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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What does a “sequel” mean?

maegwen
Sr. Staff


Dec 19 2007, 5:16am

Post #1 of 70 (15481 views)
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What does a “sequel” mean? Can't Post

When the staff here at TheOneRing.net first heard the rumors that the Hobbit film deal would most likely be for two movies, it fueled a lot of speculation. Most of the speculation centers on the idea that the second movie will be a bridge between The Hobbit and Fellowship of the Ring.

Events that could be included in such a bridge movie:

* The White Council meets to discuss The Necromancer (aka Sauron)
* The White Council (including Saruman and Gandalf) attack The Necromancer’s stronghold at Dol Guldur. This is to prevent Sauron from searching the river for the Ring. Sauron abandons Dol Guldur and takes up residence in Mordor.
* Gollum leaves the mountain, searching for the “thief” Baggins.
* Sauron declared himself openly, starting to gather power to Mordor.
* Aragorn searches the wilds for Gollum.
* Aragorn’s engagement to Arwen.
* Frodo’s birth.

These are but a few things mentioned in Appendix B of Return of the King. These can be added to and expanded to make the story flow.


(This post was edited by Altaira on Dec 19 2007, 6:15am)


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 5:37am

Post #2 of 70 (9882 views)
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It depends on who the movie follows [In reply to] Can't Post

There are far too many story possibilites for all of them to be included. The trick, it seems, will be to concentrate on a few big ones or to find a main character/characters who can logically include as many stories as possible (Gandalf and/or Aragorn I'd assume). It will be interesting to see which path they go with and what the filmmakers think is most important.

But it is unfortunate that the second movie will almost certainly have to be non-hobbit-centric. There just isn't enough going on in The Shire to make a complete movie that doesn't feel like an anti-climax after the first four.



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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 5:46am

Post #3 of 70 (9665 views)
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A two or three-hour film adapted from a couple thousand words? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is probably best thought of as fanfiction.
Not that fanfiction can't be good. And maybe their great success has earned Jackson and co. the right to produce some big-budget fanfiction. But though Appendices A and B combined total more than 30,000 words, a great deal of that text does not bridge The Hobbit and LotR. The incidents you mention, for example, apart from the romance of Arwen and Aragorn, are treated in at most a few paragraphs.

It could work. It's a Wonderful Life was adapted from a Christmas card.

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squire
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 5:52am

Post #4 of 70 (9295 views)
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Good question [In reply to] Can't Post

One characteristic of many a bad Hollywood sequel is that the writer has an established character set and a filmic genre, but no story. So he or she whips up a story whose only requirement is that it be "like" the first movie, so that those fans will go to the sequel.

Nine times out of ten, the resulting story, and film, is weak, derivative, and mechanical.

In the case of The Hobbit, the problem is even worse: the sequel is expected to "bridge" from one scripted story to another already existing filmed story, with the added burden of a bunch of "events" that everyone expects to see portrayed because J. R. R. Tolkien described them in a "bridge" chronology that he wrote. Yet those events do not belong to any one character's story, but to many: Aragorn, Bilbo, Gandalf, Frodo, Arwen, Gollum. The essence of Tolkien's chronology is what is revealed at the beginning of FotR: nothing important happened between The Hobbit and LotR, because LotR is Tolkien's "sequel" to The Hobbit.

The challenge the writer faces is to come up with one central story that is the "Hobbit sequel" film's own story. One would expect a beginning, a middle, and an end within the film itself, that is not entirely dependent on a knowledge of the other surrounding films.

I don't think this story really exists in Tolkien's works. Probably Aragorn or Gandalf offer the best opportunity for invention here. A very large part of it - almost everything we see and all the dialogue we hear - will have to be made up.



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AbsintheFaerie
The Shire


Dec 19 2007, 5:52am

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anyone think that [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone think that Tom Bombadill will get his due credit in the sequel?

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MrCere
Sr. Staff


Dec 19 2007, 5:54am

Post #6 of 70 (9247 views)
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What is Tom due exactly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Please please please no! The most Tom should ever be is a clip filmed for funny sections of the DVD extras!

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maegwen
Sr. Staff


Dec 19 2007, 5:58am

Post #7 of 70 (9233 views)
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One possible scenario [In reply to] Can't Post

Tom left behind at a bus stop during a Characters bus trip to the set and no one misses him?

Can you think of another skit premise?


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 6:12am

Post #8 of 70 (9289 views)
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"Over the course of three nights and two days Bombadil initiates the hobbits..." [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
...prepares them for their adventures in Faerie. They bathe the first evening in his home. The next day ("Goldberry's washing day") they eat breakfast and supper, but, listening to Bombadil, miss their usual four meals in between – very unusual for hobbits! They rest that night, then the next day they eat breakfast and lunch but miss tea and dinner and breakfast the next morning (going without food for over 20 hours, from lunch in the Barrow-downs until rescued by Bombadil the next morning). Frodo awakens after he and his companions spend the night in a tomb (his companions in ceremonial garb), and calls on Bombadil, who brings them back to the world of the living and presents them with new clothes, appropriate weapons (particularly appropriate against Black Riders), and newly-named steeds. Before giving them their weapons, Bombadil says a few words over the weapons and other treasures in order to break the spell of the mound.



Read the rest of Curious's excellent comments on how Bombadil confers a sort of knighthood on the hobbits --he even dubs them!-- here. Just a reminder of the ongoing discussion of The Lord of the Rings underway in the Reading Room -- where farewells have just been said to Bombadil, in fact, as the tale moves on to Nob, Bob, Bill Ferny and Barliman Butterbur in Bree. Entmaiden does the honors this week, leading the discussion of "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony", then there is a two week hiatus for the holidays, after which Elizabeth carries on with "Strider".

But no, I see no part for Bombadil in The Hobbit or any bogus bridging movie. And though I think the three Bombadil chapters are beautiful, I understand why they were cut from Jackson's film of LotR.

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Curious
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 6:18am

Post #9 of 70 (9543 views)
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Aragorn/Thorongil would have to be the focal point, I judge. [In reply to] Can't Post

I could see expanding on the story of Aragorn and Arwen in Appendix A, plus the adventures Aragorn had in Rohan and Gondor and Umbar under the assumed name of Thorongil. There's even a hint that Aragorn and Gandalf infiltrated Minas Morgul together. And at some point Aragorn visited Moria and Harad. The story could culminate with Aragorn and Arwen meeting once again in Lothlorien, and plighting their troth. We could also meet Aragorn's mother somewhere along the way. I don't see hobbits coming into that part of the story at all, though, without a significant departure from the appendices.


SandWitch King
Rohan


Dec 19 2007, 6:20am

Post #10 of 70 (9110 views)
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Excellent but . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

That has no place in "The Hobbit" and for my money Tom has no place at the cinema either.

I wish my name was "Barrow Wong". Maybe I should change it. And now for my quote:

"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure. Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official testing record, followed by death. Good luck."


SandWitch King
Rohan


Dec 19 2007, 6:23am

Post #11 of 70 (9356 views)
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My money is on Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

And I bet New Line's is too, and Jackson's for that matter.

Gandalf is busy looking for Gollum, watching hobbits, chasing the necromancer out of forests and preparing Middle-earth for a conflict with the newly risen dark lord.

I wish my name was "Barrow Wong". Maybe I should change it. And now for my quote:

"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure. Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official testing record, followed by death. Good luck."


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 6:29am

Post #12 of 70 (9006 views)
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Why do you think so? [In reply to] Can't Post

That Tom could not be part of The Hobbit I understand (he belongs to the more adult world of LotR), but apart from the serious time constraints that the filmmakers were under, why do you feel that he has "no place at the cinema"? What about his is uncinematic? Have there been no successful film characters who suggest the anarchic nonsense that (seemingly) is Tom Bombadil?

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Curious
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 6:31am

Post #13 of 70 (9291 views)
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No romance. And Gandalf did most of that [In reply to] Can't Post

either before or during The Hobbit (visiting Dol Guldur, driving out the Necromancer) or during LotR (looking for Gollum). Frankly, its hard to tell what he did in between, but I think he could figure heavily in Thorongil's tale.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 6:36am

Post #14 of 70 (9182 views)
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Except for the affair with Arwen, of course. [In reply to] Can't Post

Shortly after his arrival, when she was only about 750 years old.

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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 6:44am

Post #15 of 70 (9243 views)
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Would that influence the Hobbit? [In reply to] Can't Post

If they want Aragorn as the focal point of the sequel, will there then be a push to include him into The Hobbit somehow? Or maybe to include just Arwen? Gandalf is the only character in both The Hobbit and LotR who could act as a bridge for all 5 films. I lean toward Aragorn as the focal character, but I worry about the fact that he's not in The Hobbit.



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SandWitch King
Rohan


Dec 19 2007, 6:48am

Post #16 of 70 (9006 views)
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Yes but . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

He did most of that in "The Hobbit" but mostly off the page. I suppose they could beef up the Hobbit movie proper with a lot of things like that but our list of Tolkien-written possibilities grows thin.

So you favor Thorongil? Interesting.

I wish my name was "Barrow Wong". Maybe I should change it. And now for my quote:

"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure. Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official testing record, followed by death. Good luck."


AbsintheFaerie
The Shire


Dec 19 2007, 6:58am

Post #17 of 70 (9027 views)
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i agree about bombadil [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel that in all the heavy and dark material in the trilogy, Tolkien included Bombadil for a bit of a light time. Just a glimpse of light, but enough for us.

Honestly I feel if Tolkien felt him important enough to put in the books, then he's important enough to put in the movies. It shouldn't be up to us to pick and choose the professor's characters for him

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 7:18am

Post #18 of 70 (8960 views)
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A filmmaker has to pick and choose... [In reply to] Can't Post

when adapting a novel to conventional feature length (or anything less than a long TV mini-series). And Tolkien, reviewing an early film treatment of LotR, said it was better to cut than to compress.

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Nazger
The Shire


Dec 19 2007, 7:19am

Post #19 of 70 (9277 views)
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Split The Hobbit into two parts? [In reply to] Can't Post

My first feeling was that they were going to split The Hobbit into two movies. Are we so sure they aren't going to do that? Why else would they shoot them simaltaneously?

"The Hobbit: There" - 2010
"The Hobbit: Back Again" - 2011


AbsintheFaerie
The Shire


Dec 19 2007, 7:26am

Post #20 of 70 (8945 views)
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another idea... [In reply to] Can't Post

How about Frodo growing up and getting into trouble with Farmer Maggot? He says he's been in terror of him and his dogs for years Wink

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Nazger
The Shire


Dec 19 2007, 7:29am

Post #21 of 70 (9159 views)
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Contradictions! [In reply to] Can't Post

They keep changing their minds about this! Some parts of the articles I'm reading talk about the first movie being The Hobbit, and the second movie being a sequel. Other parts of the same articles talk about simply splitting The Hobbit into two parts.

What is going on??!!

"The Hobbit: There" - 2010
"The Hobbit: Back Again" - 2011

(This post was edited by Nazger on Dec 19 2007, 7:31am)


Curious
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 8:11am

Post #22 of 70 (9180 views)
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It needn't. [In reply to] Can't Post

Even ignoring the age discrepancy -- Aragorn was just a kid during the action of The Hobbit -- if they are doing two movies why not focus on Bilbo in one and Aragorn in the other? Gandalf can figure heavily in both.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Dec 19 2007, 8:25am

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Ew ew ew ew ew. [In reply to] Can't Post

*tries to scrub image from mind*

I'll get you for that one NEB.

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Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


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Arathorn
The Shire

Dec 19 2007, 9:13am

Post #24 of 70 (9156 views)
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Sequel? [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering that most of the story between Hobbit and LOTR are stuff from Silm and Unfinished Tales, for which no one has the rights to make a movie, NE Brigand nailed it. There's just one word to describe a Hobbit sequel:
fanfiction
This won't be Tolkien. I really hope someone out there will come to its senses and see it as the very bad idea it is. First because there won't be much Tolkien in the whole story - and as I said eons ago, if you think you can out-Tolkien Tolkien, why not create your own world and your own saga in it? Second, because, well, you will end the whole saga with the less climactic part of all, which makes no sense (I mean, with Star Wars at least you had the rise of the Empire and the creation of Vader and the twins' birth, but with Tolkien you have nothing; ending with Arwen-Aragorn, or with Sauron booted out of Dol Guldur can't compare with this, can't compare with the "end of all things")

So, on one hand I am particularly glad that there's a Hobbit movie going on - glad that the obious choices of Serkis, McKellen, WETA, New Zealand will be back onscreen, and that PJ will have quite a major hand on it -, even though I'm anxious about the director's choice (even if I wouldn't expect a rollercoaster and a box-office as insanely huge as ROTK's). On the other hand, I am seriously pondering the wisdom of a "Hobbit sequel"; at the end of the day, LOTR was meant to be the Hobbit sequel Tolkien's published wanted him to write.

"Gods don't like people not doing much work. People who aren't busy all the time may start to think."
- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods



squire
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 12:31pm

Post #25 of 70 (9541 views)
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"Black Arrow!" cried Aragorn. "I had you from my exiled royal father, and he from..." [In reply to] Can't Post

There is an obvious way to get Aragorn into The Hobbit, though it violates everything that book purists think makes The Hobbit distinctive.

The real thing to remember about a Hobbit "sequel" film to "tie the two films together" is that everything that we learn in FotR about Middle-earth and the heroes of that story will have to come from this Hobbit-sequel movie.

In other words: all that stuff about Aragorn "choosing his path" to remain an exile rather than claim the crown of Gondor? If Aragorn appears in the sequel-prequel at all, we will have to get some explanation of what and when that choice was. Ditto for the Arwen thing. And Elrond's words about "men are weak". Gandalf's words to Frodo about the Ring, and about Gollum, in the FotR film will still have to make sense both in the context of FotR as an independent story, and in the context of what we will have learned in the sequel-prequel.

Boyens, Walsh, and Jackson put a lot of time into their FotR introductions of characters that assumed that first-time film viewers did not know who these people were or what their backgrounds were. All that acting and talking and stuff has to be kept in mind while creating this new back-story for the "preceding" film, if FotR is still to make sense after 2011.

They may have to go the George Lucas route:

"Wipe that wizard's memory", Elrond bade the healer.




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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Dec 19 2007, 12:55pm

Post #26 of 70 (4200 views)
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I can't WAIT to see what they do with this! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm seriously excited at the prospect of Philippa, Fran and Peter creating this bridge! It's thrilling to me!

There's Gollum's story of finally leaving the mountain and seeking out the Ring and Baggins;
Gandalf's undisclosed works that keep him busy and build to this final part of his mission in Middle-earth;
his discovery and companionship with Aragorn (learning his true identity, mentoring?, etc.);
Arwen and Aragorn's story;
Balin going to Moria;
Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf's growing concern with Sauron's move from Mirkwood
Saruman's fall from grace beginning (helping us to understand his part in LotR);
Wormtongue in league with Saruman and how he fell and began manipulating his way into Theoden's confidence and torment;
relationship between Theodred, Eowyn and Eomer
Denethor's control of Gondor and his sons;
the Rangers patrolling the Shire (for Gandalf?);
Frodo's life and how he came to be with Bilbo (paramount to the story, imho);
his friendship and the story of Sam (as well as Merry & Pippin);
Lobelia and Lotho's antagonism and angst at the auction when Bilbo returns, upon Frodo's adoption, and up to Bilbo leaving (explaining why he hides from them in Bag End and the Party);
Haldir's role at protecting Lorien's borders
Legolas and Gimli's rise to representing their fathers
explanations as to why the dwarves and elves distrust each other so much...

...oh, there's lots to explore!!! *twitch*



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Corvar
PTB


Dec 19 2007, 1:27pm

Post #27 of 70 (4059 views)
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Director/s [In reply to] Can't Post

They haven't even committed to a single director, and there have been vague rumors that possibly Jackson would direct one of the films. How well would it work to have two different directors shooting pretty much the same story at the same time with the same actors? It would be disaster. That IMO lends weight to the bridge idea, which would focus on different characters, reducing some of the conflicts in scheduling.

As to why shoot both of them at the same time? Hype? Some cost benefits? Being able to more closely bond them in the box office, because an unknown sequel in the box office a couple of years from The Hobbit might not get a lot of attention.


Corvar
PTB


Dec 19 2007, 1:32pm

Post #28 of 70 (4218 views)
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Possibly correct [In reply to] Can't Post

If our supposition is correct, fan fiction wouldn't be a completely bad term, just as fan fiction wouldn't be a bad description of some of the changes made in the trilogy. *shrugs*

Another way to think about this, where would the first part of The Hobbit end if it was split? The escape from the mountain with Bilbo thought dead? And as many people have brought up, is there enough material in The Hobbit to warrant 2 movies? Especially if off-page action isn't added in. Even if they just dealt with The White Council and the expultion of the Necromancer...


GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea


Dec 19 2007, 2:03pm

Post #29 of 70 (4057 views)
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It looks like there are too many stories with not enough substance. [In reply to] Can't Post

Heck, if they're going with the bridge concept, they might as well made the second movie as twenty short films. :o/

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_V_
Lorien


Dec 19 2007, 3:20pm

Post #30 of 70 (3950 views)
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more [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
* The White Council meets to discuss The Necromancer (aka Sauron)
* The White Council (including Saruman and Gandalf) attack The Necromancer’s stronghold at Dol Guldur. This is to prevent Sauron from searching the river for the Ring. Sauron abandons Dol Guldur and takes up residence in Mordor.
* Gollum leaves the mountain, searching for the “thief” Baggins.
* Sauron declared himself openly, starting to gather power to Mordor.
* Aragorn searches the wilds for Gollum.
* Aragorn’s engagement to Arwen.
* Frodo’s birth.



*Showing Theoden's wife dying in childbirth of Theodred, then
*Eomund dying fighting on the marches and his wife dying of grief thus
*A young ~10 year old boy and his 3 year old sister are seen moving in to Meduseld; young Eomer and Eowyn
*More of Eomer and Eowyn and even Theodred as they grow up, Theoden descending into grief, aided by Wormtongue's manipulations.
*Show Aragorn become Thorongil and defeating the Corsairs, becoming the rival of young Denethor
*Show young Boromir and Faramir's rise
*Show all the way up to the fall of Osgiliath and Boromir's counteroffensive to retake the west bank of the city, destroying the bridge in the process; essentially leading all the way up to right before the flashback in Two Towers.
*Yes, show the growing power of Mordor
*Make it a point to have a Galadriel and Arwen scene at some point to actually say on screen "she's her grandmother, her mother is dead" etc. (organically work this in somehow)
*Show how Bilbo was considered a weirdo by the older Hobbits but they younger HObbits thought his stories were amazing, and young 10 year old Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin.
*Show how Frodo gets orphaned and he moves in with Bilbo
*A significant chunk of the story will be "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen"; Aragorn's rise from orphaned heir of the Dunedain and Elrond's ward, to being told his identity when he turned 20, meeting Arwen, gradually wandering Middle-earth and becoming a great warrior and traveller, meeting Gandalf, becoming Thorongil in Gondor, and finally hunting Gollum for Gandalf and then secretly guarding the outskirts of the shire.
*If at all possible, try to do a flashback to events in the PAST of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, etc. explaining what happened to Moria
*Show Balin leave for Moria,, possibly also show his dwarves getting wiped out



(This post was edited by Draug the Unspeakably Violent on Dec 19 2007, 3:23pm)


merklynn
Lorien

Dec 19 2007, 3:21pm

Post #31 of 70 (4167 views)
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About this "bridge" movie [In reply to] Can't Post

I know this is a matter of opinion, but the movies are just movies, and the books will always be the books. In 20 or 30 years time there could be new versions of LOTR and The Hobbit being made. My point is, so what if the "Bridge" is essentially a fan fiction? If Jackson, Walsh and Boyens are handling it, then its one fan fiction I'd love to see realizedon the big screen. I loved seeing this team, including McKellen, Mortenssen, and Lee, with WETA, among others bringing to life one of the only and certainly the best fantasy movie series of all time.

The fantasy movie genre has never had any serious/drama movies made that have done it any credit. I hoped that the LOTR films would be the injection in the arm that the genre needed. For decades we have been getting B-movie after be B-movie, even post Jackson's LOTR films. However, we can have faith at least in the fact that Jackson brings an understanding and a respect for the fantasy genre, as well as a historical quality to the films. Under his control, we can expect the Hobbit and it's bridge sequel will be top notch.

I also don't think it's fair to judge the movies entirely based upon how many minor characters or scenes were omitted unless it fundamentally alters the message and themes of the author. The existing LOTR trilogy was highly entertaining, took a few liberties here and there, but overall, those liberties are nowhere near as bad as is the usual standard for Hollywood butcherization. I wish the majority of fans out there (for whatever fandom) would be able to look at the bigger picture when it comes to movie adaptations. It's not a policy of "it could be so much worse" that I'm endorsing, but rather that these films are just interpretations, as is anything not written by the original author.

So why not take pleasure in the possibility that this "bridge" movie may in fact be only as canon as a fan fiction, and enjoy the further adventures of the characters such as Gandalf, Aragorn, Arwen, (as well as seeing more of Elrond, Saruman, Galadriel, Bilbo etc)? The purpose of these films is to entertain. I know that I would love to see a TV mini series produced by Jackson which told all the smaller stories from the Appendices, The Silmarillion, and The Unfinished Tales. At least for this bridge there is material to draw from.

I'm really excited about the possibilities of tales such as the White Council / Necromancer being shown and explored and I welcome new and unheard of adventures following Aragorn and others. It's a world that I am really glad PJ will be able to take us back into.

Oh, and "Hi" by the way. :-)


Curious
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 3:22pm

Post #32 of 70 (4022 views)
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You make a good case for a broader approach. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Although tying all those stories together might be a challenge. I still think Aragorn's story presents the most potential, but since he and Gandalf both travel so much, they could also touch base with the various other strands of the story.


_V_
Lorien


Dec 19 2007, 3:24pm

Post #33 of 70 (4017 views)
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hey [In reply to] Can't Post

Dude it's not fan-fiction its using material from the book appendixes which many of us (including mytself) were actually DEMANDING to be adapted.


_V_
Lorien


Dec 19 2007, 3:25pm

Post #34 of 70 (3918 views)
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linker [In reply to] Can't Post

yes, the linker would be Gandalf travelling around (though not in every strand) and then we'd see Aragorn travelling through Rohan with Thengel at some point (seeing a child Theoden) as a linker to Rohan....and then near the end we see Eomund die and an orphaned Eomer and Eowyn moving in to Meduseld.


merklynn
Lorien

Dec 19 2007, 3:31pm

Post #35 of 70 (3937 views)
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Fan fic [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the fan fiction reference is in response to people looking upon the need for some new material as well as the liberties that may be necessary for a "bridge" sequel. I'm just arguing that for those people that want to look on it as being no more canon than fan fic, then they should also watch the movie and enjoy it as a fan fic too, rather than damn the film for not following Tolkien to the letter.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Dec 19 2007, 3:55pm

Post #36 of 70 (3885 views)
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Hello! [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have to agree with you about the adaptation stuff; it is just an adaptation.

But my biggest fear is that, even if they create a movie made of fan fiction, that it will not be good fan fiction. Hah, they should employ some of the best fan fiction writers to help them out ;)

I am just afraid that LOTR will lose a lot of its credibility if the sequel to the Hobbit turns out to be a flop. That would be most devastating.

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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Dec 19 2007, 4:05pm

Post #37 of 70 (4064 views)
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I'm thinking either Thorongil or Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that it is a great possibility that they will push the events of Dol Guldur forward to the last White Council meeting in 2953, when Aragorn is 22. They could have a great conflict there, and they could easily involve him, Arwen, and even Legolas in the film.

If not that, I imagine the tale starring both Gandalf and Aragorn; an entertwined tale similar to what they did with ROTK and TTT. Aragorn would do Thorongil, Arwen at Cerin Amroth (a scene they have already shot, I know), and Aragorn hunting Gollum with Gandalf. Who knows, maybe we'll even see some of Aragorn's people. Gandalf would meet up with Bilbo, start to suspect the One Ring, maybe meet a young Frodo when Bilbo adopts him... and then end it with him hunting for Gollum with Aragorn. But of course, this film wouldn't add much of a climax, so I'm thinking that the Dol Guldur thing is more likely. A great battle there, Sauron running away from there, etc etc.

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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Dec 19 2007, 4:08pm

Post #38 of 70 (3969 views)
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It is fan fiction [In reply to] Can't Post

Using a constructed outline with very little actual text to support it is indeed fan fiction; the script itself would have to be fan fiction.

However, no one said that fan fiction is bad. I have read beautiful Thorongil stories. I just wish I knew who was writing the script. If they employed some great LOTR fan fiction writers I'd probably be less worried. :P

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Lunamoth
Rohan

Dec 19 2007, 4:18pm

Post #39 of 70 (3904 views)
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Fanfiction? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Using a constructed outline with very little actual text to support it is indeed fan fiction; the script itself would have to be fan fiction.


I thought they were calling it "transformative" fiction now? ;)

Actually, if it comes from existing notes, doesn't it fall under "adaptation"?


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Dec 19 2007, 4:25pm

Post #40 of 70 (3990 views)
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The film, yes. The script, though? [In reply to] Can't Post

I honestly think that the script, if it is mostly created out of the minds of someone else for a world that does not belong to them, is indeed fan fiction. Hundreds of people have written fan fiction for LOTR that took place during the 60 year gap between the Hobbit and LOTR, using simply information given in the Appendices. This second film would have to do the same, so I would consider the script fan fiction.

However, like I said before, fan fiction can be ridiculously good. There is no reason that this cannot be good, either. They just need to hire the right people who have respect for Tolkien's world and, even if they make adjustments, it still has the same Middle-earth feel.

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SandWitch King
Rohan


Dec 19 2007, 4:34pm

Post #41 of 70 (3911 views)
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Hmmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

Stop making me think, something is going to burn up!

Tom, despite whatever depth you can find, is silly on the surface. A movie viewer, and studios make movies for movie viewers, will not know what to do with Tom? Who is this silly fellow who doesn't seem to fit in the rest of the world of Middle-earth? And despite the ritual and depth some have discovered in Tom, he is rooted in a child's lost doll, he is enigmatic and moves the plot forward only with the bestowal of swords. His inclusion would be difficult at best and absurd at worst.

It is much easier to have Aragorn hand over some swords.

Maybe in 20 years when we buy movies directly for home theaters and do so in installments, a Maverick film-maker will produce a much longer version of LOTR and call it, "J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the RIngs". We will download the 1 hour Tom Episode of LOTR to our Xbox 2030 and watch it with our home 3D glasses and scento-vision turned on, or just plug the connector directly to our cerebral cortex, but until then, under the current business model of cinema, we will not see Tom.

I wish my name was "Barrow Wong". Maybe I should change it. And now for my quote:

"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure. Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official testing record, followed by death. Good luck."


Arathorn
The Shire

Dec 19 2007, 5:11pm

Post #42 of 70 (3921 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I, Sir, am no dude.

There are a few dozens of sentences relating to the time between Hobbit and LOTR. Just how could anyone not consider that a full story, a 2+h movie about this is anything else than fanfiction is beyond my understanding - even a movie plot description, a sales pitch, could be longer than that. Heck, if anyone else than Rowling wrote tens of pages about the bitter-ending story between Dumbledore and Grindelwald, it would be considered fanfic without any doubt, by the fans themselves.
As for this having been demander by many fans (all the 42 of you), that's no justification at all. I mean, many of us had requested for months that PJ included the notorious bathing scene with Galadriel, Arwen and Eowyn, yet despite the plea of thousands of male fans, we asked in vain.
And when you see what Tolkien actually thought about fanfiction and writing anything on Middle-Earth, be it post-Sauron Aragorn's rule or anything else... - though I don't have the Letters here at the office, so I can't directly quote him.

Then, the other problem, on a completely different level, is that it's close to impossible to have one major story here without dliuting it with numerous sub-plots and passing mentions. So, sure, taking all the Tolkien-referenced events and details about all the characters would be nice, but only die-hard fans would have any interest in that. I'm not sure if they would go the fan.pleasing way - putting as much references as possible, dissolving most of the story - or the more commercial one, and coming up with a good deal of the whole story out of thin air (I suspect the latter).

Last but not least - but of course people here around are well aware of this -, is that there's a risk if PJ isn't directing this all. Particularly if he isn't directing the "sequel" - and I'd even say, particularly if Boyens and Walsh aren't co-writing the script (they would make mostly fanfic, but at least, one that would be coherent with all their additions and changes of LOTR movies, and coherent with the overall style and tone of the movies, but if they pick someone else, it wouldn't be that coherent with Tolkien nor with the LOTR movies we like).

All in all, as I said before, a Hobbit movie can be a good thing, notably if PJ is massively involved in its making - and can be far riskier quality-wise if he's not -, and I'm quite glad it can be done - even if I would have preferred that the whole team who did LOTR did Hobbit, each taking back its previous role. But a "sequel" sounded first as a joke to me when I first read such fan-made speculations years ago, and I still am of the opinion that it is definitely a bad idea.


(I suppose I should toss a "well, I'm back" somewhere up there)

"Gods don't like people not doing much work. People who aren't busy all the time may start to think."
- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods



(This post was edited by Arathorn on Dec 19 2007, 5:12pm)


Curious
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 5:19pm

Post #43 of 70 (3865 views)
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The hobbits are silly too. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm still waiting for that reverential BBC miniseries which includes everybody, including the singing eagle. Laugh if you like, but I would love to see it, and I think others would as well. Maybe before I die it will happen, if only to satisfy all the book purists.


ginapsu
Registered User


Dec 19 2007, 5:49pm

Post #44 of 70 (3885 views)
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Sequel [In reply to] Can't Post

I am just letting my mind be opened to this world. I never thought that I would get the chance to see Middle-Earth again. I thought that I would just watch the movies every holiday season and allow myself to feel the wonder and happiness I felt when I read the books the first time. I do not care if they aren't all based on perfect facts. So PJ has to add a few things. It doesn't not mean it's not going to be great. I would love the chance to see everything develop. I would love the chance to see Arwen and Aragorn again. I would love to see Bilbo and Gollum and possibly Frodo.

I'm all for this.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

People don't understand my love for LOTR and Middle-Earth, but I don't need them to understand. All I need is for me to understand.

I've been loving LOTR since 1995.


hasufel
Rivendell


Dec 19 2007, 6:03pm

Post #45 of 70 (3861 views)
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Do not see it that way [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe this "bridge" movie will be very good, as will the Hobbit.

Jackson and his core of people have had the idea for this "bridge" for a long time now.

So as far as the writing, I would bet large amounts that Boyens and Walsh will be heavily involved. In fact I would bet a lot of it has already been written.

I understand the aprehension of another director. but I also believe it will not differ from the overall feel of the trilogy.

Jackson feels very strongly about this project, I just cannot see him allowing it to be half-assed.

I also understand that there are many many subplots that could go in many different directions. but I also believe that extended versions will be made first, and then edited for theatrical release. Just as in the trilogy EEs, there will be many small references that only purists will understand.

We have to remember that Jackon is involved in this because he wants to be. not because he was coaxed back in with cash.

This will either add to or tarnish his leagacy. I do not see him allowing corners to be cut.


Patty
Immortal


Dec 19 2007, 6:30pm

Post #46 of 70 (3937 views)
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There you go. [In reply to] Can't Post

perfect solution, Curious.

For Gondor!


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Dec 19 2007, 6:40pm

Post #47 of 70 (3817 views)
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And about time too. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
(I suppose I should toss a "well, I'm back" somewhere up there)



/nag.

;)

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


TomBomb
Registered User

Dec 19 2007, 7:57pm

Post #48 of 70 (3940 views)
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In response to the Hobbit Sequel... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with most of what you say, as far as fan-fiction goes...there is always going to be a good bit of "filling-in-the-blanks" as it were with Tolkien's universe.

Among the Dwarves who accompanied Bilbo and Gandalf was Balin. I feel that to include the story of Balin and his attempt to recapture the Mines of Moria from the Orcs would be great material for this second Hobbit movie. I believe it would fit in with the timeline and would connect why Gimli was not aware of his cousin's demise in the mines.

I've also wondered what became of the "Men of Bree" and what they did with their share of the treasure. Maybe there is material in the Silmarrillion, which is a collection that I have yet to read.


oldfan
Registered User

Dec 19 2007, 8:04pm

Post #49 of 70 (4044 views)
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This PJ bridge movie thing is not going to work .. but I can think of what will. [In reply to] Can't Post

As everyone agrees, this concept of a "bridge" story would be pure fan fiction. Problems mentioned include:

- insufficient material in LotR Appendix A for a book or movie-length narrative
- no central characters
- disregard of Tolkien's story flow with LotR as the sequel to The Hobbit
- lack of a dramatic conclusion

Furthermore, if Peter Jackson is going to out-Tolkien Tolkien, then he should publish his story in book form. The fact that he hasn't, or even outlined plot elements that have been the subject of speculation in this thread, is a bad sign. Clearly they believe that if they published their plot outline now, the fans would rebel. But we don't have to wait.

Here's what I was thinking: If people believe that making a fan fiction bridge story is a good idea, then why don't we write our own. Just create a Wikipedia-style page and start writing. If it is going to be fan fiction anyway, at least it should be written by the real fans.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 8:07pm

Post #50 of 70 (3827 views)
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Like the Animatrix? [In reply to] Can't Post

An analogy once suggested by Pukel-man.

There's also an excellent feature film from 1994 called Thirty-Two Short Films About Glenn Gould which is just that: 32 mostly unconnected films about the famous concert pianist that added up to a fascinating whole.

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Join us Dec. 17-23 for "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony".


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 8:29pm

Post #51 of 70 (3606 views)
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Treasure in Bree? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I've also wondered what became of the "Men of Bree" and what they did with their share of the treasure.

Are you perhaps thinking of Dale? Bree doesn't even exist in The Hobbit, except when viewed retroactively.


Quote
Maybe there is material in The Silmarillion, which is a collection that I have yet to read.

There isn't, and if there were, Jackson & co. couldn't touch it anyway, as they don't have the rights.

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merklynn
Lorien

Dec 19 2007, 9:05pm

Post #52 of 70 (3610 views)
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I think PJ could be considered a real fan [In reply to] Can't Post

 


oldfan
Registered User

Dec 19 2007, 9:30pm

Post #53 of 70 (3570 views)
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umm [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe a long time ago. If PJ was in this for love and not money, then what was the point of the lawsuit? Peter Jackson is who he is, but IMHO he is not a fan. Which just begs the question of how you are going to get anything resembling "good" fan fiction from people with commercial interests.


BG
Board Developer / Moderator


Dec 19 2007, 9:30pm

Post #54 of 70 (3645 views)
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Maybe it would work... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
As everyone agrees, this concept of a "bridge" story would be pure fan fiction. Problems mentioned include:



...if it were a literal bridge movie... perhaps the engineering and construction history of the bridge of Khazad-Dûm?


Quote
Here's what I was thinking: If people believe that making a fan fiction bridge story is a good idea, then why don't we write our own. Just create a Wikipedia-style page and start writing. If it is going to be fan fiction anyway, at least it should be written by the real fans.



Oh yeah, what a great idea, us real fans are soooo much more talented and capable than professional screenwriters. Tongue


oldfan
Registered User

Dec 19 2007, 9:42pm

Post #55 of 70 (3520 views)
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it will work [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Oh yeah, what a great idea, us real fans are soooo much more talented and capable than professional screenwriters. Tongue



You are being sarcastic?


(This post was edited by oldfan on Dec 19 2007, 9:44pm)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 9:55pm

Post #56 of 70 (3528 views)
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The lawsuit was... [In reply to] Can't Post

at least partly about transparent accounting.

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 10:01pm

Post #57 of 70 (3559 views)
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"Notes on Dwarven Engineering" by Reverend. [In reply to] Can't Post

A Reading Room thread from 2003.

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TomBomb
Registered User

Dec 19 2007, 10:48pm

Post #58 of 70 (3570 views)
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Bree-Dale [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, it probably was Dale...the man with the Black Arrow...It's been some time since I read the book. Where did I get Bree from?
Anywhoo...There must be some material about the many dwarves that accompanied Bilbo, there were 12 of them I believe, I'm not sure how many perished during the final battle. This subject should surely play a big role in the Hobbit Sequel.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Dec 19 2007, 11:09pm

Post #59 of 70 (3570 views)
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Three of the thirteen dwarves... [In reply to] Can't Post

die in in the Battle of Five Armies: Thorin, Fili and Kili.

And the hero of Lake-town is Bard.

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GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea


Dec 19 2007, 11:28pm

Post #60 of 70 (3524 views)
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I suspect it would be more along the lines of Trilogy of Terror. / [In reply to] Can't Post

;o)

~~~~~~~~

Formerly known as GaladrielTX


rewand
Registered User

Dec 20 2007, 2:59pm

Post #61 of 70 (3698 views)
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yes, the story of Thorongil (Aragorn) [In reply to] Can't Post

Hobbit takes place in 2941-2942. This just 10 years before Aragorn comes of age and 17 years before he goes off on his many journies. It should fit well it between the Hobbit and the Fellowship. A bit of Saruman back story could be worked in as Thorongil and Thengel tromp in the Isengard environs and the Gandalf/Denethor friction could be worked up as well. Then, of course there's the Arwen story which would likely dominate. I don't know. As good as Fran is with the script the made up parts are never quite as good as the "real" thing.

Following that same thought, the main problem the Arwen/Aragorn sory is that it's strongest when it's told the way Tolkien told it. Aragorn, raised in Rivendell, sets off to prove/prepare himself. He's on a quest to live up to his name. After all Elrond had clearly explained that his daughter would sacrifice her immortality for no one less than the king of both Gondor and Arnor. But if you follow the story this way you can't end up with the pathetic, reluctant hero figure Peter put into the LoTR movies. It's also difficult to bridge from a supportive, almost fatherly Elrond that Tolkien wrote about to the brooding and protective Elrond of PJ.
--


Curious
Half-elven


Dec 20 2007, 4:54pm

Post #62 of 70 (3642 views)
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Elrond is protective of Arwen in Appendix A. [In reply to] Can't Post

He forbids Aragorn from wooing her until he saves the world from Sauron, which is almost as difficult as the task Beren had to perform.


visualweasel
Rohan


Dec 20 2007, 5:53pm

Post #63 of 70 (3518 views)
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Jeez, could you at least give a spoiler alert?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Next you're going to tell me there's an actual king in The Return of the King and that he does, in fact, return. Ack! Not listening, not listening!!

I crack myself up! Wink

Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish

(This post was edited by visualweasel on Dec 20 2007, 5:54pm)


makonix
The Shire

Dec 21 2007, 12:23am

Post #64 of 70 (3479 views)
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it might be a good idea if done well [In reply to] Can't Post

Based on all ideas, I created a list of all events ordered by their possible appearance on the screen.

Part one:
Aragorn's birth, and rise from orphaned heir of the Dunedain and Elrond's ward
Introduction to Gandalf and Bilbo
Introduction to the dwarf kingdoms
introduction to Gondor
Gandalf's discovery of Aragorn
Gandalf's preparation of Middle-earth for a conflict with the newly risen dark lord.
the fall of Osgiliath
The whole adventure of Bilbo
The White Council meets to discuss The Necromancer
Introduction to the elven kingdoms
The battle of the five armies

part two:
Gollum leaves the mountain, searching for the “thief” Baggins.
Balin leave for Moria
Aragorn searches the wilds for Gollum.
Legolas and Gimli's rise to representing their fathers
Aragorn visits Moria and Harad, and maybe Rohan and Gondor and Umbar.
Balin and his attempt to recapture the Mines of Moria from the Orcs
More about the life in Lorien and Haldir's role
More about Rohan
The White Council (including Saruman and Gandalf) attack The Necromancer’s stronghold at Dol Guldur.
Boromir's counteroffensive to retake Osgiliath
Aragorn’s engagement to Arwen.
show the growing power of Mordor
Saruman's fall from grace beginning
Introduction to Frodo and the other hobbits and maybe to the other younger LOTR people


I can understand the concern of the lack of an actual text. But watching LOTR movies, I noticed that they used lots of text from one book, in a scene from another book. This trend can be certainly used in the Hobbit as well. Since it is a movie adaption, the power of the words are relative to the person, not to the time happening. And the LOTR books are full of text referencing the period before the time of LOTR.
At the end of the day, the real power lays in the hands of the right scriptwriter and his knowledge of the characters.


simoncito
Registered User

Dec 21 2007, 12:29am

Post #65 of 70 (3555 views)
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The Prequel to The Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

Why all this fuss about a bridge movie? There is plenty of material that is much more appropriate concerning events - including significant dialogue - before and during The Hobbit: Thorin's ancestors and the battle at the gates of Moria, and Gandalf at the dungeons of Dol Guldor (appendix and Unfinished Tales); early tensions in Gandalf and Saruman' s relationship (Unfinished Tales); Saruman's searches at the Anduin for the ring; the White Council overthrowing Dol Guldor.

And then you have all the later events described at the Council of Elrond (Gollum's story; the dwarves at the lonely mountain being threatened by Sauron's messenger; the travels of Aragorn and Gandalf; Balin leaving Erebor to reclaim Moria). That is actually a LOT of text... but enough to create a whole new film? Maybe not. And do all the dates really strictly have to follow the appendix anyway - Jackson after all heaviliy compressed time in the other films?

So the best way does seem to me to be to expand The Hobbit and incorporate parts of this to each half, ending - as does the book - with the visit of Balin and Gandalf to Bag End (perhaps adding Balin announcing he has left the Lonely Mountain and is gathering a team to re-take the ancient home of Moria...)

What else is really needed?


simoncito
Registered User

Dec 21 2007, 12:38am

Post #66 of 70 (3488 views)
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Ergo [In reply to] Can't Post

So split the thing in two and ratchet up the two halves!!


rewand
Registered User

Dec 21 2007, 10:01pm

Post #67 of 70 (3550 views)
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OK, brooding and controlling Elrond [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
He forbids Aragorn from wooing her until he saves the world from Sauron, which is almost as difficult as the task Beren had to perform.

Perhaps I chose the wrong word but my point is that while Tolkien's Elrond expresses concern, and worry over the potential union and tells of the potential pain for all involved, he doesn't go around trying to thwart Arwen's choices. His daughter she may be but he treats her like a 2800 year old adult. Filling Aragorn with reluctance, having Elrond withhold Anduril, pretending that the ships sailing were the very last ones etc. were all plot devices used by PJ to bring drama to the love story. This was not without cost. Aragorn's character suffered greatly. Next to the utter rape of Faramir's character I hold this as the most egregious sin of the movies.

All of this is a problem if PJ want's to make a movie about how Aragorn "became at last the most hardy of living Men, skilled in their crafts and lore. . ." Apdx A(v). Big gap between that Aragorn and the one in the movies


dvanwechel
Registered User

Dec 24 2007, 2:36pm

Post #68 of 70 (3528 views)
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Sequel means none of those things... [In reply to] Can't Post

As mentioned by Peter Jackson on a number of occasions, The Hobbit has a large number of characters and important events that should be given appropriate screen time - a single film wouldn't accomplish this. I'm guessing that the word "sequel" is being used to describe The Hobbit being broken into two films.


Dunadan
Registered User

Dec 27 2007, 4:45pm

Post #69 of 70 (3499 views)
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One book told over two movies [In reply to] Can't Post

Some of you get it, most of you don't...

It'll be The Hobbit told over the span of two movies. Because PJ has credibility to make these box office successes, it is smarter to make two ~1.5 hour movies than one 3hr movie.

Expect to see some scenes from the appendices, but nothing that will draw away from the main story too much.


Mortimus
Bree

Dec 29 2007, 5:24am

Post #70 of 70 (3450 views)
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One book told over two movies [In reply to] Can't Post

This is certainly the version I'd rather have, with Dol Guldur happening concurrently (as 'the' bridging material - I do wonder whether that's what's being referred to), and I would be very happy to have no Aragorn/Arwen story, and no Gimli/Legolas cameos. I speak only for myself, of course.

My reasons? They've been expounded here by others more articulate than me already, but mainy because I think cameos would be a step too near the 'cute and cheesy' camp, and they add nothing to the story. In fact, I would say they 'shrink' Tolkien's world, rather than add to it.

As for the 'romance' sub-story, I would be the first to agree that the story of The Hobbit is somewhat challenged in the romance angle and potentially only promises Bard as eye candy ("if-that's-what-you're-into....", he whistled), but I like the fact that we encounter Aragorn first as Strider through suspicious Hobbit eyes, and his story unfolding naturally through the trilogy. I think the story of him and Arwen, and indeed the hunt for Gollum and Gandalf's research into the Ring - are all told deftly and swiftly in FotR. Re-telling the same stories large in a sequel reminds me of the remastered Star Wars and its repeated Greedo/Jabba dialogue.

 
 

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