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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Oh dear, Ro's been thinking again.

Roheryn
Grey Havens

Apr 10 2013, 9:42am

Post #1 of 46 (2532 views)
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Oh dear, Ro's been thinking again. Can't Post

So, most of us have had the DVD for a little while now, with time to watch and rewatch the whole movie, or just our favourite parts, hopefully to our heart’s content. Naturally, if I’ve been watching the movie a bit, I start Thinking. Here’s my latest round of observations, thoughts, and a few Questions That Need Answering.

1. Can anyone explain just how the front gate of Erebor got sealed (as per Balin’s comment in Bag End) after Smaug blasted his way through it? Is it sealed just metaphorically (i.e., due to Smaug’s presence), sort of like balrogs having wings? Or has Smaug sealed himself inside? Or…?

2. You’re puttering around the house with the movie playing. What one scene always brings you running back to the TV to watch? And which scene still always makes you smile?

3. Am I the only one who missed a lot of the background dialogue that’s so delightfully revealed by the subtitles?

4. The angle of the point of Bilbo’s ears is somewhat back of vertical, which is accentuated when he looks up. In an animal with pricky-up pointy ears (e.g., horses, some dogs, for starters), this angle suggests a general feeling of mild annoyance or bebotherment, or hesitancy, or similar. Not curiosity, eagerness, or enthusiasm. I’m not sure this angle was intentional, but I think it’s perfectly suited to his character. (Look at his ears when he’s sitting in the chair in Bag End talking to Gandalf, recovering with his tea, for a good example.)

5. The mountain-shaped theme that first plays in the prologue when Thorin shakes his fist at the mountain and never forgives or forgets is played in two other places (that I’ve picked up, at least): when Nori, Bofur, and Gloin bury the troll-chest, and when Bilbo defends Thorin’s body near the end. Given that we hear this in those three places, what is this theme representing? I’m very curious about this particular one.

6. Just before the troll scene, we see Bofur serving up the stew that Bombur fixed, and then thanks to the subtitles we can hear Gloin telling him it’s not a bad stew, he’s had worse; and Nori teasing that Dori could have made it. The trolls are also fixing a pot of stew, and giving the cook a hard time. Complaining about dinner is universal.

7. Orcrist really *does* sing in battle (as Thorin hollers “Hold your ground!” just before Rivendell). I’d thought it was a continuity error, with Thorin drawing the sword even though we’d just seen him holding it – but it’s not. He’s clearly not drawing it, he’s just raising it. And Orcrist is “singing” away. Cool beans. (I’m not the first one to notice this, but I wasn’t sure I believed it at first!)

8. I love the warmer, more personable Elrond we have in AUJ, compared to Elrond in LOTR. This Elrond is "as kind as summer", just like in the book.

9. When Radagast plows through the company just outside the troll cave, Thorin and Dwalin stand side-by-side, with Kili in front of them, swords and war hammer at the ready. Bombur is standing firmly *behind* those three, bravely wielding his giant soup ladle. He cracks me up!

10. I think Fili also has a magic ring of invisibility. He slipped it on just before they Company is brought before the Goblin King. Has anyone spotted him there? I tried hard today and couldn’t.

11. Are we *ever* going to get to see Gandalf do his pointy hat trick? And does Bofur have a floppy hat trick?


jimmyfenn
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 10:34am

Post #2 of 46 (1552 views)
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but.. [In reply to] Can't Post

balrogs do have wings...

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


Angharad73
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 10:45am

Post #3 of 46 (1569 views)
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The Front Gate of Erebor [In reply to] Can't Post

You know, I was actually just wondering the same thing, when I watched the DVD again last night. Did someone go back and brick it up to lock Smaug inside? Tongue

Speaking of doors, to me Bilbo's door does not look like it was painted a week before the Dwarves arrive. When Gandalf makes his mark on the door, it looks like rather old paint. Or am I wrong there?

I haven't watched the DVD with the subtitles yet (well, I only got it yesterday...), but I definitely have to do that. I seem to have missed a whole lot of background dialogue...

I also love Elrond in AUJ. He seems to have a nice sense of humour (for an Elf), and he doesn't say "Doom" all the time (although the word does sound rather nice and ominous when he says it in LOTR - I try to say it just like him now, not that I get to say it often, although I do try to drop it into conversations every now and then).

Fili is conspicuously absent for a while in the Goblin cave. I do wonder what he was doing. Nip outside to have a smoke? (Although I'm sure it's just becasue of something like the actor swap for the part).

Yes, what exactly *is* the Gandalf's pointy hat trick?

Dangerous business, thinking... with the AUJ DVD playing.


The Prancing Pony
Rivendell

Apr 10 2013, 11:11am

Post #4 of 46 (1466 views)
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My thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Maybe he blocks it with broken rocks. In the book he wonders why he never blocked the little door (leading, of course, to the back entrance), and I always supposed he meant to do it that way. Though, admittedly, the front gate is much larger.

4. Very interesting observation.

5. I have to pay attention to that the next time. *impatiently waiting for April 19th to finally come*

7. I noticed the "singing" too, when I was in the cinema. But then I thought it was only me imagining things. I'm glad you heard it too.
Something similar happens in Goblintown, I believe, when the Goblin King sees the "Biter". A real elvish sword, I guess, showing it's displeasure at all the goblins and orcs, ready to bite Cool

8. I recently watched FOTR again and the change in Elrond from AUJ is amazing. In FOTR there is so much weight and responsibility upon his shoulders, whereas in AUJ he is much more lighthearted. Not tra-la-la-lally, but not reminding everyone that they're doomed either.

9. Bombur does a lot of great things in the background, even if he only mumbles. I don't mind that he doesn't really talk. I love how he is totally unimpressed when Thorin holds his speech in Bag End, all the while chewing his cookie.

11. Pointy hat trick? Did I miss something?

"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."


L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens


Apr 10 2013, 11:18am

Post #5 of 46 (1451 views)
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Bombur's probably as deadly with a ladle as Sam with a frying pan.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 



"123456!... password!... password1!... password2!... Gimli, do you know Durin's date of birth? Thanks. 140457!... mithril@!... mithril#!... maltbeer!... qwerty!... Legolas, do your elf eyes see any post-its lying around the base of the cliff?"


The Grey Elf
Grey Havens


Apr 10 2013, 12:03pm

Post #6 of 46 (1466 views)
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Elrond's expression [In reply to] Can't Post

After he invites the dwarfs to supper in Elvish always makes me wonder if he's rather enjoying the dwarfs' befuddlement or if Hugo Weaving was just having a hard time keeping a straight face. This is one of those scenes that always makes me Smile.


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Apr 10 2013, 1:57pm

Post #7 of 46 (1610 views)
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Good observations! [In reply to] Can't Post


1. Can anyone explain just how the front gate of Erebor got sealed (as per Balin’s comment in Bag End) after Smaug blasted his way through it? Is it sealed just metaphorically (i.e., due to Smaug’s presence), sort of like balrogs having wings? Or has Smaug sealed himself inside? Or…?


That same question just occurred to me last night! At the end of the movie, as the thrush returns past the front gate, it just looks kind of dark and burned—there is no obvious sealing. But my hunch is that Smaug blocked it up himself, because in the book he thinks to himself that he ought to have blocked up the little opening that leads to the secret door.

2. You’re puttering around the house with the movie playing. What one scene always brings you running back to the TV to watch? And which scene still always makes you smile?

I can’t putter while it’s playing—I have to be watching!—with the exception of two scenes: Azog at Weathertop and the White Council meeting. There aren’t any dwarves to watch. Cool

3. Am I the only one who missed a lot of the background dialogue that’s so delightfully revealed by the subtitles?

I keep meaning to watch it with subtitles but haven't yet. They would be very helpful to solve a conflict in our house over the moon runes scene. Mr. Riven Delve insists that after Elrond says, "So this is your purpose, to enter the mountain?", Thorin replies, "[Phrase that can also be expressed by a vulgar gesture], Elf!" but all I can hear is "What of it?" Angelic No doubt the subtitles will clear this up. Wink

4. The angle of the point of Bilbo’s ears is somewhat back of vertical, which is accentuated when he looks up. In an animal with pricky-up pointy ears (e.g., horses, some dogs, for starters), this angle suggests a general feeling of mild annoyance or bebotherment, or hesitancy, or similar. Not curiosity, eagerness, or enthusiasm. I’m not sure this angle was intentional, but I think it’s perfectly suited to his character. (Look at his ears when he’s sitting in the chair in Bag End talking to Gandalf, recovering with his tea, for a good example.)

Nice observation! How about the angle of this shot, the morning after the party as he looks down at the contract, then looks up again, considering… What do you think?


7. Orcrist really *does* sing in battle (as Thorin hollers “Hold your ground!” just before Rivendell). I’d thought it was a continuity error, with Thorin drawing the sword even though we’d just seen him holding it – but it’s not. He’s clearly not drawing it, he’s just raising it. And Orcrist is “singing” away. Cool beans. (I’m not the first one to notice this, but I wasn’t sure I believed it at first!)

I love that too! I think Orcrist is thrilled to be out of the troll hoard and back in action again. (I'd recommend a refresher course in sensing orcs/goblins, though! That's a whole 'nother topic...Wink)

8. I love the warmer, more personable Elrond we have in AUJ, compared to Elrond in LOTR. This Elrond is "as kind as summer", just like in the book.

Agreed. And he is unfailiingly gracious to Thorin, considering how rude Thorin is being... But I really hope in the EE and in TABA we see more interaction between Elrond and Bilbo. We really need to see their relationship develop to explain why Bilbo loves Rivendell so much.


10. I think Fili also has a magic ring of invisibility. He slipped it on just before they Company is brought before the Goblin King. Has anyone spotted him there? I tried hard today and couldn’t.

And here he is! (You know, that blondish bit behind Bombur?) Yep, that’s pretty much all we can see of Fili in the Great Goblin huddle—when we see him at all.


You just keep on with the thinking, Ro. Cool I really enjoy your observations, so thanks for posting!






"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment

(This post was edited by Riven Delve on Apr 10 2013, 2:06pm)


Elwen
Lorien


Apr 10 2013, 2:15pm

Post #8 of 46 (1355 views)
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Now I have to watch it again.... [In reply to] Can't Post

and apparently put the subtitles on.

Before kids, exercising with LOTR meant listening to the soundtrack while I ran.

After kids, exercising with LOTR means having an all out dance party with the little ones to the "Break the Dam Release the River" disco mix form the Lego game.


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Apr 10 2013, 2:22pm

Post #9 of 46 (1388 views)
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I think Elrond is enjoying his revenge [In reply to] Can't Post

for Thorin's remark, "He never mentioned you." Evil That was an obnoxious remark, but the "retribution" is actually quite kind. And funny.


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Apr 10 2013, 3:08pm

Post #10 of 46 (1323 views)
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Same here! [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't watched with subtitles yet. Perhaps if I can get Mr. the Green to stop watching Star Trek for an evening...Tongue

'"Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb.'


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Apr 10 2013, 3:18pm

Post #11 of 46 (1344 views)
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I love it when you think, Ro! [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't watched with subtitles yet, perhaps this evening!

One scene that I always have to watch is the scene in Rivendell, when the Dwarves are attempting to eat the food the Elves served. There is a woman that plays the flute, and for some reason to me she seems SO annoying! Perhaps it's the smug look on her face, but it looks like she is deliberately trying to annoy the Dwarves. I always think of this as the "tra-la-la-lally" scene. I can sympathize with Oin as he stuffs his napkin into his ear trumpet. Tongue

'"Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb.'


Angharad73
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 3:28pm

Post #12 of 46 (1331 views)
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He does enjoy teasing them [In reply to] Can't Post

Doesn't he? Juuust a little bit. But he does it nicely. And Thorin does deserve a little put down for being rude.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Apr 10 2013, 3:35pm

Post #13 of 46 (1324 views)
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Makes no sense for it to be blocked... [In reply to] Can't Post

...since Smaug needs to go in and out to hunt, presumably?Though perhaps they thought the audience would wonder why the Burglahobbit didn't just sneak in the front door instead of the secret door... Wink

Also, if the noise from a tiny thrush knocking outside echoes like that right down through the mountain then those Dwarves have no chance blundering around trying to find the secret door without being heard! Crazy


In Reply To

1. Can anyone explain just how the front gate of Erebor got sealed (as per Balin’s comment in Bag End) after Smaug blasted his way through it? Is it sealed just metaphorically (i.e., due to Smaug’s presence), sort of like balrogs having wings? Or has Smaug sealed himself inside? Or…?


That same question just occurred to me last night! At the end of the movie, as the thrush returns past the front gate, it just looks kind of dark and burned—there is no obvious sealing. But my hunch is that Smaug blocked it up himself, because in the book he thinks to himself that he ought to have blocked up the little opening that leads to the secret door.



"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






The Prancing Pony
Rivendell

Apr 10 2013, 3:48pm

Post #14 of 46 (1328 views)
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Oin [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder whether Oin stuffs his napkin into his ear trumpet because he's annoyed by the playing elves, or because he doesn't want to risk Dwalin pouring beer into it again.
Laugh

"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Apr 10 2013, 3:50pm

Post #15 of 46 (1317 views)
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Well, he hasn't been seen in sixty years... [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe sixty-one years ago he'd had a large town for supper and decided to block up the entrance just afterward so he could have a little digestion nap in peace. I suspect that the stone giants could have an all-out battle nearby and Smaug wouldn't care. But as soon as someone starts tap-tap-tapping at his mountain...then his treasure-guarding dragon senses are set off. (No home security system needed.) I'm also assuming Smaug could unblock it (or just burn it up) at will.


In Reply To
Also, if the noise from a tiny thrush knocking outside echoes like that right down through the mountain then those Dwarves have no chance blundering around trying to find the secret door without being heard! Crazy



Absolutely. That's why Gandalf insists they need a burglar--and a good one too. Wink



"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment


Old Toby
Grey Havens


Apr 10 2013, 4:48pm

Post #16 of 46 (1267 views)
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Nice post as usual Ro! [In reply to] Can't Post

See, now you're making me want to watch it again with subtitles this time. Of course the problem is, whenever Thorin is on screen, I won't be looking at the subtitles! LOL! (You know of what I speak!) Angelic

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Kimtc
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 7:16pm

Post #17 of 46 (1244 views)
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I always come back to see Azanulbizar [In reply to] Can't Post

because Thorin's hair. He throws it around a lot, and it's all about the hair.

The scene that makes me smile is Bilbo describing how to cook dwarf. Kili's reactions are great, and the look on Bombur's face (upside down) when Bilbo says he has worms in his tubes is excellent. And I think Thorin's hair also looks good there, as well.


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 10 2013, 7:32pm

Post #18 of 46 (1229 views)
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Subtitle question ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is the Necromancer's voice subtitled in the Dol Guldur scene? For the live of me, I cannot hear "Radagast".

I know it was subtitled in the film in many foreign languages. Can anyone confirm whether it's on the DVD?

Thanks. Smile


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Apr 10 2013, 7:40pm

Post #19 of 46 (1212 views)
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Was wondering, does Gollum refer to the Ring as his birthday present at any point? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just re-read the book (which, WOW you have to try out after seeing the movie, you get so many more references) anyway, I got chills when Gollum said "birthday present" and realised I don't think he says it in the film.

On a related note. In FotR they say hobbits traditionally give presents on their birthdays rather than receiving them. So shouldn't Smeagol have given Deagol the Ring?


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 10 2013, 7:56pm

Post #20 of 46 (1194 views)
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Maybe just hobbits in the Shire? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In FotR they say hobbits traditionally give presents on their birthdays rather than receiving them. So shouldn't Smeagol have given Deagol the Ring?


Or perhaps their traditions just changed in the 500 years or so that Gollum had the ring.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 10 2013, 8:51pm

Post #21 of 46 (1230 views)
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Thinking about YOUR thoughts.... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1. Can anyone explain just how the front gate of Erebor got sealed (as per Balin’s comment in Bag End) after Smaug blasted his way through it? Is it sealed just metaphorically (i.e., due to Smaug’s presence), sort of like balrogs having wings? Or has Smaug sealed himself inside? Or…? I felt from the first that he sealed himself inside - he has all those staircases and walkways he could pull down to block up the doorway, and if he wanted to sashay out he could just knock them aside. And as others have posted the reference to blocking up the small hole probably means he has done it before. (I love at the table when Balin brings that up Thorin looks so crestfallen - Balin, stop harshing my Du Bekar buzz....)

2. You’re puttering around the house with the movie playing. What one scene always brings you running back to the TV to watch? And which scene still always makes you smile?
ONE????!! Blunt the Knives (smiling) Thorin at the door (knees a bit wobbly). Rivendell dinner scene. Thorin facing down Azog, and I always have to watch that quick shot of Fili's face as the eagles swoop in.

3. Am I the only one who missed a lot of the background dialogue that’s so delightfully revealed by the subtitles?
That's so clever! Haven't tried it yet!

5. The mountain-shaped theme that first plays in the prologue when Thorin shakes his fist at the mountain and never forgives or forgets is played in two other places (that I’ve picked up, at least): when Nori, Bofur, and Gloin bury the troll-chest, and when Bilbo defends Thorin’s body near the end. Given that we hear this in those three places, what is this theme representing? I’m very curious about this particular one.
Its a diverse use. I am as you know a musical australopithecine, but maybe 'Dwarf pride' or 'spirit'...Dwarves being essential Dwarves? The odd reference is when Thorin is knocked out; but his choice of hopeless battle versus an honorless death by falling could be said to be quintessentially Dwarven in spirit...and maybe Bilbo standing over him captures that spirit of stubborn loyalty too, so it applies to his actions in the moment? This point could almost use a thread of its own, as the complexity of the use of this signature is not one that leaps easily to mind; so I think HS is trying to tell us something with it.

6. Just before the troll scene, we see Bofur serving up the stew that Bombur fixed, and then thanks to the subtitles we can hear Gloin telling him it’s not a bad stew, he’s had worse; and Nori teasing that Dori could have made it. The trolls are also fixing a pot of stew, and giving the cook a hard time. Complaining about dinner is universal.
So true!!! Will have to try the subtitles trick.

7. Orcrist really *does* sing in battle (as Thorin hollers “Hold your ground!” just before Rivendell). I’d thought it was a continuity error, with Thorin drawing the sword even though we’d just seen him holding it – but it’s not. He’s clearly not drawing it, he’s just raising it. And Orcrist is “singing” away. Cool beans. (I’m not the first one to notice this, but I wasn’t sure I believed it at first!)
In real life the temper is so sweet it makes that noise if you quickly run a finger either up or down the blade....Smile I do that a lot.

8. I love the warmer, more personable Elrond we have in AUJ, compared to Elrond in LOTR. This Elrond is "as kind as summer", just like in the book.
So do I. I love both the scripting and HW. Like when Gandalf tells him that their interest in the map "is mostly academic" Elrond clearly doesn't believe it but generously reads the letters anyway; and that smile about Gandalf never being dressed for dinner!

10. I think Fili also has a magic ring of invisibility. He slipped it on just before they Company is brought before the Goblin King. Has anyone spotted him there? I tried hard today and couldn’t. Okay I went frame-by-frame - you are correct my friend I cannot spot him. The placement schematic of the 12 Dwarves I do see is consistent but I never see Fili. (Was this shot during the casting change?) And making me look for Fili - really Ro you know how difficult that is.....Evil

11. Are we *ever* going to get to see Gandalf do his pointy hat trick? And does Bofur have a floppy hat trick?
Haha...but maybe Gandalf will stick some gum in Legolas' hair if he is uppity at BO5A (is that what softens his character?) I bet Bofur has A LOT of hat tricks up his adorable sleeve....


Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 10 2013, 9:04pm

Post #22 of 46 (1154 views)
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hobbit-kind versus Shire Hobbits [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
In FotR they say hobbits traditionally give presents on their birthdays rather than receiving them. So shouldn't Smeagol have given Deagol the Ring?


Or perhaps their traditions just changed in the 500 years or so that Gollum had the ring.




Gandalf refers to the Smeagol's people as 'hobbit-kind' (no capital H) and also tells of Deagol saying he gave an expensive gift already - so I think the cultures are different enough that this particular custom is not held in common, especially since Sméagol's people seem to be a bit 'diminished' and less wise in lore than Shire Hobbits; so maybe the high-minded custom of giving birthday-gifts away to others has eluded them. Though of course Gollum and Bilbo have enough in common to Riddle together.

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Apr 10 2013, 9:46pm

Post #23 of 46 (1143 views)
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Even better hair-tossing [In reply to] Can't Post

is when Thorin's in the mouth of the white warg. I think that's my favourite hair-throwing scene.

Second runner-up (after Azanulbizar, which I agree is quite delicious!) is when he hollers "DRAGON!" in the prologue. He flings his hair sooooo majestically as he leans over the balcony to yell into the depths below.

Oooh, and another great hair-tossing moment is when he yells "WAKE UP!" just after Sting glows blue in the goblins' front porch.

Maybe we need to start a poll: Favorite Hair Scenes.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 10 2013, 9:48pm

Post #24 of 46 (1114 views)
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That's what I'm thinking [In reply to] Can't Post

I think they're just different enough cultures. Doesn't really bother me, especially since they're five hundred years apart or something like that. I imagine I quite a lot of different customs than people who lived in the 1500s. Same with the hobbits. Also, they're in different geographical areas, so that will bring cultural differences.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Esmeralda
Bree


Apr 10 2013, 9:48pm

Post #25 of 46 (1144 views)
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2. I haven't got to the point [In reply to] Can't Post

where I can walk away from the movie yet (only my 15th viewing or so...), but I can pretty much take it with me on my laptop wherever I go, so it's not much of an issue. The weather was so nice last evening, I was watching my streaming copy on the deck with ear-buds in.

3. I have watched it with the sub-titles, though now that I know what everyone's saying, I find them too distracting to keep on.

6. Now you mention it, there may be an additional joke going on there, since Mark (Ori) plays Bert the troll, who *is* the one cooking the stew. Peter (Gloin) also plays William Troll, so perhaps he has had worse, in a way.

10. Dean has made specific references to how hot and difficult it was to film the Goblin chase, so he must have been there for some of it. I'm pretty sure I spotted him behind one of Thorin's lovely twirls (very difficult to tear away the eyes), but perhaps the scene with the Goblin King was done at another time. Surprised they wouldn't at least have used a body-double - like I assume they did with Fili-inna-sack at the Troll-shaw, but maybe the shots were too close. I'd really like to know what they filmed when, so we'd know where they had to get creative about showing Fili, and where they might have had to do re-shoots.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Apr 10 2013, 9:52pm

Post #26 of 46 (1098 views)
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Yes, it is. [In reply to] Can't Post

And yes, the subtitles do have him saying "Radagast". I can sort of hear it, drawn out, but I wouldn't hear it if I didn't know what he said, if that makes sense.

Watching with the subtitles on is really quite interesting: I'm actually quite impressed at how much background dialogue goes on that I completely missed in 17 viewings in the theatre, but now that I know it's there, I can hear most of it just fine.

I think my favourite such line is Dwalin in Bag End grumping "Oh, you great galumphing git!" just as the camera cuts to Fili walking across the table handing out ale. Never noticed that line before, and it cracks me up! Not sure who he's saying it to, though. Perhaps Fili just stepped on him or something. I'm going to start using that in everyday conversation. Smile


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Apr 10 2013, 10:03pm

Post #27 of 46 (1064 views)
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Doesn't happen very often. ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post


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I haven't watched with subtitles yet, perhaps this evening!

One scene that I always have to watch is the scene in Rivendell, when the Dwarves are attempting to eat the food the Elves served. There is a woman that plays the flute, and for some reason to me she seems SO annoying! Perhaps it's the smug look on her face, but it looks like she is deliberately trying to annoy the Dwarves. I always think of this as the "tra-la-la-lally" scene. I can sympathize with Oin as he stuffs his napkin into his ear trumpet. Tongue






Great thought about the music being a subtle "tra-la-la-lally" moment. It hadn't occurred to me that the flute player was deliberately trying to annoy the Dwarves -- but you just might be right! She sure did a good job with annoying poor Oin. I love his creative use of a napkin there.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Apr 10 2013, 10:11pm

Post #28 of 46 (1088 views)
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"Stop harshing my Du Bekar buzz." [In reply to] Can't Post

ROFL! That may be my new favourite expression. Only a real fan would ever get it! Can I find a way to work it in to everyday conversations?

Sorry to make you look for Fili. I know, even with the remote in hand ready for an instant replay, it's a sacrifice not watching Thorin. I had to watch him entering Bag End last night about 12 times, just to make up for watching Dori and Ori bow, once. And then I discovered Gandalf actually has some interesting expressions in those moments too -- and that required re-watching Thorin enter Bag End *another* 12 times. Good thing I had the living room to myself!

Would love to see Legolas getting uppity at Bo5A, actually. Right next to his uppity papa. Heart


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 10 2013, 10:27pm

Post #29 of 46 (1076 views)
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Let's make it a saying! And more about your music idea... [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile
Actually (while getting dinner ready) I was thinking more about your excellent point about the musical signature. Have toyed with the idea of posting about a link I see in Thorin and Bilbo's choices - just haven't gotten around to really thinking it out, but your music query unites the ideas. What I see is the lesson that Bilbo learns from Thorin at the Stone Giants, when Thorin risks his life to rescue Bilbo - who he then pointedly demonstrates that he does not particularly like. That's what I see going through Bilbo's mind when he chooses to stand before Thorin's figure and defend him from Azog - the lesson in Dwarven honor being that we don't just save people we "like", and that honor demands harsh choices.. So maybe using that signature is used to relate how Bilbo is acting like a stubborn and honorable Dwarf, having learned from **the best**. (?)

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 10 2013, 10:28pm)


Kimtc
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 10:31pm

Post #30 of 46 (1067 views)
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Absolutely! [In reply to] Can't Post

But even open to every character, all favorite hair scenes belong to Thorin. So it would have to be Favorite Thorin Hair scene. I can't wait for "wet-haired Thorin" in DoS. Like the ME version of a wet t-shirt contest.


In Reply To
is when Thorin's in the mouth of the white warg. I think that's my favourite hair-throwing scene.

Second runner-up (after Azanulbizar, which I agree is quite delicious!) is when he hollers "DRAGON!" in the prologue. He flings his hair sooooo majestically as he leans over the balcony to yell into the depths below.

Oooh, and another great hair-tossing moment is when he yells "WAKE UP!" just after Sting glows blue in the goblins' front porch.

Maybe we need to start a poll: Favorite Hair Scenes.



tarasaurus
Rohan


Apr 10 2013, 11:19pm

Post #31 of 46 (1042 views)
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Lmao [In reply to] Can't Post

When you said 'hair-tossing', for some reason I read it as you meaning goosebumps, because I was reading your points thinking, "Yeah I got goosegumps there too! Oh, and the dragon scene also!" then I read further down and realized...that's not what you meant. LOL


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Apr 11 2013, 2:17am

Post #32 of 46 (1026 views)
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Subtitles can be useful. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

3. Am I the only one who missed a lot of the background dialogue that’s so delightfully revealed by the subtitles?

I keep meaning to watch it with subtitles but haven't yet. They would be very helpful to solve a conflict in our house over the moon runes scene. Mr. Riven Delve insists that after Elrond says, "So this is your purpose, to enter the mountain?", Thorin replies, "[Phrase that can also be expressed by a vulgar gesture], Elf!" but all I can hear is "What of it?" Angelic No doubt the subtitles will clear this up. Wink

4. The angle of the point of Bilbo’s ears is somewhat back of vertical, which is accentuated when he looks up. In an animal with pricky-up pointy ears (e.g., horses, some dogs, for starters), this angle suggests a general feeling of mild annoyance or bebotherment, or hesitancy, or similar. Not curiosity, eagerness, or enthusiasm. I’m not sure this angle was intentional, but I think it’s perfectly suited to his character. (Look at his ears when he’s sitting in the chair in Bag End talking to Gandalf, recovering with his tea, for a good example.)

Nice observation! How about the angle of this shot, the morning after the party as he looks down at the contract, then looks up again, considering… What do you think?

10. I think Fili also has a magic ring of invisibility. He slipped it on just before they Company is brought before the Goblin King. Has anyone spotted him there? I tried hard today and couldn’t.

And here he is! (You know, that blondish bit behind Bombur?) Yep, that’s pretty much all we can see of Fili in the Great Goblin huddle—when we see him at all.






LOL about the "What of it?" confusion. I'll have to go back and listen to that again. Mr. RD's mishearing could go into the list of misheard lines. So far we haven't come up with any as good as we had for FOTR (e.g., "Hide! It's eggplants from Dublin!" and "Legolas! Get the map!").

Yes, that picture of Bilbo shows the ear angle perfectly, and perfectly reflecting his mood right there. I'm not sure how intentionally they've used his ears to reflect mood, but it strikes me as subtle and very well done.

Oh! You found Fili's hair! And forehead! Thanks for that. I spent quite a while yesterday going through that scene frame by frame and hadn't picked that up. We do see him a little bit as they run out of Goblin Town, but not very much. I still think he has his own Ring.

And thanks, Riven Delve; glad you enjoyed the thoughts. I really enjoy reading everyone else's thoughts. Smile


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Apr 11 2013, 5:34am

Post #33 of 46 (1001 views)
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he is in goblintown [In reply to] Can't Post

Fili is standing behind Balin in Goblintown at the back of the group

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 11 2013, 9:07am

Post #34 of 46 (961 views)
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Thanks for the confirmation Roheryn :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

I've listened to that part over and over again, and I think the more I've done that, the less it's begun to sounds like anything.

It is interesting that the Necromancer says his name. There can't be many people that do. Though Saruman thinks he is a "human sorcerer", I'm sure Radagast could narrow that down considerably.

I always use to watch the LOTR films (when they first came out) with the subtitles. I'll definitely be doing the same.

Smile


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Apr 11 2013, 9:17am

Post #35 of 46 (975 views)
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I'll try it out [In reply to] Can't Post

at the first opportunity, on Mr Ro for starters. He at least should get the reference. Cool

Get your thoughts together on that connection and post them. Great insight, and I think you're on to something. Not sure I agree about the musical connection necessarily, though, since it also plays while Nori, Bofur, and Gloin are burying the troll chest. Not a particularly noble or honorable moment (just look at that contemptuous glare that Dwalin gives them!). Although maybe I missed the timing and it also plays while Thorin inspects the swords? Need to go rewatch. Regardless, when we hear it in that scene it's slower, more flowery and less dramatic. Still not sure what to make of it. It may play elsewhere in the movie too but perhaps I've been distracted...


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Apr 11 2013, 11:34am

Post #36 of 46 (971 views)
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About that... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

LOL about the "What of it?" confusion. I'll have to go back and listen to that again. Mr. RD's mishearing could go into the list of misheard lines.

Mr. RD is just teasing...he's "hearing" the nonverbals! It would be so funny if the subtitles did pick up on those...there would be a lot of "*$%!*," in the movie, I think!



In Reply To
So far we haven't come up with any as good as we had for FOTR (e.g., "Hide! It's eggplants from Dublin!" and "Legolas! Get the map!").

LOL! Where/when do those happen?


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Apr 11 2013, 1:39pm

Post #37 of 46 (992 views)
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Orcrist [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


7. Orcrist really *does* sing in battle (as Thorin hollers “Hold your ground!” just before Rivendell). I’d thought it was a continuity error, with Thorin drawing the sword even though we’d just seen him holding it – but it’s not. He’s clearly not drawing it, he’s just raising it. And Orcrist is “singing” away. Cool beans. (I’m not the first one to notice this, but I wasn’t sure I believed it at first!)
In real life the temper is so sweet it makes that noise if you quickly run a finger either up or down the blade....Smile I do that a lot.


Your Orcrist sings too?! *envious sigh* Cool



"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 11 2013, 1:45pm

Post #38 of 46 (955 views)
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*sigh* Indeed! I am very attached to that sword! [In reply to] Can't Post

orcrist is lovely...

BTW I love your new avatar R-D! Heart

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Apr 11 2013, 2:15pm

Post #39 of 46 (948 views)
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Thanks :) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

BTW I love your new avatar R-D! Heart



It's based on that very short but beautiful scene of mountain smoke beneath the moon--one of my favorites in the whole movie! Heart


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Apr 11 2013, 4:42pm

Post #40 of 46 (921 views)
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Love your point about Elrond! So true indeed, I like his character portrayal immensely in AUJ.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"So your own praise will forever keep your name green,
Both here on Earth and on the stage of the stars" - J.G.Kittel, writing about the composer Jan Dismas Zelenka (1740)
__________________________________________

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
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Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 12 2013, 2:30am

Post #41 of 46 (898 views)
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You found Fili!!! ***applause*** [In reply to] Can't Post

Just saw the link - smashing good job Riven Delve!!! Even when I know where to look its almost like you are seeing just a goblin's shoulder.

Is it Fili who calls out the warning to Thorin when the Goblin King strikes at him? That's who it sounds like but I'm not sure (and you are very good at this technical mystery solving)

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Apr 12 2013, 11:49am

Post #42 of 46 (861 views)
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Ahh, I see. [In reply to] Can't Post

I get it now! Just call me slow on the uptake, LOL! I do wish we had subtitles for the nonverbal -- wouldn't it be great to see what Thorin is *really* thinking?

And the misheard lines: someone thought it sounded like "Eggplants from Dublin!" instead of "Crebain from Dunland!" when the crows fly over the Fellowship in FOTR. And my favourite is when, just after Moria when the Fellowship is mourning Gandalf, Aragorn hollers: "Legolas! Get them up!" but it sounds like "Legolas! Get a map!" Which is particularly funny given that Legolas clearly has no sense of direction (thanks to his comments in TTT when he gets the direction that the Orcs are headed completely wrong.)


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Apr 12 2013, 4:46pm

Post #43 of 46 (858 views)
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Yes, I did find Fili, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

it's not because I am any good at technical mystery solving. In fact, I can't hear anyone warning Thorin in the Goblin King scene... although I could be looking in the wrong place. Do you mean when the goblins start whipping Thorin after they find Orcrist?

What I am actually good at is *whispers confidingly* looking for dimples. AngelicWink


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 12 2013, 5:05pm

Post #44 of 46 (881 views)
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Dimples, Screencaps and who warns Thorin?! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
it's not because I am any good at technical mystery solving. In fact, I can't hear anyone warning Thorin in the Goblin King scene... although I could be looking in the wrong place. Do you mean when the goblins start whipping Thorin after they find Orcrist?

What I am actually good at is *whispers confidingly* looking for dimples. AngelicWink




Heehee, you do have fantastic Dimple Vision Evil I think that could be your Superhero skill Wink BUT I respectfully disagree that you aren't a tech mystery solver because your uncannily awesome screencapping has helped with a lot of questions (that need answering!)

Yes, there is a voice that calls out "Thorin!" right as the Goblin King strikes at Thorin from behind his back (rotter). It will be about three seconds after Kili stabs Grinnah - you will see a quick cut to Nori on the floor and then the voice cries to Thorin in warning.
So since we get a super quick flash of Nori on the ground just before then - maybe it is Nori, although it SOUNDS a lot like Fili when he calls Thorin's name while in flight. Whoever it is saves Thorin from the Goblin King, would love to credit the character. Have a look and tell me what you think. (Would be cool if it turns out to be a Nori moment.)

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Apr 12 2013, 5:54pm

Post #45 of 46 (862 views)
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Dimple Vision has also discovered dimples on [In reply to] Can't Post

two other dwarves: Ori and Bofur. Awwwwww. Heart And I vow to only use my powers for good!!! (Oh dear, I hope being a superhero won't take any time away from my Thorin Hair Gazing hobby.Evil)

*ahem* Now what were we talking about? Oh yes. Who warns Thorin... Actually I just watched this bit with the subtitles on and they read "NORI: Thorin!"

It does sound to me like Fili's voice does when he yells "Thorin!" from the eagle's back...but it's just two syllables and hard to make out. I don't think O'Gorman was even in this part of Goblin Town (I don't think he comes in until the actual running scenes) because you can see here (on the right) by the weird wig that it's a body double or a stuntman or something. I suppose they could have dubbed O'Gorman's voice in there, but I'm going to choose to believe the subtitles! Let Nori shine, I say! Smile


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 12 2013, 8:42pm

Post #46 of 46 (849 views)
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AWESOME!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Ahh, the Subtitle Move - good choice! Actually I am really glad it's Nori ! That's a great moment for him! Angelic Thanks for clarifying that R-D! (Knew you would figure it out!)

Well of course Bofur must have dimples - he has every other mark of adorableness going on! I haven't noticed Ori's yet, probably because (coughcough!!) our Common Thorin Gazing Condition does keep me distracted. Evil

Hell hath no fury like a Dragon who is missing a cup.

 
 

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