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need help filling in some blanks please (First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc.)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 7:36pm

Post #76 of 160 (1425 views)
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Love. [In reply to] Can't Post


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i have always wondered what propelled elros to take up the fate of the edain. he wasn't raised in its culture, didn't have as many key edain figures in his life as elven (did he have any? any close ones?), and he (presumably) had exceedingly close ties with his twin brother, elrond (common with twins), which would have been heightened by the fact that they had lost their parents and had no other immediate family members.


It made the decision for Arwen, why not Elros? We can only regret that no one seems to have written the story...








Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 7:45pm

Post #77 of 160 (1421 views)
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Excellent point Phantom [In reply to] Can't Post


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The messengers who meet Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Antanamir later on state that the Elves should envy Men for having the Gift of true death. Maybe Elros saw that as a chance to really leave the world?




Completely true here, and JRRT reiterates it in Letters quite frequently, about the levels of envy between all the races relative to their life-span and afterlife 'gifts'. The Gift was regarded as just that until Morgoth did his work in sowing unrest among Men and convincing them it was a short-changing. I like what Letter #131 has to say: "Since the point of view of the whole cycle is the Elvish, mortality is not explained mythically: it is a mystery of God of which no more is known than that 'what God has purpose for Men is hidden: a grief and envy to the immortal Elves."

So I think your take on Elros' desire may be perfectly correct, as the Doom is seen by the Elves as a mysterious 'out' and that mystery grieves them, especially with aging and 'fading' as they become tired of the cycles of the world. In initial concept I wonder if the point of the choice was a little different, as I found the passage in Shaping of Middle Earth that discusses the evolution of Elros and of the choice of the half-kin...initially it seems to have been directed at choosing to go into the West versus staying in Arda; the clear choice of mortality vs immortality seems to have come later, making the choice a much more sweeping decision potentially separating families and loved ones forever, and a much more critical philosophical and spiritual underlie to the story.

In Arda Reconstructed Voronwe (Douglas Kane) points out that the sentence in which Earandil acknowledges and already understands that he risked 'the doom of death' and implying his mortality as a nature (by not being full Elven) versus a choice for setting foot on the immortal shore has been removed. We see it next during the debate between Manwe and Ulmo, when it is confirmed that the fate of a Man stepping onto the shore would be death (but obviously not an 'automatic' or 'magical' one as it didn't happen: thus it seems it would have to be an act of the Valar carried out in judgment), and the doom of Manwe's decides Earandil's fate and defines the choice of half-kin. Having the knowledge that he risked death in advance for being mortal-kind, not just violating the Ban as part Noldor, makes Earandil even braver I think for stepping ashore and carrying his message.
JRRT defines men's fate as 'Hope without guarantees' (Letter #181) and in this context Earandil is heroically seeking exactly that - hope without guarantee.

Is that perhaps what inspires the choice in the first place? We have Ulmo fighting for him - but I'm sure (changed from maybe here) that bravery (which we don't get the full flavor of) is what sways Manwe to create the choice for the children of Earandil...

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 30 2013, 7:53pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 8:06pm

Post #78 of 160 (1427 views)
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Cirdan not having a son... [In reply to] Can't Post

CG is that a boxers versus briefs question?



(And get that kilt on sailor - rules are rules!)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 30 2013, 8:07pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 8:55pm

Post #79 of 160 (1389 views)
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Love the kilt, but [In reply to] Can't Post

Love the kilt, but am too fat to wear it. Must find my Girdle of Melian! Why is that so hard to find? Smile

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 30 2013, 9:01pm)


elaen32
Gondor

Apr 30 2013, 8:59pm

Post #80 of 160 (1402 views)
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Plot device [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with this and I have to say that, I too had always seen the choices of Elros and Elrond as being more plot driven by anything else. Admittedly, I have not read the HoME books regarding this, but there is not a great deal of further explanation of this elsewhere. There is certainly family precedence for choosing to be mortal, but the bond between the twins is likely to have been very strong and parting very difficult. I do not know of anywhere that Tolkien acknowledges this and I do wonder how much he thought about this

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Ardamķrė
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 9:05pm

Post #81 of 160 (1384 views)
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Bahahaha lovely! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure Brethil could get to work on girdles for those who need them, and I'll continue on with the kilts. We'll be the coolest board on this forum!

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


elaen32
Gondor

Apr 30 2013, 9:09pm

Post #82 of 160 (1388 views)
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What has it got in its sporranses, precious?// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 9:11pm

Post #83 of 160 (1389 views)
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I should have said "Malickfan"--oops [In reply to] Can't Post

Malickfan is our resident expert on Cirdan and wrote a voluminous and masterly treatise on why he's the greatest of Tolkien's characters. So I thought he'd know why he was childless; I got the name wrong from Macfalk. It's like all those "F" names in The Sil I can't keep straight either.

At this point, I won't speculate on whether Malickfan is wearing clothing of any kind, but if he needs a kilt, I have a spare one to loan him. Just don't tell Ardamire I'm a re-gifter.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 9:15pm

Post #84 of 160 (1408 views)
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It's buried between the Bra of Ungoliant and Trousers of Tulkas. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 9:21pm

Post #85 of 160 (1362 views)
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Is Cirdan even married? Or still waiting for "a cirdan someone" perhaps?// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Apr 30 2013, 9:24pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 9:23pm

Post #86 of 160 (1321 views)
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Thanks- sorted now & will try to be erudite. Or even Eru-dite, which would be a fine thing in Middle-earth! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 9:25pm

Post #87 of 160 (1355 views)
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You are on a roll with these! :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ardamķrė
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 9:33pm

Post #88 of 160 (1374 views)
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Eek! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure! What has it gotses??

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Ardamķrė
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 9:35pm

Post #89 of 160 (1356 views)
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That's it! [In reply to] Can't Post

After all this lack of appreciation, I won't be knitting you any stockings for Christmas like I will for everyone else! You'll be sorry Tongue

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 9:48pm

Post #90 of 160 (1353 views)
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oh, OH! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
.... you earn +total+ points for this, nowimė...


Quote
[nowimė] Is Cirdan even married? Or still waiting for "a cirdan someone" perhaps?// [/nowimė]



... +brilliant+!


(unsheathes her sword in salute, and points it to the vault of the sky)

cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 9:50pm

Post #91 of 160 (1357 views)
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that's probably truefor Tolkien's motives, but I like to think of stories from their characters' points of view :) [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 9:54pm

Post #92 of 160 (1369 views)
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i actually am in agreement... [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote
[curiousg] Addressing the larger debate, I'm a bit torn in views of the motivation, if any, for the brothers to choose their racial fates, and if it wasn't just plot-driven. Tolkien takes twins and makes one the king of Numenor, the other a very prominent leader of the Eldar in the 2nd and 3rd Ages. To me it seems he wanted to show that racial split and the concrete ability to choose one's spiritual destiny, and also provide Men with some high-quality DNA from Luthien and others so that the royal house of the Dunedain would have a great pedigree. It also sets up the later grievance and conflict in Numenor when the Kings can say Elros didn't choose for them and they want to make their own choice. Who else but Elros could have started the Ball of Fate rolling?

When Arwen first meets Aragorn and learns who he is, she tells him "we are kin from afar." I think that's important in showing that the two are reuniting the long-sundered lineages of the El-brothers. That's why I see Elros' choice as having little to do with his character and mostly about setting up the plot for this Great Scheme of where the bloodlines go and the conflicts and reunions that are to come. [/curiousg]



i'm actually in agreement with this assessment, curiousg... practically, i think tolkien is more focused (especially in the sil) with overarching history and races and such.

... but ....

it is in my nature to look at these things through this lens, and i also think it makes a lot of sense (to look at them this way). we're dealing with people who have feelings... sometimes about things (hullo, feanor!) and sometimes about people (lots of other folks).

i think tolkien often neglects this aspect because he's more interested in the history and the universe-making. but if we are to take an elros as a real individual and not just a name, then i think it's worth looking at what could have been his personal motiviations, in the context of his relationships with others.

so, this is what i do. today, thinking that way, elros opened up for me as he never has in the past.


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 10:02pm

Post #93 of 160 (1357 views)
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Well I love it, and even found a pic... [In reply to] Can't Post

...of your artfully dyed sheep!
C'mon folks - look at this artistry!
And for the record, in my temporal reality, you are wearin' 'em, so there ya go CG and NoWiz! (**Bang**! Kilt's ON!)




I even see my Black watch special in there...Smile

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


dik-dik
Lorien


Apr 30 2013, 10:03pm

Post #94 of 160 (1336 views)
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might be either that... [In reply to] Can't Post

... or Ossiriand as mentioned in the Silmarillion. It would actually make more sense to me for them to be forced to abandon even Amon Ereb and hide in the woods of Ossiriand before the War of Wrath. I fancy Amon Ereb was kind of conspicuous, and seeing it would be the only big (at least, big enough to be named in maps) settlement in inland Beleriand after the Havens fell, I should imagine Morgoth's servants would head over there. Maybe the Sons of Feanor had sufficient numbers to man the hill before the Third Kinslaying, but I'm not too sure about their situation after Sirion.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 10:04pm

Post #95 of 160 (1353 views)
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i +love+ this idea! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote
[elizabeth] love. It made the decision for Arwen, why not Elros? We can only regret that no one seems to have written the story... [/elizabeth]


elizabeth, i +love+ this idea.

on a number of levels.

1. that love compels, and is repeatedly shown to be a powerful maker of epic histories as well as personal ones.

2. that a male elf (well, half-elf) would find love with a female member of the edain.

one of the disappointments to me in tolkien's works is that these types of relationships always seem to have the female as being the love object on the pedestal.

beren, aspires to luthien.
tuor, to idril.
aragorn, to arwen.

when it's the other way around (and a lot of examples don't come easily to mind), like with aegnor and andreth, it goes nowhere.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 30 2013, 10:04pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 10:19pm

Post #96 of 160 (1391 views)
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Sparse examples of male as object of love interest [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems that Melian is drawn to Elwe as much as or more so than he is to her. More so, it feels like.

How about Eowyn lusting after Aragorn?

That's all I can think of. Maybe Tolkien's men are all homely, and his women have good taste and high standards that can't be satisfied?

Ungoliant seemed to lust after Melkor toward the end, but not in the most romantic kind of way.


Maciliel
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 10:25pm

Post #97 of 160 (1421 views)
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it's really not the love-interest aspect [In reply to] Can't Post

 
... that i'm highlighting here...

it's that the female is of some sort of higher stature (by being an elf, by being a princess, what have you), and a male of "lesser" stature must woo/win her.

so we've got mortal beren, who dares fall in love with luthien. elf. princess.

the races are supposed to be equal, but in practice it doesn't seem to play out that way.

it would seem more like real romance and less like author invention if we had a few going the other way. because, in real life, this happens.

(and we really need a thread on melian -- as you may have noted from my original melian post on the sil thread. : ) )

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 10:31pm

Post #98 of 160 (1306 views)
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Was thinking more of whether Cirdan had boxer or briefs... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but that's besides the point....

As far as the Choice of the brothers being plot driven: I found this in Letter #257: "The passage in ch iii (TH) relating him to the Half-elven of the mythology was a fortunate accident, due to the difficulty of constantly inventing good names for new characters. I gave him the name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology (Elros and Elrond the two sons of Earandil) I made him half-elven. Only in The Lord was he identified with the son of Earandil, and so the great-grandson of Luthien and Beren, a great power and a Ringholder."

It sounds like here JRRT is saying that the sons existed already, but that the Choice perhaps grew out of the 'fortunate accident' of using the name of Elrond with the half-elven appellation. In Letter #153 "The entering of Men into the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of the Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves." So the plan was there all along, but if indeed Elrond and Elros become the fulcrum for the entrance of Elven blood into human lines, the device must have been worked into the tale after The Hobbit committed him to the name, and he decided to make use of it in LOTR even though its mythological existence was only in the unpublished Sil. at that point.

I do agree with Mac in the sense that even though there might be a utilitarian 'frame' for building the event, regardless because of the complexity of the situation and consistency with JRRT's other ideas even a glimpse of the tale gives us insights into the players concerned.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 10:34pm

Post #99 of 160 (1330 views)
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Ossiriand? [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember The Silmarillion referring to the Sons of Feanor being in Ossiriand, but wouldn't they have no welcome there after destroying Doriath? It seems news of their kindred's slaughter would reach Ossiriand at some point.

I agree Amon Ereb was a sitting duck for attack, but I wonder if Morgoth didn't care since he'd conquered everything else and it wasn't important. It's a mystery where they went, though it's mentioned that they were scattered and wandering and only came together for the new Kinslayings. Hiding out in Taur-im-Duinath would make sense if it were at all inhabitable.

Somehow Elwing knew her sons were captured since she took that information with her to Earendil, and they feared their boys would be slain in captivity. Maybe it was their capture that prompted her to throw herself in the Sea.

Anyway, thanks for your observations. I wish the Sons of Feanor wore GPS trackers so we'd know where they went. Somehow they show up in public after the War of Wrath is over, which makes me wonder if they participated in it or merely came out of hiding at the end. It seems they would have been pariahs and no one would to fight next to them during the War (and people would rather execute them), but who knows.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 10:41pm

Post #100 of 160 (1305 views)
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Melian? Who's Melian? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was thinking we might tackle her when we get to The Ruin of Doriath, and then we could take into account all her actions then and before. It's a biggie to me that she leaves Doriath open to all its enemies as the grieving widow. "See ya! I hope that war thing works out for you now that I've let defenses down." Could you wait for that chapter? Not that you have to, of course, it just seems a natural part of that chapter discussion. And there's quite a bit to say about her in the Luthien chapter. But I wouldn't hold you back, even with my new kilt on.

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