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Silmarilion Discussion: Chapter 16 -- "Of Maeglin"
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Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 4:26pm

Post #226 of 381 (4043 views)
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great stuff [In reply to] Can't Post

 
eol strikes me as the type who, in old age (steeping and stewing in bitter isolation for eons) -- let's say he got to be cirdan's present age --- he'd be the get-off-my-lawn-type. with the addition that, if you didn't get off his lawn, he'd cut you down and throw your bones into the fire to feed his forge.

i tease eol, of course.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 4:27pm

Post #227 of 381 (4035 views)
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NIMG = Not In My Girdle--I like it! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 4:32pm

Post #228 of 381 (4038 views)
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Finding Gondolin. It's not on the GPS apparently... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Those are great finds to shed light on the matter. There's always a backstory to everything in Tolkien, isn't there? There are, and even in abandoned ideas, or notes such as are associated with Ch 16, the insights can be invaluable, as it throws light on what JRRT was thinking and feeling.

Among other things, this gives a concrete example of how successful Morgoth's dirty war to create dissension among the Eldar was. We read about it in general, and see it in Thingol, but not really anywhere else. Yes, he persisted in this strategy for a long time, quietly in the background.

What surprises me is Tolkien ruminating about the SOF "sending word to Gondolin." How does one do that when you don't know where it is? I think it's in Unfinished Tales where the common speculation is that Gondolin is hidden somewhere in southern Beleriand, because the north is more populated and there are fewer places to hide, and it seems logical to assume if you hide from Morgoth, you do it far away. So all this detail about sending word through the haunted land to Gondolin contradicts the hidden nature of the city, including the problem that people discovering it were either killed or imprisoned. But maybe Tolkien only drew an absolute girdle (so to speak) around Gondolin at a later date and had previously allowed for some rare, secret messages to get in and out. Or maybe the SOF had his phone number and were going to text him. Of course the cell service was notoriously bad in Gondolin, something to do with the walls maybe...in any case, I wondered that myself, and I can only surmise that either Ardehel gave them SOME idea where it was, or at least how one could send a message (write it in code, put in the in hazel tree beside the big rock...) if one wanted to. It seems having escaped, Aredhel really trusted the SoF with a very revealing amount of information. Whether she actually divulged the spot, or implied it, I think is the only explanation as to how they potentially could have notified Turgon. It sounds like she was a bit - bitter? rebellious? - in her telling of her tale to Curufin and Celegorm, between using the word 'escape' and also potentially exposing, at the very least, the general area of the city.Interesting that many years later she will not reveal the spot to Maeglin...fear that Eol would then discover it, or an insurance that if Maeglin were to bolt, he would need her guidance to get there?


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 4:35pm

Post #229 of 381 (4062 views)
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Now admitting "Maeglin" to Ward 3 (warning, do not put in room near patient "Eol") [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we watch similar shows... the Hercule Poirot voice was fabulous! "Ah yes, Hastings, the Edain they do not have the cuisine, they only have the food."

And I am thrilled you are also re-watching TNG! Ahh...

But I would also add that your psychoanalysis of the patient "Maeglin" is spot on, Dr. Mac. He suffers from an overprotective, yet abusive father and a mother clearly suffering from "Nan Elmoth" syndrome (very much like Stockholm syndrome, but without clear signs of torture and a mental state one could only describe as "not wholly unwilling.")

He has learned to hate part of who he is, so introducing Maeglin to that side of himself must have been both exhilarating and traumatic. The Gondolidrim (there's a mouthful...or is it Gondolinodrim?) may have completely accepted Maeglin, but in Maeglin's mind a poorly worded compliment, a strange look, those must have all piled up in his sub-conscious and are poised to wreck havoc. He tries to fend it off by excelling at a great many things, but his tight-lipped demeanour -- especially surrounding the Eol-Turgon "conversation" -- betrays a "still waters run deep" character.

I also wonder here if he wanted to say to his father "you were right, these Noldor are rather uppity and annoying and I don't fit in here" but how could he without succumbing to the same fate as father? How could he without alienating his mother who at least was there as a positive influence on his life?

All very interesting...


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 4:37pm

Post #230 of 381 (4041 views)
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I was going for... [In reply to] Can't Post

"not in Melian's girdle", but I like your as-said-by-Thingol version !Wink


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 4:42pm

Post #231 of 381 (4040 views)
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telain, telain, telain! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

[telain]
I think we watch similar shows... the Hercule Poirot voice was fabulous! "Ah yes, Hastings, the Edain they do not have the cuisine, they only have the food."
[/telain]



not +only+ did i laugh out loud a this (!) -- but i found myself spontaneously clapping my hands (!). you are hys+ter+ical! : )

one of the reasons i laughed is that +not only+ did you capture poirot's speech idiom, but you also plucked an actual line from one of the shows -- i know because i've been watching +scads+ of poirot lately (streamed). +ha!+ +ho!+ (!)

fan+tas+tic!..... well done. : )

(and so distracted i haven't even read the rest of the post... 'tho i immediately thought your subject line was riotously funny...)


cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 4:42pm

Post #232 of 381 (4038 views)
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Eol's perspectives [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I really like this imagery. It is moments like these that seem to stop time and allow the reader to think, imagine, get a sense of the characters and the weight of the moment. Well said!


Quote
... like Eol mounting up and throwing a caustically polite remark over his shoulder.


and thank you for the kind remark... It leaves me to wonder if my sub-conscious is just far more with it than my conscious...or perhaps I over-think...no, that's not possible...is it?
Thank you Telain!...and your thinking is just fine, cute bedhead and all. Wink

I read that Eol's hate of the Noldor as usurpers was not justified from a 'normal, non-Eol' point of view. I assume the reasoning is due to Thingol telling Maedhros et al., that they can have anything that is NIMG (since we are throwing out crazy vocabulary and acronyms -- any guesses on my made-up one?). So, in reality the Noldor who return to fight Morgoth are perfectly justified in settling in the areas they chose. Of course, Eol's hatred of the Noldor really stems from anything they do, ever. He has remarkable capacity to turn anything touched by them into something to be loathed. I feel the process is something like: observe (admire), twist (rewrite history), hate (and be jealous). I'm sure he does see them as usurpers, but in an objective view, he is not justified in thinking so.
Its something I enjoy in JRRT's works; the voices are the character's voices, not the narrators. They don't always have the whole picture, and sometimes what they believe as truth is just wrong. He allows his characters to have subjectivity, and independence of thought, which is wonderful.

And I do like the idea of Eol being trapped by Morgoth, at least for a time. It makes his whole being seem ... understandable. Not excusable, but perhaps I could scrounge up some sympathy for him if I imagined that as part of his background.
Indeed true, even as an abandoned idea (which I don't wholly know: he may have kept in rather in his heart for Eol but kept us in shadow- the idea appears in two 'sketches' but never makes it into print version) it defines both activities we know we occurring (Morgoth) and the quiet, erosive marring that he is capable of, even when sulking about and seeming to be of distant concern.



Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 4:44pm

Post #233 of 381 (4055 views)
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(**applause**) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think we watch similar shows... the Hercule Poirot voice was fabulous! "Ah yes, Hastings, the Edain they do not have the cuisine, they only have the food."

Priceless.CoolCoolCool


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2013, 4:44pm

Post #234 of 381 (4031 views)
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ok, the rest of your post [In reply to] Can't Post

 
... is cracking me up as well...

"nan emloth syndrome"
"a mental state one could only describe as 'not wholly unwilling.'"

you are on +fire+ today telain! (but not in a maedhros way.)


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 4:46pm

Post #235 of 381 (4037 views)
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I also raise my glass to Brethil and immediately ask more questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for all the amazing backstory!

Great question, CG! How does one "get word to Gondolin?" And how have certain people found out certain things about certain other people (Eol and Aredhel). Eol gets out from time to time, but he avoids SoF like the plague and is not really interested in talking ot his "own" people either.

I continue to wonder about Eol's "servants". Who were they? Could they "get out" from time to time? Did they get vacation days? Part of me thinks that Eol might not have time to consider whither they go and why, so I am therefore inclined to think that they do.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 4:52pm

Post #236 of 381 (4030 views)
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NIMG (*pfft....!*) [In reply to] Can't Post

NIMG = Not In My Girdle!!!

Make sure you do the extended hand roll too, and if anyone is brought before Thingol, maybe we would be treated to a "Oh no you di'int...!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 5:02pm

Post #237 of 381 (4035 views)
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Eol's household [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Thanks for all the amazing backstory! Most welcome as always!

Great question, CG! How does one "get word to Gondolin?" And how have certain people found out certain things about certain other people (Eol and Aredhel). Eol gets out from time to time, but he avoids SoF like the plague and is not really interested in talking ot his "own" people either. Ahh yes...see above, but as for the 'how' it seems deep mutual suspicion (with more spying from the C and C side than the Eol side) plus a rather talkative flown little bird...

I continue to wonder about Eol's "servants". Who were they? Could they "get out" from time to time? Did they get vacation days? Part of me thinks that Eol might not have time to consider whither they go and why, so I am therefore inclined to think that they do. Well, Eol had qualities - and initially even something to attract Aredhel - so I feel like he would inspire a certain amount of loyalty just based on himself and his own type of magnetism. I think they did get out, but 'as silent and secret' as their master, they had no desire to leave or to share his business with anyone else. (Were the servants exclusively Dwarves? If so, even more reason they were loyal only to one master, especially a craftsman, and had no desire to chat or borrow sugar or black powder from the neighbors.)


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Jun 6 2013, 5:02pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 5:13pm

Post #238 of 381 (4010 views)
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Maybe you send word to Gondolin by eagle, if you can find a co-operative one.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 5:14pm

Post #239 of 381 (4008 views)
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I'd say the Noldor had the right to settle unsettled areas without previous Sindarin population.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 5:17pm

Post #240 of 381 (4022 views)
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I thought it was "Noldor in Muddy Galoshes", but I see that's wide of the mark [In reply to] Can't Post

Wait "Widė of the Mark" - one of Éomers knights, I think?
Probably the fat one

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2013, 5:20pm

Post #241 of 381 (3992 views)
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Slow clap to everyone who has participated! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 5:27pm

Post #242 of 381 (4013 views)
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Is that the guy on the Clydesdale? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Wait "Widė of the Mark" - one of Éomers knights, I think?
Probably the fat one




SmileSmile

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 5:30pm

Post #243 of 381 (4003 views)
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That would be the respect slow clap or the heckling one? :) [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
In some cultures, slow, synchronized clapping by displeased audience members is considered not applause, but the opposite: a form of heckling, or an expression of mocking dislike or disapproval of the performer. The person being slowly clapped at may interpret the clap as an insult, and a sign to leave the stage. Comedian Fred Allen, in his book Much Ado about Me, wrote that one noted vaudeville house developed a rhythm ("clap, clap, clap clap clap"), the maddening repetition of which could completely unnerve a performer.

A notable occurrence of a slow handclap took place during a speech made by British Prime Minister Tony Blair on 7 June 2000, when he was heckled and slow-handclapped by members of the Women's Institute.[6][7]

The slow handclap is occasionally employed to the opposite effect. In the tradition of London Livery Companies, for example, an assembled party (at, for example, a formal dinner) will routinely perform a slow handclap as a gesture of respect and deference to the arriving party of the Master and Court of the Company. In Hungary, it is known as vastaps (iron clap), so named because the theater audience is so impressed that they continue to clap even after the iron fire-proof curtain is lowered.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applause


Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 7:11pm

Post #244 of 381 (3993 views)
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I thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

So glad you are enjoying my often off-centred humour!

On list of things to do:
- check for Poirot episodes on Netflix

too many things to do!!!!


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 7:12pm

Post #245 of 381 (3986 views)
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you are all making my day!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 7:15pm

Post #246 of 381 (3982 views)
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and hopefully not in a balrog way... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but if it must be so then I say "with wings, please."

I still think it is the dearth of sleep... Perhaps I don't need sleep! That would be helpful for the "getting things done" part of my day! (night).


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 7:17pm

Post #247 of 381 (4002 views)
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Absolutely.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


telain
Rohan

Jun 6 2013, 7:20pm

Post #248 of 381 (3988 views)
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funny, funny, funny! [In reply to] Can't Post

also, Noldor in My Gaol -- for those who disobey the first meaning, warning, threat, thing.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 6 2013, 7:37pm

Post #249 of 381 (3978 views)
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NIMG? Still guessing: Newts In Manwė's G-string? (Valar office party gets excessive) ? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


elaen32
Gondor


Jun 6 2013, 7:49pm

Post #250 of 381 (3986 views)
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Pfffffttt!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you mind noWiz??!!! I'm trying to drink some tea here having just eaten. The picture you have just conjured is not conducive to the digestion or even just swallowing!!!!Wink

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"

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