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need help filling in some blanks please (First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc.)
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Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 10:44pm

Post #101 of 160 (1352 views)
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I agree here CG on Elwing's leap [In reply to] Can't Post


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Somehow Elwing knew her sons were captured since she took that information with her to Earendil, and they feared their boys would be slain in captivity. Maybe it was their capture that prompted her to throw herself in the Sea.






Indeed the survivors of Sirion who join Gil-gilad are aware of the boys being taken, so I would guess Elwing did as well. I think the leap into the Sea was a culmination of her losing absolutely everything PLUS her desire that the sons of Feanor did not get the Silmaril. There is no text proof but I feel like *maybe* she was away from her sons for a minute, maybe leaving them with a caretaker, to either check on the Silmaril or to hide it, when they were taken; and after that, in sadness already because Earandil was not around and now here sons were taken (maybe she saw it?) she flung herself into the sea.

Kilt is stylin', BTW.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 30 2013, 10:45pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 10:51pm

Post #102 of 160 (1345 views)
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+exactly+ [In reply to] Can't Post

 
yes, exactly.

i shall wait until doriath is in ashes, and then we can use that light to illuminate melian.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 11:06pm

Post #103 of 160 (1339 views)
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Girdles done Ardamire! [In reply to] Can't Post


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I'm sure Brethil could get to work on girdles for those who need them, and I'll continue on with the kilts. We'll be the coolest board on this forum!




See? No worries. Magic Girdles for all.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 11:25pm

Post #104 of 160 (1359 views)
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Male and female roles in the mythos [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It seems that Melian is drawn to Elwe as much as or more so than he is to her. More so, it feels like.

How about Eowyn lusting after Aragorn?

That's all I can think of. Maybe Tolkien's men are all homely, and his women have good taste and high standards that can't be satisfied?

Ungoliant seemed to lust after Melkor toward the end, but not in the most romantic kind of way.




I think in JRRT's world men are most often the 'seekers' in relationships, as is befitting his concept of romance. In the above examples there is an aberration - Eowyn loving (won't say lusting here) and pursuing (in her quiet way) Aragorn is a function of her immaturity, her desire to escape an unhappy life, and her love for Faramir (who 'seeks' her) is her 'mature' and fully real love. I think it says something about Melian and Thingol here, because although her enchantment was probably overwhelming, he came to her, and took her hand...so he still has that 'seeker' role in the relationship although she certainly could have refused him (but didn't) so she had a very powerful, albeit passive role, in that union.

Yeah the lobster bib and the salt shaker would give Ungoliant away every time.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 12:27am

Post #105 of 160 (1377 views)
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Another triple digit thread in the Reading Room [In reply to] Can't Post

And rather shockingly, we haven't strayed too far from the OP on the El-boys. Do you suppose they wore kilts? That would help bring the discussions together. Did Maglor give them kilts, and thus win their love? Did Elwing jump in the Sea in a waterproof kilt, thinking it was a lifevest?

Also, on page 2 of the Rdg Rm, Aragalen added to the Bombadil thread, another triple digit one. That is, if anyone likes statistics more than kilts and ponies.


(This post was edited by CuriousG on May 1 2013, 12:27am)


Ardamírë
Valinor


May 1 2013, 2:11am

Post #106 of 160 (1326 views)
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I LOVE THIS!!!!!!!!! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Ardamírë
Valinor


May 1 2013, 2:13am

Post #107 of 160 (1362 views)
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Magic even? [In reply to] Can't Post

You've gone all out, Brethil! Keep up the good work. Maybe we need to start a production company for the official TORn clothing line Cool

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Brethil
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 3:13am

Post #108 of 160 (1325 views)
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Sweet! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
You've gone all out, Brethil! Keep up the good work. Maybe we need to start a production company for the official TORn clothing line Cool




But those gorgeous TORn kilts are gonna fly - you will have to do a lot of sheep-painting...! Wink (Maybe the Dwarves can get us some Mithril Kilt-pins..)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Ardamírë
Valinor


May 1 2013, 3:37am

Post #109 of 160 (1320 views)
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Your suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

are fantastic! This business will boom! Wink

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 1 2013, 4:01am

Post #110 of 160 (1329 views)
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"It's a dangerous businesses, erynion, posting in the RR. [In reply to] Can't Post

"You step on the discussion board and if you don't keep your wits about you, there's no knowing where the discussion might be swept off to."

Cool

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


erynion
Lorien

May 1 2013, 8:03am

Post #111 of 160 (1302 views)
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Melian's quite the "seeker" though [In reply to] Can't Post

At least, that's how I saw her. I'm not sure where it comes from, but I always imagine that Thingol spent every moment until his death in a bit of a trance, and that's where the original "dreamy" state of some Elves (Galadriel XD) comes from, because they were inspired by him. Not to say he wouldn't have fallen in love with Melian and she kept him under a spell against his will, but I think her power and love were so overwhelming even for a firstborn Elf that Thingol never really "recovered" from it. So I think for a newcomer wandering into Doriath and being brought before the king and queen, he would seem vague and aloof, with Melian doing all the talking. If I had to visualize it in a film, I'd give Thingol grey eyes upon first awakening and travelling, then upon meeting Melian they'd become starry and bluer, a sort of "enchanted" look, and during his death they would fade back to their original colour (albeit brightened by the Silmaril.) Point being, I think Melian is very much in charge of kindling that relationship. A very ...active woman. Cool


erynion
Lorien

May 1 2013, 8:03am

Post #112 of 160 (1274 views)
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That's fine - when old questions are answered, ask new ones. :3 [In reply to] Can't Post

 


erynion
Lorien

May 1 2013, 8:05am

Post #113 of 160 (1305 views)
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I think M&M participated in the War of Wrath, mainly because they would see the light of the Silmaril shining on Vingilot and would stay AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to that ship, thank you very much. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


sador
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 8:45am

Post #114 of 160 (1302 views)
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Turin, of course. [In reply to] Can't Post

Arguably, Luthien was also enchanted by Beren, and in her own way Erendis loved Aldarion.
If you want a male elf as subjectof admiration, you have to go to the movie-board. Or else to the Athrabeth, whein Aegnor is greatly loved by Andreth.

I suspect the reason Tolkien's males are usually not desrcibed as objects of love, is simply because he wrote so little from the female point of view. A shame, perhaps, but it is what it is.




And no, thank, I'm confortable enough in my suit and tie. If my wife ever catches me conversing with other females wearing a kilt, not even the excuse that I was just intimidating them would serve. Pirate


sador
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 9:19am

Post #115 of 160 (1304 views)
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A few comments [In reply to] Can't Post

What confuses me is that it's said they were raised by the Sons of Fëanor, but I don't quite understand how that works. Surely Maedhros and Maglor lived secluded from all the other Elves that were left in Middle Earth, seeing as they had repeatedly attacked them for the Silmarils.
Well, I am pretty sure that the Feanorians had many followers of their own, and seeing that their dwelling-place was never conquered and ransacked by the Enemy, they might actually have had the greatest following among the Elvish leaders of Beleriand (with the possible exceptiion of Cirdan).
The people in the Havens of Sirion were actually attacked twice - as many of them were actually fugitives from Doriath (and others of Gondolin).

None of the Elves at the Havens would have welcomed the Fëanorians or hear any news from them, so chances are they thought Elrond and Elros were dead.
I don't think so. They probably fought under Eonwe's banner (after all, if they weren't around, the Valinor Teleri wouldn't have refused to join in). They probably heard of them.

Gil-galad. It says that his father (be it Fingon or Orodreth) sent him to stay with Círdan to be safe
This works with the Fingon lineage, but not with the Orodreth one. Why would Orodreth send Gil-galad away, but keep Finduilas by his side? It's not as if she was expecting Gwindor to return (yes, I know the timeline is different, but even after the Bragollach she could have stayed with him) - and actually, Nargothrond survived the Nirnaeth, while the original Havens were sacked the year after it. Cirdan offered no better safety than Nargothrond did (but definitely more than Hithlum).
The fact that Tolkien considered at a time to keep the story of Gil-galad at Cirdan while making him Orodreth's son, is so flimsy it might actually have been one of the reasons Christopher preferred the Fingon parentage for the published Sil (he might have assumed it was evidently a not well thought-out idea).

Also, there must have been very few Noldor left at the end of the First Age, so did Ereinion actually act upon his inherited position?
My answer would be no. But your idea is nicer, nd more heroic; perhaps it is what would really have "happened", had JRRT ever got around to write about this.

I suppose the Host of the Valar marched with the sea following them, sweeping everything evil (and everything else) away as they went, until they crossed the Blue Mountains, by which time they must have finally captured Melkor and Sauron and killed "all" their creatures; enough to stop flooding at least.
I am pretty sure it was not a premeditated action by the Host of the Valar. None of the chief Valar actually participated in this battle, and I'm sure Eonwe could not cause these tumults, far less control them at will. I suspect this was Morgoth's defense once his armed forces failed, rather than get out and fight. If so, it was probably counter-productive - many of his own armies must have perished (after all, they overran Beleriand), the non-winged dragons must have suffered, and Angband itself might have become isolated from the mainland. Powerful cowards may cause themselves more damage than their enemies ever could.

Were they packed into ships that rarely landed, because the shoreline kept changing all the time anyway?
I guess they just sailed East.

Bonus question: is there any chance Elrond and Elros actually met and spoke to Eärendil during or after the War of Wrath, or did he just pass over everyone in his ship like a thing of legend rather than someone who had once simply been "Ada"?
Hardly any chance. How would this come about?




And another question: What of Celebrimbor?




erynion
Lorien

May 1 2013, 9:49am

Post #116 of 160 (1307 views)
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What about Celeborn as an object of love? [In reply to] Can't Post

He always seems very weak in every way next to Galadriel, and I would think that if she hadn't made a move on him, nothing would ever have happened.


erynion
Lorien

May 1 2013, 10:02am

Post #117 of 160 (1294 views)
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some replies :) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
What confuses me is that it's said they were raised by the Sons of Fëanor, but I don't quite understand how that works. Surely Maedhros and Maglor lived secluded from all the other Elves that were left in Middle Earth, seeing as they had repeatedly attacked them for the Silmarils.
Well, I am pretty sure that the Feanorians had many followers of their own, and seeing that their dwelling-place was never conquered and ransacked by the Enemy, they might actually have had the greatest following among the Elvish leaders of Beleriand (with the possible exceptiion of Cirdan).
The people in the Havens of Sirion were actually attacked twice - as many of them were actually fugitives from Doriath (and others of Gondolin).

Remind me when they were attacked the first time? I can only bring to mind the event that lost the twins and caused Elwing to flee at the moment. Which one am I missing?
I know they're fugitives from Gondolin/Doriath, that's why I said they'd worry about Elrond and Elros, because many would have known and been friends with their parents. ;__;
As for the Feanorians, of course they had followers, but if even Celegorm, Caranthir and Curufin died in the sack of Doriath, then I don't think an enormous amount of those would have survived. (The leader's always the last to die, right?) Also I'm pretty sure that after sacking hugely popular places and becoming ever more isolated from everyone and hopelessly desperate for the Silmarils, only the most absolutely loyal of Maedhros and Maglor's followers would have stayed with them. I think many may have deserted. Regardless, of course I don't think it was just Maedhros, Maglor, his wife and the twins living in a hut in the woods. ;) But even with followers around them it would be more of an isolated feeling than the gathering of refugees from everywhere that was happening at Sirion/Balar.


None of the Elves at the Havens would have welcomed the Fëanorians or hear any news from them, so chances are they thought Elrond and Elros were dead.
I don't think so. They probably fought under Eonwe's banner (after all, if they weren't around, the Valinor Teleri wouldn't have refused to join in). They probably heard of them.

I was still before the point when any ships arrived from Valinor, basically while Elros, Elrond - and also Ereinion, he wasn't that old with either parentage? - were growing up.
Because that seems a very empty time to me, a time of foreboding, perhaps, of waiting? It seems that after the sack of Sirion nothing really happened and the Elves didn't really know what to do with themselves, unable to stay and also unable (and, in some cases, unwilling) to go West.


I'll reply to the rest of your post later because I want to but I'm going to a medieval fair now *yay* ^^

But I second the question: what of poor little orphaned Celebrimbor?! Taken in by Maglor, too, or...?

Also, what of Eluréd and Elurin? Does anyone think they were taken in by animals and led to safety somehow, or did they really die in the forest? I like the idea of a memorial statue to them in Rivendell that gives Elrond the creeps on a regular basis.



sador
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 10:12am

Post #118 of 160 (1445 views)
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Don't underestimate Celeborn [In reply to] Can't Post

But of course, we do not know either way. Which reinforces my point: we hardly read anything about how females reacted to males, and I'm sure they occasionally did. Smile


I think I've omitted Rosie Cotton. In the published Lord of the Rings this is downplayed a bit, but in the drafts for a several-years-after last chapter, she and her husband talk a bit about their youthful love. I'm glad LotR ends the way it does, but I highly recommend people read the chapter about these projected last chapters in Sauron Defeated (HoME vol. IX).


sador
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 10:34am

Post #119 of 160 (1292 views)
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Three short notes: [In reply to] Can't Post

Remind me when they were attacked the first time?
I probably wasn't clear enough. If so, I apologise.
What I've meant was that many of the Elves at Sirion's Mouth were surviors of the attack on Doriath, so therefore were personally attacked twice. Which only goes to show that the attack on the refuge of the Sirion Mouths did not alienate that many of the Eldar from the Feanorians - as these probably hated them already.

As for the Feanorians, of course they had followers, but if even Celegorm, Caranthir and Curufin died in the sack of Doriath, then I don't think an enormous amount of those would have survived. (The leader's always the last to die, right?)
Not an enormous amount, of course; but I still guess more than any other enclave of surviving Elves.
And what a thought, the one about the leaders! They usually are (supposed to, in heroic tales) in the front! Remember how Feanor died? Or even Orodreth? I am pretty sure that's what happened to the sons of Feanor.

also Ereinion, he wasn't that old with either parentage?
Not really; he was older than Dior was, when he married, had children, and claimed the throne of Doriath.
Unless being a half-human, his biology was very different from that of Elves, in which case you can't cite him as proof. I remember JRRT wrote about the aging of Elves, but I'm not sure whether he referred to Dior.


Brethil
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 10:51am

Post #120 of 160 (1287 views)
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Very true in the sense of a power gradient! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
At least, that's how I saw her. I'm not sure where it comes from, but I always imagine that Thingol spent every moment until his death in a bit of a trance, and that's where the original "dreamy" state of some Elves (Galadriel XD) comes from, because they were inspired by him. Not to say he wouldn't have fallen in love with Melian and she kept him under a spell against his will, but I think her power and love were so overwhelming even for a firstborn Elf that Thingol never really "recovered" from it. So I think for a newcomer wandering into Doriath and being brought before the king and queen, he would seem vague and aloof, with Melian doing all the talking. If I had to visualize it in a film, I'd give Thingol grey eyes upon first awakening and travelling, then upon meeting Melian they'd become starry and bluer, a sort of "enchanted" look, and during his death they would fade back to their original colour (albeit brightened by the Silmaril.) Point being, I think Melian is very much in charge of kindling that relationship. A very ...active woman. Cool






Yes, Melian definitely has the power, as it were...and as I said certainly could have said NO but didn't! We will be covering her more in Mac's Sil chapter and I am looking forward to the insights. Thingol's decisions based on 'the widom of Melian' and the (I think) almost trance-like and obsessive need to hold on to what he has...well we all know it never leads to good with JRRT. It's a lopsided relationship at any rate!

**BTW have fun at the fair!!!** Smile

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on May 1 2013, 10:53am)


Brethil
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 10:56am

Post #121 of 160 (1295 views)
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Triple digits again...! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sweet isn't it? And this thread, like the road, might go on and on, it such a rich topic! (In was going to subject DDD, but that looks a bit suspect, doesn't it?)Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 10:58am

Post #122 of 160 (1286 views)
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Yeah, we got this! [In reply to] Can't Post


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are fantastic! This business will boom! Wink




Coolest Board indeed! **high five**

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 1:13pm

Post #123 of 160 (1265 views)
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Celebrimor...hmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, after his father rode away I guess he had the family bug for crafting and began to study fine smithing with the Noldor. We know he went with them after the destruction of Beleriand to Eregion. We read that the Noldor there finally established a colony, It sounds like they might have been neighbors to or mixed with displaced Teleri from both Doriath and from Lindon, who fled from the new shoreline in fear (but who ever after dream of the sea). With Khazad Dum nearby they had good relations with the Dwarves (Durin's House), so part of me thinks as one of their great smiths Celebrimor learned from them, especially since they become the Jewel Smiths and of course they would have gotten raw materials from the Dwarves and discussed their working. I can picture him working with the Dwarven smiths and learning how they work the jewels they mine; its a nice picture, and I would guess he was therefore an open-minded Noldor and not snotty like Caranthir. I wonder if they shared any secrets of Mithril with him?

These Elves must have been a sad people, I think, having survived so much.

Celebrimor was estranged and had rejected his father's deeds, and never took the Oath so it seems he was not under the shadow of the House of Feanor personally...and yet, as the maker of the Three Feanor's grandson.... the hand of Feanor is still in the mix, isn't it?

I found Celebrimor referenced twice in Letters, and I get a picture of far-off sadness:
Letter #96 (Where, among other topics, JRRT holds forth on the lost magic of Eden in the minds of today) About Celebrimor he says: "There are two quite diff. emotions: one that moves me supremely and I find small difficulty in evoking: the heart-racking sense of the vanished past... and the other the more 'ordinary' emotion, triumph, pathos, tragedy of the characters...A story must be told or there is no story, yet it is the untold stories that are the most moving. I think you are moved by Celebrimor because it conveys a sudden sense of untold stories: mountains seen far away, never to be climbed, distant trees ... never to be approached...(unless in Paradise...)
He also mentions in Letter #276 that Celebrimor's story really isn't a Sil tale (discusses 'backwriting' the Sil here, post LOTR, and firming up the confusing dates and connections in 1965.)

The lost magic of Eden - interesting lead-in to the Ringmaker. I see the fear, loss and masterful skills of Feanor extending into the future here, as the Exiles want to preserve Arda in a manner closest to what they lost by leaving the Blessed Realm, contrary to the plan of Eru which calls for its inevitable change and for the dominion of Men. And Celebrimor's story is meant to be a symbol, I think, of the untold vistas that JRRT refers to, as the rings hold back time but not indefinitely. And like the Biblical Fall the fall of the Elves started with a lack of faith - the Valar summoning the Elves, taking them from Arda and their place in Eru's plan.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 11:40pm

Post #124 of 160 (1271 views)
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Celebrimbor does seem cursed [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if not by the Oath, it seems nothing goes right for him. He's a minor hero to me because he dared to repudiate his father. If those Sons of Feanor thought for themselves instead of behaving like robots, the world would have been a better place. But Hollin doesn't last very long and never seems to reach the heights of Gondolin or Nargothrond, and the Rings of Power backfire on him.

I would guess the Dwarves taught him about mithril since Galadriel's ring is made from it, which leaves me wondering if the other rings were as well. Wouldn't you make them out of the best minerals you could find in Middle-earth? Unless one was silver and the other was gold, which Tolkien might like since he tended to think in categories.


Quote
yet it is the untold stories that are the most moving.

Yes, JRR, that's why we obsess over the minor characters and the unsaid plot points of the major characters. And what the heck happened to those Blue Wizards?!


Brethil
Half-elven


May 1 2013, 11:56pm

Post #125 of 160 (1260 views)
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True - I remember Legolas speaking of Hollin... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Even if not by the Oath, it seems nothing goes right for him. He's a minor hero to me because he dared to repudiate his father. If those Sons of Feanor thought for themselves instead of behaving like robots, the world would have been a better place. But Hollin doesn't last very long and never seems to reach the heights of Gondolin or Nargothrond, and the Rings of Power backfire on him.

I would guess the Dwarves taught him about mithril since Galadriel's ring is made from it, which leaves me wondering if the other rings were as well. Wouldn't you make them out of the best minerals you could find in Middle-earth? Unless one was silver and the other was gold, which Tolkien might like since he tended to think in categories.


Quote
yet it is the untold stories that are the most moving.

Yes, JRR, that's why we obsess over the minor characters and the unsaid plot points of the major characters. And what the heck happened to those Blue Wizards?!







...with a lot of sadness - don't the stones speak to him: "deep they delved us, fair they built us, but they are gone - they sought the Havens long ago" (memory, so quote might be a bit off!!!) when they go through silent Hollin. I think it really was a bit of a sad place, even in the relatively finest day of the Noldor colony, because they were such a battered set of survivors.

Nenya is mithril? How cool! I didn't know (actually I have a lovely Nenya, Christmas gift, but Alas! I fear its just a replica...!) I just spent a while looking, but the only details I can find are where he gives the gem colors. Mithril would make perfect sense - that says something VERY cool about the openness of the Dwarves with their Truesilver, as well as Celebrimor's willingness to learn from them.

OK, here's a thought...in this vale of sadness, with Elves that have suffered and had loss - THAT'S where the best cultural friendship of Elves and Dwarves happens...hmmmm!!!

Blue wizards are still a milk-carton thing...went East in the best I can ever find (and I can only name one, Pallando, which sounds highly Renaissance Firenze to me. Maybe he found Italy?)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on May 2 2013, 12:00am)

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