elf abroad seems ok to me, but a vengeful mother not.

By the way, excellent ventriloquism: maybe we should get you to fix up some other bits of the tale...



ah, but it's not eol of whom folks (me, brethil, curiousg) have stated they've always felt a it of a chilly personality....but aredhel.


so, eventually ningon will meet up with eolwen, who has completely manufactured the meeting by enchanted arts (perhaps an enchantrix on the level of luthien), and it is eolwen who will apply the rules (no walking about by day, etc.).

i think doing the gender flip has softened up aredhel for me a bit... 'tho it is indeed inescapable that she's breaking one of the safety rules.

i also wonder about gondolin, the migration, and the rules..... as has been mentioned earlier in the previous chapter discussion, how exactly did they achieve this migration. did everyone willingly go? were some given an option to depart for other kingdoms before the emigrated, even if they weren't informed of the secret city itself?

i'm also assuming, whatever was the case for the regular nevrast elf, aredhel was probably in on the king's counsel, meaning, turgon probably discussed with aredhel the whole secret city at some point before the emigration.

i wonder... .did he let her know beforehand that, once inside, she would not be allowed to leave? did he lay out the rules beforehand, so she might have had the choice to go live with her other brother, fingon, instead?


ha! : ) thanks for the kind words about the ventriloquism. it's sort of a neat experiment, that can be reconstituted wherever we like.

a female feanor! feanorwen!
feanorwen has seven daughters!

a female fingolfin! fingolfiniel!

elrosiel and elrondwen are twins. elrosiel goes on to found an entire queendom.


instead of the house of finwe having 20 male descendants and only 4 (!) female descendants (or 7, if you count finwe's missing daughters with indis), we have 20 female characters and 4 (or 7) male ones....

this is, btw, an example of gender imbalance with tolkien (whom i love!). i'm often like... +where are the females+?!!!! (the wives of feanor, fingolfin, curufin, fingon, turgon, orodreth are not even listed on the sil family tree -- 'tho perhaps we can lay that at the feet of christopher... not sure).

i love the idea of gender flipping the entire house of finwe.... how much in love with tolkien would everyone be if they had to read about the lives of 20 female characters and only 4 (or 7) male ones (yes, i know we have luthien, etc., but you see my point, i think).



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 8 2013, 12:40pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 1:50pm

Post #311 of 381 (4013 views)
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You may call me "Mr. point"...if I ask about Air-hed-rel [In reply to] Can't Post

You may call me "Mr. point" (if I "miss da point" many more times).

OK, so we are seeing Aredhel as "chilly" as in self-centered? I must say I was seeing her rather as Air-head-rel - willfully doing what she wants to do, whether or not prohibitions placed on her say not to, and whether those bans are all that reasonable. Removing the gender question, do we have a theme about "when is it reasonable to break the rules"?:

  1. Person X pleads for exception to a general rule and is granted it
  2. X now breaks conditions upon which exception was granted - was being deceitful all along, perhaps - this endangers X and others
  3. X gets married, and this once again leads to a situation, a larger-stakes one this time, where X wants to break the Rules (its harder to understand the reasoning behind the rules this time, and the authorities are not being accommodating this time about granting exceptions)
  4. X breaks the rules anyway, and disaster follows - results in death of X

If that's the theme, it's executed in an unexpected way. (The "expected way" form me would be that Air-head-rel knows best, leaves Gondolin, but is pursued home by evil forces and comes very close to betraying her whole family before a bit of peril and then things move to a happy ending. Oh, but that's pretty much the plot of Disney's Little Mermaid Aeriel. The names are even similar. FrownTongueUnsure Pirate - we don't have a "throwing up" emoticon.)

Was that, *puff, pant: catching up intellectually* why you tried substituting Air-head-rel for Ningon - avoid issues such as one gender dominating another; whether it's OK for the girls to go out on errantry?

I see Ningon as the kind of character who is popular in a lot of fiction. Brilliant young rebellions fella - does the opposite to what those boring ole stodgy grownups want, but it all works out well. The Tom Cruise character in Top Gun, perhaps, or Captain Kirk, or those many detectives who are unconventional enough to be made to turn in their badges nearly every show, before going on brilliantly to solve the case.

I Did enjoy Ningon, &was inspired to try the tale of Éower, White Lord of Rohan (where it seemed to fit appropriately, on another of our gender-role-based threads this week.)

Am I still Mr. Point?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 2:58pm

Post #312 of 381 (4002 views)
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heya : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 


In Reply To
1. Person X pleads for exception to a general rule and is granted it
2. X now breaks conditions upon which exception was granted - was being deceitful all along, perhaps - this endangers X and others
3. X gets married, and this once again leads to a situation, a larger-stakes one this time, where X wants to break the Rules (its harder to understand the reasoning behind the rules this time, and the authorities are not being accommodating this time about granting exceptions)
4. X breaks the rules anyway, and disaster follows - results in death of X




i'm not sure #2 is applicable to aredhel... she flat-out told turgon at the beginning that she would go where her mood took her, if she felt like it. so i think turgon hoped she would go to fingon, but suspected she might seek the sons of feanor. so, there was no deception or rule-breaking on that point.

traditionally, when females break the rules something bad seems to happen, but males breaking the rules is seen as a sign of laudable independence, and if they happen to break some west farthing crockery along the way, what does it matter? i think that's slowly changing in the storytelling we see across the media of our culture. the u.s., in particular, +loves+ the rebel archetype, the individual.... so a lot of the recent "girl power" and appearance of strong females owes a lot to the united states' love of people who do it their own way (and feminism is certainly at play here as well), and the u.s. is more wiling to have that independent spirit be female than a lot of other cultures, because it's so in love with the archetype.

i do see aredhel as a bit heedless and self-centered (can't speak for anyone else). part of my assessment of her orbits the question of whether she "knew the rules" before going to gondolin. if she had a (knowing) choice to go live with fingon, rather than stay cooped up with turgon (albeit beautifully). and she had a huge (+huge+) area in which to roam around, in and around gondolin, but if there's a "do not cross" sign, for the adventurous or contrarian or bucker of authority (aredhel, the numenorians), this probably acts like catnip to a peripatetic feline. there was no way aredhel was going to stay in gondolin, as long as there was a fence around it. and she wouldn't have fared any better in doriath.

also, even if she knew the rules, i don't know if it was all that awful to ask to leave. i think the bad part was going back, which, while understandable, in her particular scenario (knowing eol might be hot on their elven heels) was a bad, risky idea. why not hang out with one of the sons of feanor for a while (as has been said earlier)? surely, her friends and cousins would have +loved+ to protect her against eol (who, btw -- was talking with curufin about aredhel's whereabouts while probably having the poisoned javelin on his person at that moment --- urghhh).




In Reply To
If that's the theme, it's executed in an unexpected way. (The "expected way" form me would be that Air-head-rel knows best, leaves Gondolin, but is pursued home by evil forces and comes very close to betraying her whole family before a bit of peril and then things move to a happy ending. Oh, but that's pretty much the plot of Disney's Little Mermaid Aeriel. The names are even similar. - we don't have a "throwing up" emoticon.)

Was that, *puff, pant: catching up intellectually* why you tried substituting Air-head-rel for Ningon - avoid issues such as one gender dominating another; whether it's OK for the girls to go out on errantry?





i switched the gender to see if we could view this individual's actions in a new light; to see if our vision of aredhel was clouded (or not) by what we expect of females. do we view adventurous females more negatively? females who venture out on their own more negatively? females who will not be caged? females who are rebellious? i think we do, a bit. certainly historically so.

also, i think if aredhel just liked a different color, she might seem (a little) less chilly. something like, "the golden lady of the noldor." of, if galadriel didn't like that, the "rose of the noldor," if pink was her favorite color.




In Reply To
I see Ningon as the kind of character who is popular in a lot of fiction. Brilliant young rebellions fella - does the opposite to what those boring ole stodgy grownups want, but it all works out well. The Tom Cruise character in Top Gun, perhaps, or Captain Kirk, or those many detectives who are unconventional enough to be made to turn in their badges nearly every show, before going on brilliantly to solve the case.





yes! me too. an adventurous sort who can sometimes be a blockhead or a hothead, but we look up to them anyway. excellent analysis! : )

i wonder how we all would have reacted if feanor were female, and the rest stayed the same? i don't think there'd be as much of a feanorwen fan club, as there is a feanor one.


cheers, and thanks so much for the great post. : ) (and yes, i saw your gender-bending with eowyn... you are always an enjoyable rascal. : ) )


cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Escapist
Gondor


Jun 8 2013, 3:14pm

Post #313 of 381 (3993 views)
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You make some insightful points. [In reply to] Can't Post

I keep going back to the character of Eowyin. Tolkien did such a great job with her story because she bucked the traditions, was met with the classic resistance that comes with that for women (call it fair or not), and overcame it.

It is far more realistic to show that such "breaking of the rules" gets met with resistance to be overcome - than to trivialize the struggles so many women face by leaving that part of it out or pretending it doesn't happen. All it takes is a tiny little peanut gallery of folks with the opinion that women don't belong here-or-there doing this-or-that to create an obstacle to overcome. Those people always find a way to exist.

And furthermore, I do think that men who buck the system get accepted when those men are in positions of authority and leadership by some individuals who idolize and follow them (often to ruin). But they also get resistance that often amounts to jail-time. I look at the example of Feanor - major favorite character for some, majorly hated by others - and plenty of consequences for his actions.

Bucking the social order always comes at a price - unless you are the lord (either officially or de-facto) of that order.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 3:18pm

Post #314 of 381 (4007 views)
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In the interests of gender balance, you may also call me Ms daPointe... [In reply to] Can't Post

…who I imagine as a formidable ballet teacher.

Glad I'm mostly keeping up.


If this thread exceeds 500 posts we have to buy a new server, you know.
Nah, I just made that up.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 3:24pm

Post #315 of 381 (4054 views)
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nice to see you : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
nice to see you, escapist. : )

eowyn is such an intriguing example. historically, in the cultures tolkien drew from, there was more room for female warriors. tolkien's natural feeling that the genders were equal (but different) can be seen all throughout his writing, but probably can be seen best in the examples of eowyn and galadriel. tolkien was ahead of his time in +so+ many ways (even, it seems, of more advanced thinking in some ways than christopher -- if we are to judge christopher only by what he excised out of the silmarillion regarding female characters).

i'm grateful to have such a spirited character as aredhel at all. and it's not like her choices, soley hers, doom gondolin. so this is not a cautionary tale of females needing to stay in the castle.

i still do think feanor, if tolkien had made the character female, would not have the same fan base that exists now. not saying the female feanor would be excoriated by all, but there would be a sharp decline in popularity, and a +lot+ more calumny.

and so agreed re all that females have to endure to buck the system, make progress, etc.

cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 3:25pm

Post #316 of 381 (3994 views)
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lol! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
[nowime]

If this thread exceeds 500 posts we have to buy a new server, you know.

[/nowime]


lol!!!


btw, i keep on thinking of your new incarnation as "mr. pointy," which would make you buffy's stake.


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 4:08pm

Post #317 of 381 (4002 views)
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Mr Pointy? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's the fake elf/ Vulcan ears

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 4:29pm

Post #318 of 381 (3995 views)
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One chilly thing about Aredhel and her guards [In reply to] Can't Post

I find Aredhel's treatment of her guards to be deplorably self-centered. Royal guards who don't guard the royals get into trouble, and they were ordered to take her to Fingon (if they could). I can't imagine Turgon being pleased with them that they broke his orders, and they did so because they weren't going to let her wander off alone (though to give her a point, she traveled quite well on her own).

She chooses to travel through what is a very, very dangerous region, and they are honor-bound to stick with her, so she endangers their lives. Does she care? Then they are lost, she looks for them without success, and what does she do next? She goes off to party with her cousins! Does she think she should go back to Gondolin (or the SOF) and say, "I lost my guards. They might need help. Get a group together so we can find them."? No. I find her more immature than rebellious. There is the "cool" factor that she's willing to travel through a danger zone, but not that she endangers others and abandons them. A male character doing that would be just as obnoxious.

(Another chilly thing. White doesn't always seem sterile and chilly, but it somehow does with her. I don't find Galadriel or Gandalf chilly when they're in white. I don't know why.)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 4:43pm

Post #319 of 381 (3990 views)
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from [In reply to] Can't Post

 
...buffy the vampire slayer (the series). buffy called her stake(s), "mr. pointy."

cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 4:50pm

Post #320 of 381 (3987 views)
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agreed, agreed, agreed! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
but with some amendments.

aredhel had already told turgon that, if the mood struck her, she would go someplace else, other than to fingon. so i think turgon had that in mind when he was ordering the escort to convey her to fingon "if they could."

also, i just get the vibe that aredhel's not calling out a search party for her guards hen she meets up with her cousin(s) is more tolkien overlooking that detail, and it winds up being a chargeable offense for aredhel. (shrug) just my take. he does provide a lot of detail, but every author is surprised with what the readers can come up with. nevertheless, she did not take that action, and that was +deplorable+.

my emerging picture of aredhel, with all of this discussion... more points to her for bravery and skill and independence. more points detracted for lack of empathy and poor choices.

this is a character, because of these conflicts, that i would +love+ to see on the screen by a +good+ actor. i imagine the character would become +so+ much more complex than she is here (not that she's cardboard, in her present incarnation).

interesting about gandalf and galadriel in white. i would echo those sentiments. what color are your robes, randalf?




cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 4:50pm

Post #321 of 381 (3980 views)
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Ah. Haven't seen much Buffy. Also thinking "Misty Point" sound like a good locale for gothic adventures // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 4:55pm

Post #322 of 381 (3982 views)
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-funny - [In reply to] Can't Post

 
when i read "misty point," i thought of a melodramatically named heroine in a romance novel. you know, the one who is a spitfire, and ravishingly beautiful (but doesn't know it) and is a tomboy -- who captures the attention of the corsair-knight-highwayman who is catnip to the ladies but can never be in one place or with one woman too long ---- until --- he meets +her+.

lol!

(i'm cracking myself up. admittedly, not a hard thing to do...)


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 5:09pm

Post #323 of 381 (3981 views)
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misty point [In reply to] Can't Post

 
misty point, the gray lady of the elves, lived with her brother, king rebyll in the hidden city of stonedoom.

lady misty was a free spirit, and loved to ride and shoot and explore. she could hunt and fight as well as any male elf, and all men who met her fell hopelessly in love with her. but she was totally unaware of her beauty, because, growing up, she was not the prettiest of elves, and was considered the ugly duckling. now, she was a beautiful, white swan.

one day, lady misty became restless, and couldn't stay in stonedoom any longer. as a courtesy, she asked her brother, rebyll, for leave to depart. he was wounded that she would want to leave, but he could refuse his beautiful, untamed sister nothing.

so, she ventured forth, with a guard of honor -- which lady misty did not need, because she could track her way in the wilderness better than any other elf in the kingdom -- but they fell far behind, because she had more stamina and she always wanted to go one step further. eventually, they lost her, and she went on for a while, not knowing they were separated.

then, suddenly a confusing twilight occurred, and she lost her way. she knew it had to be enchantment, because under normal circumstances, she would +never+ get lost. and she soon discovered why. a dark elf, who had a rebellious and independent spirit like her own, had seen her from afar and had fallen in love with her, like so many others.

he was tall, and dark, and so handsome. he took lady misty's breath away. he lived alone, but decided to put away his solitude to be with her. together they explored the country around their castle at night. eventually, they had a son, who was the heir to his uncle rebyll's kingdom as well as incredibly talented in speaking, making swords and weapons, and even reading minds.



i sincerely hope that someone by now has lost their lembas.

if someone has not lost their lembas, i have not done my job.



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 8 2013, 5:12pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 5:10pm

Post #324 of 381 (3982 views)
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Is Éowyn a good compare/contrast [In reply to] Can't Post

Also doesn't do what she's supposed to: Setting out as part of Théodens host is pretty selfish. She thinks she's been left to guard the home front because she's not seen as good enough for anything else: I've wondered whether instead Théoden knows he needs a steady officer there, and that she alone would be able to hold it together to give a defeated Rohirrim somewhere to regroup.

Éowyn story also climaxes in a Dramatic self-sacrificing act (though she survives fighting the Witch King, as opposed to taking the poisoned spear and dying).

We are closer in to the action & can see what's driving Éowyn: if her story was told i the far-off style of the Sil. Maybe we'd think Éowyn chilly too?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 5:19pm

Post #325 of 381 (3982 views)
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Then they invent a new high performance aircraft, the Spitfire, and fly away? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 5:21pm

Post #326 of 381 (3999 views)
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+wow+ interesting point [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Also doesn't do what she's supposed to: Setting out as part of Théodens host is pretty selfish. She thinks she's been left to guard the home front because she's not seen as good enough for anything else: I've wondered whether instead Théoden knows he needs a steady officer there, and that she alone would be able to hold it together to give a defeated Rohirrim somewhere to regroup.

Éowyn story also climaxes in a Dramatic self-sacrificing act (though she survives fighting the Witch King, as opposed to taking the poisoned spear and dying).

We are closer in to the action & can see what's driving Éowyn: if her story was told i the far-off style of the Sil. Maybe we'd think Éowyn chilly too?




wow, interesting point about the style of storytelling influencing how we might perceive eowyn (and aredhel) (!)

i +do+ think aredhel would look better in another format. upthread i envisioned her looking more complex and sympathetic (but not without fault) as a film character, but -- as you say -- even just a shift in writing style would probably give her a better presentation.

and i really think eowyn might suffer if given the reverse style. she indeed might come off as more chilly (not the least for her choice of wardrobe color).

i absolutely agree.... eowyn +abandoned+ her charge. the people left behind needed someone to lead them, both while the king was off fighting +and+ in case he and eomer didn't come back. also, as you say, if things went horribly wrong, sauron's forces would be sweeping towards rohan, and they would need a leader for that, who had some military sense.

i think theoden king did not want eowyn at the battle for a few reasons:

1. don't put all the royal eggs in one basket
2. need a fall back position, with someone capable in charge
3. he loves eowyn, and wants to protect her

... but in all the talk of eowyn, we really never hear a lot of complaining or accusation that she was derelict in her duty (which she was) -- because she was so kick-ass in the battle. this is +very+ much how male iconoclasts are treated. which is neat to observe.

great point, mr. pointy! great post!


cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 5:48pm

Post #327 of 381 (3984 views)
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Yep: we like Éowyn, and her actions work out well... [In reply to] Can't Post

But I did suggest a literal minded authority would want to court marshalling her! (as part of the Law and Arda discussion http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=608522#608522 )

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 5:51pm

Post #328 of 381 (3992 views)
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i haven't had time [In reply to] Can't Post

 
to even read that thread, much less respond... am looking forward to doing so when my hostatrix duties for sil discussion are transferred to the next chapter ("of the coming of men into the west" -- did i get the wording right?), with sador.

so many great threads in the reading room!!! can't keep up!!! : )

+lmdao+ at court-marshalling eowyn! +totally+ legit. : )

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 6:28pm

Post #329 of 381 (3994 views)
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It was a good thread: worth checking out when you're not performing your -trix // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 6:39pm

Post #330 of 381 (3968 views)
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A big contrast point between Éowyn and Aredhel... [In reply to] Can't Post

A big contrast point between Éowyn and Aredhel is that Éowyn's actions in her Dernhelm stunt are those of a desperate person. The court should blame that on the psychological warfare of the Enemy, which was terrifically potent - as we know from its effect on the late King Theoden. My sister officer has a long record of impeccable service, and moreover has no intention of becoming Dernhelm again.

Contrast: As far as I read , Aredhel wants to leave Gondolin only out of boredom and regret at being unable to see her friends.

(Aredhel may be more desperate when she undertakes the return journey. )

Since Aredhel does not survive taking the javelin for Maeglin, we don't learn her future intentions.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 8:26pm

Post #331 of 381 (3983 views)
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Nicely delineated Furuncurunir [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
A big contrast point between Éowyn and Aredhel is that Éowyn's actions in her Dernhelm stunt are those of a desperate person. The court should blame that on the psychological warfare of the Enemy, which was terrifically potent - as we know from its effect on the late King Theoden. My sister officer has a long record of impeccable service, and moreover has no intention of becoming Dernhelm again.

Contrast: As far as I read , Aredhel wants to leave Gondolin only out of boredom and regret at being unable to see her friends.

(Aredhel may be more desperate when she undertakes the return journey. )

Since Aredhel does not survive taking the javelin for Maeglin, we don't learn her future intentions.




I see your point very well (you wrote it very well!), and I think its what I was feeling too. Eowyn's 'captivity' and desperation I think has a lot more grief involved with it, with male after male in her family slain while she feels like she sits by and does nothing: a very destructive type of powerlessness in a strong-willed, brave soul. I just don't get quite that level of desperation from Aredhel, though she has courage: the desire to walk in the woods doesn't quite match up. And their cardinal aims are very different: Aredhel wants her freedom to visit and go where she will, Eowyn rides forth with death in honor as her goal.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 8:40pm

Post #332 of 381 (3969 views)
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:) the court marshal defence was hoping to call Dr Brethil as expert witness to consider Éowyns mental state. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 10:28pm

Post #333 of 381 (3983 views)
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agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

 
agreed, brethil (and very nicely stated, btw)...

my gut reaction is similar. eowyn just reeks of some sort of sadness at her core. i'm reminded of a scene in ttt when they're all travelling to the hornberg, and gimli tells eowyn about dwarf women and then falls off his horse. she laughs a few times throughout, and it is a creaky, awkward, rusty laugh. i cannot help but think that was the result of a very careful and thoughtful choice on behalf of miranda otto -- when is the last time, do you think, that eowyn laughed?

let's imagine aredhel arguing with her brother that her place is outside, on the front lines, with fingolfin or fingon, close to the action, and she leaves gondolin with a sword in her hand, travelling towards the general vacinity of angband. she sure seems a lot more admirable now.


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 10:33pm

Post #334 of 381 (3966 views)
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Eowyn onscreen [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
agreed, brethil (and very nicely stated, btw)...
my gut reaction is similar. eowyn just reeks of some sort of sadness at her core. i'm reminded of a scene in ttt when they're all travelling to the hornberg, and gimli tells eowyn about dwarf women and then falls off his horse. she laughs a few times throughout, and it is a creaky, awkward, rusty laugh. i cannot help but think that was the result of a very careful and thoughtful choice on behalf of miranda otto -- when is the last time, do you think, that eowyn laughed?

That's a *great* foray into the visual!!!!! You're right, it seems like she doesn't laugh easily, doesn't quite know how, whereas even Argaorn, with so much on his shoulders, makes that minxish joke in the first place...makes the idea of the Houses of Healing even more clear, as Eowyn doesn't just need rest, or her arm fixed - she needs healing in a very deep sense. I too commend the scene! Excellent point, well made Telpemairo!!!!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 10:40pm

Post #335 of 381 (3971 views)
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Eowyn's Mental State in the ME DSM... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Middle Earth DSM might include:

Nan Elmoth Syndrome
Black Breath Disorder
Mad Baggins Disease
Gollumphrenia
Oath Psychoses (Jewel and Non-Jewel Mediated)
Dragon Sickness
And the disturbing set of symptoms known as the Hurin Offspring Sequelae.

Of course for Eowyn I presume Post-Traumatic Shieldmaiden's Disorder might do the trick. Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 10:41pm

Post #336 of 381 (3967 views)
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ah, thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

 
: )

i can never watch that scene without hearing those qualities in her laugh.

i wonder if, in part, eowyn was attracted to aragorn not just because he was this great commander of edain and a heroic figure, but because she could sense the healing qualities in him as well.

so much focus on eowyn is on her heroic fight (which is worthy of so much discussion). but i find her journey towards healing +so+ incredibly moving.

again, in the films, when she is in the houses of healing, with howard shore's score (which, in my opinion, has healing qualities of its own), and aragorn attends to her, and she takes her first, unburdened breath, and opens her eyes... the healing that has begun is not only from the black, poisonous wound from the witch king, or the commonplace wounds from battle, but the emotional and spiritual mutilation that has been bleeding internally for years.

one thing we can say about eowyn --- she surely had better taste in males then elf-wise aredhel did.




cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 10:42pm

Post #337 of 381 (3954 views)
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i love... !!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i love "mad baggins disease"!!!!!!!!!!!!


cheers : ) (!!!!!!)


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 1:12am

Post #338 of 381 (3955 views)
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I dunno [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought of the comparison as I wrote that reply on Aredhel: they both broke rules and were tough, etc. But their motivations were very different. Aredhel wanted to have fun, and Eowyn wanted to die (or had given up any hope of having fun). Aredhel was indifferent to the plight of her guards, whereas Eowyn saw Merry in distress and took him along with her. When Eowyn got into battle, she stayed close to Theoden to protect him. Even down and out, Eowyn thought about other people.

You're right about them both being self-sacrificing, and that's one time I think Aredhel is noble. The other time is when she asks Turgon to not kill Eol after he's wounded her. But overall, I don't feel much reader loss when she dies, as in: "Oh, no, there goes a great character!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 1:18am

Post #339 of 381 (3953 views)
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Mad Baggins... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
i love "mad baggins disease"!!!!!!!!!!!!




Glad you like it!
(Why do I have the feeling Furuncurunir will come along and add about fifty hysterical diagnoses to that list?!)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 2:03am

Post #340 of 381 (3960 views)
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I like this one best (they're all great) [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Post-Traumatic Shieldmaiden's Disorder


How about "annulmania", which is my crude Latin translation of "ring sickness."

But I want to try checking into an ER and telling them I have Black Breath Disorder, and are there any Tolkien-literate doctors in the house who know what that means, and does the pharmacy carry athelas tea? I'll tell them my health insurance is the Valinor plan (meaning if I die, I hope I go there).





Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 9 2013, 3:39am

Post #341 of 381 (3950 views)
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Eowyn's laugh [In reply to] Can't Post

Funny that you say that. For me, it sounds very beautiful and delightful to my ears. Listening to her laugh is actually one of my favorite parts of the film.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 6:47am

Post #342 of 381 (3938 views)
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Great list if syndromes! [In reply to] Can't Post

How about: Obsessive Wing Enumeration Disorder (mostly affects Balrogs )

Gollumphrenia? I thought that was a concept album by The Who?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 9 2013, 7:48am

Post #343 of 381 (3947 views)
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megafeanomania [In reply to] Can't Post

 
megafeanomania --

the feeling that one is the greatest in everything. marked by excessive and compulsive bouts of swearing.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 9:53am

Post #344 of 381 (3945 views)
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Moral luck [In reply to] Can't Post

I think there's another factor - in fiction and real life, we often judge people by the results of their actions, even though those are often at least partly out of the person's control.

So:
Pick up the Battle of Pellanor Fields at the point where Eomer has seen his sister apparently dead and led a berserker charge into the middle of the enemy. You'll recall that he's become surrounded and is at the point of ordering a last shieldwall stand (at this point in Tolkien's tale, Aragorn et al turn up on the captured Corsair ships). But let's experimentally put Aragorn's arrival back half an hour - his forces arrive to win the day, but to find the last few Rohirrim survivors, the shieldwall having been formed and overwhelmed. Do we feel any different about Eowyn now?

Conversely:
Imagine Aredhel and her guards set out and discover that an Orcish observation post has been set up near Gondolin. Unfortunately it's positioned such that Morgoth is surely about to discover where the hidden city is. She cleverly rides to find the nearest other Noldor troops, who drive off the orcs, saving the secret of Gondolin. Now she's our hero, and Turgon might be willing to relax his "once in, never out" rule to take the risk of patrols.

The point is that I changed the consequences of the characters' actions, without affecting their original motives or actions (as far as we know them).

I think this concept is called moral luck - whether you end up being regarded as a hero or villain or a dunce can have an element of luck as well as character to it!

I also wanted to pick up on Maciliel's earlier observation that there appears to be a double-standard: wilful males are more likely to be admired than wilful females. And in stories, wilful males are more likely to be rewarded with success, but wilful females with comeuppance. I agree. Maybe that is because a lot of societies seem to want to protect their womenfolk more - so maybe we dwell more on what "might have happened" to the wilful lady, and have many stories on the Tree of Tales which teach male risk-taking and female caution?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 9:56am

Post #345 of 381 (3947 views)
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Mumak-sized and yet agile and hard to keep up with (That's this thread, not me! ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Did you raise the Aredhel/Eowyn comparison before? Sorry if I seemed to appropriate it!

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 10:02am

Post #346 of 381 (3942 views)
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Just to remark - the next chapter is up! [In reply to] Can't Post

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=612037#612037
Not that we need to stop here, but we will surely also want to discuss "Of the Coming of Men into the West"

[I did initially type "we will surely also want to discuss the coming of Men", but that read a bit oddly.....Blush ]

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 9 2013, 12:30pm

Post #347 of 381 (3927 views)
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moral luck [In reply to] Can't Post

 
wow, nowime, i've never heard of the phrase "moral luck" before ('tho of course have thought about its effect on scenarios --- people do the "what if" a lot, certainly on this thread).

i love your "what if" scenario for aredhel (the orc-post, making the equation willfulness + orc post = hero. much to think on there. and "what if" she discovered that orc outpost before -- or -- after -- she was ensnared by eol. does the difference in sequence of events make her seem more or less the hero?

btw --- the cautionary tales re females that seem constructed to punish their independence..... i largely view these as society's desire to +control+ females, rather than to protect them.

look at where this kind of "protection" lives in the real world. in those societies, women are barred from things like driving, going out alone, choosing life partners for themselves, etc. some are even banned from showing their faces at all in public, in order to "protect" them. i suspect this potentially may be a more incendiary statement for the reading room, given different political and religious opinions and differing cultures that exist in the world, but, well..... there it is.


thank you for introducing me to the (very handy) concept of moral luck. : )


many cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 9 2013, 12:31pm

Post #348 of 381 (3924 views)
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for future reference, we can call this thread... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
the "mumak thread" or the "oliphaunt thread."

cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 9 2013, 1:20pm

Post #349 of 381 (3916 views)
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since were talking about females... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
since we're talking about females and (some) males' desire to control females i wanted to share these +incredibly+ moving, personal accounts of domestic violence, generously told by patrick stewart.

growing up, stewart's dad regularly and horrifically beat his mother. stewart says that he couldn't do anything about it when he was a child, so he's doing something about it now. i was moved to tears, and you, too, may be....

+so+ worth the listen...

patrick stewart's personal story about domestic violence, first clip

patrick stewart's personal story about domestic violence, second clip


cheers, and hope you think it's worthwhile --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 9 2013, 1:20pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 1:32pm

Post #350 of 381 (3918 views)
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More about moral luck [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm relating what I've read in an interesting book "Game of Thrones and Philosophy" (subtitle "Logic Cuts Deeper Than Swords" Smile ) Henry Jacoby (Ed) its in the Blackwell Philosophy and Pop Culture Series (Published by Wiley). An interesting book: they have a series of essays in which philosophers pick out episodes from GoT (in this case) and use them to illustrate philosophical ideas. The Contributors have several interesting points to make about Westeros, many if which, as here, can be applied to other stories.

Here's a link to Wiley's page about the series, in case that interests: http://eu.wiley.com/WileyCDA/Section/id-324354.html?sort=DATE&sortDirection=DESC&page=1

Moral luck is the work of the philosopher Nagel, who I haven't read. But maybe someone here has and would like to comment further?

I agree with you that the line between protecting someone and controlling them is not a clear one. Rather regret putting "protecting" as it seems to put me on one side of a debate, & Im not sure Id be there if we were debating (which i also suggest we dont!)
I'd be happy for my post to be read "protecting (or controlling)..." Or strike protecting & mentally replace it with controlling, as the reader wishes.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 1:47pm

Post #351 of 381 (3995 views)
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This made me wince as well as smile... [In reply to] Can't Post

Some people are completely oblivious to the role their own actions play in what happens to them. I can imagine Eol writing pretty much exactly your text in his letter to Auntie Arwen (see http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=609008#609008 )

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 1:48pm

Post #352 of 381 (4005 views)
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Hey, I was poster #350: do I get to lick the paddle? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 9 2013, 1:50pm

Post #353 of 381 (3993 views)
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ha! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
that evoked a sol from me ("smile out loud"). : )

yes, yes you do! : )

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 9 2013, 2:02pm

Post #354 of 381 (3987 views)
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in the same vein... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
this is a book i've begun to read. it's small, short, and uses examples of jokes to explain philosophy, and why we find the jokes funny...


plato and a platypus walk into a bar


thanks for the heads up re the game of thrones book, and the entire philosophy series there... i'm checking it out...


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 9 2013, 2:02pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 2:17pm

Post #355 of 381 (3987 views)
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Oh, those women, and alternate endings [In reply to] Can't Post

How come we're still talking about women in a thread that is clearly "Of Maeglin"? Isn't this how the poor lad got twisted, by having his needs neglected and expectations unmet? "No name for you, boy, not while we're debating your mama."

Does our debate rage on because Maeglin is clearly a bad guy, and Aredhel is on the good side? Though I can be critical of her, I think I'm explaining my thoughts about her rather than disliking her. I do dislike Maeglin. I don't like Balrogs, either. Any of them. And if I go on a Sunday morning random tangent, it's racist of me to dislike Balrogs, isn't it? Have I ever met any? No. Do I think they're all the same? Yes. Are my opinions entirely formed by others? Oh, my, I've gotten into a shameful spot.

Okay, back to women, or moral luck, in this case. I like your point a lot, Wiz, and it's fun to play with as an extension of what ifs. It's not about plot what ifs, but reader reaction what ifs. If Eowyn had died in her battle with the Witch-King, I wouldn't dislike her, but I'd probably conclude that it's her fault (loosely) for having a death wish that led her into a fight she was doomed to lose. If only she'd thought with a clearer head! I'd feel sorry for her, but not call her a hero, just self-destructive.

Good points on *ahem* The Lady Who Gave Birth To Maeglin who has no name. Several things could change in the story that would alter my perception of her. She could defy Turgon and ride happily to Feanor-son-land, discover Eol and wholly willingly marry him, then their marriage could turn sour, and she could grab her boy (who is Maeglin) and run back to Gondolin. That's all plausible given her personality. In fact, given how headstrong this nameless woman is, it might make more sense for her to make the first move on Eol in a rebellious act of marriage.

As far as consequences go, I don't blame her for the eventual fall of Gondolin, I blame Maeglin for that. But let's say the chapter was exactly the same in the early parts, where I find her immature, and Maeglin saved Gondolin. Then I'd think she was a ditzy girl, but she was worth it. I might even condescend to give her a name.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 2:42pm

Post #356 of 381 (3994 views)
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It might be a fun writing exercise... [In reply to] Can't Post

...to write the chapter in the LOTR historical novel style rather than the more-remote-from-the-action Silmarillion history style.

Do it different ways- without altering the canonical events, make different characters sympathetic or unsympathetic.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Jun 10 2013, 5:48pm

Post #357 of 381 (3972 views)
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Great analysis of Aredhel's treatment of her guards [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I find Aredhel's treatment of her guards to be deplorably self-centered. Royal guards who don't guard the royals get into trouble, and they were ordered to take her to Fingon (if they could). I can't imagine Turgon being pleased with them that they broke his orders, and they did so because they weren't going to let her wander off alone (though to give her a point, she traveled quite well on her own).

She chooses to travel through what is a very, very dangerous region, and they are honor-bound to stick with her, so she endangers their lives. Does she care? Then they are lost, she looks for them without success, and what does she do next? She goes off to party with her cousins! Does she think she should go back to Gondolin (or the SOF) and say, "I lost my guards. They might need help. Get a group together so we can find them."? No. I find her more immature than rebellious. There is the "cool" factor that she's willing to travel through a danger zone, but not that she endangers others and abandons them. A male character doing that would be just as obnoxious.

(Another chilly thing. White doesn't always seem sterile and chilly, but it somehow does with her. I don't find Galadriel or Gandalf chilly when they're in white. I don't know why.)

**************************************
GREAT analysis about Aredhel's treatment of her guards. Gosh this is an awesome thread !!!!Smile



CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 10 2013, 7:11pm

Post #358 of 381 (3962 views)
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Thanks for the kind words, Itnjmy! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 10 2013, 9:40pm

Post #359 of 381 (3971 views)
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thanks so much : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
thanks so much ltnjmy... it's so nice to have you here. : )


does this discussion change your mind in any way about aredhel? what did you think of her previously?


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 10 2013, 9:41pm

Post #360 of 381 (3961 views)
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this would [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...to write the chapter in the LOTR historical novel style rather than the more-remote-from-the-action Silmarillion history style.

Do it different ways- without altering the canonical events, make different characters sympathetic or unsympathetic.



this would +totally+ be incredibly neat. : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 11 2013, 3:22am

Post #361 of 381 (3959 views)
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Funny you mention that [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope this hasn't been mentioned already in the four billion posts in this thread (Wink), but Tolkien actually wrote this chapter with more immediate and fuller descriptions. Christopher tells in The War of the Jewels that he actually tweaked it to be more in the style of the rest of The Silmarillion.

Anyway, I just found it ironic that you would suggest that for this chapter when it's possibly the least remote in style as written by Tolkien.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 11 2013, 3:26am

Post #362 of 381 (3964 views)
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Aredhel's guards [In reply to] Can't Post

Again, I don't know if this has already been covered in the thread, but Tolkien had originally written that two of these guards were Glorfindel and Ecthelion. I think he removed their names because he felt the episode made them feel inept, but I'd say your description is probably more fitting - that Aredhel is too selfish and their losing her isn't really their fault.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 11 2013, 6:17am

Post #363 of 381 (3957 views)
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I think it frustrates because stylistically we're left with a half way house [In reply to] Can't Post

We see enough hints of the character motives to make this discussion possible, in a way that comes up less with the more chronicle-styled chapters. But we don't have the full novelists tool set deployed.

I confess a preference for stories over chronicles: perhaps I'm just reporting that.

Ps if anyone knows the proper critical terms for "novel style" versus "chronicle style" , I'd like to learn them.

"Novel style"? Sorry if I've just given you a Psy earworm!

I've got a character
Give her motives, make her clear....

Ohhhh, Chilly Lady
Opa Novel Style!

Etc. ad nauseum

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Jun 11 2013, 2:24pm

Post #364 of 381 (3960 views)
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Of Maeglin - Reply (That is Why this is One of the Greatest Chapters Written by Prof. Tolkien) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
thanks so much ltnjmy... it's so nice to have you here. : )


does this discussion change your mind in any way about aredhel? what did you think of her previously?

************
Before reading this fabulous thread and the wonderful analysis by all - I had a different opinion of Aredhel. I almost saw her as the "Poor Victim" but now my opinion has changed. Professor Tolkien was such a wonderful writer - in this chapter he encapsulated many great themes - including those of love, revenge, family responsibility and possible child abuse (somewhat made a wonderful comment - Eol did not name his son until he was 12 - now that was abusive - so what was he doing - calling him "Hey You !")

Yes, she symbolizes selfishness to me now. Destroyed the last hope of the Noldor but her niece Idril symbolizes some of the best aspects to be found in anybody - including wisdom...

Very sincerely, JudySmile



noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 11 2013, 2:32pm

Post #365 of 381 (3942 views)
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Flash fiction anyone? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 11 2013, 2:39pm

Post #366 of 381 (3937 views)
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interesting : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i guess that's the neat thing about learning of others' takes on a subject... one can have an opinion, but then someone else presents a thought with a viewpoint that one has not considered, but that really resonates. sometimes the opposite happens as well, and one thinks -- wow, i never in a million years would have thought about +that+.

re maeglin's name. yes, eol was +really+ remiss in (not) naming him, but he did have his mother-name (lomion, iirc). elves at birth are given a mother-name and a father-name, so he didn't at least have to answer to "hey-you-glin." also, re child abuse, a father threatening to chain his son? i have a feeling that was not idle rhetoric with eol.

aredhel is a rather complex character. much to admire, some that detracts, and then there are just "unexpected events."

yes, idril is an extremely admirable character: foresighted, brave, diplomatic, perceptive.

how is it that you perceive aredhel destroyed the last hope of the noldor? i'm getting the feeling from your statement that you believe she acted in some negative way towards maeglin. could you fill me in a little? : )


many thanks, and +great+ to hear your thoughts! : )


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 11 2013, 2:45pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 11 2013, 2:44pm

Post #367 of 381 (3940 views)
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clean up -- arrrrghhh [In reply to] Can't Post

 
(accidentally replied to the wrong post. corrected it, but don't want to delete this one in case someone's trying to reply to it -- don't want to create a bigger mess.)

cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 11 2013, 2:48pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 11 2013, 2:47pm

Post #368 of 381 (3934 views)
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(sorry, i originally replied to the wrong post with this) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i had just come across some info that indicated that same thing -- that glorfindel and ecthelion were aredhel's escort.

i certainly wish they had been retained. i think the sil seems more real when characters don't just pop up in one place, but many places in the story.

and, rather than it seem emasculating that they could not sway aredhel, i think it just illustrates that they tried to do their duty, and were in a tough spot, and misfortune happened. it makes them more interesting than if they are just seen as balrog-slaying super-heroes. they're human -- er -- elvish, after all.


cheers : )


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 11 2013, 2:52pm

Post #369 of 381 (3926 views)
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Hope of the Noldor [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Yes, she symbolizes selfishness to me now. Destroyed the last hope of the Noldor but her niece Idril symbolizes some of the best aspects to be found in anybody - including wisdom...

Nice juxtaposition there, Itnjmy. Idril produces the hope of Elves and Men by having Earendil, and not just being a birth mother, but a leader of the refugees from Gondolin's destruction, preserving their hope. Aredhel (albeit unwittingly) introduces the destruction of Gondolin by bringing her son home, and Gondolin was the last hope of the Noldor maintaining a realm against Morgoth, even if it was through secrecy and not military might. Turgon himself kept pursuing hope for the Noldor by sending mariners to Valinor to ask for help and forgiveness, which set in motion a long chain of events: Voronwe survives and returns to lead Tuor to Gondolin, Tuor weds Idril, and their son will save the world from Morgoth with his mission. Turgon can be thanked both genetically (for his grandson) and for setting things in motion. That's how I view the last hope of the Noldor, somewhat in spite of Tolkien, who positioned Maeglin as the last hope. That seems like hyperbole to me.

I agree with your point about Idril. Can you imagine her making the decisions that Aredhel did? I can't. Yet Idril is just as strong in character. Do you think Idril's a better leader than Aredhel would be if the latter were given a chance?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 11 2013, 2:55pm

Post #370 of 381 (3928 views)
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Don't worry [In reply to] Can't Post

I only spent 2 days crafting a BRILLIANT response, and now it's lost forever. It was my Silmaril, the like of which I can never create again. But don't feel guilty or anything. Blame it on the fate of Arda Marred. Plus I probably made some oaths in my youth that I shouldn't have, and now the chickens are coming home to roost. (As if the ostriches and ducks weren't bad enough.)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 11 2013, 3:30pm

Post #371 of 381 (3924 views)
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curiousg!! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i must let you know that i laughed a wonderful laugh reading your post. : ) and it gave me a broad smile, and i'm quite smiling on the inside as well. rereading it brings the same. : )

thank you for pouring your heart into such an illuminating response. we cannot hope to have its holy light shine upon us now, but at least we have the tainted (but still beautiful) light of your subcreative post. i will distill a bit of it into a phial, and use it to chase off carpenter ants.


thank you! : )


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 11 2013, 3:33pm

Post #372 of 381 (3933 views)
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hope of the noldor quitntumvirate [In reply to] Can't Post

 
it's still fuzzy, i think, from reading the chapter... compelling arguments could be made for all of these being the last hope of the noldor:

1. maeglin
2. idril
3. gondolin
4. idril's future child with the as-yet-unintroduced-tuor
5. feanor, the greatest elf who ever lived
6. ostriches



cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 11 2013, 3:33pm)


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Jun 11 2013, 6:04pm

Post #373 of 381 (3918 views)
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Awesome analysis - much better than my previous feeble attempts [In reply to] Can't Post


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Yes, she symbolizes selfishness to me now. Destroyed the last hope of the Noldor but her niece Idril symbolizes some of the best aspects to be found in anybody - including wisdom...

Nice juxtaposition there, Itnjmy. Idril produces the hope of Elves and Men by having Earendil, and not just being a birth mother, but a leader of the refugees from Gondolin's destruction, preserving their hope. Aredhel (albeit unwittingly) introduces the destruction of Gondolin by bringing her son home, and Gondolin was the last hope of the Noldor maintaining a realm against Morgoth, even if it was through secrecy and not military might. Turgon himself kept pursuing hope for the Noldor by sending mariners to Valinor to ask for help and forgiveness, which set in motion a long chain of events: Voronwe survives and returns to lead Tuor to Gondolin, Tuor weds Idril, and their son will save the world from Morgoth with his mission. Turgon can be thanked both genetically (for his grandson) and for setting things in motion. That's how I view the last hope of the Noldor, somewhat in spite of Tolkien, who positioned Maeglin as the last hope. That seems like hyperbole to me.

I agree with your point about Idril. Can you imagine her making the decisions that Aredhel did? I can't. Yet Idril is just as strong in character. Do you think Idril's a better leader than Aredhel would be if the latter were given a chance?

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