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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Silmarilion Discussion: Chapter 12 -- "Of Men," Part 2: The Biosphere of Arda
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telain
Rohan

May 10 2013, 1:05pm

Post #76 of 110 (316 views)
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pure brilliance! [In reply to] Can't Post

And I have to agree with Sam. It makes me sad, too. But then there's the laughing... thank you, Maciliel!


Maciliel
Valinor


May 10 2013, 1:13pm

Post #77 of 110 (305 views)
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hah! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i consider laughter one of our gifts. : )

honestly, a good portion of the edain can be described this way.

we are a race of extremes.


btw... it occurred to me this morning... feanor strikes me as quite.... edain-ish.

the egotism, the vainglory, the focusing on the works of his own hand, his needs vs. the harmony among all.



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


telain
Rohan

May 10 2013, 1:18pm

Post #78 of 110 (306 views)
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I like where this is going [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been struggling with the "need" to distance Edain from the Divine ever since these discussions came up. I think "insulated" is a really good word for it and here are some more thoughts in that general vicinity...

What if distance from the Divine makes (at least some) want to achieve some positive aspect of Divinity? The innate curiosity of human nature therefore seeking to know and understand gives better "true" understanding of what it means to be Divine. What if the Valar realized that "familiarity breeds contempt" (hello? Is that you, Feanor?) even among the Powers That Be? And that distance give a humility to the Edain that is really important for understanding certain aspects of the Song? Could this be why Nessa-Mithrandir seem more important to the coming "Age of Men" than to the time of the Elves?

I was also thinking about your (CuriousG) hilarious comments about Men being tacky enough to die in Valinor. The Valar have experienced this by now in several ways: Miriel, Finwe, the Trees, and in close proximity the Teleri, and metaphorically Feanor. What if they don't want the Edain to come to Valinor because they don't want to get attached to them knowing they will die? Not to be too morbid, but just after our cat died, our house seemed to lose its "anima" (for want of a better word). We've grown accustomed to how the house feels without him now, but I admit I am a little shy of getting another cat. No cat will be able to replace him (he was a pretty special creature -- as they all are) , but what if the Valar are simply too hesitant to adopt another pet?


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 10 2013, 1:50pm

Post #79 of 110 (305 views)
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And cool kids are usually immoral [In reply to] Can't Post

So the Men, who were brought up with very strict parents, envied the immoral orgies of the Elves, and who wouldn't? But having immoral orgies for centuries tires out even the most vigorous amongst us, hence the Elves faded due to their immorality.

If Tolkien wasn't such a sloppy writer, we could have settled this issue a long time ago.


Maciliel
Valinor


May 10 2013, 1:58pm

Post #80 of 110 (302 views)
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it is only... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
they're never going to let us into valinor now. (**haha!**)

but if thorin's not going there, what's the point, anyway?


[brethil] Mac you crack me up!!! Smile
All the cool kids hang out in Arda anyway. Cool [/brethil]




brethil, you know i only speak of what is logical.

if only we could present this logic to the females of the edain. it would solve half of this issue of valinor-longing


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 10 2013, 2:06pm

Post #81 of 110 (303 views)
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*rolling with laughter* ! [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Brethil
Half-elven


May 10 2013, 4:44pm

Post #82 of 110 (285 views)
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Excellent logic here! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
they're never going to let us into valinor now. (**haha!**)
but if thorin's not going there, what's the point, anyway?

[brethil] Mac you crack me up!!! Smile All the cool kids hang out in Arda anyway. Cool [/brethil]


brethil, you know i only speak of what is logical.
if only we could present this logic to the females of the edain. it would solve half of this issue of valinor-longing





Your logic is sound Mac! Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 10 2013, 5:02pm

Post #83 of 110 (296 views)
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The Summoning - did it mess up the Elven/Edain dynamic? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I've been struggling with the "need" to distance Edain from the Divine ever since these discussions came up. I think "insulated" is a really good word for it and here are some more thoughts in that general vicinity...
What if distance from the Divine makes (at least some) want to achieve some positive aspect of Divinity? The innate curiosity of human nature therefore seeking to know and understand gives better "true" understanding of what it means to be Divine. What if the Valar realized that "familiarity breeds contempt" (hello? Is that you, Feanor?) even among the Powers That Be? And that distance give a humility to the Edain that is really important for understanding certain aspects of the Song? Could this be why Nessa-Mithrandir seem more important to the coming "Age of Men" than to the time of the Elves?




You are right there, concerning familiarity and contempt, as another facet of the Summoning that went awry. I think the 'perfect' vision that JRRT talks about could only happen WITHOUT the Summoning, with the Eldar too not 'too close' to the Divine; even including Melkor in the picture. I think a certain amount of darkness gives balance to the Song and the Universe, and he writes that Eru does not seek flatness but richness and depth. But without the Summoning, there would be no Silmarils...(so no Oath)...maybe the Valar would have paid attention and Melkor would not have gotten to the Trees...(undistracted, but contented deities)...with the Firstborn to tend in Arda, maybe the Valar would have naturally created a source of light to share with them...(tending them from afar as was intended)...and the tremendous talents of the Firstborn would have made a beautiful, safer world for the Edain to awaken in.
Aaaand (yes I have a point here, somewhere) ...maybe under those circumstances, without always regretting what was lost and instead being totally committed to the stewardship of Arda, the Firstborn (particularly the Noldor) might have looked upon the Edain with more care, more 'shepherd' feelings, rather than regarding them with disdain. The Edain would have had the Firstborn as a sort of 'conduit' of lore and wisdom, preserving as you say a distance that might be what Eru intended for Men.
Yes, I think the Istari are a later thought, sort of a patch-job, and totally correct there Telain, much more of a mortal-necessary function.

(hugs) in condolence for your kitty BTW! Angelic

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on May 10 2013, 5:03pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


May 11 2013, 1:48pm

Post #84 of 110 (269 views)
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here are some quotes [In reply to] Can't Post

 
.... from morgoth's ring, lumped together... speaking to the place of the eldar in the biosphere of middle-earth, suffering, etc....

i find the titling/sectioning confusing, so i'm citing as best i can...

pg 247, the later quenta silmarillion (ii) -- the valar are discussing how to deal with the permanent nature of elven marriage, death, and finwe and miriel.

mandos: "for not in death only hath the shadow entered into aman with the coming of the children destined to suffer; there are other sorrows, even if they be less. long hath she [indis] loved finwe, in patience and without bitterness. aule nameth feanor the greatest of the eldar, and in potency that is true. but i say unto you that the children of indis shall also be great, and the tale of arda more glorious because of their coming. andd from them shall spring things so fair that no tears shall dim their beauty; in whose being the valar, and the kindreds both of elves and of men that are to come shall all have part, an in whose deeds they shall rejoice. so that, long hence when all that here is, and seemeth yet fair an impregnable, shall nonetheless have faded and passed away, the light of aman shall not wholly cease ammong the free peoples of arda until the end.

when he tha shall e called earendil setteth foot upon the shores of aman, ye shall remember my words. in that hour ye will not say that the statute of justice hath borne fruit only in death; and the griefs that shall comme ye shall weigh in the balance, and they shall not seem too heavy compared with the rising of the light when valinor groweth dim."


there's a +lot+ going on here.

mandos seems to be talking of a future time when the beauty and the good and wondrous and healing things produced by the actions of the children of indis will give hope to the world, preserve what will eventually fade in valinor (!), and enrich all the children of iluvatar. in mentioning the edain in this (and the aman reference) he appears to be saying that this is going to happen on the mainland. he is saying this +way+ before feanor is an adult, and thus way before the return of the noldor, yet he appears to be saying that at least the children of indis will be returning to the mainland to work these great deeds, and it is their place to do so.



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


May 11 2013, 3:05pm

Post #85 of 110 (266 views)
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Fantastic citations Mac! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
.... from morgoth's ring, lumped together... speaking to the place of the eldar in the biosphere of middle-earth, suffering, etc....
i find the titling/sectioning confusing, so i'm citing as best i can...
pg 247, the later quenta silmarillion (ii) -- the valar are discussing how to deal with the permanent nature of elven marriage, death, and finwe and miriel.

mandos: "for not in death only hath the shadow entered into aman with the coming of the children destined to suffer; there are other sorrows, even if they be less. long hath she [indis] loved finwe, in patience and without bitterness. aule nameth feanor the greatest of the eldar, and in potency that is true. but i say unto you that the children of indis shall also be great, and the tale of arda more glorious because of their coming. andd from them shall spring things so fair that no tears shall dim their beauty; in whose being the valar, and the kindreds both of elves and of men that are to come shall all have part, an in whose deeds they shall rejoice. so that, long hence when all that here is, and seemeth yet fair an impregnable, shall nonetheless have faded and passed away, the light of aman shall not wholly cease ammong the free peoples of arda until the end.
when he tha shall e called earendil setteth foot upon the shores of aman, ye shall remember my words. in that hour ye will not say that the statute of justice hath borne fruit only in death; and the griefs that shall comme ye shall weigh in the balance, and they shall not seem too heavy compared with the rising of the light when valinor groweth dim."


there's a +lot+ going on here.

mandos seems to be talking of a future time when the beauty and the good and wondrous and healing things produced by the actions of the children of indis will give hope to the world, preserve what will eventually fade in valinor (!), and enrich all the children of iluvatar. in mentioning the edain in this (and the aman reference) he appears to be saying that this is going to happen on the mainland. he is saying this +way+ before feanor is an adult, and thus way before the return of the noldor, yet he appears to be saying that at least the children of indis will be returning to the mainland to work these great deeds, and it is their place to do so.
Though all this is ostensibly about Elfkind, I see here so much of JRRT's philosophy of the development of the human soul, both in the first passage dealing with how the children of Indis shall (through their deeds and their bloodline) enrich Arda and thus the world of Men; and in the second passage where the hope of the world lives in Earandil . In Letter #131 "The contact of Men and Elves already foreshadows the history of the later Ages, and a recurrent theme is the idea that in Men (as they now are) there is a strand of 'blood' and inheritance, derived from the Elves, and that the art and poetry of Men is largely dependent on it, or modified by it." A footnote: "Of course in reality this only means that my 'elves' are only a representation or an apprehension of a part of human nature, but that is not the legendary mode of talking." What I see here is his incorporating the mythological, shall we say 'historical' Elf idea into the real-world human mind: mixing ancient human legends, via ME, back into humanity. In the myths we have the combination occur through the line of Finarfin to Arwen, whose Elven blood enters the royal house of Men and enriches it, in a poetic and spiritual way (in real-world gifts such as art and poetry, and although not stated love of nature) that lasts beyond the fading of Elfkind. So again I think through the use of Elven immortality and gifts, he subtly, beautifully (but maybe with a trace of sadness) enriches the nature of humanity. Angelic That's awesome.


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


May 11 2013, 3:33pm

Post #86 of 110 (269 views)
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i think [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i think you should get a tattoo that says "# 131".

ha! : )


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on May 11 2013, 3:33pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


May 11 2013, 3:41pm

Post #87 of 110 (258 views)
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Haha!!! ROFL Mac! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
i think you should get a tattoo that says "# 131".

ha! : )




Yes, I do love that one don't I? Of course there are #156 and #183 too of which I am very fond...maybe just "Letters: I love 'em" Maybe in Sindar. It might make a very interesting tramp stamp Wink (NY definition: across lower back). Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


May 11 2013, 3:43pm

Post #88 of 110 (255 views)
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a new name for you... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i'm suggesting an epesse for you...

tengwadil.


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


May 11 2013, 3:50pm

Post #89 of 110 (253 views)
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I love that Mac! [In reply to] Can't Post

And am deeply flattered! Angelic

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


May 11 2013, 3:51pm

Post #90 of 110 (251 views)
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both your public names go rather nicely together... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
brethil tengwadil


... no?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


May 11 2013, 4:03pm

Post #91 of 110 (248 views)
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They do sound rather nice...! [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps based on your gorgeous avatar we can call you Telpemairo? (Maciliel Telpemairo....also a very nice ring [haha JRRT pun] to it!) SmileAngelic

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Valinor


May 11 2013, 4:05pm

Post #92 of 110 (241 views)
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(googling "mairo" now....) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
(busily googling "mairo" now.... it +does+ sound lovely! : ))


(cheers -- one second --- )


(.)


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Valinor


May 11 2013, 4:06pm

Post #93 of 110 (236 views)
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alright... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
...i'm googling... but i'm afraid tengwadil might have to help me out here. : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 11 2013, 4:08pm

Post #94 of 110 (234 views)
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Reply to. "Fantastic citations" [In reply to] Can't Post

That's torn it- going round the house humming the Beach Boys

You know
She's giving us good citations
Increasing our expectations
Ooh ooh ooh, good citations....

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


Brethil
Half-elven


May 11 2013, 4:10pm

Post #95 of 110 (257 views)
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Yes if you google it fixates on the Italian plumber...!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.elfdict.com/...amp;ajax=false#mairo

check here though! (I thought rocco also sounded too much like an italian plumber!) Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 11 2013, 4:22pm

Post #96 of 110 (232 views)
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.*..Good citations..*. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That's torn it- going round the house humming the Beach Boys

You know
She's giving us good citations
Increasing our expectations
Ooh ooh ooh, good citations....






Ok we have developed RR tattos and theme music today!

NoWiz that is fantastic...and CATCHY!!!!!!!!! (hmm hmm hmmmmm....)

And some nicks - shall we call you Noncurunir?

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on May 11 2013, 4:30pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


May 11 2013, 4:41pm

Post #97 of 110 (243 views)
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ha! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
(ha! re italian plumbers...)

when you mentioned my avatatar, and with the prefix of "telpe" i thought you might be going for "silver horse," but i only knew of "roch/roc" for horse in quenya.

i found this on wikipedia when i googled "mairo"...

"The name Maiar is in the Quenya tongue and comes from the Elvish root maya- "excellent, admirable"."

also, from the link you provided, i googled the source of that attribution/attributor to "horse" on that site, and got this tolkien language site....

http://folk.uib.no/hnohf

downloaded the quenya language list, and found these references...


Quote
"mai (1) adv. "well" (VT47:6), apparently also used as prefix (PE17:17:162, 163, 172)

mai (2) conj. "if" (PE14:59 cf. VT49:20; possibly obsoleted by #1 above; for “if”, Tolkien later used qui)

Maia pl. Maiar noun "the Beautiful" (MR:49), the lesser (= non-Vala) Ainur that entered Eä. Variant Máya in VT42:13/VT47:18, pl. Máyar in PM:363, 364 and VT47:18 (possibly, Máya is to be understood as the older form of Maia). With negative prefix ú- also Úmaiar, Maiar who became evil and followed Melkor, such as Balrogs (MR:79, "Umaiar", MR:165).

maira adj. “admirable, excellent, precious”; “splendid, sublime” (“only of great, august or splendid things”) (PE17:163, 172). Cf. Mairon.

mairë noun “work of high and beautiful art” (or the process of producing a work) (PE17:163)

mairëa adj. “beautiful” (of things made by art) (PE17:163). An alternative (and peculiar) form “mairia” is also implied in the source.

mairo noun "horse" (GL:56; later sources have rocco, olombo)

Mairon, masc. name “the Admirable” (cf. adj. maira), said to be the original name of Sauron, changed when he was suborned by Melkor, “but he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon ‘King Excellent’, until after the downfall of Númenor” (PE17:183). Since Sauron had joined Melkor before the Elves came to Valinor and developed the Quenya language, we are perhaps to understand that Mairon is a translation by sense of Sauron’s original Valarin name, though Sauron himself may seem to have used the Elvish form in Middle-earth and on Númenor."


all these meanings flow very nicely together for me, and it's a lovely, beautiful name, and i +thank you+ : ) , so much for the kindly given epesse. : )

(and i love that you find my avatar lovely... i do as well -- no surprise, perhaps : ).)

hantanyel órenyallo, brethil tengwadil.



cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


May 11 2013, 5:11pm

Post #98 of 110 (222 views)
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Another appellation NoWiz. But it might be a spoiler. [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe Furincurunir (hidden wizard) is better for you NoWiz...since you probably are one and are just keeping it up your sleeve...

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 11 2013, 5:32pm

Post #99 of 110 (213 views)
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Furincurunir! Love it! (Sounds nice, & all those curvy letters)!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


telain
Rohan

May 12 2013, 10:16pm

Post #100 of 110 (199 views)
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the Hallowing of the Silmarils as protection? [In reply to] Can't Post

one thought I had that might be able to be shoe-horned in here...

Relating to Frodo and Bilbo and their handling of the One Ring -- the wounds of which essentially allow their passage to Valinor for healing -- remind me of our continuing discussion of the handling of the Silmarils once they have been hallowed by Varda. Add to that the gap between Edain and the Valar, which comes up in this chapter and I wonder if the hallowing of the Silmarils was more a protection for the Edain than a protection for the Silmarils.

If the One Ring -- a ring created by a Maia -- could cause so much damage to a couple of sturdy Hobbits, what would the Silmarils do? Even an incredibly powerful force of goodness and purity is an incredibly strong force...

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