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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Mar 17 2013, 10:52am
Post #1 of 36
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The Lord of the Rings in 4K = better CGI
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Among many other films, The Lord of the Rings is being considered as an early 4K (Ultra-high Definition) release when the new format is standardized. - mainly because all re-scanned footage was done in 4K.
However. Back in 2001, the standard resolution was 2K (HD). Therefore all the original digital files were rendered in 2K, including all special effects and colour timings.
I just thought that people would appreciate the heads-up that this is being considered and that, if it goes forward, we'll likely see some re-rendered, improved CGI and effects and yet another (hopefully better) colour-timing for the whole trilogy.
Purists may dislike this idea, as it's not the version presented at the cinema in 2001. But it should be acknowledged that the version shown in the cinema was in 2K at the very highest, so the current Blu-rays are already the best you're going to get.
In my opinion: As long as the original 2K versions are kept readily available (possible a remastered theatrical Blu-ray would be a good idea) Then the 4K release is a great opportunity to do a George Lucas and re-cut the film and, among other things, replace FotR's Gollum.
I think a 4K (possibly 3D) Special Edition and a 2K Theatrical Edition is a good way to keep both perspectives happy, and should really be the only 2 "definitive" options for fans.
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Mar 17 2013, 12:11pm
Post #2 of 36
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and would actually look forward to it (though i'm not crazy about 3D). I would personally trust PJ to be more like Ridley Scott, and what he did with the masterful Blade Runner: The Final Cut, than George Lucas and what he did with the Star Wars Special Editions. Like you say, as long as the originals are readily available, i'd actually love to see LotR all souped up in 4k with re-rendered cg and brand new compositing, with a few tweaks here and there to bring all six films together visually. I'm sure Weta would be up to the task without screwing it up. Don't know how likely or feasible something like this would be, though-- it would be quite costly i would think.
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Mar 17 2013, 12:36pm
Post #3 of 36
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of keeping the TEs as they are in a remastered 2K release, and the EEs be the "enhanced" 4K version. Since those two versions are already out there as two seperate entities, known and accepted by the general public, that would be a great way of keeping the originals just as they are and always have been, but still being able to give fans cool new jazzed up cuts of the films.
Though one would think that, if they do end up doing something like this, they might want to do a wide re-release in theaters for 3D, and if so, they'd want to do that with the TEs and not the EEs? Just a thought.
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Kendalf
Rohan
Mar 17 2013, 3:46pm
Post #4 of 36
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Among many other films, The Lord of the Rings is being considered as an early 4K release...
I just thought that people would appreciate the heads-up that this is being considered and that, if it goes forward, we'll likely see some re-rendered, improved CGI and effects and yet another (hopefully better) colour-timing for the whole trilogy.
"We'll likely see"? I'm not sure we can be quite that confident yet but, then, the studios' willingness to quadruple-dip we fans in the past may indeed suggest it's on the cards!!
I'd be happy with it. A uniform standard of CGI and a consistent colour-timing across the entire hexalogy would do wonders for unifying the work into a cohesive whole.
"I have found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."
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Kendalf
Rohan
Mar 17 2013, 3:53pm
Post #5 of 36
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Yes, a visual continuity would be highly desirable...
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i'd actually love to see LotR all souped up in 4k with re-rendered cg and brand new compositing, with a few tweaks here and there to bring all six films together visually.
Yes, this would be the primary benefit of a 4K re-master in my mind (more beneficial than the increased resolution). AUJ bears no relation whatsoever to LotR visually , so there's a major break there (assuming DoS and TaBA look the same) and the recent re-grading of the EE FotR has even resulted in a visual inconsistency within LotR now!!!
The sooner all six films have the same grading, the better.
"I have found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Mar 17 2013, 4:38pm
Post #6 of 36
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So you're saying that LotR was
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basically shot in 35mm and scanned in 4K. But all the effects and compositing were done in 2K, and the end result was 2K? Or were the effects done in 4K (to future proof them i guess), but the master was done at 2K because that was the standard at the time? Because if all they had to do was go back and re-assemble all the 4K elements to make a 4K master, that's not such a big deal. But if the effects (all the digital doubles and models and matte paintings) were done at 2K, then all that would have to be re-done from scratch, which would be a massive (so to speak) undertaking, and hugely expensive.
EDIT: I hope all that made sense!
(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Mar 17 2013, 4:39pm)
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Mar 17 2013, 4:41pm
Post #7 of 36
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That's not what I meant by "likely"...
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The whole situation is in dispute at the moment and certainly not "likely" but possible. But if it does happen, what is likely is the new CG and effects. If you see what I mean?
So the CG and effects are the most likely outcome, even if the situation its self isn't all that likely
Now the word likely has lost all meaning haha.
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Mar 17 2013, 4:47pm
Post #8 of 36
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The former... the effects are 2K and the film is in 4K
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4K CGI was simply too expensive at the time.
Absolutely, it'd be a huge and expensive undertaking. But it has been done before for films like Blade Runner. (in fact they further future-proofed them by re-rendering in 8k!). Of course, The Lord of the Rings is a bigger challenge than Blade Runner, and could potentially be one of the most expensive remasters ever. But similarly, Star Wars was undergoing the same treatment when they were converting it to 3D. So it's clearly not impossible. (although they did recently give up on Star Wars)
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Mar 17 2013, 4:48pm
Post #9 of 36
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I do wonder whether a 48fps upscale is a possibility
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I know some TV's can imitate HFR by creating artificial frames. So I suppose some sort of upscaling process would give a better result. But I wonder how necessary it would be.
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Mar 17 2013, 4:53pm
Post #10 of 36
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I know it can be done, but i wonder if the quality is high enough for a feature film (probably not-- the upscaling my tv does looks terrible), but if not, how far off is it?
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BrendanRawa
The Shire
Mar 17 2013, 5:01pm
Post #11 of 36
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I would love the movie's special effects to be enhanced, but not replaced.
The thing that scares me is that The Hobbit's CGI is much more cartoony and I don't like it much. It may be visually sharper, but I feel the LOTR has more realistic CGI.
But that CGI is getting a bit dated, so I would love an update, as long as the keep the same style.
The trolls must look the same, not like William, Burt and Tom. The wargs must remain the same, not like the ones in Hobbit.
Gollum can look like the Gollum in the hobbit, since they are essentially identical, except he is much sharper and more detailed in the hobbit. The eagles too remain similar enough.
The other creatures that don't appear in the hobbit (balrog, ent, mumakil, etc) should just be touched up like the trolls and wargs. No design changes, just enhancements.
Finally, the large CGI armies could use some touching up. In some of the zoomed out shots of the armies, you can tell they are digital. Especially in the two towers extended edition, in the added scene where the uruk-hai are destroyed by the huorns.
So if the CGI was simply replaced with designs that look the same, only sharper, that would be wonderful! 
But they should not change anything for the sole purpose of making it blend better with the hobbit...
(This post was edited by BrendanRawa on Mar 17 2013, 5:05pm)
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Tigero
Rivendell
Mar 18 2013, 9:27am
Post #12 of 36
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They would have to scan the originals at 4K and do all effects all over again
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But i love the idea, LOTR has some flaws and if they don't get radical it will get much better and more seamless. Oh wow now that i think about it... film in 4k, that will look so delicious but it might also make making effects harder. I hope to see Black gate sequence made better and Gollum look more like Hobbit's (now that you compare them, LOTR Gollum looks really out-of place). Eru bless film.
Pessimists have no disappointments.
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Tigero
Rivendell
Mar 18 2013, 9:33am
Post #13 of 36
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But they should not change anything for the sole purpose of making it blend better with the hobbit...
Just think about a day-long, more or less seamless marathon! I don't feel like it would hurt anything, many films have been remade with much less change considering the huge leaps with technology comparing year 2000 and 2013. The Hobbit has perfect CGI and so Did LOTR, now they must come togheter.
Even simple fly-by's like Frodo, Sam and Gollum walking past the marshes were pretty ugly in LOTR, you could see them just drift in the ground, sometimes even moving to the waters. I guess they had to make it by hand back then and they didn't have much time, but now you can just track the image automatically in 3D space and position the adventurers there.
The more i think about it, the more awesome it gets, and what a chance to make LOTR 'fresh' once more.
Pessimists have no disappointments.
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Kendalf
Rohan
Mar 18 2013, 5:14pm
Post #14 of 36
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I do wonder whether a 48fps upscale is a possibility...I know some TV's can imitate HFR by creating artificial frames. So I suppose some sort of upscaling process would give a better result. But I wonder how necessary it would be.
The quality of a TV's own upscaling is never quite as convincing, is it?  It's having to look at the frame either side and then imagine and invent a frame in between so the effect is always inferior and, quite frequently in my view, a little unsettling!
If, however, PJ and Co. were to go back to the original files and create their own extra frames, I imagine they'd be of a much higher quality and therefore give a much higher standard effect. Not quite as lovely as The Hobbit's genuine 48fps, I suspect, but a passable imitation.*
Still, the mixed critical response to HFR, the enormous expense of creating these extra frames over 10 hours of film and the fact that the majority of blu-ray players at the minute (I think I'm right in saying so) don't actually have the capability to play at 48fps might just count against such a move!!! 
*The amount of blur on the original 24 frames would surely be an insumountable hurdle, no?
"I have found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."
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Kendalf
Rohan
Mar 18 2013, 5:18pm
Post #15 of 36
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Yes, enhancements only, please...
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I would love the movie's special effects to be enhanced, but not replaced... The trolls must look the same, not like William, Burt and Tom. The wargs must remain the same, not like the ones in Hobbit...The other creatures that don't appear in the hobbit (balrog, ent, mumakil, etc) should just be touched up... No design changes, just enhancements. Agreed  And I daresay WB's accountants agree, too.
"I have found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."
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Tigero
Rivendell
Mar 18 2013, 6:53pm
Post #16 of 36
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A good looking 48fps upconversion is not an option
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The footage was shot at 24fps with 180* shutter, giving it way too much motion blur for decent frame interpolation.
Pessimists have no disappointments.
(This post was edited by Tigero on Mar 18 2013, 6:54pm)
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Mar 18 2013, 7:19pm
Post #17 of 36
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That we might finally get to see those deleted scenes!? That would be amazing 
I feel like if they're going through all that other work, they might as well get some deleted scenes finished as well.
"Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands - bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë; and the envy of Meglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed." -The Fall of Gondolin
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Kendalf
Rohan
Mar 18 2013, 7:49pm
Post #19 of 36
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Another serious temptation for Jackson and WB, certainly...
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That we might finally get to see those deleted scenes!? That would be amazing I feel like if they're going through all that other work, they might as well get some deleted scenes finished as well.
Fingers crossed, eh? I don't think we'll ever see them incorporated into the bodies of the films, but, even as stand-alone Extras, it'd be a real bonus and another reason to buy the films for 1,367th time...
"I have found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Mar 18 2013, 8:02pm
Post #20 of 36
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I don't plan (or really want) to see them incorporated into the films, but I do want to see them. Some things I really want to see wouldn't even make sense, such as the scrapped Arwen at Helm's Deep scenes or the Annatar scene.
Also, I don't plan to buy the films again unless I get these. My DVDs work just fine. WB will really have to make me an offer I can't refuse if they want me to shell out money for these films again.
"Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands - bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë; and the envy of Meglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed." -The Fall of Gondolin
(This post was edited by Ardamírë on Mar 18 2013, 8:04pm)
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Tigero
Rivendell
Mar 18 2013, 8:34pm
Post #21 of 36
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I want to see Merri and Pippin's
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''Extremely high'' scene at Isengard.
Pessimists have no disappointments.
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Mar 18 2013, 8:42pm
Post #22 of 36
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I have absolutely no desire to see Tolkien's pipeweed yet again referred to as marijuana.
"Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands - bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë; and the envy of Meglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed." -The Fall of Gondolin
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glor
Rohan
Mar 18 2013, 9:27pm
Post #23 of 36
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Bladerunner versus Star Wars remastering
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I'd go for Bladerunner. The film was simply touched up, remastered and given the make over necessary to give audiences a HD experience, with only slight editing from Scott, to perfect it, this was the only version of Bladerunner over which he had total control. The only exception as a single scene that was reshot (the chase scene with Zhora crashing through glass shop fronts) because Scott was never happy with the way it looked.
Despite this tweeks the film still looked and felt the same, the changes were so subtle, that only a diehard fan whom has watched and studied the film hundreds of times would notice but they were never distracting. In fact the only the audience noticed and discussed at the specials screenings of the Final Cut were Scott's lighting of the eye clues to whom was and was not a replicant and that was done with such subtlety and a light hand that it os debated as to whether it is a clue/conclusive.
Star Wars on the other hand was a far more contraversial remaster one that even those like myself whom had only viewed then original trilogy a couple of time noticed, Didn't Lucas do some jarring changes to tie in with the prequels?
I say just clean up LOTR concentrate on the tiny details that make the special effects and CGI obvious in HD and higher framerate screenings, don't change the look, just perfect the tiny visual details.
Oh and give us a bunch of extra never before seen deleted scenes; I want to see those famous filmed but never seen moments, Houses of the Healing, etc.
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BrendanRawa
The Shire
Mar 18 2013, 9:27pm
Post #24 of 36
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Because LOTR is vastly superior to the hobbit
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If anything, the CGI in the hobbit should have their designs changed to be consistent with that of the LOTR.
The Hobbit newer tech on it's side, the LOTR has style and superior designs.
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Mar 18 2013, 10:03pm
Post #25 of 36
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I absolutely love what Scott did in The Final Cut.
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Blade Runner has always been one of my favorite films (top 5 easily), and The Final Cut made me love it even more. I suggest everyone check it out-- the Blu-ray is spectacular.
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Tigero
Rivendell
Mar 19 2013, 4:12pm
Post #26 of 36
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The strength of Tolkien's weed was never really detailed
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Or maybe it was but i can't remember.
Pessimists have no disappointments.
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Oscarilbo
Lorien
Mar 19 2013, 4:18pm
Post #27 of 36
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I guess its a temptation WB itself can't refuse. It would be an epic undertaking, yes, but worthy of an epic trilogy that has grossed an epic amount of money. If that isn't the right combination for this to happen, I don't there's any then.
I purchased The Hobbit 3D bluray on sunday (my local Blockbuster released it a couple of days in advance here in my country) and after watching it, and after having watched Titanic 3D and Blade Runner: The Final Cut, which both were re-scanned entirely for 4K, I think LOTR 3D is inevitable once all three Hobbit movies are done, and I'm certain that WB will take that opportunity to do the conversion.
Furthermore, I think enhancing the trilogy to 4K including GCI, retouching up here and there physical details (visible wires, prosthetic imperfections) that may be dangerously evident, and replacing Ian Holm for Martin Freeman in FOTR prologue (and maybe the right Gollum there too), along with the option of 3D, would be the only way to guarantee a double dip from most of the fans and casual costumers.
So in the end, again, is an offer WB itself can not refuse.
"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"
(This post was edited by Oscarilbo on Mar 19 2013, 4:22pm)
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Mar 19 2013, 4:57pm
Post #28 of 36
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in the LOTR prologue as nicotania not cannabis.
"Now this babe was of greatest beauty; his skin of a shining white and his eyes of a blue surpassing that of the sky in southern lands - bluer than the sapphires of the raiment of Manwë; and the envy of Meglin was deep at his birth, but the joy of Turgon and all the people very great indeed." -The Fall of Gondolin
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Mar 19 2013, 5:55pm
Post #29 of 36
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I extoll the virtues and express my love of Blade Runner: The Final Cut every chance i get, and if Peter Jackson and Weta are offered the chance to do the same to The Lord of the Rings, they should take that chance and run with it. I myself would have zero problem hextuple/sextuple dipping (with TE, LE, EE dvd and TE, EE blu-ray) for such a release. I just hope that the extended editions get such a treatment as well-- They're the only ones i watch.
To the OP... Just curious, where did you come by this information? Seems pretty inside-ery stuff. How likely is this (want to know how much to get my hopes up)?
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celboy
The Shire
Mar 20 2013, 1:12am
Post #30 of 36
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But it has been done before for films like Blade Runner.
Bladerunner was mastered on film when they made it back in the day. All they've done is bring out the quality that was always there, (2k+4k), with the new digital mastering they've done.
LOTR was mastered at 2k resolution. They are not going to make a 4k from that. They would have to re-do the whole post work on the movie which no one will pay for---too much money$$$$$$$.
celboy
"I'm a libra. What sign are you?"--Dwan KK76
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sycorax82
Rohan
Mar 27 2013, 1:03am
Post #31 of 36
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We all know they will just upscale it to 4K...
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Are you seriously suggesting they would re-render all effects shots across the trilogy? Unless they have a small crew working on it over a decade or something, that's never going to happen.
I'm pretty sure they'll just use the 2K master (if that's what they really were mastered at. Do we honestly know this for sure or is it just guesswork?), which will look twice as good as Blu-ray anyway, so will be enough to merit a 4K format release.
Of course, that doesn't mean there won't be small tweaks made to each film. There are a few essential changes, like adding Martin Freeman's Bilbo into the FOTR prologue, as well as replacing the old Gollum design. Then there's that shot at the end of TTT where Eomer's double was never replaced with Karl Urban. A digital face replacement is needed there. Oh, and I would digitally erase Aragorn losing his sword twice during the Lurtz fight! and...Sam pulling his sword out of Shelob twice!! I'm guessing Peter has a list of things he would change, and I would be welcome to anything as long as it was an improvement!
The FOTR colour grading needs to be redone, regardless of what format or resolution it next sees the light of day in.
(This post was edited by sycorax82 on Mar 27 2013, 1:05am)
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Mar 27 2013, 11:09am
Post #32 of 36
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It didn't take a decade to do the CGI first time round...
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Why would it take longer to re-do it when they have archived all the digital files and already know what the result needs to look like? This technique, as I said, has been done many times before for things like Blade Runner and Fifth Element. It's really not uncommon. But it is extremely expensive.
The fact that the final masters are in 2K was revealed when they released the extended Blu-rays - When they first scanned the film to be digitally graded and have all the CGI composting and whatnot, they were handled, and therefore printed, in a 2K resolution, because there was really no reason to go any higher. But now that 4K is becoming a standard, it makes sense to re-scan the original film and re-render everything. And why not touch it up while they're at it?
Luckily, the archiving for these things is extremely organised these days, so unlike Star Wars, where they had to re-find a lot of the old footage, it''s likely that everything they need is already saved and organised and therefore easily obtainable for touching-up.
It's interesting, people don't usually realise how much work goes into making these remasters, it's the reason things like Star Wars were so expensive when they came out. It's insane to think about, but it does happen - Although for LotR it would admittedly be the biggest undertaking yet, without any doubt.
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Misto
Lorien
Mar 27 2013, 10:47pm
Post #33 of 36
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*shudders* Personally I find 4k and modern CGI speak against the Hobbit rather than in its favour. But then that's just my two cents.
I reckon whatever keeps the sales department happy is going to happen.
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Patty
Immortal
Mar 30 2013, 12:28pm
Post #34 of 36
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Permanent address: Into the West
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Patty
Immortal
Mar 30 2013, 12:34pm
Post #35 of 36
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I so hope to own LotR in 3D someday. And if they can please
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Take that opportunity to fix the color on Fellowship why, that'd just be a big ole plus!
Permanent address: Into the West
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peterbarto
Registered User
Jan 24 2016, 7:34pm
Post #36 of 36
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4k scans only possible when not shot digitally
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there isnt any 4k scan possible EVER when the trilogy was shot in digital 2k, this is the problem with digital vs analog, there isnt any scan possible that go higher than 2k when shot in 2k digitally. at the time it was grandeur back in 2001 but jackson made a big mistake back then that he eventually made up with the hobbit in 4k 3D 48fps but then again... if its really 4k i dunno, its possible he shot it in 6k or 8k. dont expect 4k scans from 2k digital masters because it doesnt work like that, scans only possible with real film original negative masters, not with digital sources. i'm srry to bring you this ill news
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