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Silmarilion Discussion: Chapter 16 -- "Of Maeglin"
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telain
Rohan

Jun 7 2013, 6:05pm

Post #301 of 381 (4083 views)
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number 300!? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry. Had to.

And I like where you are going with Aredhel -- the cooping was a problem, therefore it was only a matter of time with Eol that she would need to escape...


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 6:09pm

Post #302 of 381 (4078 views)
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agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

 
and the twistedness of bonding yourself with someone who, despite all the appearance as a lover of freedom, was (or developed into being) very controlling and restrictive.

i'm surprised she didn't bolt sooner --- he made her give up moving around by daylight. for someone used to the light of the trees, and then of the sun, that must have been strange. aredhel was not one of those elves that was born and lived all her light in twilight, before the sun came, like the sindar and the rest.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 6:46pm

Post #303 of 381 (4071 views)
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aredhel and the chill [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i wonder if we would view aredhel with less chill if she were a male elf.

as an experiment, let's imagine fingolfin had only sons. fingon, turgon, and argon -- whoops --- that one's already taken.... let's call the fourth son ningon. he is "fearless and hardy" and ever-wandering over plains, valleys, and mountains. he is strong-willed, and does what he likes. ningon is always dressed in white, and is fond of hunting. he goes to gondolin with his brother, turgon, but has a bit of a disagreement, because he wants to roam and explore this middle-earth.



Ningon Ar-Rochallor, the White Rider of the Noldor, son of Fingolfin, dwelt in Nevrast with Turgon, his brother, and he went with him to the hidden kingdom. But he wearied of the guarded city of Gondolin, desiring ever the more longer to ride in the wide lands and walk in the forests, as had been his wont in Valinor; and when two hundred years had passed since Gondolin was full-wrought, he spoke to Turgon, and asked leave to depart. Turgon was loath to grant this, and long he denied his brother, but at last Turgon yielded, saying: "Go then, if you will, though it is against my wisdom, and I forebode that ill will come of it, both to you and to me. But you shall go only to seek Fingon, our brother, and those I send with you shall return to Gondolin as swiftly as they may."

But Ningon said: "I am your brother and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me. And if you begrudge me an escort, I will go alone."

Then Turgon answered: "I grudge you nothing that I have. Yet I desire that none shall dwell beyond my walls who know the way hither; and if I trust you, my brother, others I trust less to keep guards on their tongues."

And Turgon appointed three lords of his household to ride with Ningon, and he bade them lead Ningon to Fingon in Hithlum, if they might prevail upon him. "And be wary," Turgon said, " for though Morgoth be yet hemmed in the North, there are many perils in Middle-earth of which my brother knows nothing." Then Ningon departed from Gondolin, and Turgon's heart was heavy at his going.

But when Ningon came to the Ford of Brithlach in the River Sirion, he said to his companions: "Turn now south and not north, for I will not ride to Hithlum; my heart desires rather to find the sons of Feanor, my friends of old." And since Ningon could not be dissuaded, they turned south as he commanded, and sought admittance into Doriath.





to me, ningon seems a whole lot less chilly than aredhel. he seems strong-willed, but adventurous and admirable, even if more thoughtfulness might have also been useful. he seems a brave and hardy adventurer and explorer, and his visual presence, a rider clad always in white, now seems like a warm and inspiring white.

to me, anyway. and all i did was flip the gender. i'm reevaluating aredhel.

did anyone else have a similar experience?



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 7 2013, 6:47pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 8:57pm

Post #304 of 381 (4069 views)
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Well, for me, the chill is still there. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not about gender to me. He still seems self-centered and not very interested in how he treats other people.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 9:07pm

Post #305 of 381 (4063 views)
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fair enough -- [In reply to] Can't Post

 
: )

but wait until he throws himself in front of eolwen's javelin, to save his daughter, maegliniel.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


imin
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 10:31pm

Post #306 of 381 (4062 views)
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Same for me [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes (a lot of the time) gender doesn't matter.

'What's the matter with you?' - J.R.R. Tolkien


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 10:49pm

Post #307 of 381 (4045 views)
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Masterfully re-written... [In reply to] Can't Post

I've read it a few times, and mulled. But I confess, that willfulness (as chilliness) still comes through - it the risk to Gondolin to satisfy the restlessness that comes through. However, I completely appreciate your potential point !!!!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Jun 7 2013, 10:51pm)


telain
Rohan

Jun 7 2013, 10:50pm

Post #308 of 381 (4053 views)
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me, too [In reply to] Can't Post

I know I wouldn't have stayed around that long...but then I probably wouldn't have done half the things she did, either.

And great point about not being an elf of the twilight -- do you suppose that is one of the reasons she did stay so long? It was different? Perhaps she was bored of all that sunlight and trees, and freedom?

She certainly is an interesting character. And I don't think I am chilly toward her (as imin, below, or above) has thrown out there. And an interesting experiment btw!

Maybe she is a bit more like Feanor in spirit, but not in craft. And maybe that's why she feels such kinship with SoF -- those free-spirited (self-centred), passionate (impulsive) souls...


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 8:52am

Post #309 of 381 (4052 views)
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Not at the chilly bit yet. [In reply to] Can't Post

Ningon has to meet the dark elf female who is Eóls equivalent (youll beable to name her, i dont have your linguistic skill) She uses some underhand trick to render him "not unwilling". Or at least to leave us wondering whether the situation has been not unmaniplulated.

They have a child.

The chills set in for me when she won't let Ningon and Junior leave.

What does the over possessive she elf do though: tracking Ningon with the intent to recapture or murder him? That shell doesn't seem to fit in my head-cannon...

Not sure why a young single she elf abroad seems ok to me, but a vengeful mother not.

By the way, excellent ventriloquism: maybe we should get you to fix up some other bits of the tale...

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 12:34pm

Post #310 of 381 (4035 views)
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ah, but it's [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Ningon has to meet the dark elf female who is Eóls equivalent (youll beable to name her, i dont have your linguistic skill) She uses some underhand trick to render him "not unwilling". Or at least to leave us wondering whether the situation has been not unmaniplulated.

They have a child.

The chills set in for me when she won't let Ningon and Junior leave.

What does the over possessive she elf do though: tracking Ningon with the intent to recapture or murder him? That shell doesn't seem to fit in my head-cannon...

Not sure why a young single she elf abroad seems ok to me, but a vengeful mother not.

By the way, excellent ventriloquism: maybe we should get you to fix up some other bits of the tale...



ah, but it's not eol of whom folks (me, brethil, curiousg) have stated they've always felt a it of a chilly personality....but aredhel.


so, eventually ningon will meet up with eolwen, who has completely manufactured the meeting by enchanted arts (perhaps an enchantrix on the level of luthien), and it is eolwen who will apply the rules (no walking about by day, etc.).

i think doing the gender flip has softened up aredhel for me a bit... 'tho it is indeed inescapable that she's breaking one of the safety rules.

i also wonder about gondolin, the migration, and the rules..... as has been mentioned earlier in the previous chapter discussion, how exactly did they achieve this migration. did everyone willingly go? were some given an option to depart for other kingdoms before the emigrated, even if they weren't informed of the secret city itself?

i'm also assuming, whatever was the case for the regular nevrast elf, aredhel was probably in on the king's counsel, meaning, turgon probably discussed with aredhel the whole secret city at some point before the emigration.

i wonder... .did he let her know beforehand that, once inside, she would not be allowed to leave? did he lay out the rules beforehand, so she might have had the choice to go live with her other brother, fingon, instead?


ha! : ) thanks for the kind words about the ventriloquism. it's sort of a neat experiment, that can be reconstituted wherever we like.

a female feanor! feanorwen!
feanorwen has seven daughters!

a female fingolfin! fingolfiniel!

elrosiel and elrondwen are twins. elrosiel goes on to found an entire queendom.


instead of the house of finwe having 20 male descendants and only 4 (!) female descendants (or 7, if you count finwe's missing daughters with indis), we have 20 female characters and 4 (or 7) male ones....

this is, btw, an example of gender imbalance with tolkien (whom i love!). i'm often like... +where are the females+?!!!! (the wives of feanor, fingolfin, curufin, fingon, turgon, orodreth are not even listed on the sil family tree -- 'tho perhaps we can lay that at the feet of christopher... not sure).

i love the idea of gender flipping the entire house of finwe.... how much in love with tolkien would everyone be if they had to read about the lives of 20 female characters and only 4 (or 7) male ones (yes, i know we have luthien, etc., but you see my point, i think).



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 8 2013, 12:40pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 1:50pm

Post #311 of 381 (4036 views)
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You may call me "Mr. point"...if I ask about Air-hed-rel [In reply to] Can't Post

You may call me "Mr. point" (if I "miss da point" many more times).

OK, so we are seeing Aredhel as "chilly" as in self-centered? I must say I was seeing her rather as Air-head-rel - willfully doing what she wants to do, whether or not prohibitions placed on her say not to, and whether those bans are all that reasonable. Removing the gender question, do we have a theme about "when is it reasonable to break the rules"?:

  1. Person X pleads for exception to a general rule and is granted it
  2. X now breaks conditions upon which exception was granted - was being deceitful all along, perhaps - this endangers X and others
  3. X gets married, and this once again leads to a situation, a larger-stakes one this time, where X wants to break the Rules (its harder to understand the reasoning behind the rules this time, and the authorities are not being accommodating this time about granting exceptions)
  4. X breaks the rules anyway, and disaster follows - results in death of X

If that's the theme, it's executed in an unexpected way. (The "expected way" form me would be that Air-head-rel knows best, leaves Gondolin, but is pursued home by evil forces and comes very close to betraying her whole family before a bit of peril and then things move to a happy ending. Oh, but that's pretty much the plot of Disney's Little Mermaid Aeriel. The names are even similar. FrownTongueUnsure Pirate - we don't have a "throwing up" emoticon.)

Was that, *puff, pant: catching up intellectually* why you tried substituting Air-head-rel for Ningon - avoid issues such as one gender dominating another; whether it's OK for the girls to go out on errantry?

I see Ningon as the kind of character who is popular in a lot of fiction. Brilliant young rebellions fella - does the opposite to what those boring ole stodgy grownups want, but it all works out well. The Tom Cruise character in Top Gun, perhaps, or Captain Kirk, or those many detectives who are unconventional enough to be made to turn in their badges nearly every show, before going on brilliantly to solve the case.

I Did enjoy Ningon, &was inspired to try the tale of Éower, White Lord of Rohan (where it seemed to fit appropriately, on another of our gender-role-based threads this week.)

Am I still Mr. Point?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 2:58pm

Post #312 of 381 (4025 views)
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heya : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 


In Reply To
1. Person X pleads for exception to a general rule and is granted it
2. X now breaks conditions upon which exception was granted - was being deceitful all along, perhaps - this endangers X and others
3. X gets married, and this once again leads to a situation, a larger-stakes one this time, where X wants to break the Rules (its harder to understand the reasoning behind the rules this time, and the authorities are not being accommodating this time about granting exceptions)
4. X breaks the rules anyway, and disaster follows - results in death of X




i'm not sure #2 is applicable to aredhel... she flat-out told turgon at the beginning that she would go where her mood took her, if she felt like it. so i think turgon hoped she would go to fingon, but suspected she might seek the sons of feanor. so, there was no deception or rule-breaking on that point.

traditionally, when females break the rules something bad seems to happen, but males breaking the rules is seen as a sign of laudable independence, and if they happen to break some west farthing crockery along the way, what does it matter? i think that's slowly changing in the storytelling we see across the media of our culture. the u.s., in particular, +loves+ the rebel archetype, the individual.... so a lot of the recent "girl power" and appearance of strong females owes a lot to the united states' love of people who do it their own way (and feminism is certainly at play here as well), and the u.s. is more wiling to have that independent spirit be female than a lot of other cultures, because it's so in love with the archetype.

i do see aredhel as a bit heedless and self-centered (can't speak for anyone else). part of my assessment of her orbits the question of whether she "knew the rules" before going to gondolin. if she had a (knowing) choice to go live with fingon, rather than stay cooped up with turgon (albeit beautifully). and she had a huge (+huge+) area in which to roam around, in and around gondolin, but if there's a "do not cross" sign, for the adventurous or contrarian or bucker of authority (aredhel, the numenorians), this probably acts like catnip to a peripatetic feline. there was no way aredhel was going to stay in gondolin, as long as there was a fence around it. and she wouldn't have fared any better in doriath.

also, even if she knew the rules, i don't know if it was all that awful to ask to leave. i think the bad part was going back, which, while understandable, in her particular scenario (knowing eol might be hot on their elven heels) was a bad, risky idea. why not hang out with one of the sons of feanor for a while (as has been said earlier)? surely, her friends and cousins would have +loved+ to protect her against eol (who, btw -- was talking with curufin about aredhel's whereabouts while probably having the poisoned javelin on his person at that moment --- urghhh).




In Reply To
If that's the theme, it's executed in an unexpected way. (The "expected way" form me would be that Air-head-rel knows best, leaves Gondolin, but is pursued home by evil forces and comes very close to betraying her whole family before a bit of peril and then things move to a happy ending. Oh, but that's pretty much the plot of Disney's Little Mermaid Aeriel. The names are even similar. - we don't have a "throwing up" emoticon.)

Was that, *puff, pant: catching up intellectually* why you tried substituting Air-head-rel for Ningon - avoid issues such as one gender dominating another; whether it's OK for the girls to go out on errantry?





i switched the gender to see if we could view this individual's actions in a new light; to see if our vision of aredhel was clouded (or not) by what we expect of females. do we view adventurous females more negatively? females who venture out on their own more negatively? females who will not be caged? females who are rebellious? i think we do, a bit. certainly historically so.

also, i think if aredhel just liked a different color, she might seem (a little) less chilly. something like, "the golden lady of the noldor." of, if galadriel didn't like that, the "rose of the noldor," if pink was her favorite color.




In Reply To
I see Ningon as the kind of character who is popular in a lot of fiction. Brilliant young rebellions fella - does the opposite to what those boring ole stodgy grownups want, but it all works out well. The Tom Cruise character in Top Gun, perhaps, or Captain Kirk, or those many detectives who are unconventional enough to be made to turn in their badges nearly every show, before going on brilliantly to solve the case.





yes! me too. an adventurous sort who can sometimes be a blockhead or a hothead, but we look up to them anyway. excellent analysis! : )

i wonder how we all would have reacted if feanor were female, and the rest stayed the same? i don't think there'd be as much of a feanorwen fan club, as there is a feanor one.


cheers, and thanks so much for the great post. : ) (and yes, i saw your gender-bending with eowyn... you are always an enjoyable rascal. : ) )


cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Escapist
Gondor


Jun 8 2013, 3:14pm

Post #313 of 381 (4016 views)
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You make some insightful points. [In reply to] Can't Post

I keep going back to the character of Eowyin. Tolkien did such a great job with her story because she bucked the traditions, was met with the classic resistance that comes with that for women (call it fair or not), and overcame it.

It is far more realistic to show that such "breaking of the rules" gets met with resistance to be overcome - than to trivialize the struggles so many women face by leaving that part of it out or pretending it doesn't happen. All it takes is a tiny little peanut gallery of folks with the opinion that women don't belong here-or-there doing this-or-that to create an obstacle to overcome. Those people always find a way to exist.

And furthermore, I do think that men who buck the system get accepted when those men are in positions of authority and leadership by some individuals who idolize and follow them (often to ruin). But they also get resistance that often amounts to jail-time. I look at the example of Feanor - major favorite character for some, majorly hated by others - and plenty of consequences for his actions.

Bucking the social order always comes at a price - unless you are the lord (either officially or de-facto) of that order.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 3:18pm

Post #314 of 381 (4030 views)
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In the interests of gender balance, you may also call me Ms daPointe... [In reply to] Can't Post

…who I imagine as a formidable ballet teacher.

Glad I'm mostly keeping up.


If this thread exceeds 500 posts we have to buy a new server, you know.
Nah, I just made that up.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 3:24pm

Post #315 of 381 (4077 views)
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nice to see you : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
nice to see you, escapist. : )

eowyn is such an intriguing example. historically, in the cultures tolkien drew from, there was more room for female warriors. tolkien's natural feeling that the genders were equal (but different) can be seen all throughout his writing, but probably can be seen best in the examples of eowyn and galadriel. tolkien was ahead of his time in +so+ many ways (even, it seems, of more advanced thinking in some ways than christopher -- if we are to judge christopher only by what he excised out of the silmarillion regarding female characters).

i'm grateful to have such a spirited character as aredhel at all. and it's not like her choices, soley hers, doom gondolin. so this is not a cautionary tale of females needing to stay in the castle.

i still do think feanor, if tolkien had made the character female, would not have the same fan base that exists now. not saying the female feanor would be excoriated by all, but there would be a sharp decline in popularity, and a +lot+ more calumny.

and so agreed re all that females have to endure to buck the system, make progress, etc.

cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 3:25pm

Post #316 of 381 (4017 views)
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lol! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
[nowime]

If this thread exceeds 500 posts we have to buy a new server, you know.

[/nowime]


lol!!!


btw, i keep on thinking of your new incarnation as "mr. pointy," which would make you buffy's stake.


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 4:08pm

Post #317 of 381 (4025 views)
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Mr Pointy? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's the fake elf/ Vulcan ears

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 4:29pm

Post #318 of 381 (4018 views)
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One chilly thing about Aredhel and her guards [In reply to] Can't Post

I find Aredhel's treatment of her guards to be deplorably self-centered. Royal guards who don't guard the royals get into trouble, and they were ordered to take her to Fingon (if they could). I can't imagine Turgon being pleased with them that they broke his orders, and they did so because they weren't going to let her wander off alone (though to give her a point, she traveled quite well on her own).

She chooses to travel through what is a very, very dangerous region, and they are honor-bound to stick with her, so she endangers their lives. Does she care? Then they are lost, she looks for them without success, and what does she do next? She goes off to party with her cousins! Does she think she should go back to Gondolin (or the SOF) and say, "I lost my guards. They might need help. Get a group together so we can find them."? No. I find her more immature than rebellious. There is the "cool" factor that she's willing to travel through a danger zone, but not that she endangers others and abandons them. A male character doing that would be just as obnoxious.

(Another chilly thing. White doesn't always seem sterile and chilly, but it somehow does with her. I don't find Galadriel or Gandalf chilly when they're in white. I don't know why.)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 4:43pm

Post #319 of 381 (4013 views)
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from [In reply to] Can't Post

 
...buffy the vampire slayer (the series). buffy called her stake(s), "mr. pointy."

cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 4:50pm

Post #320 of 381 (4010 views)
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agreed, agreed, agreed! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
but with some amendments.

aredhel had already told turgon that, if the mood struck her, she would go someplace else, other than to fingon. so i think turgon had that in mind when he was ordering the escort to convey her to fingon "if they could."

also, i just get the vibe that aredhel's not calling out a search party for her guards hen she meets up with her cousin(s) is more tolkien overlooking that detail, and it winds up being a chargeable offense for aredhel. (shrug) just my take. he does provide a lot of detail, but every author is surprised with what the readers can come up with. nevertheless, she did not take that action, and that was +deplorable+.

my emerging picture of aredhel, with all of this discussion... more points to her for bravery and skill and independence. more points detracted for lack of empathy and poor choices.

this is a character, because of these conflicts, that i would +love+ to see on the screen by a +good+ actor. i imagine the character would become +so+ much more complex than she is here (not that she's cardboard, in her present incarnation).

interesting about gandalf and galadriel in white. i would echo those sentiments. what color are your robes, randalf?




cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 4:50pm

Post #321 of 381 (4003 views)
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Ah. Haven't seen much Buffy. Also thinking "Misty Point" sound like a good locale for gothic adventures // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 4:55pm

Post #322 of 381 (4005 views)
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-funny - [In reply to] Can't Post

 
when i read "misty point," i thought of a melodramatically named heroine in a romance novel. you know, the one who is a spitfire, and ravishingly beautiful (but doesn't know it) and is a tomboy -- who captures the attention of the corsair-knight-highwayman who is catnip to the ladies but can never be in one place or with one woman too long ---- until --- he meets +her+.

lol!

(i'm cracking myself up. admittedly, not a hard thing to do...)


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 5:09pm

Post #323 of 381 (4004 views)
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misty point [In reply to] Can't Post

 
misty point, the gray lady of the elves, lived with her brother, king rebyll in the hidden city of stonedoom.

lady misty was a free spirit, and loved to ride and shoot and explore. she could hunt and fight as well as any male elf, and all men who met her fell hopelessly in love with her. but she was totally unaware of her beauty, because, growing up, she was not the prettiest of elves, and was considered the ugly duckling. now, she was a beautiful, white swan.

one day, lady misty became restless, and couldn't stay in stonedoom any longer. as a courtesy, she asked her brother, rebyll, for leave to depart. he was wounded that she would want to leave, but he could refuse his beautiful, untamed sister nothing.

so, she ventured forth, with a guard of honor -- which lady misty did not need, because she could track her way in the wilderness better than any other elf in the kingdom -- but they fell far behind, because she had more stamina and she always wanted to go one step further. eventually, they lost her, and she went on for a while, not knowing they were separated.

then, suddenly a confusing twilight occurred, and she lost her way. she knew it had to be enchantment, because under normal circumstances, she would +never+ get lost. and she soon discovered why. a dark elf, who had a rebellious and independent spirit like her own, had seen her from afar and had fallen in love with her, like so many others.

he was tall, and dark, and so handsome. he took lady misty's breath away. he lived alone, but decided to put away his solitude to be with her. together they explored the country around their castle at night. eventually, they had a son, who was the heir to his uncle rebyll's kingdom as well as incredibly talented in speaking, making swords and weapons, and even reading minds.



i sincerely hope that someone by now has lost their lembas.

if someone has not lost their lembas, i have not done my job.



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 8 2013, 5:12pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 5:10pm

Post #324 of 381 (4005 views)
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Is Éowyn a good compare/contrast [In reply to] Can't Post

Also doesn't do what she's supposed to: Setting out as part of Théodens host is pretty selfish. She thinks she's been left to guard the home front because she's not seen as good enough for anything else: I've wondered whether instead Théoden knows he needs a steady officer there, and that she alone would be able to hold it together to give a defeated Rohirrim somewhere to regroup.

Éowyn story also climaxes in a Dramatic self-sacrificing act (though she survives fighting the Witch King, as opposed to taking the poisoned spear and dying).

We are closer in to the action & can see what's driving Éowyn: if her story was told i the far-off style of the Sil. Maybe we'd think Éowyn chilly too?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 8 2013, 5:19pm

Post #325 of 381 (4005 views)
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Then they invent a new high performance aircraft, the Spitfire, and fly away? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

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