Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Hobbit: The Humiliation of Mithrandir
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All

Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 6:58am

Post #26 of 86 (2973 views)
Shortcut
I for what its worth would pay good money... [In reply to] Can't Post

...to see those pawns make "The Children of Hurin" come alive Sly

If you take out the problem with Morogoth being there before and after, I always thought this one is "easier" (dramaturgy-wise) to adapt in a screenplay than TH and especially LotR.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 7:06am

Post #27 of 86 (2961 views)
Shortcut
I share ALL of your fears, even if I am not QUITE as grim in my reading of his interaction in AUJ. Not QUITE!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

I was most bothered by Galadriel's initial interaction with him, because it was entirely inappropriate and innacurate. Being one of the few who KNEW he was an Ainur, an Angelic Holy Spirit sent by Eru and The Valar to give aid, she would not have treated him with anything that might be perceived as condescension. She would not have bowed and scraped, of course, nor would he ever have desired it so, but she wouldn't have treated him in anyway like an underling in need of instruction

Sadly, the way they structured that interface DAMAGED the otherwise WONDERFUL last interaction between them in film 1. Her words of comfort and the moment of friendly intimacy between them were wonderful, but the ambigously superior leaning way she interacts with them leading up to that moment makes it seem to some uninformed eyes more like a promise of aid from the Mighty to the less mighty, than the promise of support to a Mighty figure who still cannot be expected to stand alone against all the evils of the world.

I don't think Elrond's interaction was a problem, because it was made clear that Gandalf never felt or acted inferior to Elrond. Saruman's behaviour was perfectly in keeping with what we know of Saruman, jealous of Gandalf and ever trying to gainsay him in front of others among The Wise. The problem lay in just how defferent Gandalf was at moments. "I am only doing what I think is right,". . . that is not the tone of the Gandalf who blew enchanted smoke rings in Saruman's face, and pointedly ignored him at a council meeting during which Saruman was undermining his imperative prompting to move against Sauron.

I will say, this is another area in which a slightly larger council would have helped. Showing the Wizard to be one of the core, chief members of a greater body, rather than possibly the lowliest (seemingly from some perspectives) member of a quartet,.

Now, while my take on An Unexpected is SLIGHTLY less critical than yours concerning this matter, my fears moving forward are no less. How Dol Guldur is handled will go a long way towards how movie Gandalf is perceived in relation to the council ever after, and it will have larger implications for the entire film series. At worst, we could end up with a film series in which Wizards are suggested to be definitively inferior to High Elves and to The Witch King, and in which their is a perception that Galadriel or The Witch King of Angmar (a lieutenant of Sauron), could both have easily defeated a Balrog (a lieutenant of Melkor The Morgoth). A great many things could be badly turned upside down.


My great hope is that the Gandalf of the films has a transplated Amon Sul book moment in Dol Guldur against The Nine, more than holds his own, but is perhaps rescued as in picked up by Radagast once Sauron also enters the fray and the legions of Dol Guldur are loosed.

As to Galadriel. . . I SINCERELY hope that when Gandalf is injured, it is in the midst of battle with Sauron et al, and ALL of the members of THe Council are struggling, including Galadriel, and she makes a desperate stand and rescues him as an equal and comrade. MY GREAT FEAR is that he will be totally outclassed, and when he is shown to be completely in over his head, Galadriel will show up in an aura of unassailable light, impervious to all harm, floating along just as glorious and confident as she does in her own land of Lothlorien, quashing threats that Gandalf was barely matching strength with, and lifting him up like a goddess would a babe, after displaying powers to shame him, Sauron and every other Council member. THAT would be a travesty beyond words.

In Reply To
Warning: No small amount of sarcasm and annoyance following, but *it is purposeful*-I am certainly not the only one who worries about this.

Perhaps the thread title would be a more fitting title for Peter Jackson's second Hobbit installment. I love the films but it's clear we are hitting on problems.

So, in An Unexpected Journey we've established the fact that Gandalf is answerable to the much more formidable Lady Galadriel, who is clearly far more powerful than even Saruman the White (or at least so the filmmakers seem to believe, though I hope our late professor would have a thing or two to say to them). Galadriel has commanded Gandalf to "show her" the Morgul blade and has been his listen lady when he needed to talk (Gandalf's line about "the small things" was great, but the tone of the scene was not). We have seen how Gandalf has been treated disrespectfully by each member of the council: Elrond questioning him and frowning at him, telling him that he is "not the only guardian to stand watch over Middle-earth". Saruman being Saruman has of course belittled all of Gandalf's efforts.

Therefore, by the stage of film two Gandalf has clearly been singled out as the inferior. Sir Ian McKellen (who, in all seriousness is the best thing about Gandalf's portrayal) has told us that at some point Gandalf will be rescued by his friend Radagast, though this is acceptable, since they are of the same order. The real problem arises now that we know about the whole "Gandalf doll" scenario. I presume therefore that the Wizard is knocked out of the battle of Dol Guldur, having been injured by (knowing PJ) a lowly Orc, or even worse by his nemesis the Witch-King (We book fans haven't forgotten the RotK EE). But fear not, for help is at hand and in one sweep The Great and Mighty Galadriel picks up Gandalf's unconscious form and bears him out of the fray, returning in wrath to single-handedly throw down the walls of Dol Guldur (this is PJ, remember, and don't forget that this exact thing happened many years later).

Because of this, Gandalf is probably late to the battle of the Five Armies and is therefore denied several of his finest moments: saving Bilbo from Thorin's wrath and his delivery of "Halt! Dread has come upon you all!" Doubtless he will end up with his arm in a sling, just to make sure that several more non-book readers can have permission to dub Gandalf as "the worst Wizard ever".

Well, that was a rant. I know a lot of this isn't set in stone but some of the words dropped by cast/crew members are very worrying indeed.

Fellow Gandalf fans, tell me: how did it come to this?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 7:08am

Post #28 of 86 (3111 views)
Shortcut
Pointy BLUE hat. That is key to its description, and I find it notable and [In reply to] Can't Post

vexing that film related tie ins have taken to leaving that part out of the description for the sake of the faulty merchandise, or the film's capitulating way of wavering between showing it as light blue here but grey in other scenes, and a hybrid in still more.

In Reply To
for our greyish, pointy hat friend to deliver his EPIC monologue Angelic


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 7:17am

Post #29 of 86 (2996 views)
Shortcut
The problem Silverlode, is that while we learned and in the know can differnetiate and explain it away [In reply to] Can't Post

unread viewers will often not have the requisite backknowledge to do so. What many of them see is what is on the Surface: Gandalf supposedly being answerable to Galadriel AND Saruman, and taking a lot of instruction from Galadriel without seemingly imparting any advice in return.

In Reply To
a humble demeanor - which is a choice made by Gandalf about how he will present himself - with inferiority or powerlessness. Besides, despite the little bait-and-switch they did with Galadriel's first appearance, I thought it was quite obvious that Saruman was the one in charge, as head of the Istari - and so did he. What I saw was Gandalf being diplomatic and saying as little as possible when faced with an awkward surprise Council meeting he hadn't planned on or prepared for, and Galadriel picking up on it and trying to figure out what he's up to. And once she does, she's on his side. Elrond seems like the reluctant host. I have a mental image of Saruman showing up without warning and announcing to Elrond that he's called a meeting for tomorrow if not sooner and demanding to know what Elrond thinks he's doing assisting Gandalf and his rabble of dwarves to upset the status quo of Middle-earth. During the Council meeting, Elrond seems to me to be watching the proceedings from a deliberately neutral stance, and with a certain amount of ironical amusement at the wizards' conflict.

Here's the subtext I see in this situation:

Elrond: "You are not the only guardian of Middle-earth"
Subtext: "Saruman's all upset. You're in hot water, my friend! And if you bring him unexpectedly down on my head like this again, we will have words."

Gandalf: "Galadriel! I didn't know you'd be here! SO NICE to see you!"
Subtext: 'What's up with Galadriel, to make Elrond give me the stink-eye like that? Something's not right here. Be extra friendly."

Saruman: "I called this meeting!"
Subtext: "You're meddling again, and I'm going to show you who's boss!"

Gandalf: "Saruman!"
Subtext: "@(&!*#^! That explains Elrond. Must tread carefully."


For the rest of the meeting, Gandalf is feeling his way and trying to say as little as possible, while Galadriel digs to find out the truth, Saruman gives Gandalf a lecture on not rocking the boat (Saruman's boat most of all), and Elrond is not going to commit himself in any direction until he has all the facts - and can preferably avoid another annoying lecture from Saruman.

In the end, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and Gandalf's plans turn out quite well. He doesn't have to act large and in charge in order to be effective or powerful. He's both, even while his wisdom and power are cloaked and disguised in gray humility.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


emre43
Rohan

May 3 2013, 7:29am

Post #30 of 86 (2941 views)
Shortcut
The other Council members are merely speaking their minds. [In reply to] Can't Post

Would be little point in them being there if they were just going to sit idle and silent. Gandalf may be powerful but it doesn't mean he has infinite knowledge, lack of fear and cleanse Dol Guldur of all of its inhabitants single-handedly Bruce Willis style.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 3 2013, 7:42am

Post #31 of 86 (2979 views)
Shortcut
Well, then... [In reply to] Can't Post

it will be a chance for them to learn not to judge by appearances, won't it?

What I explained in my post was my reaction to the scene on first viewing, and it's only been strengthened by further watching. It's how I instinctively read the characters as acted out onscreen, not how I have envisioned them in my head from much reading (that's rather different, actually). The White Council meeting feels awkward (intentionally, I think) but it doesn't deter Gandalf from his plans or prevent the dwarves from carrying on with theirs, and it demonstrates that Galadriel has placed herself on Gandalf's team and that Saruman is going to be the roadblock to doing anything about the Necromancer. It's enough to be going on with, until we see how further evidence results in the attack on Dol Guldur in the next movie or perhaps two.

The next two movies will show Gandalf being proved right and his plans to take out the dragon and search out the truth of the Necromancer succeeding (even if the attack on Dol Guldur doesn't - and that fact sets up for the rise of Sauron). And then there's LOTR, where Gandalf fulfills his mission as the Enemy of Sauron and sails West in the company of Elrond and Galadriel, who show nothing but respect for him. If someone gets the wrong idea now, it will likely be corrected in the long run, and I'm content to let it play out because the overall outcome is assured. You see, I know how the story ends. Wink

Besides, if there's one thing I've learned in over a decade of fandom, it's that people will have as many different reactions to and interpretations of the same thing as you could possibly think of, and even some you couldn't. One can't control others' perceptions, and I think it's futile to try, or to worry overmuch about it. Some people pick up on subtext, others don't. It doesn't mean everything has to be spelled out for everyone in words of one syllable. How exactly could you make sure that everyone who watches the movie understands everything without spelling it out too plainly? I prefer a little ambiguity - even a little misdirection and the occasional smokescreen - to that, even if it means someone somewhere doesn't "get" it.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 7:58am

Post #32 of 86 (2954 views)
Shortcut
I very much agree with this... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I also doubt that a huge majority will judge from those scenes that Galadriel is superior. A lot actually will not even care and especially for them Gandalf will always remain "the guy who always safes the day and is right in the end" which sticks with the average moviegoer more than Galadriel ever will imho.

And those who get hooked up with Tolkien and lore will find out eventually because they want to learn more about those power statuses. I actually do like it that they never really adressed Gandalf's origins and that he remains rather ambigious. Because that is the way it was for most people in Middle-earth as well, while Galadriel was "that elf witch" people knew even less about and thus feared.

I am positive that Gandalf will only be carried and rescued by Galadriel (if it will play out that way) because he - once again - was the one willing to sacrifice and risk much more than for example Saruman in the battle against Evil.


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 3 2013, 8:43am

Post #33 of 86 (2946 views)
Shortcut
TTT ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Even in the Two Towers, Gandalf was subserviant to Saruman (up until his treachery was revealed) as the Head of their Order, and dutifully deferred to him.

Saruman was mightier than Gandalf (up until Gandalf came back from his defeat of the Balrog and his subsequent passing), and he did subdue Gandalf and make him a prisoner in Orthanc.

At the time of the the Quest for Erebor, Gandalf was the weakest member of the White Council.

Regardless of Sarumans haughty, some might say pompously know-it-all attitude, he was annoyed at Gandalf for several reasons ...

-He got the Ring of Fire, not Sauman
-He showed him up with the Morgul Blade and proved him wrong.
-Most importantly, he fears Gandalfs "meddling" in peoples affairs will interfere with his search for the One Ring.


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 8:48am

Post #34 of 86 (2945 views)
Shortcut
He wasn't the weakest... [In reply to] Can't Post

... in terms of pure power-potential. There, he was above Elrond and Galadriel.

But I wasn't arguing power dynamics between Saruman and Gandalf in my post, anyway, I just wanted to underline that it makes sense for him to get harmed in the DG battle as he usually risks much more for his mission than all the other Istari and also members of the White Council.


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 3 2013, 8:54am

Post #35 of 86 (2952 views)
Shortcut
Who was the weakest then in terms of power? [In reply to] Can't Post

I still argue it was Gandlaf.


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 9:15am

Post #36 of 86 (2949 views)
Shortcut
From the four we got in AUJ... [In reply to] Can't Post

... Elrond, since Galadriel is mentioned as the most powerful of the Elves left in Middle-earth. However, all of this is not 100% fixed, since Elrond seems to be the less-powerful Elf, however, he has the more powerful Ring (Vilya).

It is even more ambigious when it comes to influence over Middle-earth, which is, of course, also power-related. Here both Galadriel's and Elrond's doings and influence is very hard to judge, though Elrond seemed to have far stronger contact to the realms of men.

Gandalf and Saruman are Ainur, they are on a different level altogether, with Gandalf probably being one of the most humble among the WC members and probably the most self-conscious.


(This post was edited by Arannir on May 3 2013, 9:18am)


t_bomb
Registered User


May 3 2013, 1:56pm

Post #37 of 86 (2891 views)
Shortcut
When you've got a serious crush [In reply to] Can't Post

on someone, you give them all kinds of power. Maybe this observation has already been made, but I detected some slight lightness in Elrond's line when he indicates Galadriel as someone Gandalf must answer to. Whatever intimacy exists between G & G, Elrond knows about it. Gandalf is beholden to Galadriel -- not because of some "chain of command" -- but because he is very heartily smitten by her.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 2:19pm

Post #38 of 86 (2904 views)
Shortcut
Hack! [In reply to] Can't Post

Go away, go away! Tongue

Now, honestly, you might say that, but i suspect you dont keep eating the same blueberry pie all the time. You enjoy trying out new things. Tongue

Sinister71 : "Produce and Make the films themselves with the best interest of the author and reverence to the source material in mind when making them"

This should be any director's mantra or approach to any Tolkien matertial.

You are quite right.

The only chance for C.Tolkien to see a proper adaptation of Lotr, that i can imagine, at this point, would be a television adaptation. With a smaller budget, but more competent directing, writing and acting, and a usage of natural locations such as castles, mansions and far less CGI jiggery pockery...Like HBO's GOT does.

One can hope.Smile

Arannir : i must admit i have not read Children....( ducks for cover)

AinurOlorin : I just imagined 40 something Tolkien geek at a highway, dressed in the manner of the druids or wizards, with a long, wooden staff, shouting to the said merchandise trucks : YOUUUU SHALL NOOOOOOT PAAAAAASSSS!!

Wink

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 2:20pm

Post #39 of 86 (2883 views)
Shortcut
Although I think "crush" is the wrong word... [In reply to] Can't Post

... this - for me - is the explanation of the "it is not me you must answer to".

Elrond knows, the only one Gandalf may actually listen to without arguing all the time is Galadriel.

And his back-up is Saruman, kind of. His superior, which explains Gandalf's reaction ("Oh... this just got much more complicated.").


Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 2:25pm

Post #40 of 86 (2886 views)
Shortcut
I have to add to this... [In reply to] Can't Post

... that people over at the Board of Ice and Fire have the same troubles with the adaptation of the books than some people here do with Tolkien's books.

Things like "complete and useless deviation", "character assassination", "Would have never happened in the books" etc. can be read there all the time, really.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 2:31pm

Post #41 of 86 (2877 views)
Shortcut
Indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

i am a lurker there.

But they are very different materials. And the produced adaptation is mostly really, really good, and very unique, so its quite different from what jackson makes.

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 2:37pm

Post #42 of 86 (2887 views)
Shortcut
Well, I would argue... [In reply to] Can't Post

... both do very unique and very good things, but that is simply a matter of taste ;)

My problem wih GoT is a bit that I simply do not like were the books went after Volume 3, so I am a bit careful to get too invested in the series.


(This post was edited by Arannir on May 3 2013, 2:37pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


May 3 2013, 2:56pm

Post #43 of 86 (2867 views)
Shortcut
Gandalf the Greyinator! [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, I can just see The Greyinator at Moria: "Yippee ki-yay, flame of Udn!"

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 3 2013, 3:00pm)


Elwen
Lorien


May 3 2013, 3:33pm

Post #44 of 86 (2855 views)
Shortcut
Spot on... [In reply to] Can't Post

with your subtexts. The only one I saw a little differently was Elrond. I didn't see that last sentence. I'll have to watch that scene again now that you've mentioned it. I'm sure Elrond wouldn't appreciate Saruman showing up at his doorstep in a tizzy, so it's reasonable.

Before kids, exercising with LOTR meant listening to the soundtrack while I ran.

After kids, exercising with LOTR means having an all out dance party with the little ones to the "Break the Dam Release the River" disco mix form the Lego game.


Darkstone
Immortal


May 3 2013, 4:02pm

Post #45 of 86 (2850 views)
Shortcut
Exactly! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In the end, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and Gandalf's plans turn out quite well. He doesn't have to act large and in charge in order to be effective or powerful. He's both, even while his wisdom and power are cloaked and disguised in gray humility.


Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred, the deeper for being concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth, even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence."
-Unfinished Tales - The Hunt for the Ring

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



Darkstone
Immortal


May 3 2013, 4:08pm

Post #46 of 86 (2910 views)
Shortcut
Jackson just can't win. [In reply to] Can't Post

He either "doesn't trust the audience enough", or else "doesn't spell things out for them".

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



Elessar
Valinor


May 3 2013, 4:18pm

Post #47 of 86 (2873 views)
Shortcut
I don't like..... [In reply to] Can't Post

blueberry pie. Cool I try new things but I will say there are certain things I just can't get enough of so I keep going back for more of the same.




nhui06
Rivendell

May 3 2013, 4:32pm

Post #48 of 86 (2840 views)
Shortcut
Its all good to me [In reply to] Can't Post

I personally don't mind the humble and slightly goofy portrayal of Gandalf. Sort of like a grandpa-figure for the inhabitants of Middle-Earth. I think most casual film goers are not as interested in the politics or the background of Mithrandir.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 5:14pm

Post #49 of 86 (2853 views)
Shortcut
If you dont stop [In reply to] Can't Post

youre going to get sick of eating the same thing...Tongue

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Elessar
Valinor


May 3 2013, 5:19pm

Post #50 of 86 (2842 views)
Shortcut
Only if [In reply to] Can't Post

its the only thing I ever eat. I mix other stuff in to keep me looking forward to the next time.


First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.