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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
May 4 2013, 11:43am
Post #76 of 86
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It would seem that some have decided that the perception is not there to be read, and are gping to willfully
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ignore it unless and until it becomes a matter too extreme to be capable of being ignored ( I suppose her telepathicly messaging him with a threat to confiscate his wand if he doesn't investigate Dol Guldur MIGHT do it, though I thankfully doubt anything as obnoxious as bit of true hyperbole would take place in these films).
I have been, and remain, one of the great, steadfast supporters of this movie. I thought it was a great movie, despite a fair number of flaws, most of which dealt in major deviances that did not play as well as the actual recorded events would have. The implication, even ambiguously, that Gandalf is some manner of underling within the Council, especially in regards to Galadriel as opposed to soley Saruman, is one of those flaws. It is not something solely imagined by us defenders of The Gray Messenger, especially since several major critics (remember all those reviews all of us were reading ere the movie released), including some of the more positive ones, specifically stated that Gandalf was "clearly" an inferior at the council, surrounded by his "higher ups and mentors" (mentors . . . wth? He isn't Saruman's apprentice, and he certainly isn't Elrond or Galadriel's! Faramir may be a "Wizard's pupil", but Gandalf simply IS a Wizard).
So, whether some amongst us acknowledge it or not, that perception IS out there, and not just amongst anecdotal encounters I and other members have had with more casual fans of the films, but also amongst some of the critics writing widely puplicized views of the films.
I generally loved this movie, but I didn't love seeing Gandalf, who specifically refused to head The Council EXACTLY because he was unwilling to be anserable to a committee outside of Eru and The Valar who had sent him, portrayed as being expressly answerable.
As to the power balance between himself and Galadriel. . . no one is asking that Gandalf go Arnold/Bruce/Sylvester on Dol Guldur, nor that Galadriel not be displayed as the majestic and powerful being she is. Merely that The Great Wizard and disguised Holy Spirit Gandalf not be badly shown up. ... as A LOT of people apparantly do not even get the understanding of the superior thing that you fear. Those conversation among "quasi-fans" as you call them seem really a bit hyperbole to me. I have yet to meet anyone who spend much time on thinking about the hierarchy of Middle-earth after watching AUJ.
You seem to totally ignore all arguments made in that direction.
Other than that I fully agree with Silverlode.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on May 4 2013, 11:46am)
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
May 4 2013, 12:02pm
Post #77 of 86
(2774 views)
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I think the second half of the scene was lovely, and I read it in the same aspect
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as you did. However, I think the tone for the first part had the potential effect of seeming like a fond but superior officer giving instruction to a subordinate, in no small part because of the shadow cast on it by the method of earlier introductory interaction.
As to the last bit, no the world will not end, but it will rankle some of us none the less if the mass perception of Gandalf is as an underling to The Elves, just as I am sure some would be rankled had Aragorn been portrayed as, say, a vassal of King Brand of Northern Rhovanion, or if Galadriel and Elrond were implied to be vassals of King Thranduil. Say Thranduil were to have a scene with Elrond and Galadriel both doing a slight courtsey and greeting him as, "Your Majesty," (not explicitly speaking misinformation about him being their sovereign, per se, but just the ambiguous implications) with no further explanation other than the film portraying him as King of The Elves. I do not doubt there would be some bitter comments spoken. I was going to post something to similar effect, then saw your post, which was more eloquent than I might have managed at present.
I do think that Galadriel appears to be the superior, but only momentarily until Saruman is revealed. After that, she appears Gandalf's equal, at best,imo. On greeting her, Gandalf bows to her as a matter of etiquette, since she is a ruler of her people. In RotK, Gandalf bows his head to Aragorn on the battle field after the Battle of Pelennor Fields in a similar manner, acknowledging him as king, not as Gandalf's superior. Going back to the WC, after the meeting, Galadriel comes over as sympathetic and supportive, rather than superior. I always like to think that she knew him as Olorin in Aman and now feels pity seeing such a great spirit suffering the privations of the body of an old Man. I realise that the casual fan will be unaware of this sort of back story, but I think these films are for all to enjoy at their own level. And if they don't realise the true hierarchy of the WC, as you say, the world is not going to end.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Arannir
Valinor
May 4 2013, 12:48pm
Post #78 of 86
(2773 views)
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well, I guess again we will agree to disagree...
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... when it comes to this discussion. I am simply not convinced on the mass confusion of millions harming the legendarium.
But I do not want to go in circles ;) good discussion nevertheless.
___
“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien
Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 4 2013, 3:19pm
Post #79 of 86
(2773 views)
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Yep, some of us are being willfully obtuse just to annoy you. It's not like we simply have honest opinions that are different than yours!
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 4 2013, 4:32pm
Post #80 of 86
(2750 views)
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Bomby izz Withholding any comments until...
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The EE comes out...since just about every Great scene told
"Will have some sorta...embellishment?"
Quoting Gandalf..
Didn't this Meeting Take All night and into the Morning?
On Bomby's 5 viewing
it seemed like
A "HighLight" reel..
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
May 5 2013, 9:18pm
Post #81 of 86
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Maybe, but how do you explain Bombadil's immunity to the effects of the Ring? That's not a typical trait of one of the Maiar - in fact, it's a trait that seems to be peculiar to Bombadil alone.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
May 6 2013, 12:09am
Post #82 of 86
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Not to annoy me, and not for having a different opinion. Yet, it is one thing to say "I did not perceive the scene thus,"
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it is quite another to say that it is unlikely that anyone could or would perceive it thus, especially when there is evidence that a good number of people perceived it in exactly that way. The willfulness is not so much a matter of annoying me, as it seems of a determination that there are no problems, on any level and from any reasonable assesment, with a potentially misleading scene (terribly misleading if read in a certain light). Yep, some of us are being willfully obtuse just to annoy you. It's not like we simply have honest opinions that are different than yours!
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
May 6 2013, 12:15am
Post #83 of 86
(2684 views)
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We don't see very many Maiar with the Ring, other than The Wizards who are burdned by
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some of the shortcomings of the forms they have assumed. I doubt that the Ring would have had the same effect on a liberated Olorin in the fullness of his Power and Vision that it had on him in the more cumbersome trappings of his Gandalf costume, or that it would have dominated Melain, or Uinen, Osse or Eonwye`, yet we never see it come into such hands, i.e., unrestrained hands of the same connatrual power as Sauron. Also there is Bombadil's nature to consider. It is possible that he had no more interest in Rings and Towers than did Shelob. That must be accounted for. Maybe, but how do you explain Bombadil's immunity to the effects of the Ring? That's not a typical trait of one of the Maiar - in fact, it's a trait that seems to be peculiar to Bombadil alone.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 6 2013, 1:49am
Post #84 of 86
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I perceive the situation this way:
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Gandalf is being genuinely humble.
In the UT passage Darkstone quoted above: "But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron." it is his nature to be humble. Further, the Istari were specifically, "coming in shapes weak and humble ... bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to do good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt."
Gandalf is doing what he was asked to do, and in a manner consistent with his underlying personality. Galadriel sees what's going on, and Elrond may. Saruman, however, has long since discarded the "weak and humble" directive and is being an arrogant jerk, which is his nature.
Sure, some people in the audience will accept all this at face value. But I think it's very likely that Gandalf will come through ok.
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Elenorflower
Gondor
May 9 2013, 12:06pm
Post #86 of 86
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I would happily sacrifice 90% of the jiggery pokery for a faithful version.
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