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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
All problems in AUJ are linked to the 3 movie decision.
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Elessar
Valinor


Mar 31 2013, 6:31am

Post #76 of 221 (405 views)
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Hmmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think that's correct. I think they know what Tolkien fans want to see, and do their best to give them that. They also know changes will have to be made to bring in the herbal audience. The last part of your post just reeks of "narf syndrome".



pulpfiction16
Rivendell

Mar 31 2013, 6:34am

Post #77 of 221 (397 views)
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My comment was meant for the thread creator [In reply to] Can't Post

But that's nice. I also like the trilogy decision. My post was sarcasm.

I do feel AUJ was a bit shakey though, probably not due to the trilogy decision.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 31 2013, 7:03am

Post #78 of 221 (396 views)
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I think the Original Posters hopes are a fever dream, but I do not think we should [In reply to] Can't Post

lambast him for posting them. And stamping and shouting certainly works, it is just that in the wide world, it takes a unified effort of many stamping feet and shouting voices together. And sometimes it is over essential matters. . . and sometimes it isn't. But it can be effective in massive doeses. lol Unfortunately for our OP, I don't think hundreds of thousands of feet are going to March on Warner brothers over these movies not being perfect.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


emre43
Rohan

Mar 31 2013, 7:16am

Post #79 of 221 (396 views)
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No, that's not what I'm saying [In reply to] Can't Post

What I am saying is that what precisely Gandalf was doing whilst at Dol Guldur wasn't explained by Tolkien. Which is why the filmmakers have to fill it in.


emre43
Rohan

Mar 31 2013, 7:18am

Post #80 of 221 (393 views)
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Oh and I didn't ask you anything like how do you know Radagast didn't discover Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post

I asked how do you know he didn't get up to what he does in the Hobbit. I.e. in Mirkwood, Rhosgobel attacked by spiders, saving Sebastien's life. Nothing says he didn't and he must have been doing something.

Can't be bothered to read the rest of your post.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 31 2013, 7:23am

Post #81 of 221 (397 views)
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Didn't I warn you>?!! [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember when 3 films was announced. Aside from being sad that I would have to wait extra years, and that people might expire before seeing the final product. . . I worried that the line "we've taken alot from the Appendices" was just a cover for, "we went and completely warped and made a lot of crap up." The moment I heard Azog was going to be given new life and walkin around money.. . I said "Oh Dear God!" In truth, things for this first film were not as bad in most places (other than the near total loss of the origins of the war between The Dwarves and Orcs and the fury of ALL the Dwarven race over the desecration of Durin's Heir [also broght into perspective how truly dreadful The Balrog must have been, to have slain an incarnation of Durin himself, and proven fierce enough after that the Dwarves abandoned even the hope of vengeance]), as I had feared, and I think that the three films will give a much better treatment than one and possibly even two films could have, even if I am still nervous and unhappy about the long wait. Yet there are definitely some bad patches, and some obnoxiuosly bold and inappropriate embellishments, over which I can well understand a fair amount of stamping, yelling, fist waving and the like.

In Reply To
they would be adding in some of the appendices material, and so I was cool with the 3-film split when I first heard about it. But since all of the appendices material they've used thus far has been entirely rewritten, I now kind of wish they'd have left it at 2 films. If I'd have known how drastically they were going to alter the appendices material, I would have never supported the 3-film split to begin with. But it's too late now, so I'll just have to accept that we're getting Tolkien's story peppered with a whole lot of rushed fan-fiction. I liked AUJ, I really did, but I think they unnecessarily tinkered with some things that didn't need to be touched.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 31 2013, 7:33am

Post #82 of 221 (392 views)
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Quite alot was explained as Sal says. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf knew it was Sauron, and he was desprate for The Council to act, because he knew Sauron was preparing war and meant to strike The Elves as his first salvo as soon as he was able. It was this that prompted the Wizard to move on Erebor, fear that Sauron would use the Dragon against Rivendell. We know that Gandalf is an Angelic Spirit from before the world incarnated, and not a adjutant subordinate officer of Galadriel the Noldor Queen. We know that Azog's slaying of Thror, the Heir of Revered Durin, roused such a wrath in the Dwarves that they launched an attempted genocide against the orcs/goblins, laying waste to every goblin city they could find for hundreds of miles until they caught and slew Azog, though they still could not claim Moria, for The Demon who slew Durin and drove their folk forth as exiles (and many of Lothlorien's Elves through fear of his presence alone) still remained within, too dreadful for them to face. We Know that The Witch King of Angmar was driven from the north by Glorfindel the Elf Lord, after the combined armed forces of Lindon, Arnor, Rivendell and Gondor destroyed the hordes of Angmar, and that he and the other Nazgul went South, besieging Minas Ithil and turning it into Minas Morgul. . . they were NOT buried in hills by Dunedain. So there is quite a bit that we know, really. Filling in details would be explicitly showing what magic Gandalf used in fighting his way out of Dol Guldur, having him picked up by Radagast and his sled, or the slight embellishment of having him combat The Nine during his flight. They have done a lot more than fill in details, and tweak where necessary.

In Reply To


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Mar 31 2013, 7:51am

Post #83 of 221 (405 views)
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All problems in AUJ are linked to the 3 movie decision - ? [In reply to] Can't Post

  I would have thought that there would have been problems anyway, given the nature of the source material and the types of audiences the films were meant to cater too.


It seems to me that attempting to solve one problem would create another 'problem'. Personally, I'm more in favour of seeing a bit more of the big picture than just Bilbo's POV.

As for Azog, he is the most famous Orc in Middle-Earth, so I can understand the decision to bringing him forward in time in as additional threat to Bilbo and Co (though I still haven't quite gotten used to him no longer being a 'dead' Orc),. I just hope it's Dain who finally deals with him (I wonder if they'll do some sort of Dwarven version of the charge of the Rohirrim).


I'd like to see how the Extended Editions turn out. I've always preferred the Lord of the Rings:EEs to the shorter versions of those movies.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



Hanzkaz
Rohan

Mar 31 2013, 8:07am

Post #84 of 221 (384 views)
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I think they're using unused ideas for the LOTR movies. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
We Know that The Witch King of Angmar was driven from the north by Glorfindel the Elf Lord, after the combined armed forces of Lindon, Arnor, Rivendell and Gondor destroyed the hordes of Angmar, and that he and the other Nazgul went South, besieging Minas Ithil and turning it into Minas Morgul. . . they were NOT buried in hills by Dunedain.



This is probably the closest we'll see to something like the Barrow-Wight scene. It could also be argued that Arvedui's descendants were responsible for imprisoning the Witch-King (probably centuries after Glorfindel chased him off). I think it's more tricky to explain to a modern audience why some of the most powerful villains in Middle-Earth were wandering around for centuries, even millennia, and apparently doing nothing,


I suppose you could say the same about the Balrog, but that demon, like Smaug, was apparently quite happy where it was, unlike Sauron and his minions who were actively trying to conquer Middle-Earth.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Mar 31 2013, 8:09am)


Elenorflower
Gondor


Mar 31 2013, 11:04am

Post #85 of 221 (471 views)
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nice! [In reply to] Can't Post

I demand zombie bunny sleds.


imin
Valinor


Mar 31 2013, 1:21pm

Post #86 of 221 (353 views)
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He may have given you what you want as a Tolkien fan [In reply to] Can't Post

But he didn't give me what i wanted or others so it is just as fair to say he didn't know what we wanted.

I think he went in totally the wrong direction with AUJ. Its not narf syndrome it's called having a differing opinion but it is something i have seen increasing on here recently - if people don't agree just try and belittle them.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 31 2013, 1:26pm

Post #87 of 221 (354 views)
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What's 'narf syndrome', Precious? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Mar 31 2013, 1:31pm

Post #88 of 221 (354 views)
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A fan is a fan [In reply to] Can't Post

there is no arguing that. If someone liked the changes Jackson made great, but I know a ton of Tolkien fans who think the decisions they made as far as changing as many things as they did was totally unnecessary. Maybe I'm the NARF because I think they should have stuck to the book instead of changing things needlessly just to put a middle earth film on the screen. I could have waited another 10 years if they could have at least followed the book and not felt the need to change something that needed no change. The "herbal" audience was never given a chance to know if they would have liked the Hobbit as it was told because of Jackson and his changes.

There was no real reason to bring Azog back from the dead. Bolg would have served just as good a villain and NOT had to change the history of the dwarves and orc/goblins. It still would have been Orcs chasing dwarves for revenge, but this story line would have made sense instead of needless change. They obviously couldn't make up their mind about the story otherwise there would have been a more cohesive one. Azog was obviously a last minute decision that I thought the CGI was horrible. What was he straight from the god of war video game? At least a guy in a suit would have felt part of the scene instead of being painted on top of it. Heck can anyone give me a valid reason why Azog was brought back instead of using Bolg? I don't think there is a valid reason other than the lame excuse Peter Jackson wanted to.

There was no reason to make the stone giants a roller coaster ride that was OTT. It was pure spectacle and took away from Bilbo's journey. Why does Bilbo and the dwarves have to personally interact with everything on the journey. Stone giants off in the distance with the rain and thunder and lightning would have worked brilliantly and NOT been OTT.

The white council IMO was terribly written and just felt unnatural. Gandalf and Saruman seem like acquaintances who merely get along just to be polite rather than the friends they are supposed to be, as much on Gandalfs side as Sarumans. Plus IMO it just seemed like they wanted to cram in as many middle earth names during that scene to make people think they care about Tolkien's world instead of trying to come up with some dialogue that Tolkien himself would have been proud of. But NO they had to try and create tension between Gandalf and Saruman with Saruman basically daring Gandalf to go find proof in DolGuldur. They couldn't even keep the fact straight that Gandalf discovered all this information 90 years before the Hobbit it had to be something that happened in the present. I guess nothing happened before Gandalf took the dwarves on this journey, the necromancer sat around twiddling his thumbs until he realized "Ohh no Gandalf is going on an adventure we need to do something, I haven't done anything for centuries so I suppose I aught to get off my butt now that Gandalf is out and about"

Radagast is a character while I think he started out with the best intentions he was an idiot. Really, leading the dwarves away and he just keeps running in circles constantly leading the orcs closer to them instead. The bird crap to me was just OTT. and the whole getting high basically was a bit much. The bunny sled to me just looked out of place and ridiculous but that's personal opinion. The witch King showing up, stuff like that just makes it seem, to me anyways, that they are just trying to shoehorn as many tie ins to LOTR as possible instead of actually telling the story in a similar context as to what Tolkien wrote. Which Tolkien ONLY rewrote the Riddles in the dark chapter, he pondered a rewrite but abandoned it because the story was no longer the same one he originally wrote and lost the same feel of the Hobbit. Which I am quite happy with. So if Tolkien abandoned the rewrite what gives Jackson the right? IMo he should have just told the story instead of trying to invent a new one under the guise of calling it the Hobbit. Tales from Middle earth more like it. That I could have lived with, but that wouldn't have sold as many tickets as exploiting the Hobbit name now would it have?


imin
Valinor


Mar 31 2013, 1:32pm

Post #89 of 221 (358 views)
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narf [In reply to] Can't Post

narf i believe stands for not a real fan - i think it is something people who like the books said of others who they felt were not real fans though it could just as easily nowadays be labelled to people who don't like the films by those who do.

It was then turned around as a badge of honour on here as a bit of a joke - so people say things like 'i have been a narf since 1956' etc.

other golden oldies on here can probably say more, lol.

In the case of Elessar he was using it as an insult, by saying he felt the other poster was making out that only a real fan could find faults with the film where as people who are not real fans don't care and so enjoy the film more. Of course that isn't true, plenty who love the books also love the films.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Mar 31 2013, 1:39pm

Post #90 of 221 (347 views)
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Tolkien only rewrote riddles in the dark [In reply to] Can't Post

he abandoned a total rewrite which in his opinion would have destroyed the tone of the original work. I have to agree with him. They should have left it as 2 films with the DolGuldur subplot and called it a day. But then WB couldn't milk more money out of the Tolkien name then now could it? Peter Jackson's more story to tell is just a ploy to make up his own story under the guise of calling it the Hobbit, using Tolkien's characters but not the events that Tolkien wrote. Shame to because what Tolkien wrote is much better than the nonsense rollercoaster ride Jackson gave us so far.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 31 2013, 2:02pm

Post #91 of 221 (362 views)
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That makes sense, [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks!


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Mar 31 2013, 2:12pm

Post #92 of 221 (361 views)
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Bravo! [In reply to] Can't Post

And speaking of rivendell ....what the heck happened with the dwarves? One minute they arrive, they broke some furniture ....and then they are leaving?? Why would they leave without Gandalf?? And Bilbo would go with them without Gandalf?

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Mar 31 2013, 2:34pm

Post #93 of 221 (345 views)
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Good point. [In reply to] Can't Post

Surely there must be a deleted scene where the dwarves decide to leave, then convince Bilbo to go with them. Their leaving is not even hinted at, and then all of a sudden they're on the trail. It seemed like they weren't even in Rivendell a whole day (more infamous PJ time compression?). I think PJ forgot to do 'passage of time' shots for these films.

Speaking of time compression... the company makes camp at the ruined farmhouse, Gandalf disappears, the ponies go missing, the company's captured by trolls, Gandalf returns and turns the trolls to stone, they find the troll horde (and all the famous swords),Radagast arrives informing Gandalf about Dol Guldur, they're discovered by warg scouts, and the bunny sled chase begins. All in less than one day. And if the bunny sled chase happens in one afternoon, as the movie makes it seem, they then also find Rivendell later that same day. Phew! That's like half the events of the movie. And then they leave Rivendell the next morning? They must've slept well that night!


tolktolk
Lorien

Mar 31 2013, 2:41pm

Post #94 of 221 (341 views)
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Ha ha, yes! [In reply to] Can't Post

That made no sense whatsoever, though one reviewer did put forward the theory that they decided to leave because they were as bored as everyone else with the WC droning on.

From what Peter Jackson has said, the missing scenes in Rivendell which are destined for the EE are more of the dwarves behaving badly and making fun of the elves. Oh joy.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Mar 31 2013, 2:54pm

Post #95 of 221 (339 views)
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Great!!!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

more made up content that has NOTHING to do with the story of the Hobbit to be sure... Crazy I still don't understand why they named these films the Hobbit since the amount of made up content almost equals the stuff from the book. Still think it should have been called Tales from Middle Earth or something along those lines...





OHHH THAT'S RIGHT!!!!! It wouldn't make the kind of money it is by exploiting the name "the Hobbit".... That's right almost forgotTongue


tarasaurus
Rohan


Mar 31 2013, 3:00pm

Post #96 of 221 (339 views)
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yepp [In reply to] Can't Post

I still love the movie despite the changes, I want to see more Middle Earth come to life and I'm grateful I'm getting 3 huge movies worth.


Elessar
Valinor


Mar 31 2013, 3:11pm

Post #97 of 221 (334 views)
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That's fine [In reply to] Can't Post

He may have not given you what you wanted but as a whole I'd be willing to bet he gave most folks what they wanted. All while not nailing everything for everyone.

We will have to agree to disagree. I think he did just fine with it but he did make a few mistakes. You are totally off the mark of what I meant and jumping to conclusions. The last part of that post very much comes across as if only mindless fans could be happy with what we got. That you'd have to not care about the books and just have to be happy to have a movie to enjoy it. That is what I meant. If that is not what he meant he should have chosen his words betters. I personally don't care at all if he liked the movie or not. For me personally it did and captured for the most part the story that I love. I don't care for everything about it but I love it despite his issues.

As far as people belittling I think you're exaggerating just a bit. It happens here far far less than other boards I've been on. As I said in another posts both sides can get harsh. I will say as I said earlier that I think a few posters here almost every post is some kind of pot shot (even if its tongue and cheek) towards the movie or one of 9.5k thread on this is what's wrong/ruined The Hobbit.



DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 31 2013, 3:21pm

Post #98 of 221 (332 views)
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He re-wrote a lot more (of the beginning). Riddles ended up in the published Hobbit book. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Mar 31 2013, 3:25pm

Post #99 of 221 (329 views)
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But he also knew it wasn't right [In reply to] Can't Post

to do a rewrite of it. The only published part of the rewrite was RID... From my understanding of reading on the subject Tolkien realized it was a mistake to try and rewrite the whole thing and left it alone (except the riddles chapter) Which IMO Jackson should have learned something from that but didn't.


Kirly
Lorien


Mar 31 2013, 3:25pm

Post #100 of 221 (325 views)
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We don't see them [In reply to] Can't Post

Answering the call of nature either but surely they did.

My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!

pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#

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