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Silmarilion Discussion: Chapter 16 -- "Of Maeglin"
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Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 7:59pm

Post #251 of 381 (4170 views)
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+somebody's+ [In reply to] Can't Post

 
[nowimė]
NIMG? Still guessing: Newts In Manwė's G-string? (Valar office party gets excessive) ?
[/nowimė]


+somebody's+ got a doom of mandos coming to him...


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Jun 6 2013, 8:04pm

Post #252 of 381 (4174 views)
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I LOVED THIS ! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That little tramp Aredhel trespasses in Eol's nice, happy forest solitude, and when our shy boy gives her the slightest bit of flirtation, she gets all "not wholly unwilling" on him and winds up pregnant, saddling him with a brat. The schemer! He does the best he can to support them, and what thanks does he get? She splits with the kid without so much as a goodbye note, and she probably stole the silverware too. Nobly determined to make amends and save their marriage, he follows her through great adversity, hoping to redeem himself in her eyes, only to get killed by her savage family. Eol is the victim here, it's that White Lady's fault!!



The above is GREAT. I loved it. Awesome. "She splits without so much as a goodbye note" - Great !!!!!Wink


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 8:08pm

Post #253 of 381 (4167 views)
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no, Nowimė's In Mandos' Good-books - we managed to put the blame for the newts on Yavanna.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 8:15pm

Post #254 of 381 (4156 views)
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Respecting one, of course! :D // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 8:31pm

Post #255 of 381 (4156 views)
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more questions for you guys... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
1. what did eol think of the +moon+? it also arrived with the noldor.

2. does maeglin look to turgon as a father-figure? or just an uncle? or just a means to power?

3. is maeglin conflicted in any way about turgon? turgon killed his dad... but he hated his dad... but not totally... but....

4. is turgon conflicted about maeglin? he's his sister-son, but he's also the son of the "lesser elf" who killed his beloved sister -- one day after they were reunited!!


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 6 2013, 8:32pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 8:50pm

Post #256 of 381 (4145 views)
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Some quick answers [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1. what did eol think of the +moon+? it also arrived with the noldor.
Noldor Introduced Moon! Grrrr!

2. does maeglin look to turgon as a father-figure? or just an uncle? or just a means to power?

3. is maeglin conflicted in any way about turgon? turgon killed his dad... but he hated his dad... but not totally... but....

4. is turgon conflicted about maeglin? he's his sister-son, but he's also the son of the "lesser elf" who killed his beloved sister -- one day after they were reunited!!

I think it's a challenging set-up: different imperatives would make Maeglin want to respect his uncle and be revenged upon him. And the suspicion that that's how it is is surely going to cross Turgon's mind often enough. Difficult for these wretched cycles to stop.

cheers --

.


Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 9:18pm

Post #257 of 381 (4148 views)
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It was originally "Nutella in Manwė's G-string", but I had promised not to spread that rumour....// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jun 6 2013, 9:20pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 9:40pm

Post #258 of 381 (4133 views)
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you know [In reply to] Can't Post

 
you could actually be an example of arda corrupted....


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 9:57pm

Post #259 of 381 (4154 views)
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Turgon and Maeglin [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1. what did eol think of the +moon+? it also arrived with the noldor. It might be right up his alley - I would guess its the sun that he dislikes; the moon might just make it easier to spot wandering pretty girls...

2. does maeglin look to turgon as a father-figure? or just an uncle? or just a means to power? POWER and IDRIL. Hands down.

3. is maeglin conflicted in any way about turgon? turgon killed his dad... but he hated his dad... but not totally... but.... I don't think he is conflicted at all. I think that's why the point of the silence was so clear.

4. is turgon conflicted about maeglin? he's his sister-son, but he's also the son of the "lesser elf" who killed his beloved sister -- one day after they were reunited!! Tolkien seems to have a special place for sister-sons: Théoden and Eomer; Thorin and Fili and Kili...there are more. I don't think Turgon blames Maeglin at all; maybe in a way he opens his heart to Maeglin in a sense that perhaps Ardehel never seemed privy too, being proud and not too affectionate it seems. The son he never had...?


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 10:02pm

Post #260 of 381 (4155 views)
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DO NOT get me started on the uses of Nutella.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Really, Furuncurnir!!!!!! Wink Let's not have Telpemairo's wondrous thread all shut down....! (Spread the rumor....very sweetly done...)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 12:37am

Post #261 of 381 (4142 views)
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so many more interesting details [In reply to] Can't Post

 
.... one thing springs to mind.... if celegorm and curufinwe see aredhel in the forest, because they are keeping a watch on eol, why don't they announce themselves to her? they are all friends and are still on good terms (she had just stayed with them).

thank you so much, brethil tengwadil, for unearthing all of this. the storylines of aredhel, eol, and maeglin make +so much more sense now+.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 12:44am

Post #262 of 381 (4134 views)
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mostly in agreement.. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i'm mostly in agreement here, brethil... except i think it very plausible that father-love starved maeglin might very much look to turgon as a father-figure. i think that would be problematic in many ways, and would exacerbate any mixed feelings about having his father killed.

you can honestly hate a parent, an abusive horrible, monstrous parent, and be glad they're dead and +still+ be angry at the one who killed him.

and, yes, i very consciously used the phrase "sister-son," knowing that tolkien had something of a soft-spot for this sort of relationship (which he pulled in part from the cultures he studied; it was their term an often this was a special relationship -- i +think+ i read that in one of the letters).

i think turgon would have welcomed maeglin openly and joyfully. maeglin is now all that remains of his beloved sister. and, of course, the having no son and heir thing.

aredhel doesn't strike me as a very warm person, but that could totally not be the case. one can have a high-handed attitude and be very loving and thoughtful. i wish we had more details about her personality and actions. she makes a very interesting foil for galadriel, her genealogical contemporary.


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 12:50am

Post #263 of 381 (4143 views)
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so glad [In reply to] Can't Post

 
so glad you're enjoying all the silliness, ltnjmy. : )

do you have any thoughts on maeglin, aredhel, or eol? or on whether nowime is going to be banned from valinor, after that manwe/g-string joke?

(and yes, our curiousg is an extremely humorous gentleman...)


cheers : )

.

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 1:26am

Post #264 of 381 (4138 views)
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I stick up for the underdog. Glad you liked it. :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 1:27am

Post #265 of 381 (4128 views)
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Yeah, that doesn't make sense [In reply to] Can't Post

it's not like the SOF are ever shy. Why not say hello to her??


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 1:37am

Post #266 of 381 (4123 views)
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Also agreeing, and a question and a rhetorical question [In reply to] Can't Post

I see Maeglin as conflicted. Turgon is
  1. his express ticket to power
  2. the killer of his father
  3. his liberator from his father's tyranny
  4. the brother of his now-dead mother
  5. the light at the end of the "wow, the Noldor are impressive" rainbow
  6. the father of the girl he wants
Whereas Turgon seems to just like Maeglin, both for his ability and as the vestige of his sister.

Question: why is Aredhel not as smart and well-informed as Turgon and, I believe, Galadriel at this time? It's hard to imagine Finrod saying this about Galadriel: [Turgon to Aredhel's guards] "for though Morgoth be yet hemmed in the North there are many perils in Middle-earth of which the Lady knows nothing." She really seems like a carefree, naive, and teenagerish type of person who doesn't know there are bad things out there, or Dark Elves.

Rhetorical question: why the heck don't people ever listen to prophecies? Turgon tells Aredhel if she leaves, ill will come to both of them. Curunir tells Eol (rather charitably given their icy enmity) that he should go home and stop pursuing Aredhel, or he'll never go home again.

Now, if Maciliel tells me to exit my internet browser before the cock crows thrice, I most certainly will, because I am not a foolish Noldo, so please don't keep any prophecies to yourself.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 1:42am

Post #267 of 381 (4119 views)
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Clarification of the 'no hello' zone [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
.... one thing springs to mind.... if celegorm and curufinwe see aredhel in the forest, because they are keeping a watch on eol, why don't they announce themselves to her? they are all friends and are still on good terms (she had just stayed with them).
thank you so much, brethil tengwadil, for unearthing all of this. the storylines of aredhel, eol, and maeglin make +so much more sense now+.




You are so welcome, as always, Telpemairo!

This section of the Notes deals with why they did not either hail her or intervene, though their scouts saw her and reported it to them:

"This they did eventually when Aredel again began to visit the borders of Nan Elmoth, or stray beyond them. For they held a constant watch on Nan Elmoth, mistrusting the doings and goings of Eol, and their scouts espied her at times riding in the sunlight by the wood-eaves. But now it seemed too late [to] them; and they all [? read they thought that all] they would get for any peril would be the rebuke or wrath of Turgon. And this [they] wished in no way to receive. For they were now under a shadow of fear, and beginning to prepare for war again ere the strength of Thangorodrim became insuperable."

One stickly issue is the timeline, which CT points out, is a full 55 years before the lifting of the Siege of Angband and the resultant Dagor Bragollach; so formal preparations would not have been underway yet. But the overall idea on JRRT's part is that they both wished to avoid entanglement with Turgon, and to have other issues to be concerned with. Presumably as well, they might have felt that there was some bad blood between brother and sister, (remember she said 'escape' back in the day) and since they had hosted her upon her 'escape' they had no wish to incur the brother's displeasure. In addition, since she walked free in the wood, I don't think they saw her as a prisoner - Curufin doesn't see the cracks in the relationship until he notes Aredhel and Maeglin fleeing; at that point he makes his remarks to Eol. close behind.



Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 1:44am

Post #268 of 381 (4127 views)
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because you asked [In reply to] Can't Post

 
because you asked, and i am nothing if not wholly unwilling, i will relate to you a prophecy that concerns you.

you must not, under any circumstances, send me one million dollars. my heart warns me that if you do, you will somehow be mistaken for a royal elf of the house of fingolfin and ensnared in nan emloth.

i hope that was clear. let me know if you need my address.


cheers --

.

aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 7 2013, 1:46am)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 1:50am

Post #269 of 381 (4131 views)
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that does [In reply to] Can't Post

 
indeed clarify... .thank you again, brethil tengwadil. : )

your contributions on this thread have been +invaluable+ (and that's pretty typical for you, btw)... you're really helped to open up these characters and chapter for me.


pcheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 1:59am

Post #270 of 381 (4109 views)
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Thoughts back on Maeglin [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
i'm mostly in agreement here, brethil... except i think it very plausible that father-love starved maeglin might very much look to turgon as a father-figure. i think that would be problematic in many ways, and would exacerbate any mixed feelings about having his father killed. you can honestly hate a parent, an abusive horrible, monstrous parent, and be glad they're dead and +still+ be angry at the one who killed him. True, its possible, and I agree completely...just not sure I feel that in Maeglin. I think there was little or no connection between father and son here - through no fault of the son, but it still alters who he is.

and, yes, i very consciously used the phrase "sister-son," knowing that tolkien had something of a soft-spot for this sort of relationship (which he pulled in part from the cultures he studied; it was their term an often this was a special relationship -- i +think+ i read that in one of the letters). Yes, I thought you might have!Smile

i think turgon would have welcomed maeglin openly and joyfully. maeglin is now all that remains of his beloved sister. and, of course, the having no son and heir thing. I agree, and without reservation I think...out of darkness and sadness coming this unexpected gift of Maeglin, who has such promise.

aredhel doesn't strike me as a very warm person, but that could totally not be the case. one can have a high-handed attitude and be very loving and thoughtful. i wish we had more details about her personality and actions. she makes a very interesting foil for galadriel, her genealogical contemporary. Yes true - they are both masterful women, a bit rebellious too...again I feel a bit of chill when it comes to Aredhel, not the same feeling of warmth that I get with Galadriel - just my read of the two! Although she inspired love in her son, which is a happy thing to know, and gave her life to protect his.


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 2:04am

Post #271 of 381 (4107 views)
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Glad to be of service! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
indeed clarify... .thank you again, brethil tengwadil. : )
your contributions on this thread have been +invaluable+ (and that's pretty typical for you, btw)... you're really helped to open up these characters and chapter for me.




Thanks to you for the kind words! We will discuss it more during our Gondorian balcony luncheon! Especially since, CG being not wholly unwilling, that $1 million will be on the way shortly...! Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 2:22am

Post #272 of 381 (4107 views)
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Thanks, as always, Breth [In reply to] Can't Post

As I say, there is always backstory. Which is why Tolkien so satisfactorily stands up to our affectionate scrutiny, as you put it.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 2:26am

Post #273 of 381 (4122 views)
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Woo! I narrowly missed that swipe of Fate. [In reply to] Can't Post

There I was, poised at the mailbox, surreptitiously slipping an envelope stuffed with green stuff that was addressed to you. It was the TORN "Win A Million $ for Most Replies Award." But I got your post just in time, so nay, I shall not make the mistake of sending all that money that will only end in woe, and I burned the foul dollars as if they were ships at Losgar. There, I am saved from a destiny of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Thank you!


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 7 2013, 2:38am

Post #274 of 381 (4113 views)
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Me too; and Idril comments [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad you said that:

Quote

again I feel a bit of chill when it comes to Aredhel, not the same feeling of warmth that I get with Galadriel - just my read of the two!

I have had that cold sense of her since my first read, and I never warm up to her or feel much loss when she dies. She has a few moments where I see some warmth in her. I especially like the part where in telling Maeglin of all the wonders of Gondolin, she wonders why she ever left it and feels homesick. There's something intimate in that mother-son "this is what I was like before you were born" conversation and how it kindles her heart that makes her appealing in that moment. Then in Gondolin I find it noble of her and Idril to persuade Turgon to spare Eol even after he's wounded her. But otherwise, she's not someone I'd like to meet, and I'd like to meet a lot of these people.

BTW, doesn't Idril come off great in this chapter? Even with little said about her, I get the impression that she's mature for her age, thoughtful, discerning, confident, and wise with the wisdom of Melian. It's significant that she helps persuade Turgon to spare Eol when she doesn't even know him--Auntie Aredhel (who would not be a good advice columnist, unless it was "Don't do what I did") was making a plea for her husband, however estranged, but he was a total stranger to Idril and he'd just tried to kill her auntie. That's character.

Next, Maeglin seems able to see through everyone else, but Idril trumps him by seeing through him, and he's supposed to be the master of disguising his thoughts and intents. Isn't that just totally cool of her? Yet she doesn't make a big fuss out of him either, she just avoids him, and adroitly, one may assume. Later one she will have foresight AND ACTUALLY ACT ON IT--TAKE NOTE, NOLDOR--and prepare the refugee exit that they'll need someday, and she has the good sense to (again, adroitly) conceal it from Maeglin. Move aside, Tuor, I want this woman for myself!


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 7 2013, 2:46am

Post #275 of 381 (4088 views)
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love this post! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
well-written, insightful, funny, and even some gratuitous violence! (shoving tuor out of the way -- go cg!)

yes, with just a sprinkling of vowels and consonants, we get a sense of who ildril is. i mean, it's nice to know the other elf-girls in gym class called her "silverfoot" because she was so good at kickball, but that's really not terribly illuminating.

loved the +so+ insightful thing you said about maeglin having this superior power to see through everyone else, but +she+ can see through +him+. so very well said. : )


cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

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