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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 18 2013, 11:35am
Post #26 of 72
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poetically, nienna being unpaired seems to speak to the strength that one can have even when one is sorrowing, or in despair.
i suspect that many here have experienced being in distress, and, in the midst of wondering how one is going to cope with the current physical or emotional pain, crosses paths with someone in need... someone who is also suffering.
at times, when i have experienced this, i have been shaken out of my focus on my own pain onto another's. mine may still hurt, but it can become more manageable in juxtaposition, and often that coincides with my extending myself to this other person, to help her/him deal with her/his pain.
nienna is (as i've spoken of before) one of the most understated of the valar, and i think the most undercelebrated (i've spoken more of this upthread).
again, to the power of empathy, the power of compassion... when one is wounded, how healing, how validating is just the recognition that one is hurting by someone who cares? that support, that friend, does not necessarily even need to solve our problems. often, just being given the gift of listening -- listening with empathy -- heals so much.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 18 2013, 12:35pm
Post #27 of 72
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Do you suppose he considers handing over the Silmarils, even for a moment?
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
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Finwe
Lorien
Apr 18 2013, 1:43pm
Post #28 of 72
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But not out of the goodness of his heart. He's probably scheming in his head how he could possibly leverage his position to benefit himself. His whole existence has been about benefiting himself, so I see no reason to believe he is wavering now. One way I've always thought of Feanor is as a chess player amongst checkers players. Or at least very poor chess players. The Silmarillion has very few chess players considering we're witnessing the Noontide of the Valar and the prime of the Eldar. In the Sil, you've got Feanor, Melkor, and Ulmo.
As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.
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Finwe
Lorien
Apr 18 2013, 1:48pm
Post #29 of 72
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I lost the end of the end of my previous post. I was going to mention how many chess players we get in the LOTR, which takes place after/during the diminishing of both the Eldar and Edain and doesn't include any Valar. You've got Gandalf, Saruman, Aragorn, Elrond, Galadriel, Sauron, Gollum, and I'd even throw Denethor in the mix.
As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 18 2013, 2:44pm
Post #30 of 72
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If I have time tomorrow, I'll look at the other responses as well...
1) Do you feel there is a deliberate progression here for stylistic effect through the book?
Well, at last we have actual personal interaction and tension.
I also felt the immediacy of Feanor's encounter with Melkor two chapters ago.
If so, does it work for you?
Yes. Feanor is easily one of Tolkien's most powerfully-written characters.
Or does it depend on the various versions and edits from which each chapter was assembled (or the extent to which Tolkien had imagined the scene visually)?
I do not remember, but I think not.
Or are we reflecting what information might have been available to the imagined in-world writer/editor of the Silmarillion?
Hardly. How is that connected?
Or not - what do you think?
Well, the encounter in Lammoth was written also with great directness, and the second Melkor-Ungoliant confrontation was also not witnessed. I guess that Tolkien's art was not quite conditioned by his metafiction (one of squire's oft-repeated points).
2) Fëanor’s “foresight” - do we think Fëanor might really have been motivated (consciously or unconsciously) to make a sort of Light-of-the Trees emergency backup, or is Yavanna merely saying that what started out as a pure art project now has a practical use?
Yavanna gives him the benefit of the doubt (as she sees it).
But it's more likely that he was subconsciously thinking of Middle-earth, and bringign it the light which the Valar begrudged it.
Or does Yavanna not understand the working's of the artificer's mind (despite being married to one)?
Well, your last suggestion seems more likely than it being pure flattery.
3) Is Aule thinking back to the unfortunate incident about the dwarves?
Unlikely. I don't think he believed that the Silmarils are going to take a life of their own.
4) Apart from this (possibly accidental) role as a potential tree medicine, I don’t believe the Silmarils have a practical purpose: it is pure art stirring up these dark passions. Is that deliberate on Tolkien’s part, do you think?
I guess so.
What I mean is that wanting the Silmarils is not bound up with wanting them for something, because the don’t do anything (burn your hand and then make a most uncomfortable crown, seems to be about it).
Nice! But for Melkor it is in a way a lust for Varda and her light. Ungoliant isn't the only one, you know.
And so the passions they stir up - pride, envy, covetousness, greed, suspicion could be said to be in a pure form. Is there an interesting contrast with passions stirred up by dangerous magical goodies in the Lord of the Rings - the Ring, palantirs?
Well, the palantiri seem to be quite neutral, and the Ring malevolent. The Silmarils are holy.
Has Feanor created art so perfect that it drives people mad?
Yes. Consider Luthien being consumed, and her life shortened by it.
I’m a bit reminded of Thorin’s obsession with the Arkenstone once he has recovered it in the Hobbit - is that a parallel worth pursuing?
He hasn't! You mean, once he lost it.
5) Presumably Mandos is already aware that Finwe has been murdered. But we readers don't know that yet- what is Tolkien’s purpose in throwing us this puzzle at this point?
Just to give as a sense of impending doom. Nothing serious.
Are we supposed to consider some other interpretation? For example, if Fëanor did give the Silmarils up and die of a broken heart, would that not be like the fate of his mother Miriel?
Excellent!
Are we as readers intended to think of that reference first, then connect it to Finwes death later?
Probably - in which case, was Mandos chiding Feanor for forgetting his mother?
But on the other hand, this might serve as a warning to the Valar not to try too hard and impose their will upon one of the Children. Charactersitically, few heeded his words - as if they didn't know him!
Or perhaps Tolkien was just trying too hard.
Are we to infer this is part of Fëanor’s reluctance to part with the Silmarils?
Nice. But he probably thought afterwards that Mandos knew his father was dead and the question moot, and was deliberately witholding information. Unlike the other Valar, Feanor wasn't really supposed to know Mandos that well.
Or is there another intent?
There might have been some elves watching the Trees, which Feanor simply forgot about. Somehow the Valar did hear the details of the story.
6) Would the Valar have compelled Fëanor to give up his stones? Would they have been right to do so?
In short - yes and no. Had they done that, they would have become on Melkor's moral level. After all - didn't they want the light for Valinor only?
But we can't really know; and it seems a good thing that Manwe was spared the test.
There is an irony (at least) that Fëanor would not willingly hand over the Silmarils, but feels it’s OK to mug the Teleri.
As are the Valar here.
But to be fair to both Feanor and the Valar - it is not so easy for one artist to realise just how much others are attached to their own creations.
Hmm. Is exposing their respective egotisms "being fair"?
7) Fëanor’s outburst about being summoned by Manwe: is he actually accusing the Valar of being part of a conspiracy to steal the Silmarils?
Not really. But he is accusing them (quite correctly) of not thinking him or the Elves in general of any consequence. As Elves will later do with Men.
Oddly enough, it is the Enemy who deigns to think of such lowly beings.
Or is he feeling guilty that he might have been able to save his father?
Might he? Tolkien says no.
But yes, he probably did blame himself. And he has become the only Valinor-born elf who lost both his parents their, and his mentors tried to rob him (as he sees it) at the moment of his bereavement.
Has that concern suddenly (perhaps temporarily) triumphed over his “greedy love” for his possessions?
Again - Tolkien says so.
Or does he wish to have been at Formenos only to have been able to guard his treasures?
No.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 18 2013, 4:18pm
Post #31 of 72
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I feel like he is running the scenario through his mind...
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Do you suppose he considers handing over the Silmarils, even for a moment?
And backs away from the possibility because of how it would pain him. So for a speculative second - maybe - stressing speculative.
Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 18 2013, 4:18pm
Post #32 of 72
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"Oddly enough, it is the Enemy who deigns to think of such lowly beings."- Striking statement!
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7) Fëanor’s outburst about being summoned by Manwe: is he actually accusing the Valar of being part of a conspiracy to steal the Silmarils?
Not really. But he is accusing them (quite correctly) of not thinking him or the Elves in general of any consequence. As Elves will later do with Men.
Oddly enough, it is the Enemy who deigns to think of such lowly beings.
And wizards think of the lowly too! (Gandalf's interest in the apparently useless and silly folk of the Shire rules the fate of many in the Third Age).
I suppose nobody is too lowly for the Enemy either to exploit for his Evil schemes, or to make miserable to demonstrate his power.
Yes, there is a sense in which the Valar seem to regard the Children as...well...Children (or amusing pets, possibly). Which will be seen to be part of the departing Noldor's dissatisfaction.....
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 18 2013, 4:54pm
Post #33 of 72
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It is a strikingly true statement Sador...
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7) Fëanor’s outburst about being summoned by Manwe: is he actually accusing the Valar of being part of a conspiracy to steal the Silmarils?
Not really. But he is accusing them (quite correctly) of not thinking him or the Elves in general of any consequence. As Elves will later do with Men.
Oddly enough, it is the Enemy who deigns to think of such lowly beings. Yes, there is a sense in which the Valar seem to regard the Children as...well...Children (or amusing pets, possibly). Which will be seen to be part of the departing Noldor's dissatisfaction.....
At all the levels of creation there is a certain lack of comprehension. The Valar, being the initial 'children' of Creation never become actual parents and so somehow I think never fully "mature" like the Firstborn do - yet they have a childish love of superficially imitating the Firstborn, but never truly understanding them as more complex than they are given credit for. And of course the Elves both pity and envy Men (for their mortality) and can never understand how Men feel the pressure of Time in a way Elves never will. Men at the bottom of the heap seem to envy everyone else, after the work of the Dark Lords, and the Gift to them is no longer a gift but a curse. So the lowliest do indeed prove to be the most fertile pickings for sowing dissent.
Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 18 2013, 5:00pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 18 2013, 5:08pm
Post #34 of 72
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It probably also answers my earlier question about why Manwe does not see the need for a good speech.//
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Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 18 2013, 5:46pm
Post #35 of 72
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Poetically and practically in Nienna's case
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I think she is a bit unique in mythological creations, for her singularity and for the need for her to hurt and weep in order to heal (like her tears washing away the defilements of Ungoliant at the Green Mound). For example Celtic myth has healing goddesses who weep (like Brigid inventing 'keening') but it's not a healing mechanism in itself. Her lamentations began early in Creation, during the Song as it unfolded and even before the Children or Arda came into being - so I think you are right in saying she has empathy to the extent that it is actually great foresight. So I see the process endlessly cycling through her - pain and suffering are foreseen, and needed for her to heal...and it begins again, and that joy she may get from healing is spawned by the pain that came before.
Knowledge of the pain to come was the necessary beginning of the cycle. So again we see Eru not singing a flat or one-dimensional song, ever.
Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 18 2013, 5:56pm
Post #36 of 72
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True, NoWiz. Very possibly why he is so terse and cryptic...
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if he does not fully appreciate the awful impact of the news, or is simply being paternalistic about how Feanor might react.
Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 18 2013, 5:56pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 18 2013, 7:26pm
Post #37 of 72
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There's a question over here http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=596046#596046
About how fast to post these threads up . Please follow the link. & have your say.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
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telain
Rohan
Apr 18 2013, 7:51pm
Post #38 of 72
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Thank you, NWM! Great questions... Looking forward to more of them... and to Finwe’s Mandos-like announcement of a theory.
1. Like many who have answered before me, I do like the immediacy of this chapter, and I also agree that many of the previous chapters are pointing to this one -- either subtly, or with rather large neon signs and arrows.
I think it is less “eye witness accounts” and more “good storytelling.” I haven’t really thought this point through, but I wonder how this would all sound told orally? I’ve just been reading a book on forests and fairy tales and one of the points is that fairy tales are “frozen” once they’ve been written down. These tales were/are supposed to evolve and mutate -- with each generation and with each audience member, in fact. It seems to me that The Silmarilion is like that -- written and re-written by Tolkien and Christopher. And in fairy tales, quite a bit of the background information is fairly straightforward and unembellished (e.g., “Long ago, there lived an Elf called Fëanor and he was the most gifted and greatest Elf ever.”) but when the moral of the story gets to the telling, then time expands and details are embellished and dialogues ensue that ensure that the audience understands that this part of the story is really important.
2. Interesting question! I think Fëanor recognized the value of the Light of the Two Trees and wondered if he could match it. I think he is so “of the moment”, so responsive and reactive that it would not have occurred to him to make a “back-up”. Come to think of it, he probably lost many important computer files over the years, because he didn’t make proper back-ups...
Yavanna, as others have mentioned, I feel is being hopeful. Perhaps relieved -- here is a way to re-establish the Light! I think after Aulë’s infamous last statement in Of Aulë and Yavanna, she is well-versed in the mind of the artist...
3. I think it is interesting that both Aulë and Yavanna have created great things -- and personally meaningful things -- and have either had them destroyed or threaten to be destroyed. I cannot recall what Tulkas or any of the other Valar would have created and lost.
4. Perhaps things of such pureness of beauty and goodness inspire such dramatic emotions and actions by their very existence. And perhaps it is our relationship with these things that is the source of the passion, rather than the thing itself. (And maybe this is what Tom Bombadil is: completely dispassionate, and therefore not swayed by the One Ring, but that is for another discussion at another time...) My analogy is so pale that I probably should forego it, but here it is anyway. Even fairly “ordinary” beautiful things: art, landscape, music, even people, are coveted. If we cannot keep the thing itself (it would be difficult to transport an entire landscape into your own backyard), we want to keep something “of” that thing: a photograph, a reproduction, recording of a piece of music. I think that sometimes these possessions become part of us (or we think that they do; surely sometimes we want them to). The thing that Tolkien is describing far surpassed anything we could even conceive of in terms of pure beauty and goodness; I imagine the draw of such objects -- to possess them or some aspect of them -- would be ridiculously intense.
As an aside: I wonder if desiring beautiful things is a type of arrogance: we want others to know that we appreciate beautiful things, that we can recognize great beauty. Regardless, there is a desire to be associated with things of great beauty and purity (even horrible things like Ungoliant cannot resist them.) Perhaps, then, the evilness is less about desire and more about “what next?” Do you want to consume them so that no one else can enjoy them, or do you want to protect them from consumption? This idea puts our dear Fëanor on rather shaky ground...
5. Mandos finds all of us irritating. We’re so obvious. Where is the fun in that? Much better to sit back and watch everyone try to guess what you are thinking.
I think Tolkien’s purpose in Mandos’ comment was foreshadowing -- really, really well done foreshadowing. I immediately started thinking, “Fëanor’s decision will rest on false facts...” But truthfully, I didn’t see another decision for him. He’s already on a “time out” for being rash and more than a little self-centred. It seems genuinely in character for me, and if he is thinking about Miriel -- and he might be -- it is so deeply buried that he sees it as part of himself.
6. I don’t think so. As much as Yavanna would have liked the obvious and easy solution, I am not sure any of them would have resorted to that kind of thievery or force. They are so (forgive the term) “meh” about so many things, that I could see them coming up with several other solutions (that might take several millennia, mind you) and end up forgetting about the trees anyway, because Vairë has just finished weaving the Tapestry of Light, and so on and so forth.
7. This is why I give Fëanor quite a bit of credit:
Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their father’s of greater worth?
I think he truly felt guilty that his father died because of his creations and because of his misreading of who Melkor was and what he would do. Of course it doesn’t forgive him all the ills he creates afterward, but I see him as a passionate, inspired, reactionary, and presently devastated person who loves his father more than the Silmarils, and for that I give him some sympathy.
On another note: why did they have to name the place “Ring of Doom?” That has been bothering me for several chapters. Talk about “foreshadowing!” Is there such a thing as retconning a foreshadow?
Also: as much as I love the writing in this chapter -- and I really do -- what is this? ...yet had he said yea at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that his after deeds would have been other than they were .
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 18 2013, 8:08pm
Post #39 of 72
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I agree with your take on the Silmarils, Telain (and other things)
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3. I think it is interesting that both Aulë and Yavanna have created great things -- and personally meaningful things -- and have either had them destroyed or threaten to be destroyed. I cannot recall what Tulkas or any of the other Valar would have created and lost. That's an excellent point. It is some commonality between the spouses, who otherwise have differences in their creations - animate versus inanimate. And I now see I left out an earlier point - you make it clear - that although many of Aule's works are singular, certainly even though the Trees were biological, they are to Yavanna quite personally singular (and very unique as they cannot reproduce or BE reproduced...)
4. Perhaps things of such pureness of beauty and goodness inspire such dramatic emotions and actions by their very existence. And perhaps it is our relationship with these things that is the source of the passion, rather than the thing itself. (And maybe this is what Tom Bombadil is: completely dispassionate, and therefore not swayed by the One Ring, but that is for another discussion at another time...) My analogy is so pale that I probably should forego it, but here it is anyway. Even fairly “ordinary” beautiful things: art, landscape, music, even people, are coveted. If we cannot keep the thing itself (it would be difficult to transport an entire landscape into your own backyard), we want to keep something “of” that thing: a photograph, a reproduction, recording of a piece of music. I think that sometimes these possessions become part of us (or we think that they do; surely sometimes we want them to). The thing that Tolkien is describing far surpassed anything we could even conceive of in terms of pure beauty and goodness; I imagine the draw of such objects -- to possess them or some aspect of them -- would be ridiculously intense. As an aside: I wonder if desiring beautiful things is a type of arrogance: we want others to know that we appreciate beautiful things, that we can recognize great beauty. Regardless, there is a desire to be associated with things of great beauty and purity (even horrible things like Ungoliant cannot resist them.) Perhaps, then, the evilness is less about desire and more about “what next?” Do you want to consume them so that no one else can enjoy them, or do you want to protect them from consumption? This idea puts our dear Fëanor on rather shaky ground... Also cannot agree more. The creation of the Silmarils themselves while seemingly such a worthwhile 'thing' are still now a 'thing' and a such (especially containing such a powerfully attractive energy) become a focus of ownership, jealousy and temptation.
5. Mandos finds all of us irritating. We’re so obvious. Where is the fun in that? Much better to sit back and watch everyone try to guess what you are thinking. Hahaha!!!! Yes we are a thick bunch, to our Mandos. (Power of .....Obscurity!)
Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their father’s of greater worth?
I think he truly felt guilty that his father died because of his creations and because of his misreading of who Melkor was and what he would do. Of course it doesn’t forgive him all the ills he creates afterward, but I see him as a passionate, inspired, reactionary, and presently devastated person who loves his father more than the Silmarils, and for that I give him some sympathy. I do to. And maybe realizing it too late - more of a mortal affliction.
Also: as much as I love the writing in this chapter -- and I really do -- what is this? (Is this JRRT or CT editing? Anyone know?) **chuckle** ...yet had he said yea at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that his after deeds would have been other than they were .
Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.
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Finwe
Lorien
Apr 18 2013, 8:13pm
Post #40 of 72
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I remember the very question about the name 'Ring of Doom' being asked in the past. I have always interpreted the word doom in the most modern sense, which typically means 'fate' or 'ill destiny' or 'ruin' or something of that nature. When Tolkien uses the word doom, however, I believe he intends it to mean 'judgement', which is an older definition that has (mostly) gotten swept aside by our more modern definition. So Ring of Doom really means Ring of Judgement, which makes much more sense. Similarly, the "Tears unnumbered ye shall shed" speech Mandos gives to the fleeing Noldor later on in this chapter is often referred to as the Doom of Mandos. Again, doom implies judgement in this sense. Mandos is delivering the judgement of Manwe to Feanor and the rest of the Noldor.
As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 18 2013, 10:25pm
Post #41 of 72
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Honestly, it always sounds corny to me.
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I wish he'd picked a different name for it. And then there's Mount Doom, where "doom" has a different, darker connotation.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 18 2013, 10:52pm
Post #42 of 72
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was to call it the "ring of mood," because the valar are so capricious.
but then he just reversed the spelling.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 18 2013, 11:23pm
Post #43 of 72
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The Hexagon of Happiness. That would explain why Nienna avoided it and lived far away. And explain why Ulmo, the Vala of Good Taste, also avoided it. But it wouldn't sound so dreary. You just don't expect anything good to happen at the Ring of Doom.
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telain
Rohan
Apr 19 2013, 2:04am
Post #44 of 72
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...a strange connection, but maybe not so after a bit of explanation.
My husband teaches a course on cultural/social ideas of tourism and we've talked quite a bit about some of the things we do when we are on vacation: taking photographs, collecting souvenirs, buying postcards. It all seemed like wanting a part of "that thing you saw while on vacation." And it made me think about possessing (especially the Silmarils, since we've been discussing it so much lately) and why it is we want to possess certain things, especially beautiful and special things, things not everyone gets to see or appreciate.
I like what you said about Feanor "realizing too late - a mortal affliction." Absolutely! My heart sank when that part of the chapter...
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telain
Rohan
Apr 19 2013, 2:18am
Post #45 of 72
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logistical problems with "Ring of Mood"
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If it were "Ring of Mood" wouldn't it have to change colour? And given the mood swings happening in this chapter, I imagine that would be rather dazzling... or rather muddy...
To Finwe's point: could it be Amphitheatre of Acumen, or Wheel of Wisdom... Disc of Discrimination?
Hexagon of Happiness! I think Nienna isn't the only one who would have to live a certain distance away...
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 19 2013, 2:39am
Post #46 of 72
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The odd thing about a vacation I really enjoy is that I do want to take back something, so I do. Then I get home, stick it on a shelf somewhere or wear it if it's a t-shirt, and pretty quickly I think, "Why did I bother bringing that back?"
There is something primal about connecting a physical object to an experience, so you keep your grandmother's china set or father's favorite tie or whatever, and you take home souvenir things from trips, and it's all about keeping the experience alive through possessing something connected to it.
The Silmarils were connected to the bliss of the Trees in their prime, and became the only memory/souvenir (French lesson: those words are the same) of it. It is for that reason that I think the Valar wanted them back, even after the Trees had died and the jewels could no longer revive them. There's that sense of loss after the defeat of Morgoth when Feanor's sons run off with the two Silmarils, and victory seems robbed of joy. Why? Hadn't they beaten the ultimate bad guy? Isn't there joy enough in that? But the host of Valinor wanted to bring home that memory of what they had lost forever. I can understand that.
For Feanor, I think possession came from two sources: 1) he rightly was proud of the Silmarils and wanted to keep them, and 2) he knew others enjoyed them, even without desiring to steal them, and possessing them secretly in Formenos denied that pleasure to others, and somehow that made him happy. Which is sick, but consistent with a sociopathic mind. Would somehow winning them back from Morgoth have brought him pleasure? Would they be a memory connection to his father? Or would he have continued to hoard them to deny them to others as his chief "pleasure," if you can all it that?
Spite is something Feanor had in common with Morgoth. It seems to me that Morgoth took pleasure sitting in his throne room thinking, "I have the Silmarils, and no one else does." Pure spite. He couldn't even touch them without burning himself, and they weighed heavily on his head. Possessing them brought no direct joy to him--pain instead. If he stole them as a surrogate for Varda, they rejected him just as she did.
What if Aule manufactured a thousand Silmarils after they were stolen? That would make Morgoth's useless. Would he have still wanted them for their own beauty, or thrown them away in disgust? He could no longer hurt others by possessing them, so what would be the point in keeping them?
So it seems to me that the Valar desired the Silmarils for a worthy reason, and of course all of Morgoth's reasons are usually bad ones. One of the many ways that Feanor went wrong was to stop valuing the Silmarils for the beauty they brought into the world, that others could admire and enjoy, and to start using them as a sort of weapon of social spite. That estranged the artist from his art, and by betraying his strongest gift as an artist, he hollowed himself out, which could explain why he became remorseless and soulless in all that followed.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 19 2013, 2:40am
Post #47 of 72
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If Doom = Fate, and Fate = Fortune, how about Wheel of Fortune? //
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Maciliel
Valinor
Apr 19 2013, 3:24am
Post #48 of 72
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1) I note how direct and immediate the writing has become: we seem to be right in there in the meeting with them, rather than the style of earlier chapters, which report distant events much less directly. Do you feel there is a deliberate progression here for stylistic effect through the book? If so, does it work for you? Or does it depend on the various versions and edits from which each chapter was assembled (or the extent to which Tolkien had imagined the scene visually)? Or are we reflecting what information might have been available to the imagined in-world writer/editor of the Silmarillion?
not sure if it began deliberately or came about organically, but at some point, it probably became a conscious choice. also, i wonder if tolkien found it easier to identify with the elves, rather than the god-like valar, and that is partly the reason for the shift.
And similarly, when we get onto the confrontation between melkor/Morgoth and Ungoliant, there can’t plausibly have been any witnesses to interview: we would have to be back to reconstruction, and perhaps that explains a shift back to less immediate language? Or not - what do you think?
if begun as a literary device, it quickly falls apart, so i don't hold it to a construct, strictly. perhaps this text comes not originally from elven scribes, but from vaire, who apparently sees everything, as everything is recorded in her weaving. then vaire discussed it with someone.
2) Fëanor’s “foresight” - do we think Fëanor might really have been motivated (consciously or unconsciously) to make a sort of Light-of-the Trees emergency backup, or is Yavanna merely saying that what started out as a pure art project now has a practical use? Or is it a way of flattering him, to increase the chances of him handing over the family jewels. Or does Yavanna not understand the working's of the artificer's mind (despite being married to one)?
i think feanor created them out of inspiration. the trees inspired him, fired him, and he did not rest until he either failed or succeeded. he had a vision, and pursued it to its end, as many artists do.
i think yavanna was speaking emotionally, not with any calculation. i think she was projecting foresight onto feanor, but i do not think it actually existed. i think yavanna understands the mind of a creator well enough. -- but not all creators have the same feelings about their creations. i've been extremely protective of my art and my writing, but i've met other artists who wouldn't necessarily choose to toss one of their paintings out of the window of a burning house, because they can always paint another. artists may feel differently about their creations, and if you're not working in the same medium (e.g., painting vs. writing) you might not get the value that someone else's work has for that person.
another difference is in the spirit of creation, and what one does with the created.
feanor seems to have gotten to a point where he's not only creating for himself, but he's hoarding his creations. the valar aren't really much better. true, the light of the trees was made for many in valinor -- but it's only in valinor. the moriquendi are out of luck. the valar have abandoned them, which i do not understand at all, and is negligent on a god-like scale.
if feanor had sacrificed the silmarils (which i think was the better choice), the light of the trees would have been restored -- for valinor. tough luck, moriquendi.
3) Interesting that it is Aule who intervenes to remind them all what the Silmarils mean to Fëanor. Is Aule thinking back to the unfortunate incident about the dwarves? Many of the Valar have been great creators of things - you’d think that many of them would understand. Perhaps especially Yavanna, who needs Fëanor’s lesser creation to save her greater one.
i don't get the feeling that aule was really thinking of the dwarves, just relating to an artist who shares a lot of his media.
4) Apart from this (possibly accidental) role as a potential tree medicine, I don’t believe the Silmarils have a practical purpose: it is pure art stirring up these dark passions. Is that deliberate on Tolkien’s part, do you think? What I mean is that wanting the Silmarils is not bound up with wanting them for something, because the don’t do anything (burn your hand and then make a most uncomfortable crown, seems to be about it). And so the passions they stir up - pride, envy, covetousness, greed, suspicion could be said to be in a pure form. Is there an interesting contrast with passions stirred up by dangerous magical goodies in the Lord of the Rings - the Ring, palantirs? People want those, or to deny them to others at least in part for what they can do. Has Feanor created art so perfect that it drives people mad? I’m a bit reminded of Thorin’s obsession with the Arkenstone once he has recovered it in the Hobbit - is that a parallel worth pursuing?
no, i do not think this is the "purest form of art." it's art, yes, but what makes the silmarils special is that they're filled with the tree-light. it's yavanna's art which everyone keens for. feanor made lovely settings.
melkor is drawn to the silmarils, not just because of their beauty, but primarily because of their light... the light of the trees. in the "of the silmarils" chapter, it is written that they shone like the stars of varda. varda herself, i get the feeling, is light embodied, which is probably why melkor wanted her, before all the valar came into being in arda. light, life... i think there's a connection. they may not be the holy fire that is the essence of fea, but i think they're a kindred sort, which is another reason melkor lusts after them, as another rolling theme with him is the desire to create life, like eru.
i also think, on a certain level, melkor can't help himself. about his lust for the light, i mean (he certainly has control over his actions). every step he's taken has distanced him from what he craves. if he could just govern himself and live in harmony with others and with the music, he'd have all the light he could want.
5) “Not the first to be slain” says Mandos, in response to Fëanor’s melodramatic claim that surrendering the Silmarils will be the death of him. (I do find Mandos irritating!) Presumably Mandos is already aware that Finwe has been murdered. But we readers don't know that yet- what is Tolkien’s purpose in throwing us this puzzle at this point? Are we supposed to consider some other interpretation? For example, if Fëanor did give the Silmarils up and die of a broken heart, would that not be like the fate of his mother Miriel? Are we as readers intended to think of that reference first, then connect it to Finwes death later? Are we to infer this is part of Fëanor’s reluctance to part with the Silmarils? Or is there another intent?
i think an artful interpretation would be that mandos meant miriel, but i rather think tolkien/mandos was thinking finwe. it's a dramatic moment. and mandos -- what could it hurt at this point to let the rest of valinor know that finwe is dead?
btw, this statement of feanor's +reeks+ of narcissism. the first to be slain in arda would be his +mother+, miriel. perhaps he meant died unwillingly, which then would not be narcissistic. i think the statement can be read either way, and feanor does not have a good track record of thinking of others.
6) Would the Valar have compelled Fëanor to give up his stones? Would they have been right to do so? Perhaps related to this - there is a recurring theme about the uniqueness and non-reproducibility of someone’s greatest achievement. Yavanna cannot remake the trees; Fëanor cannot remake the Silmarils; and later, the elves of the Teleri will not give up their beautiful ships to carry the Noldor away (Fëanor and his followers take them by force). There is an irony (at least) that Fëanor would not willingly hand over the Silmarils, but feels it’s OK to mug the Teleri.
no, it would have been supremely thuggish for the valar to make feanor give up the silmarils. also, while i do not begrudge the teleri +at all+ for wanting to keep the works of their heart (their ships), perhaps they as well became victims of loving the work of their hands too much. but they also did not wish to be seen as aiding the noldor.
but at that point, there was no kinslaying -- so the noldor wanting to leave valinor was wrong... how?
and yes -- and of course -- feanor only sees what feanor wants, only sees what's best for feanor. at this point, i think we can stop pointing the finger at miriel.
i'm certainly sorry that he never knew his mother, but consider all of his advantages:
1. superior intellect
2. superior artistry
3. father who loved and indulged him
4. wife with whom he had much bliss
5. seven children to love
6. immortality
7. immortality in the bliss of valinor, during the era of the two trees (again -- tough luck, moriquendi)
8. no disease
9. unwavering strength, endurance, flexibility, general health
10. didn't have to worry about keeping a roof over his head
11. didn't have to worry how he would feed himself or his family
12. able to do pretty much with his own time.
13. many more years than your average edain to work out lots of his personal issues -- and to help him, he's got all the valar and maiar.
yes, feanor has suffered, but... please. speaking as a mortal edain, i've had more to deal with and fewer resources with which to do it.
7) Fëanor’s outburst about being summoned by Manwe: is he actually accusing the Valar of being part of a conspiracy to steal the Silmarils? Or is he feeling guilty that he might have been able to save his father? Has that concern suddenly (perhaps temporarily) triumphed over his “greedy love” for his possessions? Or does he wish to have been at Formenos only to have been able to guard his treasures?
no, he is just entirely grief-stricken. who could blame him in this?
i do have a quibble with tolkien, however. tolkien appears to be a little in love with feanor, and gives him a pass on a lot of egregious behavior. this line is not feanor's it's tolkien's (i'm paraphrasing): "and who amongs sons of elves or men have held their fathers in greater worth?"
i think that's just too much. i suspect most elves and edain loved their fathers just as much.
---- ooooo -- out of questions. ok, time to post this epic.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 19 2013, 3:30am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 19 2013, 10:03am
Post #49 of 72
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I've started threads for the rest of this chapter
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There are two of them:
One for the scene in which Melkor (aka Morgoth) and Ungoliant fall out over the spoils
One for the third scene in this chapter, which directly continues the action in Valinor (which comprises the first scene; the material we have been discussing in this thread).
Why two treads simultaneously? Firstly I wanted to "crack on" a bit, so that hosts of upcoming chapters get to do their bit roughly when they expected.
Second, some contributors to this thread were needing to hold back on comments, about what is driving the Noldor and the Valar apart (a subject more easily discussed once we've got to the Noldor's exodus).
I think it will work! I don't see much interconnection between these two scenes. But if you conclude "we hates it, we hates it forever!" do say - useful information for the hosts of future chapters.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
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