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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What does a “sequel” mean?
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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Dec 19 2007, 12:55pm

Post #26 of 70 (4202 views)
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I can't WAIT to see what they do with this! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm seriously excited at the prospect of Philippa, Fran and Peter creating this bridge! It's thrilling to me!

There's Gollum's story of finally leaving the mountain and seeking out the Ring and Baggins;
Gandalf's undisclosed works that keep him busy and build to this final part of his mission in Middle-earth;
his discovery and companionship with Aragorn (learning his true identity, mentoring?, etc.);
Arwen and Aragorn's story;
Balin going to Moria;
Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf's growing concern with Sauron's move from Mirkwood
Saruman's fall from grace beginning (helping us to understand his part in LotR);
Wormtongue in league with Saruman and how he fell and began manipulating his way into Theoden's confidence and torment;
relationship between Theodred, Eowyn and Eomer
Denethor's control of Gondor and his sons;
the Rangers patrolling the Shire (for Gandalf?);
Frodo's life and how he came to be with Bilbo (paramount to the story, imho);
his friendship and the story of Sam (as well as Merry & Pippin);
Lobelia and Lotho's antagonism and angst at the auction when Bilbo returns, upon Frodo's adoption, and up to Bilbo leaving (explaining why he hides from them in Bag End and the Party);
Haldir's role at protecting Lorien's borders
Legolas and Gimli's rise to representing their fathers
explanations as to why the dwarves and elves distrust each other so much...

...oh, there's lots to explore!!! *twitch*



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Corvar
PTB


Dec 19 2007, 1:27pm

Post #27 of 70 (4061 views)
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Director/s [In reply to] Can't Post

They haven't even committed to a single director, and there have been vague rumors that possibly Jackson would direct one of the films. How well would it work to have two different directors shooting pretty much the same story at the same time with the same actors? It would be disaster. That IMO lends weight to the bridge idea, which would focus on different characters, reducing some of the conflicts in scheduling.

As to why shoot both of them at the same time? Hype? Some cost benefits? Being able to more closely bond them in the box office, because an unknown sequel in the box office a couple of years from The Hobbit might not get a lot of attention.


Corvar
PTB


Dec 19 2007, 1:32pm

Post #28 of 70 (4220 views)
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Possibly correct [In reply to] Can't Post

If our supposition is correct, fan fiction wouldn't be a completely bad term, just as fan fiction wouldn't be a bad description of some of the changes made in the trilogy. *shrugs*

Another way to think about this, where would the first part of The Hobbit end if it was split? The escape from the mountain with Bilbo thought dead? And as many people have brought up, is there enough material in The Hobbit to warrant 2 movies? Especially if off-page action isn't added in. Even if they just dealt with The White Council and the expultion of the Necromancer...


GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea


Dec 19 2007, 2:03pm

Post #29 of 70 (4059 views)
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It looks like there are too many stories with not enough substance. [In reply to] Can't Post

Heck, if they're going with the bridge concept, they might as well made the second movie as twenty short films. :o/

~~~~~~~~

Formerly known as GaladrielTX


_V_
Lorien


Dec 19 2007, 3:20pm

Post #30 of 70 (3952 views)
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more [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
* The White Council meets to discuss The Necromancer (aka Sauron)
* The White Council (including Saruman and Gandalf) attack The Necromancer’s stronghold at Dol Guldur. This is to prevent Sauron from searching the river for the Ring. Sauron abandons Dol Guldur and takes up residence in Mordor.
* Gollum leaves the mountain, searching for the “thief” Baggins.
* Sauron declared himself openly, starting to gather power to Mordor.
* Aragorn searches the wilds for Gollum.
* Aragorn’s engagement to Arwen.
* Frodo’s birth.



*Showing Theoden's wife dying in childbirth of Theodred, then
*Eomund dying fighting on the marches and his wife dying of grief thus
*A young ~10 year old boy and his 3 year old sister are seen moving in to Meduseld; young Eomer and Eowyn
*More of Eomer and Eowyn and even Theodred as they grow up, Theoden descending into grief, aided by Wormtongue's manipulations.
*Show Aragorn become Thorongil and defeating the Corsairs, becoming the rival of young Denethor
*Show young Boromir and Faramir's rise
*Show all the way up to the fall of Osgiliath and Boromir's counteroffensive to retake the west bank of the city, destroying the bridge in the process; essentially leading all the way up to right before the flashback in Two Towers.
*Yes, show the growing power of Mordor
*Make it a point to have a Galadriel and Arwen scene at some point to actually say on screen "she's her grandmother, her mother is dead" etc. (organically work this in somehow)
*Show how Bilbo was considered a weirdo by the older Hobbits but they younger HObbits thought his stories were amazing, and young 10 year old Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin.
*Show how Frodo gets orphaned and he moves in with Bilbo
*A significant chunk of the story will be "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen"; Aragorn's rise from orphaned heir of the Dunedain and Elrond's ward, to being told his identity when he turned 20, meeting Arwen, gradually wandering Middle-earth and becoming a great warrior and traveller, meeting Gandalf, becoming Thorongil in Gondor, and finally hunting Gollum for Gandalf and then secretly guarding the outskirts of the shire.
*If at all possible, try to do a flashback to events in the PAST of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, etc. explaining what happened to Moria
*Show Balin leave for Moria,, possibly also show his dwarves getting wiped out



(This post was edited by Draug the Unspeakably Violent on Dec 19 2007, 3:23pm)


merklynn
Lorien

Dec 19 2007, 3:21pm

Post #31 of 70 (4169 views)
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About this "bridge" movie [In reply to] Can't Post

I know this is a matter of opinion, but the movies are just movies, and the books will always be the books. In 20 or 30 years time there could be new versions of LOTR and The Hobbit being made. My point is, so what if the "Bridge" is essentially a fan fiction? If Jackson, Walsh and Boyens are handling it, then its one fan fiction I'd love to see realizedon the big screen. I loved seeing this team, including McKellen, Mortenssen, and Lee, with WETA, among others bringing to life one of the only and certainly the best fantasy movie series of all time.

The fantasy movie genre has never had any serious/drama movies made that have done it any credit. I hoped that the LOTR films would be the injection in the arm that the genre needed. For decades we have been getting B-movie after be B-movie, even post Jackson's LOTR films. However, we can have faith at least in the fact that Jackson brings an understanding and a respect for the fantasy genre, as well as a historical quality to the films. Under his control, we can expect the Hobbit and it's bridge sequel will be top notch.

I also don't think it's fair to judge the movies entirely based upon how many minor characters or scenes were omitted unless it fundamentally alters the message and themes of the author. The existing LOTR trilogy was highly entertaining, took a few liberties here and there, but overall, those liberties are nowhere near as bad as is the usual standard for Hollywood butcherization. I wish the majority of fans out there (for whatever fandom) would be able to look at the bigger picture when it comes to movie adaptations. It's not a policy of "it could be so much worse" that I'm endorsing, but rather that these films are just interpretations, as is anything not written by the original author.

So why not take pleasure in the possibility that this "bridge" movie may in fact be only as canon as a fan fiction, and enjoy the further adventures of the characters such as Gandalf, Aragorn, Arwen, (as well as seeing more of Elrond, Saruman, Galadriel, Bilbo etc)? The purpose of these films is to entertain. I know that I would love to see a TV mini series produced by Jackson which told all the smaller stories from the Appendices, The Silmarillion, and The Unfinished Tales. At least for this bridge there is material to draw from.

I'm really excited about the possibilities of tales such as the White Council / Necromancer being shown and explored and I welcome new and unheard of adventures following Aragorn and others. It's a world that I am really glad PJ will be able to take us back into.

Oh, and "Hi" by the way. :-)


Curious
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 3:22pm

Post #32 of 70 (4024 views)
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You make a good case for a broader approach. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Although tying all those stories together might be a challenge. I still think Aragorn's story presents the most potential, but since he and Gandalf both travel so much, they could also touch base with the various other strands of the story.


_V_
Lorien


Dec 19 2007, 3:24pm

Post #33 of 70 (4019 views)
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hey [In reply to] Can't Post

Dude it's not fan-fiction its using material from the book appendixes which many of us (including mytself) were actually DEMANDING to be adapted.


_V_
Lorien


Dec 19 2007, 3:25pm

Post #34 of 70 (3920 views)
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linker [In reply to] Can't Post

yes, the linker would be Gandalf travelling around (though not in every strand) and then we'd see Aragorn travelling through Rohan with Thengel at some point (seeing a child Theoden) as a linker to Rohan....and then near the end we see Eomund die and an orphaned Eomer and Eowyn moving in to Meduseld.


merklynn
Lorien

Dec 19 2007, 3:31pm

Post #35 of 70 (3939 views)
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Fan fic [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the fan fiction reference is in response to people looking upon the need for some new material as well as the liberties that may be necessary for a "bridge" sequel. I'm just arguing that for those people that want to look on it as being no more canon than fan fic, then they should also watch the movie and enjoy it as a fan fic too, rather than damn the film for not following Tolkien to the letter.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Dec 19 2007, 3:55pm

Post #36 of 70 (3887 views)
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Hello! [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have to agree with you about the adaptation stuff; it is just an adaptation.

But my biggest fear is that, even if they create a movie made of fan fiction, that it will not be good fan fiction. Hah, they should employ some of the best fan fiction writers to help them out ;)

I am just afraid that LOTR will lose a lot of its credibility if the sequel to the Hobbit turns out to be a flop. That would be most devastating.

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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Dec 19 2007, 4:05pm

Post #37 of 70 (4067 views)
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I'm thinking either Thorongil or Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that it is a great possibility that they will push the events of Dol Guldur forward to the last White Council meeting in 2953, when Aragorn is 22. They could have a great conflict there, and they could easily involve him, Arwen, and even Legolas in the film.

If not that, I imagine the tale starring both Gandalf and Aragorn; an entertwined tale similar to what they did with ROTK and TTT. Aragorn would do Thorongil, Arwen at Cerin Amroth (a scene they have already shot, I know), and Aragorn hunting Gollum with Gandalf. Who knows, maybe we'll even see some of Aragorn's people. Gandalf would meet up with Bilbo, start to suspect the One Ring, maybe meet a young Frodo when Bilbo adopts him... and then end it with him hunting for Gollum with Aragorn. But of course, this film wouldn't add much of a climax, so I'm thinking that the Dol Guldur thing is more likely. A great battle there, Sauron running away from there, etc etc.

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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Dec 19 2007, 4:08pm

Post #38 of 70 (3971 views)
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It is fan fiction [In reply to] Can't Post

Using a constructed outline with very little actual text to support it is indeed fan fiction; the script itself would have to be fan fiction.

However, no one said that fan fiction is bad. I have read beautiful Thorongil stories. I just wish I knew who was writing the script. If they employed some great LOTR fan fiction writers I'd probably be less worried. :P

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Lunamoth
Rohan

Dec 19 2007, 4:18pm

Post #39 of 70 (3906 views)
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Fanfiction? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Using a constructed outline with very little actual text to support it is indeed fan fiction; the script itself would have to be fan fiction.


I thought they were calling it "transformative" fiction now? ;)

Actually, if it comes from existing notes, doesn't it fall under "adaptation"?


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Dec 19 2007, 4:25pm

Post #40 of 70 (3992 views)
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The film, yes. The script, though? [In reply to] Can't Post

I honestly think that the script, if it is mostly created out of the minds of someone else for a world that does not belong to them, is indeed fan fiction. Hundreds of people have written fan fiction for LOTR that took place during the 60 year gap between the Hobbit and LOTR, using simply information given in the Appendices. This second film would have to do the same, so I would consider the script fan fiction.

However, like I said before, fan fiction can be ridiculously good. There is no reason that this cannot be good, either. They just need to hire the right people who have respect for Tolkien's world and, even if they make adjustments, it still has the same Middle-earth feel.

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SandWitch King
Rohan


Dec 19 2007, 4:34pm

Post #41 of 70 (3913 views)
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Hmmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

Stop making me think, something is going to burn up!

Tom, despite whatever depth you can find, is silly on the surface. A movie viewer, and studios make movies for movie viewers, will not know what to do with Tom? Who is this silly fellow who doesn't seem to fit in the rest of the world of Middle-earth? And despite the ritual and depth some have discovered in Tom, he is rooted in a child's lost doll, he is enigmatic and moves the plot forward only with the bestowal of swords. His inclusion would be difficult at best and absurd at worst.

It is much easier to have Aragorn hand over some swords.

Maybe in 20 years when we buy movies directly for home theaters and do so in installments, a Maverick film-maker will produce a much longer version of LOTR and call it, "J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the RIngs". We will download the 1 hour Tom Episode of LOTR to our Xbox 2030 and watch it with our home 3D glasses and scento-vision turned on, or just plug the connector directly to our cerebral cortex, but until then, under the current business model of cinema, we will not see Tom.

I wish my name was "Barrow Wong". Maybe I should change it. And now for my quote:

"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure. Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official testing record, followed by death. Good luck."


Arathorn
The Shire

Dec 19 2007, 5:11pm

Post #42 of 70 (3923 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I, Sir, am no dude.

There are a few dozens of sentences relating to the time between Hobbit and LOTR. Just how could anyone not consider that a full story, a 2+h movie about this is anything else than fanfiction is beyond my understanding - even a movie plot description, a sales pitch, could be longer than that. Heck, if anyone else than Rowling wrote tens of pages about the bitter-ending story between Dumbledore and Grindelwald, it would be considered fanfic without any doubt, by the fans themselves.
As for this having been demander by many fans (all the 42 of you), that's no justification at all. I mean, many of us had requested for months that PJ included the notorious bathing scene with Galadriel, Arwen and Eowyn, yet despite the plea of thousands of male fans, we asked in vain.
And when you see what Tolkien actually thought about fanfiction and writing anything on Middle-Earth, be it post-Sauron Aragorn's rule or anything else... - though I don't have the Letters here at the office, so I can't directly quote him.

Then, the other problem, on a completely different level, is that it's close to impossible to have one major story here without dliuting it with numerous sub-plots and passing mentions. So, sure, taking all the Tolkien-referenced events and details about all the characters would be nice, but only die-hard fans would have any interest in that. I'm not sure if they would go the fan.pleasing way - putting as much references as possible, dissolving most of the story - or the more commercial one, and coming up with a good deal of the whole story out of thin air (I suspect the latter).

Last but not least - but of course people here around are well aware of this -, is that there's a risk if PJ isn't directing this all. Particularly if he isn't directing the "sequel" - and I'd even say, particularly if Boyens and Walsh aren't co-writing the script (they would make mostly fanfic, but at least, one that would be coherent with all their additions and changes of LOTR movies, and coherent with the overall style and tone of the movies, but if they pick someone else, it wouldn't be that coherent with Tolkien nor with the LOTR movies we like).

All in all, as I said before, a Hobbit movie can be a good thing, notably if PJ is massively involved in its making - and can be far riskier quality-wise if he's not -, and I'm quite glad it can be done - even if I would have preferred that the whole team who did LOTR did Hobbit, each taking back its previous role. But a "sequel" sounded first as a joke to me when I first read such fan-made speculations years ago, and I still am of the opinion that it is definitely a bad idea.


(I suppose I should toss a "well, I'm back" somewhere up there)

"Gods don't like people not doing much work. People who aren't busy all the time may start to think."
- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods



(This post was edited by Arathorn on Dec 19 2007, 5:12pm)


Curious
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 5:19pm

Post #43 of 70 (3867 views)
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The hobbits are silly too. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm still waiting for that reverential BBC miniseries which includes everybody, including the singing eagle. Laugh if you like, but I would love to see it, and I think others would as well. Maybe before I die it will happen, if only to satisfy all the book purists.


ginapsu
Registered User


Dec 19 2007, 5:49pm

Post #44 of 70 (3887 views)
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Sequel [In reply to] Can't Post

I am just letting my mind be opened to this world. I never thought that I would get the chance to see Middle-Earth again. I thought that I would just watch the movies every holiday season and allow myself to feel the wonder and happiness I felt when I read the books the first time. I do not care if they aren't all based on perfect facts. So PJ has to add a few things. It doesn't not mean it's not going to be great. I would love the chance to see everything develop. I would love the chance to see Arwen and Aragorn again. I would love to see Bilbo and Gollum and possibly Frodo.

I'm all for this.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

People don't understand my love for LOTR and Middle-Earth, but I don't need them to understand. All I need is for me to understand.

I've been loving LOTR since 1995.


hasufel
Rivendell


Dec 19 2007, 6:03pm

Post #45 of 70 (3863 views)
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Do not see it that way [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe this "bridge" movie will be very good, as will the Hobbit.

Jackson and his core of people have had the idea for this "bridge" for a long time now.

So as far as the writing, I would bet large amounts that Boyens and Walsh will be heavily involved. In fact I would bet a lot of it has already been written.

I understand the aprehension of another director. but I also believe it will not differ from the overall feel of the trilogy.

Jackson feels very strongly about this project, I just cannot see him allowing it to be half-assed.

I also understand that there are many many subplots that could go in many different directions. but I also believe that extended versions will be made first, and then edited for theatrical release. Just as in the trilogy EEs, there will be many small references that only purists will understand.

We have to remember that Jackon is involved in this because he wants to be. not because he was coaxed back in with cash.

This will either add to or tarnish his leagacy. I do not see him allowing corners to be cut.


Patty
Immortal


Dec 19 2007, 6:30pm

Post #46 of 70 (3939 views)
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There you go. [In reply to] Can't Post

perfect solution, Curious.

For Gondor!


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Dec 19 2007, 6:40pm

Post #47 of 70 (3819 views)
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And about time too. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
(I suppose I should toss a "well, I'm back" somewhere up there)



/nag.

;)

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


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TomBomb
Registered User

Dec 19 2007, 7:57pm

Post #48 of 70 (3942 views)
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In response to the Hobbit Sequel... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with most of what you say, as far as fan-fiction goes...there is always going to be a good bit of "filling-in-the-blanks" as it were with Tolkien's universe.

Among the Dwarves who accompanied Bilbo and Gandalf was Balin. I feel that to include the story of Balin and his attempt to recapture the Mines of Moria from the Orcs would be great material for this second Hobbit movie. I believe it would fit in with the timeline and would connect why Gimli was not aware of his cousin's demise in the mines.

I've also wondered what became of the "Men of Bree" and what they did with their share of the treasure. Maybe there is material in the Silmarrillion, which is a collection that I have yet to read.


oldfan
Registered User

Dec 19 2007, 8:04pm

Post #49 of 70 (4046 views)
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This PJ bridge movie thing is not going to work .. but I can think of what will. [In reply to] Can't Post

As everyone agrees, this concept of a "bridge" story would be pure fan fiction. Problems mentioned include:

- insufficient material in LotR Appendix A for a book or movie-length narrative
- no central characters
- disregard of Tolkien's story flow with LotR as the sequel to The Hobbit
- lack of a dramatic conclusion

Furthermore, if Peter Jackson is going to out-Tolkien Tolkien, then he should publish his story in book form. The fact that he hasn't, or even outlined plot elements that have been the subject of speculation in this thread, is a bad sign. Clearly they believe that if they published their plot outline now, the fans would rebel. But we don't have to wait.

Here's what I was thinking: If people believe that making a fan fiction bridge story is a good idea, then why don't we write our own. Just create a Wikipedia-style page and start writing. If it is going to be fan fiction anyway, at least it should be written by the real fans.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 8:07pm

Post #50 of 70 (3829 views)
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Like the Animatrix? [In reply to] Can't Post

An analogy once suggested by Pukel-man.

There's also an excellent feature film from 1994 called Thirty-Two Short Films About Glenn Gould which is just that: 32 mostly unconnected films about the famous concert pianist that added up to a fascinating whole.

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