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Silmarilion Discussion: Chapter 16 -- "Of Maeglin"
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noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 1:47pm

Post #351 of 381 (4089 views)
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This made me wince as well as smile... [In reply to] Can't Post

Some people are completely oblivious to the role their own actions play in what happens to them. I can imagine Eol writing pretty much exactly your text in his letter to Auntie Arwen (see http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=609008#609008 )

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 1:48pm

Post #352 of 381 (4099 views)
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Hey, I was poster #350: do I get to lick the paddle? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 9 2013, 1:50pm

Post #353 of 381 (4087 views)
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ha! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
that evoked a sol from me ("smile out loud"). : )

yes, yes you do! : )

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 9 2013, 2:02pm

Post #354 of 381 (4081 views)
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in the same vein... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
this is a book i've begun to read. it's small, short, and uses examples of jokes to explain philosophy, and why we find the jokes funny...


plato and a platypus walk into a bar


thanks for the heads up re the game of thrones book, and the entire philosophy series there... i'm checking it out...


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 9 2013, 2:02pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 2:17pm

Post #355 of 381 (4081 views)
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Oh, those women, and alternate endings [In reply to] Can't Post

How come we're still talking about women in a thread that is clearly "Of Maeglin"? Isn't this how the poor lad got twisted, by having his needs neglected and expectations unmet? "No name for you, boy, not while we're debating your mama."

Does our debate rage on because Maeglin is clearly a bad guy, and Aredhel is on the good side? Though I can be critical of her, I think I'm explaining my thoughts about her rather than disliking her. I do dislike Maeglin. I don't like Balrogs, either. Any of them. And if I go on a Sunday morning random tangent, it's racist of me to dislike Balrogs, isn't it? Have I ever met any? No. Do I think they're all the same? Yes. Are my opinions entirely formed by others? Oh, my, I've gotten into a shameful spot.

Okay, back to women, or moral luck, in this case. I like your point a lot, Wiz, and it's fun to play with as an extension of what ifs. It's not about plot what ifs, but reader reaction what ifs. If Eowyn had died in her battle with the Witch-King, I wouldn't dislike her, but I'd probably conclude that it's her fault (loosely) for having a death wish that led her into a fight she was doomed to lose. If only she'd thought with a clearer head! I'd feel sorry for her, but not call her a hero, just self-destructive.

Good points on *ahem* The Lady Who Gave Birth To Maeglin who has no name. Several things could change in the story that would alter my perception of her. She could defy Turgon and ride happily to Feanor-son-land, discover Eol and wholly willingly marry him, then their marriage could turn sour, and she could grab her boy (who is Maeglin) and run back to Gondolin. That's all plausible given her personality. In fact, given how headstrong this nameless woman is, it might make more sense for her to make the first move on Eol in a rebellious act of marriage.

As far as consequences go, I don't blame her for the eventual fall of Gondolin, I blame Maeglin for that. But let's say the chapter was exactly the same in the early parts, where I find her immature, and Maeglin saved Gondolin. Then I'd think she was a ditzy girl, but she was worth it. I might even condescend to give her a name.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 9 2013, 2:42pm

Post #356 of 381 (4088 views)
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It might be a fun writing exercise... [In reply to] Can't Post

...to write the chapter in the LOTR historical novel style rather than the more-remote-from-the-action Silmarillion history style.

Do it different ways- without altering the canonical events, make different characters sympathetic or unsympathetic.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Jun 10 2013, 5:48pm

Post #357 of 381 (4066 views)
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Great analysis of Aredhel's treatment of her guards [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I find Aredhel's treatment of her guards to be deplorably self-centered. Royal guards who don't guard the royals get into trouble, and they were ordered to take her to Fingon (if they could). I can't imagine Turgon being pleased with them that they broke his orders, and they did so because they weren't going to let her wander off alone (though to give her a point, she traveled quite well on her own).

She chooses to travel through what is a very, very dangerous region, and they are honor-bound to stick with her, so she endangers their lives. Does she care? Then they are lost, she looks for them without success, and what does she do next? She goes off to party with her cousins! Does she think she should go back to Gondolin (or the SOF) and say, "I lost my guards. They might need help. Get a group together so we can find them."? No. I find her more immature than rebellious. There is the "cool" factor that she's willing to travel through a danger zone, but not that she endangers others and abandons them. A male character doing that would be just as obnoxious.

(Another chilly thing. White doesn't always seem sterile and chilly, but it somehow does with her. I don't find Galadriel or Gandalf chilly when they're in white. I don't know why.)

**************************************
GREAT analysis about Aredhel's treatment of her guards. Gosh this is an awesome thread !!!!Smile



CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 10 2013, 7:11pm

Post #358 of 381 (4056 views)
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Thanks for the kind words, Itnjmy! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 10 2013, 9:40pm

Post #359 of 381 (4065 views)
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thanks so much : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
thanks so much ltnjmy... it's so nice to have you here. : )


does this discussion change your mind in any way about aredhel? what did you think of her previously?


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 10 2013, 9:41pm

Post #360 of 381 (4055 views)
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this would [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...to write the chapter in the LOTR historical novel style rather than the more-remote-from-the-action Silmarillion history style.

Do it different ways- without altering the canonical events, make different characters sympathetic or unsympathetic.



this would +totally+ be incredibly neat. : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 11 2013, 3:22am

Post #361 of 381 (4053 views)
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Funny you mention that [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope this hasn't been mentioned already in the four billion posts in this thread (Wink), but Tolkien actually wrote this chapter with more immediate and fuller descriptions. Christopher tells in The War of the Jewels that he actually tweaked it to be more in the style of the rest of The Silmarillion.

Anyway, I just found it ironic that you would suggest that for this chapter when it's possibly the least remote in style as written by Tolkien.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 11 2013, 3:26am

Post #362 of 381 (4058 views)
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Aredhel's guards [In reply to] Can't Post

Again, I don't know if this has already been covered in the thread, but Tolkien had originally written that two of these guards were Glorfindel and Ecthelion. I think he removed their names because he felt the episode made them feel inept, but I'd say your description is probably more fitting - that Aredhel is too selfish and their losing her isn't really their fault.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 11 2013, 6:17am

Post #363 of 381 (4051 views)
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I think it frustrates because stylistically we're left with a half way house [In reply to] Can't Post

We see enough hints of the character motives to make this discussion possible, in a way that comes up less with the more chronicle-styled chapters. But we don't have the full novelists tool set deployed.

I confess a preference for stories over chronicles: perhaps I'm just reporting that.

Ps if anyone knows the proper critical terms for "novel style" versus "chronicle style" , I'd like to learn them.

"Novel style"? Sorry if I've just given you a Psy earworm!

I've got a character
Give her motives, make her clear....

Ohhhh, Chilly Lady
Opa Novel Style!

Etc. ad nauseum

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Jun 11 2013, 2:24pm

Post #364 of 381 (4054 views)
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Of Maeglin - Reply (That is Why this is One of the Greatest Chapters Written by Prof. Tolkien) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
thanks so much ltnjmy... it's so nice to have you here. : )


does this discussion change your mind in any way about aredhel? what did you think of her previously?

************
Before reading this fabulous thread and the wonderful analysis by all - I had a different opinion of Aredhel. I almost saw her as the "Poor Victim" but now my opinion has changed. Professor Tolkien was such a wonderful writer - in this chapter he encapsulated many great themes - including those of love, revenge, family responsibility and possible child abuse (somewhat made a wonderful comment - Eol did not name his son until he was 12 - now that was abusive - so what was he doing - calling him "Hey You !")

Yes, she symbolizes selfishness to me now. Destroyed the last hope of the Noldor but her niece Idril symbolizes some of the best aspects to be found in anybody - including wisdom...

Very sincerely, JudySmile



noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 11 2013, 2:32pm

Post #365 of 381 (4036 views)
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Flash fiction anyone? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 11 2013, 2:39pm

Post #366 of 381 (4031 views)
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interesting : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i guess that's the neat thing about learning of others' takes on a subject... one can have an opinion, but then someone else presents a thought with a viewpoint that one has not considered, but that really resonates. sometimes the opposite happens as well, and one thinks -- wow, i never in a million years would have thought about +that+.

re maeglin's name. yes, eol was +really+ remiss in (not) naming him, but he did have his mother-name (lomion, iirc). elves at birth are given a mother-name and a father-name, so he didn't at least have to answer to "hey-you-glin." also, re child abuse, a father threatening to chain his son? i have a feeling that was not idle rhetoric with eol.

aredhel is a rather complex character. much to admire, some that detracts, and then there are just "unexpected events."

yes, idril is an extremely admirable character: foresighted, brave, diplomatic, perceptive.

how is it that you perceive aredhel destroyed the last hope of the noldor? i'm getting the feeling from your statement that you believe she acted in some negative way towards maeglin. could you fill me in a little? : )


many thanks, and +great+ to hear your thoughts! : )


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 11 2013, 2:45pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 11 2013, 2:44pm

Post #367 of 381 (4034 views)
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clean up -- arrrrghhh [In reply to] Can't Post

 
(accidentally replied to the wrong post. corrected it, but don't want to delete this one in case someone's trying to reply to it -- don't want to create a bigger mess.)

cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 11 2013, 2:48pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 11 2013, 2:47pm

Post #368 of 381 (4028 views)
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(sorry, i originally replied to the wrong post with this) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i had just come across some info that indicated that same thing -- that glorfindel and ecthelion were aredhel's escort.

i certainly wish they had been retained. i think the sil seems more real when characters don't just pop up in one place, but many places in the story.

and, rather than it seem emasculating that they could not sway aredhel, i think it just illustrates that they tried to do their duty, and were in a tough spot, and misfortune happened. it makes them more interesting than if they are just seen as balrog-slaying super-heroes. they're human -- er -- elvish, after all.


cheers : )


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 11 2013, 2:52pm

Post #369 of 381 (4020 views)
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Hope of the Noldor [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Yes, she symbolizes selfishness to me now. Destroyed the last hope of the Noldor but her niece Idril symbolizes some of the best aspects to be found in anybody - including wisdom...

Nice juxtaposition there, Itnjmy. Idril produces the hope of Elves and Men by having Earendil, and not just being a birth mother, but a leader of the refugees from Gondolin's destruction, preserving their hope. Aredhel (albeit unwittingly) introduces the destruction of Gondolin by bringing her son home, and Gondolin was the last hope of the Noldor maintaining a realm against Morgoth, even if it was through secrecy and not military might. Turgon himself kept pursuing hope for the Noldor by sending mariners to Valinor to ask for help and forgiveness, which set in motion a long chain of events: Voronwe survives and returns to lead Tuor to Gondolin, Tuor weds Idril, and their son will save the world from Morgoth with his mission. Turgon can be thanked both genetically (for his grandson) and for setting things in motion. That's how I view the last hope of the Noldor, somewhat in spite of Tolkien, who positioned Maeglin as the last hope. That seems like hyperbole to me.

I agree with your point about Idril. Can you imagine her making the decisions that Aredhel did? I can't. Yet Idril is just as strong in character. Do you think Idril's a better leader than Aredhel would be if the latter were given a chance?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 11 2013, 2:55pm

Post #370 of 381 (4022 views)
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Don't worry [In reply to] Can't Post

I only spent 2 days crafting a BRILLIANT response, and now it's lost forever. It was my Silmaril, the like of which I can never create again. But don't feel guilty or anything. Blame it on the fate of Arda Marred. Plus I probably made some oaths in my youth that I shouldn't have, and now the chickens are coming home to roost. (As if the ostriches and ducks weren't bad enough.)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 11 2013, 3:30pm

Post #371 of 381 (4018 views)
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curiousg!! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i must let you know that i laughed a wonderful laugh reading your post. : ) and it gave me a broad smile, and i'm quite smiling on the inside as well. rereading it brings the same. : )

thank you for pouring your heart into such an illuminating response. we cannot hope to have its holy light shine upon us now, but at least we have the tainted (but still beautiful) light of your subcreative post. i will distill a bit of it into a phial, and use it to chase off carpenter ants.


thank you! : )


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 11 2013, 3:33pm

Post #372 of 381 (4027 views)
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hope of the noldor quitntumvirate [In reply to] Can't Post

 
it's still fuzzy, i think, from reading the chapter... compelling arguments could be made for all of these being the last hope of the noldor:

1. maeglin
2. idril
3. gondolin
4. idril's future child with the as-yet-unintroduced-tuor
5. feanor, the greatest elf who ever lived
6. ostriches



cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 11 2013, 3:33pm)


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Jun 11 2013, 6:04pm

Post #373 of 381 (4012 views)
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Awesome analysis - much better than my previous feeble attempts [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
Yes, she symbolizes selfishness to me now. Destroyed the last hope of the Noldor but her niece Idril symbolizes some of the best aspects to be found in anybody - including wisdom...

Nice juxtaposition there, Itnjmy. Idril produces the hope of Elves and Men by having Earendil, and not just being a birth mother, but a leader of the refugees from Gondolin's destruction, preserving their hope. Aredhel (albeit unwittingly) introduces the destruction of Gondolin by bringing her son home, and Gondolin was the last hope of the Noldor maintaining a realm against Morgoth, even if it was through secrecy and not military might. Turgon himself kept pursuing hope for the Noldor by sending mariners to Valinor to ask for help and forgiveness, which set in motion a long chain of events: Voronwe survives and returns to lead Tuor to Gondolin, Tuor weds Idril, and their son will save the world from Morgoth with his mission. Turgon can be thanked both genetically (for his grandson) and for setting things in motion. That's how I view the last hope of the Noldor, somewhat in spite of Tolkien, who positioned Maeglin as the last hope. That seems like hyperbole to me.

I agree with your point about Idril. Can you imagine her making the decisions that Aredhel did? I can't. Yet Idril is just as strong in character. Do you think Idril's a better leader than Aredhel would be if the latter were given a chance?

*******************
That is why I love this thread - the chapter - and all of the themes that Professor Tolkien wove into this small but important part of his mythos. Originally, I saw Aredhel as "poor creature," "poor waif" - she was treated badly by Eol. But after reading the excellent postings and analysis by others - my opinion has definitely changed. I think that Prof. Tolkien tried to show her as the irresponsible Elf woman and compared her later to her much wiser niece Idril. Aredhel only thought of herself - she wanted to see the SOF - she did not take the cautious advice of her brother or her guards who attempted to dissuade her from her dangerous journey. Idril, on the other hand, read her cousin Maeglin from the start but didn't let on to him that she correctly evaluated his character/nature. This poor analysis is very weak compared to the other fine previous postings that I have read - but I have enjoyed this thread a great deal and everyone on this website. That is why I guess we all get a little heated (at the Hobbit movie board) with differences of opinion - because we all so love Professor Tolkien's writings. . . In fact, I am still amazed and gratified that so much has been transformed into cinema - something that I never would have imagined possible 20 years ago.

Sincerely, ltnjmySmile



Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 13 2013, 2:27pm

Post #374 of 381 (3996 views)
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I like it a lot [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it reads a lot like The Children of Hurin does. While it is that halfway point between the Silmarillion annal-like entries and more novelized books, I think it works great. Would I love to have the whole story of Maeglin told in the length of LOTR? Sure, that would be awesome! But as it is, I'm happy with what we have. Smile

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 13 2013, 2:53pm

Post #375 of 381 (3995 views)
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Glorfindel & Ecthelion [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have liked for them to have been retained as well. Having different characters pop up here and there does make me more engaged with them, rather than just seeing them once or whatever.

Also, seeing any more of Glorfindel is always welcome. I just love how he's like a constant minor character in Silm and LOTR.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel



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