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need help filling in some blanks please (First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc.)
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May 2 2013, 12:20am

Post #126 of 160 (1599 views)
Rings [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, everything about Hollin seems sad, doesn't it? I have trouble imagining it in its thriving days. But it was certainly a great racial interface for Elves and Dwarves, almost like Bree for Men and hobbits. I doubt the Dwarves gave away the mithril, but I'm sure they were happy to trade it. It says a lot about racial harmony that the Hollin Gate was open nearly all the time, had virtually no password when closed, and was made by both Dwarves and Elves (Celebrimbor himself drew the signs on them).

I looked it up now in LOTR "The Grey Havens": Nenya was mithril, and Vilya was gold. No mention of Gandalf's ring's mineral. I hope it wasn't made from leftover paperclips twisted together--good reason to keep it hidden. But I am sure your ring, my dear, is of purest mithril. It would be tacky to sell a gift on eBay even if it's worth more than the Shire, so don't be tempted. Then again, it's a ring, and rings tempt...

Pallando found Firenze? That explains it. Once you've been there, you forget everything else and don't want to leave. Can't blame him.


May 2 2013, 2:37am

Post #127 of 160 (1581 views)
Thanks for the Three info! [In reply to] Can't Post

I missed that...I just remember the gem colors so thank you for the details...one would guess Fire might be gold, for warmth? Of course like you say JRRT seemed to think in singular ways, so maybe they are all different, but not sure what else could be used - platinum? In Film I can't remember (I don't watch all the way to Grey Havens except maybe one a year, if that.) And I think even as you say - even trading unworked mithril would probably still be a big deal for the Dwarves.

Indeed of Pallando made it to Firenze I can only wonder what type of hat he moved on to then! (Pizza chef...something Harlequin-esque ...) The mind boggles.

I HOPE my ring is real Mithril CG - I could do with (and be completely tempted by) some arrested aging! (As if I'm not immature enough already...)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


May 2 2013, 3:04am

Post #128 of 160 (1604 views)
you know [In reply to] Can't Post

..."brethil" and "mithril" rhyme.

just an observation.

cheers --


aka. fili orc-enshield
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


May 2 2013, 8:47am

Post #129 of 160 (1581 views)
You know summink [In reply to] Can't Post

Elrond must be incredibly wise and forgiving not to hate the house of Feanor. Read the Sil many times and this thought only really struck me (that I can recall) when reading this thread.


May 2 2013, 12:21pm

Post #130 of 160 (1541 views)
Kilts on for Chapter 11 [In reply to] Can't Post

Discussion of Chapter 11of the sil has started - kilts on and join in!

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


May 2 2013, 1:28pm

Post #131 of 160 (1558 views)
Mitigating factors [In reply to] Can't Post

Celebrimbor renounced his father, and Maglor was good to Elrond. And they're all dead. Or by "the house" do you mean to include their followers, who would still be alive? I agree he and the rest of the survivors of Beleriand would have to be very forgiving after all the crimes of the Sons of Feanor.


May 2 2013, 2:54pm

Post #132 of 160 (1552 views)
looong replies - more about Círdan and the flooding, Celegorm, Caranthir and Curufin, Gil-galad, Dior's aging, etc. [In reply to] Can't Post

Remind me when they were attacked the first time?
I probably wasn't clear enough. If so, I apologise.
What I've meant was that many of the Elves at Sirion's Mouth were surviors of the attack on Doriath, so therefore were personally attacked twice. Which only goes to show that the attack on the refuge of the Sirion Mouths did not alienate that many of the Eldar from the Feanorians - as these probably hated them already.

Ahh, okay, I see what you meant now. That's right. Well, in that case they definitely wouldn't have had enough contact with them to hear about the fate of the twins - unless someone not allied with the Feanorians got wind of the twins being carried off by them and told everyone about it, OR they actually tried to use them somehow and made the knowledge public that way. Perhaps - and this is coming to me as I write it, so it may not be thought through - to
bargain for the Silmaril with them, not knowing Elwing had cast herself into the sea! Because honestly, how would they know that? She could have just fled with other Elves, who would be hiding her, so it may have seemed like it was worth a try to blackmail her using her sons. Then, other Elves would have told M&M that they had genuinely lost her, and so later when they see the Silmaril as the star Eärendil that's how they could be so certain as to what it was?

As for the Feanorians, of course they had followers, but if even Celegorm, Caranthir and Curufin died in the sack of Doriath, then I don't think an enormous amount of those would have survived. (The leader's always the last to die, right?)
Not an enormous amount, of course; but I still guess more than any other enclave of surviving Elves.
And what a thought, the one about the leaders! They usually are (supposed to, in heroic tales) in the front! Remember how Feanor died? Or even Orodreth? I am pretty sure that's what happened to the sons of Feanor.

I did actually think of that after I posted it, they don't really command from the rear so much as literally lead the armies into battle. But I'm thinking it's possible that CC&C kept themselves out of the fight a little more
. They were never THAT eager to actually bother with fulfilling the oath - certainly they kept it in mind, but as long as they had their own realms to rule they were quite content to sit it out. (There is a quote about that somewhere, I think in the chapter where it's explained how the different realms are distributed *eyes on bookshelf*) I guess Maedhros had already lost his hand and probably part of his sanity, might as well let him take the rest of the suffering, he's the eldest anyway... heh, I don't have a great opinion of those three. ;) Point being, I don't see them rushing into battle as happily as Feanor or Maedhros (or Fingolfin, or Fingon, for that matter) so they might survive a battle unless it's a terrible one in which also too many of their followers die to keep protecting them. Not sure I'm defending this point but it's worth considering that not all the Feanorians were as valiant as their dad. xD

also Ereinion, he wasn't that old with either parentage?
Not really; he was older than Dior was, when he married, had children, and claimed the throne of Doriath.
Unless being a half-human, his biology was very different from that of Elves, in which case you can't cite him as proof. I remember JRRT wrote about the aging of Elves, but I'm not sure whether he referred to Dior.

I kind of assume Dior must have aged more like a man (didn't Eärendil, too?) to be able to take up the throne at such a young age. He was 34... if he aged like an Elf he would have been barely more than a child?
Although, to think of him as a gilded child-monarch, a little like Tutankhamun, is quite intriguing. But as you said, he had a wife and kids, so... nah. lol
In any case... what was my original point with this? Oh yeah, Ereinion being raised during this confusing time while Elves were just hiding out at Sirion and Balar but didn't know what to do with themselves, and how that would shape him as a person. Leading to the other thing you replied to...

Also, there must have been very few Noldor left at the end of the First Age, so did Ereinion actually act upon his inherited position?
My answer would be no. But your idea is nicer, nd more heroic; perhaps it is what would really have "happened", had JRRT ever got around to write about this.

I feel like he may have thought "So I'm supposed to be king... but king of what?"
If that was the case, then Feanorians may have found the lack of an active king of the Noldor interesting, if anyone still had in mind to put Maedhros in that position. Assuming he'd want to, but I doubt he even wanted to go on LIVING at that point, let alone be king after all. But SOMEONE might have suggested it in absence of any action by Ereinion. And then when he got to be king in Lindon, AFTER the WoW of course, people would have been extremely relieved to finally be under an established leader again after so much time of uncertainty.
And I think he'd be very liberal (I imagine Círdan as a very liberal kind of person, who would have passed that attitude over to his charge) and try to do everything just right, to make up for the other flaws of his family that basically led to the destruction of Beleriand which (I think) he felt responsible for.

I suppose the Host of the Valar marched with the sea following them, sweeping everything evil (and everything else) away as they went, until they crossed the Blue Mountains, by which time they must have finally captured Melkor and Sauron and killed "all" their creatures; enough to stop flooding at least.
I am pretty sure it was not a premeditated action by the Host of the Valar. None of the chief Valar actually participated in this battle, and I'm sure Eonwe could not cause these tumults, far less control them at will. I suspect this was Morgoth's defense once his armed forces failed, rather than get out and fight. If so, it was probably counter-productive - many of his own armies must have perished (after all, they overran Beleriand), the non-winged dragons must have suffered, and Angband itself might have become isolated from the mainland. Powerful cowards may cause themselves more damage than their enemies ever could.

I see it a bit differently - my idea of it is that every few hundred miles, Eonwe would have called to Ulmo to move a little further forward, having had this instruction from the Valar before he even left for Middle Earth. I imagine it a little like the flooding of Isengard - with furnaces and volcanoes steaming as they are extinguished and Orcs and Wargs fleeing from the water and its cleansing, sacred power (as neither Sauron nor Melkor ever laid any claim on the seas, they were in a way the only untainted part of Middle Earth then.) It's like the Valar going "Well, Beleriand was nice, but now it's all screwed up, so let's forget about this part and start somewhere else. Let's pretend it never happened."

Were they packed into ships that rarely landed, because the shoreline kept changing all the time anyway?
I guess they just sailed East.

But many Elves stayed behind, such as Círdan's Teleri and many Noldor, Silvan and Nandor Elves that eventually stayed at the Grey Havens, Lindon, Hollin, Greenwood... after all, Gildor says he's descended from Finrod Felagund (and how I love the idea of Gildor being a Noldor/Nandor cross, I'm not sure why, he just comes across to me that way. And I think he and Glorfindel don't like each other. But that's random. ;)) So those Elves must have stayed somewhere, but 40-odd years isn't really a decent kind of time-frame. You wouldn't build up cities as you crossed Beleriand fleeing from the sea, nor would you travel all the way to Eregion in one go - you'd go slowly, trying to settle here and there, before getting flooded again and moving on. So I think some did that, living in encampments for decades, literally displaced people, and others (probably Círdan's people) would not have bothered even landing for long after it became clear that the water would just keep rising anyway, and get aboard their own ships or be accepted on the ships of the Valinor Teleri (being their kin - some might even know each other and get reunited after literally millions of years of being apart! That's interesting!)

Perhaps in the end, Eonwe would have revealed to all the Elves that the Valar's will had been done and they had now arrived in Eregion and they could live there if they wanted to, but also recommended coming back to Valinor. And then they might have built the Grey Havens out of what would previously have been a provisional harbour.

Bonus question: is there any chance Elrond and Elros actually met and spoke to Eärendil during or after the War of Wrath, or did he just pass over everyone in his ship like a thing of legend rather than someone who had once simply been "Ada"?
Hardly any chance. How would this come about?

I wrote about how I imagine this meeting somewhere else in this thread...

And that's assuming that he hovered over the entire army (which, I guess, is a combination of the Beleriand Elves - leftover Noldor, Cirdan's Teleri, Doriath, Gondolin and Nargothrond refugees, and any stray Nandor) with his ship, never touching the ground, but lighting the way for everyone and blinding the orcs, wolves, balrogs, etc. that crossed their path, thus making them easier to find and defeat. After the end of the war, I imagined this scene where the twins and Eonwe would stand on a mountaintop or cliff, and Earendil bring Vingilot down to them and talk to them that way - never actually touching the floor. (I think that's a pretty cool image, too, shiny ship with the sea in the background and bewildered twins.. *__*) Mostly he'd talk about the choice between Men and Elves they could make, but I like to think it could be emotional, too. Then Eonwe would be right there with them to advise them on what exactly their choice would entail, and to take back the message of what they chose to the Valar. I'd actually love to write that scene (and at the same time describe many Elves camping by the seashore and on countless ships, exhausted from decades of travelling and war and confused as to whether they'll have to move again) but I think I couldn't get the language right. v.v

(This post was edited by Altaira on Jun 7 2013, 4:00am)


May 2 2013, 2:56pm

Post #133 of 160 (1556 views)
I think he's too exasperated to bother hating anymore.. [In reply to] Can't Post



May 2 2013, 3:04pm

Post #134 of 160 (1569 views)
I'm quite proud of this thread now :D [In reply to] Can't Post



May 2 2013, 5:09pm

Post #135 of 160 (1531 views)
One point about leaders killing leaders [In reply to] Can't Post

There was direct combat between Dior and at least two of the CCC brothers, and Dior killed them before being killed. Not certain which brothers, but it's in The Ruin of Doriath chapter, and my book's nowhere nearby. I think that's done in the epic sense of leaders coming face to face to duel, like Ecthelion of the Fountain and Gothmog, or Gandalf vs the Witch-King at Minas Tirith's gate.

One other bit of evidence of leaders being in the forefront is Finrod hastening to the front in the Dagor Bragollach and getting cut off with his vanguard, needing rescue by Barahir.

If I remember right, real-life ancient generals used both options of fight-in-the-front or lead from behind. It seems both Hannibal and Alexander the Great varied between the two methods, though can't recall for certain.


May 2 2013, 5:22pm

Post #136 of 160 (1533 views)
The Dwarves sharing mithril with Celebrimbor to make Rings with makes me wonder if perhaps the Elves actually found mithril together with the Dwarves? Also: Arkenstone/Silmaril stuffs. [In reply to] Can't Post

Was Moria active way before the Elves ever came to Hollin...? I have absolutely zero sense of Dwarf history. But I do know that of course Celebrimbor and Narvi made the West gate, and Galadriel rather liked Moria, too, so perhaps Elves could have helped build some parts of it and been there when they found the mithril veins? Which would give them a little bit of a claim to it.

What I also find interesting is that upon re-reading FotR it seemed to me rather like the mithril strain sat right on top of the Balrog... and that again made me fantasize that maybe, just maybe, there was a Balrog sitting in the pit Maedhros cast himself into, it found the Silmaril and took it with it, fleeing to a less Vanyar-infested comfy hot place, ie, pits beneath Moria. There, Dwarves would have found it, and treasured it, and lost it in history, until finally it resurfaced with Thrain I, who claimed he "found" it...bit of a Middle Earth conspiracy there.

(This post was edited by erynion on May 2 2013, 5:25pm)

Grey Havens

May 2 2013, 6:26pm

Post #137 of 160 (1529 views)
Balar [In reply to] Can't Post

If I recall correctly, none of the Elves of Beleriand participated in the War of Wrath, and, despite all the confusion I referred to earlier, there seems to be a scenario where the Elves of Beleriand end up upon the Isle of Balar before the War of Wrath.

Tolkien did make a manuscript Tale of Years that was essentially a fair copy with fuller entries of an earlier pre-Lord of the Rings version. In this he wrote:

540 'The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge in the Isle of Balar.
547 The Host of Valar comes up out of the West (...)
550-597 The last war of the Elder Days, and the Great Battle, is begun. In this war Beleriand is broken and destroyed. Morgoth is at last utterly overcome (...) and the last two Silmarils are regained.
597 Maidros and Maglor, last surviving sons of Feanor, seize the Silmarils. (...)
600 The Elves and the Fathers of Men depart from Middle-earth and pass over Sea. (...)'

In version B however, the coming of the host of the Valar was moved to 545, and the dates of the last war of the Elder Days were changed to 545-587. Unfortunately, due to the complexities of the subsequent versions, it's hard to tell how these specific entries, if indeed abandoned, were going to read in revision.

Using 'what there is' however, it looks like we have 42 years with respect to the dates for the Last War.

(This post was edited by Elthir on May 2 2013, 6:27pm)


May 2 2013, 6:40pm

Post #138 of 160 (1515 views)
yep, those 42 years are what I wanted this thread to cover :3 [In reply to] Can't Post

But where's the info from saying no Beleriand Elves fought in the WoW? I was pretty sure Elrond and Elros did, and they wouldn't have done so if noone they knew fought as well. And surely most Elves would have wanted to help rid the world from evil?


May 2 2013, 6:40pm

Post #139 of 160 (1512 views)
Partial answer [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, Moria/Khazad-dum was definitely established in the First Age well before Celebrimbor arrived in Hollin, and its numbers grew as it absorbed Dwarves made homeless by the destruction of Beleriand.


May 2 2013, 6:44pm

Post #140 of 160 (1509 views)
In that case I wonder when the Eriador Dwarves learned of what happened in Doriath. [In reply to] Can't Post

During friendly dinner chit-chat with Hollin Elves? "By the way remember when your people killed our greatest king but I guess you didn't know that because we killed them before they ever made it home... oops."


May 2 2013, 6:50pm

Post #141 of 160 (1508 views)
It's pretty vague [In reply to] Can't Post

The style of the chapter veers back to "this is history as told by Elven witnesses," and the Beleriand Elves didn't seem to participate in the war and hence didn't witness anything, only passing on hearsay to the historian. That's the reason we only get sketchy battle details, and the war is over in a couple of paragraphs.

Though it would make sense that they participated. I'd think many Noldor would want to redeem themselves by fighting, and it was a battle against Morgoth, after all, so why wouldn't every surviving Elf and Man in Beleriand want to fight and exact revenge?


May 2 2013, 6:53pm

Post #142 of 160 (1542 views)
Good point [In reply to] Can't Post

I think two enlightened exemptions were made: the House of Durin wasn't the least bit involved in Doriath, and only Sindar were killed, not Noldor (which sounds callous, I know). Normally racial grudges don't take nuances into account, but it appears the Noldor/House of Durin friendship did.


May 2 2013, 6:57pm

Post #143 of 160 (1515 views)
Man did I miss a great thread! [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe sometime this week I'll have a few moments to catch up, but I doubt it given the volume of this thread. So, for now, I'll just say, "Great post, erynion!"

As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.


May 2 2013, 7:06pm

Post #144 of 160 (1496 views)
Absolutely. And also, Gil-galad has to earn his title :3 [In reply to] Can't Post

And there's no friggin' way Maedhros would pass up on an opportunity to fight Morgoth. I mean, he has nothing ELSE to live for by that point.


May 2 2013, 7:07pm

Post #145 of 160 (1466 views)
Well, if Finwe says so.. *bows* ^^ [In reply to] Can't Post



May 2 2013, 7:24pm

Post #146 of 160 (1523 views)
Yes, behold! [In reply to] Can't Post

Finwe has sent good tidings from the very halls of Mandos to bestow blessings on your thread, erynion. It doesn't get better than that. Smile


May 2 2013, 8:00pm

Post #147 of 160 (1505 views)
Brilliant, I am honoured! And while we're on the subject of Finwe... ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

Am I understanding correctly that ALL Elves that ever lived and died, with the exception of Míriel, will be re-embodied to live in Valinor eventually?
If so, won't Finwe be King of the Noldor again, rather than Finarfin?
And what of Feanor and his sons, will they be lost forever - or is their "everlasting darkness" the same place as the "void" Melkor is cast into? Meaning they would spend many ages fighting him in the darkness...


May 2 2013, 8:26pm

Post #148 of 160 (1484 views)
Limitations [In reply to] Can't Post

Good questions. I think Finwe could go back as long as Miriel did not. If she did, he'd have 2 wives, and Elves can't have multiple wives or divorce, so it wouldn't work either way. He offered to let Miriel go in his place, but she declined. I forget the reason he doesn't re-embody and go back to Indis.

Feanor is said to be stuck in Mandos until the last battle of Arda. His sons aren't under the same restriction and could conceivably come out, but maybe all the foul things they did under their Oath have won them a permanent place in Mandos.

But they're definitely not in the "everlasting darkness." Melkor was thrown outside the known world into the Void. Finwe and his family are in the halls of Mandos in Valinor. Playing bingo and golfing, I suppose, or more likely contemplating their sins.


May 2 2013, 8:47pm

Post #149 of 160 (1502 views)
I read that Finrod re-embodies "soon" after his death... what exactly does that mean? [In reply to] Can't Post

Does he get to greet Galadriel when she finally comes back to Valinor?
How about everyone else, how long to they have to wait, or do they even get to choose when to get reincarnated?
Is it said whether they get reborn literally, as in grow up again, or is it more like Glorfindel - just waking up again one day as you were the day you died?

Sorry, I'm actually bombarding all the question that come to my mind right now. Hope nobody minds. ^^


May 2 2013, 8:52pm

Post #150 of 160 (1452 views)
Can answer Finrod part [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, The Silmarillion says that he walks in Valinor with his father (Finarfin). So he would be there to welcome Galadriel home. I get the impression that because he was a decent person, he got to be reincarnated rather quickly, but just my impression. But I don't know the rules or how the rest works.

(This post was edited by CuriousG on May 2 2013, 8:52pm)

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