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DanielLB
Immortal
Mar 4 2013, 6:32pm
Post #2 of 37
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Thranduil is a bit of a rotter anyway
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Putting the Dwarves in prison for trespassing and provoking the spiders is a good enough reason; whether or not Thranduil knows it is Thorin.
And don't forget that Thorin is worried (in AUJ) that others may have read the same signs, and also go after the gold. If Thranduil knows about their Quest, perhaps he's tempted to get there before him?
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dormouse
Half-elven
Mar 4 2013, 6:59pm
Post #4 of 37
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My hero (at age 8-ish) and, as we all know, 'the lord of a good and kindly people'. And well within his rights to round up a group of dwarves who kept disrupting his people - 'did you not three times pursue and trouble my people in the forest and rouse the spiders with your riot and clamour' - and then wouldn't say what they were doing in his land. Mirkwood's a dangerous place, you know, can't be too careful....
Seriously, I don't think that the fact that film Thranduil clearly knows the Erebor dwarves needs change very much. In the book the Elvenking doesn't use Thorin's name, but he doesn't ask who he is either. He asks why the dwarves attacked his people - which is presumably how it seemed to the elves - where the dwarves had come from, where they were going, what they were doing. For all he knew, they might have been the forerunners of a dwarf army coming to attack him - it wouldn't be the first time. You could read that whole passage in the sense that the King knew who Thorin was and it wouldn't alter anything - it's the dwarves' intentions he's worried by; for all we know he does recognise Thorin.
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Rostron2
Gondor
Mar 4 2013, 7:02pm
Post #5 of 37
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I guess the only thing we can say for certain is that it's going to be debated whether he was fairly or unfairly characterized. There's not a lot of source material to go on, so it's going to mean a lot of writer/director/actor dramatic license will be taken with his character.
In general, he ought to be a 'gray' figure in this quest. He does the right thing in the end, since the enemies of the dwarves are his enemies, but the elves are kind of like some countries: They stay neutral until they can't any more.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Mar 4 2013, 7:04pm
Post #6 of 37
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Thranduil comes across far less jerk-y in the book than in the film
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And I fully agree that he has every right for imprisoning them. I think, however, that the film deliberately sets it up so that Thranduil comes across as a rotter. I can't imagine any non-reader not thinking that Thranduil is a mean-spirited elf.
It'll be interesting to see how this plays out in DOS and TABA.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Mar 4 2013, 7:28pm
Post #7 of 37
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Perhaps Thorin and Thranduil have more in common than is good for them
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Thranduil is of the Firstborn who never saw the light of the Two Trees, and as Tolkien wrote was more wild and less wise that other Elves - presumably those who did see the Light (although this detail would not be described until later in canon). He also has quite a significant desire to possess certain wealth- I believe white gems were his trinkets of choice, not quite in line with the desires of other wiser Elves.
Thorin is a direct male descendant of Durin, the greatest of the Elf-friends among the Dwarven fathers. So between all the races of Elves and Dwarves I think they are the most similar to each other and in the position to most closely have certain resemblances to each other in behavior.
I envision a Venn diagram with Thranduil and Thorin, with the overlap being possession of gems of beauty and uniqueness. And since the traits shared in common involve desire for possession of the same general types of items, and are thereby competitive, and sets up a rivalry. Take by contrast an overlap of, for example, social customs or shared ideals, which may bring people or races closer together rather than farther apart.
Of course the most beautiful and unique of all the white gemstones would be the Arkenstone...is there motive here held in common that explains both their actions?
And how amazingly EXPLOSIVE does Bilbo's handing over the Arkenstone to The Enemy become, when Thranduil is probably rubbing nbis long white hands together to get hold of it!
And to add as contrast - Elrond and Thorin have no Venn overlap, yet through Elrond's greater wisdom a (tentative) peace was begun between them.
It could explain why Thranduil pays homage to Thror as long as the flow of gems continues, but why he shows no compassion when Thror is wounded and stumbling out from Erebor. Aside from whatever the film team is doing, I think the similarity metaphor holds up based on what we know about the charactars just from text.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 4 2013, 7:34pm)
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Mar 4 2013, 7:46pm
Post #8 of 37
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Or for killing his stag in Mirkwood. Which isn't an unlikely speculation IMO //
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macfalk
Valinor
Mar 4 2013, 7:53pm
Post #9 of 37
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Sorry, couldn't disagree more!
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<Thranduil rant commencing>
I think Thranduil is greedy and treats the dwarves like garbage. Imprisoning travelers in dark cells underground for weeks. Fine, if you want to play the tough lord in your homeland, I suppose he was in his rights.
But when the news reach him that the dragon has fallen (the treasures are unguarded) he loses his last shred of respect for me. He's a hypocrite, and has no problem tresspassing into other people's lands, but when someone walks into his own land, you get a free ride to the Mirkwood dark cells.
<Thranduil rant finished>
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Mar 4 2013, 8:08pm
Post #10 of 37
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Another thought about Thranduil finding out the purpose of why they are in Mirwkood
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In the book, the Elves put a spell on Thorin when they drag him back to Thranduil's Halls ...
Perhaps they use the spell to find out his true purpose, and why they are travelling through Mirkwood.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Mar 4 2013, 8:15pm
Post #11 of 37
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He does give them plenty of food and water (not to mention shelter away from the spiders!)
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If he was that mean, he'd just let them rot in his cells. He was never going to best buddies with the Company - the Elves and Dwarves have too much history between them.
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Dwarf Cupcake
The Shire
Mar 4 2013, 11:05pm
Post #12 of 37
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( I know, dangerous...  )Perhaps they're setting Thranduil up to be an antagonist. Not the villain, but someone who gets in the way of the heroes on their way to their goal. Just the impression I got from the way he was shown in THUJ.
Not All those who wander are lost...
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dormouse
Half-elven
Mar 4 2013, 11:25pm
Post #13 of 37
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I think the spell just knocks him out, doesn't it?
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If it also gave them access to his mind they wouldn't have had to ask what he was up to.
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Elenorflower
Gondor
Mar 4 2013, 11:31pm
Post #14 of 37
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I agree. In the book Thranduil
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was not a horrible Elf. He did all he could to help the people of Laketown when they were in desperate trouble. He was fair minded and not selfish at all. The only 'negative' thing that could be said of him was that he imprisoned the Dwarves, but the Dwarves were well treated at all times, and I think Thranduil wanted answers to the Dwarves stubborn silence more than he wanted to imprison anyone. He also liked jools, but he didnt insist on keeping anything after the battle of 5 A. Bilbo liked him and not only wished to fight by the side of the Elvenking (and Bilbo was a good judge of character) he also presented Thranduil with an emerald necklace because he knew Thranduil would like it. That all says to me that in the book at least Thranduil was a jolly nice sort.
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Elenorflower
Gondor
Mar 4 2013, 11:39pm
Post #15 of 37
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but Thranduil didnt tresspass anywhere. He went to the aid of the people of Laketown, Dale was deserted, and he thought the Dwarves were all dead, plus no body lived in the Desolation of Smaug, so I fail to see who's land he tresspassed on, unless you mean the Giant Snails rocks.
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Finrod
Rohan
Mar 5 2013, 1:45am
Post #16 of 37
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The Elvenking was one of the good guys
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but Thranduil didn’t tresspass anywhere. He went to the aid of the people of Laketown, Dale was deserted, and he thought the Dwarves were all dead, plus no body lived in the Desolation of Smaug, so I fail to see who's land he tresspassed on, unless you mean the Giant Snails rocks.
Quite right!
The Elvenking was gentler than many a mortal ruler, who would regularly put all poachers of the royal woodland (where the king himself did hunt) to the sword, no matter whether they were starving or not.
And he’s the one who quite nobly proclaimed:But the Elvenking said: “Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold. The dwarves cannot press us, unless we will, or do anything that we cannot mark. Let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation. Our advantage in numbers will be enough, if in the end it must come to unhappy blows.” And remember, too, Bilbo at the end:He had taken his stand on Ravenhill among the Elves — partly because there was more chance of escape from that point, and partly (with the more Tookish part of his mind) because if he was going to be in a last desperate stand, he preferred on the whole to defend the Elvenking. What could be clearer?
Both the Hobbit and the Elvenking withstood the dragon sickness much better than the Dwarves, who seemed particularly susceptible. Do not forget thatThey dwelt most often by the edges of the woods, from which they could escape at times to hunt, or to ride and run over the open lands by moonlight or starlight; and after the coming of Men they took ever more and more to the gloaming and the dusk. Still elves they were and remain, and that is Good People. Tolkien’s position on his Elves here is unambiguous.
…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.The Silmarillion, pp 150-151 while Felagund laughs beneath the treesin Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.The Lays of Beleriand, p 311
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marillaraina
Rohan
Mar 5 2013, 2:18am
Post #17 of 37
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I agree with Macfolk. I never liked the Elvenking in the book. Sure it's nice he gave them food and water and didn't beat them, but he STILL imprisoned them.
They were not attacking the elves, they were trying to get help and the elves disappeared every time they showed up. It was dark and confusing in the woods, they were starving. Unlike the elves who were in their home territory and familiar with the woods. The elves themselves show little compassion for them if they kept disappearing and didn't even try to talk to them.
Now I understand they weren't omniscient and may have thought they were being attacked, but as I said, they are elves, they are familiar with the area, it would not be terribly hard to figure out it was a just a group of 13 starving dwarves who maybe they could VOLUNTEER to help, had they bothered to make even a small effort to figure out what was happening. Even if they were being attacked, you'd think they'd want to "know their enemy" and if they'd done that it would have pretty easy to see it was 13 fairly clueless very hungry dwarves..
If the elves, and Thranduil in particular, are so "wise and king" then IMO the normal "human" reasons for such behavior cannot be used to excuse their behavior.
Imprisoned is imprisoned, it doesn't matter if the captors are "nice" they are still captors. More, the dwarves were at least semi-isolated and Thorin himself was essentially in solitary confinement not near any of them. That is rather cruel in itself considering how important and companionship appear to be to the dwarves.
Sure Thranduil went to help Laketown, but he had ZERO business having anything at all to do with the trouble regarding getting a share of the treasure that had belonged for Dale, or frankly, getting any kind of "repayment" for himself, because that suggests he didn't help them out of the kindness of his heart but because he figured he'd get it back, so no skin off his nose and it would make him look good, keep the wheels of commerce flowing easily between them.
If he was so serious about not going to war for gold, then he should NOT have been there when the battle started. He should have refused to take part and left. In hindsight it may be good he was there(extra hands when the wargs and orcs and goblins, etc showed) but there was no way of knowing that would happen to start with. But it wasn't his fight.
I think Tolkien was just in love with elves because to be honest I saw very little reason for Bilbo to so "If I have to go war I'd want to defend the Elvenking". :) And to seem so in awe of him, especially when many of the dwarves had been good to him.
Obviously Thranduil was not evil or a bad guy, but even in the book I thought he was a real first class jerk and quite greedy himself and in fact rather lacking in what seemed like real compassion.
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Mar 5 2013, 2:26am)
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Escapist
Gondor
Mar 5 2013, 2:24am
Post #18 of 37
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I think the imprisonment situation was epicly sad
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because you know that the elves are good people and so are the dwarves, but instead of partying together we get this.
I can't blame the Elvenking too much, though, because when he demanded an explanation Thorin refused and in dark times under the shadow from Dol Guldur, that is not something to treat lightly.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Mar 5 2013, 2:33am
Post #19 of 37
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because you know that the elves are good people and so are the dwarves, but instead of partying together we get this.
I can't blame the Elvenking too much, though, because when he demanded an explanation Thorin refused and in dark times under the shadow from Dol Guldur, that is not something to treat lightly.
Oh I don't know. He had 13 dwarves who apparently could barely manage to feed themselves. Does he really think they are working for some dark force? And even if they are, if they are that incompetent, hardly anything to worry about.
It makes him look sort of stupid if he did. Especially after having them imprisoned for so long. It just seemed mean for the sake of it. Not cruel but mean. I'd say after a couple days it would be obvious they were just a group of dwarves who had gotten lost and just wanted to get the hell out of there and continue on their way. If it's dark to the elves who are familiar with it, the elves would have to realize it would even worse and more confusing to people who had never even been there before.
To me Thranduil just came across as looking for an excuse to imprison them because he didn't like dwarves and esp didn't like not being answered, not because he actually was in any way worried about them in actuality or because he really had any right to know.
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macfalk
Valinor
Mar 5 2013, 8:32am
Post #20 of 37
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You leave out one, but very vital detail
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"but Thranduil didnt tresspass anywhere.
Um, he went with an army to Laketown (definately outside his borders) with hostile intentions.
"He went to the aid of the people of Laketown,"
Oh, no. No, no, no... that was not his initial plan. Only after witnessed the destruction of Laketown in person did he help the people. His plan was always to march forward to the Mountain (where the gold dwelled that he so badly wanted, but was never his to take) and take it by force
As for "tresspassing" or not, I suppose that lies in the eye of the beholder. He's a hypocrite though, according to him it's a severe crime to wander through his woods, but taking an army to steal treasures that aren't his in a land that he is tresspassing on, is no problem for him. He's obsessed with gems, as Tolkien wrote, and would do anything to become as wealthy as the other Elven lords.
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
(This post was edited by macfalk on Mar 5 2013, 8:33am)
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DanielLB
Immortal
Mar 5 2013, 9:31am
Post #21 of 37
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But I wouldn't mind a deviation from the text. Perhaps it's similar to Galadriel's mind-reading power?
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Mar 5 2013, 9:52am
Post #22 of 37
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He aint tresspassing until he refuses to leave as requested by the owner of the land.
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The assumption was that Thorin and Co were dead, and the mountain uninhabited. I will agree with you on this macfalk, it seems to me the reason to lay seige to the lonely mountain was tenuous at best for those of Laketown and entirely without just cause from Thranduil. Aiding the Lakemen is one thing, going to war on their behalf is another. This plot point has always concerned me, it is like the entire situation irrationally escalated.
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macfalk
Valinor
Mar 5 2013, 10:20am
Post #23 of 37
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When I come to this point in the book, I always find sympathy for the Laketown people and Bard. I can't however, for the life of me find any sympathy for the Mirkwood elves. I always think: Why are they here? The matter of Erebor and the gold should be no concern of theirs.
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Mar 5 2013, 11:05am
Post #24 of 37
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Well, you see, I've always read it completely the other way
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..from 8 years old onwards. The dwarves to me were grumpy old men with beards. They were mean to Bilbo, rude to Gandalf. They caught me in the beginning with 'Far over the Misty Mountains' and that sense of loss and longing - I was always a sucker for lost battles - but the way they grumbled their way through the journey dispelled the sympathy. I didn't mind Fili and Kili - probably because they were the youngest, but the others, no.
So when it came to Mirkwood, and those lovely mysterious glimpses of the Elves out being elves - the lights and the music - and the Elvenking, so beautiful and so beautifully spoken, so obviously noble and nice - I couldn't understand why Bilbo didn't just tell him everything and join up with the Elves. His decision to stand with the Elvenking in the battle made perfect sense to me then and it still does - hang it all, Thorin had just come close to killing him and the others didn't raise a finger to help.
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imin
Valinor
Mar 5 2013, 1:06pm
Post #25 of 37
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Never cared much for nasty Thranduil, lol. Put me off elves for a few years when i was little and sealed the deal for my liking of the dwarves.
Thranduil was basically a jerk - this coming from my view of a 7/8 year old.
(This post was edited by imin on Mar 5 2013, 1:06pm)
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Elenorflower
Gondor
Mar 5 2013, 1:36pm
Post #26 of 37
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Thranduil was heading for the Mountain with a small guard not an army to investigate not invade. On the way he heard about the plight of the people of Laketown. He could have ignored them, but he deviated his route and sent scouts ahead to find out the situation, once he knew the situation he sent Elves back to Mirkwood to gather many supplies for the people of Laketown. thus saving many lives. He assumed the Dwarves were all crispy fried by Smaug and obviously wanted to investigate and maybe a share of the wealth. He is a king it would be his duty to gain wealth as the Elves did not participate in agriculture they had to buy all their goods from Laketown. They needed gold to trade.
As for imprisoning the Dwarves, I think people have conveniently forgotten the Necromancer was active in Mirkwood at this time. As far as Thranduil knew they could have been servants of his enemy, up to no good, but because the Dwarves were stubbornly silent he was suspicious as any king would be. He had a duty to protect his people from the Necromancer and other enemies.
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macfalk
Valinor
Mar 5 2013, 2:00pm
Post #27 of 37
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Sorry, but I think we have very different opinions on this matter.
"Thranduil was heading for the Mountain with a small guard not an army to investigate not invade. On the way he heard about the plight of the people of Laketown."
Why does he need to investigate matters that are no concern of his, in a land way beyond his borders? He already made it clear what he thinks about tresspassers in his own lands, but marching over lands not belonging to him is totally cool?
"He could have ignored them, but he deviated his route and sent scouts ahead to find out the situation, once he knew the situation he sent Elves back to Mirkwood to gather many supplies for the people of Laketown. thus saving many lives."
Yes, only after witnessing the destruction of Laketown did he help them out. That was never the intention. As for the heroic Elves he brought with him to fetch supplies for Laketown, well, that is only partially true. He did bring them supplies but he also brought a huge army on Thorin's doorsteps. If helping Laketown was all he wanted, why does he need a vast host of armed warriors with him?
"Smaug and obviously wanted to investigate and maybe a share of the wealth. He is a king it would be his duty to gain wealth as the Elves did not participate in agriculture they had to buy all their goods from Laketown. They needed gold to trade."
That's the problem right there. The "share of the wealth" does not belong to him. None of it. He wants the wealth for himself, Tolkien even stated that Thranduil was envious of other Elven lords with more money and treasures than he had and that his greatest weakness was his obsession of gems and precious stones. As for "duty" - I just can't see it. And I don't think agriculture had anything to do with it...
"As for imprisoning the Dwarves, I think people have conveniently forgotten the Necromancer was active in Mirkwood at this time. As far as Thranduil knew they could have been servants of his enemy, up to no good, but because the Dwarves were stubbornly silent he was suspicious as any king would be. He had a duty to protect his people from the Necromancer and other enemies. "
A bunch of beggar-dwarves, starving without food (for days) un-armed? And why would they speak out about their private plans to their captor? If Thranduil thought that the dwarves were servants of the Necromancer, then he's not very bright.
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
(This post was edited by macfalk on Mar 5 2013, 2:00pm)
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Elenorflower
Gondor
Mar 5 2013, 2:27pm
Post #28 of 37
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had always fought over jewels, its hardly something particular to Thranduil and Thorin. After Thingol had been murdered by the Dwarves and the Simaril stolen, I imagine Thranduil was a bit touchy about Dwarven claims on jools. Especially if he thought the Dwarves were dead. I imagine he thought he could use the treasure for his people as nobody seemed to own it, and better that the Elves have it than the orcs or other foul creatures. Thranduil supported Bards claim on the treasure, he could have taken all the treasure but he didnt he let Bard take it for the reconstruction of Dale so why you think he was there for war and plunder I really cant understand. Thranduil conducted himself honourably throughout.
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macfalk
Valinor
Mar 5 2013, 3:42pm
Post #29 of 37
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I never said he was there for war and plunder.
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I said he was there for the treasure, and he brought his armies to back up his non-existant claim.
I suppose this is the part when I say "agree to disagree", because this isn't going anywhere, I'm not convincing you and you're not convincing me
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Mar 5 2013, 9:58pm
Post #30 of 37
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About captors. . . I must disagree. It matters how they treat, though I agree the isolation
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was definitely a cruelty in and of itself. But a captor who feeds you and gives you all of the requisite creature comforts is a good deal better than one who treats you to torment. There is a difference, and it DOES matter. That said, The Elves could have been better captors, and Gloin had a point in saying that they had been less kind to his folk than they were to the wretched Gollum. The Elves should have had a courtyard for the prisoners to go out into. One would think the nature and star loving Elves would have thought of such a thing. Also, the solitaire was cruel. But, in the film version Kili and Fili at the least may be getting conjugal visits from an Elf named Tauriel. . . and I can think of many who would volunteer to be imprisoned under those conditions. Lmao.  If Gimli is an indicator of Legolas' tastes, Gloin might also be getting a visit from an Elf.  All right, now I am just being incorrigable. Au revoir. I agree with Macfolk. I never liked the Elvenking in the book. Sure it's nice he gave them food and water and didn't beat them, but he STILL imprisoned them.
They were not attacking the elves, they were trying to get help and the elves disappeared every time they showed up. It was dark and confusing in the woods, they were starving. Unlike the elves who were in their home territory and familiar with the woods. The elves themselves show little compassion for them if they kept disappearing and didn't even try to talk to them.
Now I understand they weren't omniscient and may have thought they were being attacked, but as I said, they are elves, they are familiar with the area, it would not be terribly hard to figure out it was a just a group of 13 starving dwarves who maybe they could VOLUNTEER to help, had they bothered to make even a small effort to figure out what was happening. Even if they were being attacked, you'd think they'd want to "know their enemy" and if they'd done that it would have pretty easy to see it was 13 fairly clueless very hungry dwarves..
If the elves, and Thranduil in particular, are so "wise and king" then IMO the normal "human" reasons for such behavior cannot be used to excuse their behavior.
Imprisoned is imprisoned, it doesn't matter if the captors are "nice" they are still captors. More, the dwarves were at least semi-isolated and Thorin himself was essentially in solitary confinement not near any of them. That is rather cruel in itself considering how important and companionship appear to be to the dwarves.
Sure Thranduil went to help Laketown, but he had ZERO business having anything at all to do with the trouble regarding getting a share of the treasure that had belonged for Dale, or frankly, getting any kind of "repayment" for himself, because that suggests he didn't help them out of the kindness of his heart but because he figured he'd get it back, so no skin off his nose and it would make him look good, keep the wheels of commerce flowing easily between them.
If he was so serious about not going to war for gold, then he should NOT have been there when the battle started. He should have refused to take part and left. In hindsight it may be good he was there(extra hands when the wargs and orcs and goblins, etc showed) but there was no way of knowing that would happen to start with. But it wasn't his fight.
I think Tolkien was just in love with elves because to be honest I saw very little reason for Bilbo to so "If I have to go war I'd want to defend the Elvenking". :) And to seem so in awe of him, especially when many of the dwarves had been good to him.
Obviously Thranduil was not evil or a bad guy, but even in the book I thought he was a real first class jerk and quite greedy himself and in fact rather lacking in what seemed like real compassion.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Mar 5 2013, 9:59pm
Post #31 of 37
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A thought on Thranduil that doesn't have much to do with his future
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Thranduil does that odd head tilt that Legolas did LOTR, especially when he was trying to comprehend the emotions of mortals. Must be in the genes. 
"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Mar 5 2013, 10:00pm
Post #32 of 37
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Also, Thranduil was very fond and respectful of Gandalf, and that is a mark of good character
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but Thranduil didn’t tresspass anywhere. He went to the aid of the people of Laketown, Dale was deserted, and he thought the Dwarves were all dead, plus no body lived in the Desolation of Smaug, so I fail to see who's land he tresspassed on, unless you mean the Giant Snails rocks. Quite right!
The Elvenking was gentler than many a mortal ruler, who would regularly put all poachers of the royal woodland (where the king himself did hunt) to the sword, no matter whether they were starving or not.
And he’s the one who quite nobly proclaimed: But the Elvenking said: “Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold. The dwarves cannot press us, unless we will, or do anything that we cannot mark. Let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation. Our advantage in numbers will be enough, if in the end it must come to unhappy blows.” And remember, too, Bilbo at the end: He had taken his stand on Ravenhill among the Elves — partly because there was more chance of escape from that point, and partly (with the more Tookish part of his mind) because if he was going to be in a last desperate stand, he preferred on the whole to defend the Elvenking. What could be clearer?
Both the Hobbit and the Elvenking withstood the dragon sickness much better than the Dwarves, who seemed particularly susceptible. Do not forget that They dwelt most often by the edges of the woods, from which they could escape at times to hunt, or to ride and run over the open lands by moonlight or starlight; and after the coming of Men they took ever more and more to the gloaming and the dusk. Still elves they were and remain, and that is Good People. Tolkien’s position on his Elves here is unambiguous.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Mar 5 2013, 10:01pm)
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Mar 5 2013, 10:06pm
Post #33 of 37
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You fail to take into account the power of a pretty face. lol. And of enchanting presence.
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How often do people give leeway or prefference to people and even animals that they find beautiful (even when it is not sexually motivated), where otherwise they would not? The studies show that the answer is very often. Bilbo had always been fascinated by Elves, and upon meeting them found them as magical and lovely as he had dreamed. They didn't have to do anything to gain his fondness other than exist and NOT be particularly wicked. lol I think Tolkien was just in love with elves because to be honest I saw very little reason for Bilbo to so "If I have to go war I'd want to defend the Elvenking". :) And to seem so in awe of him, especially when many of the dwarves had been good to him.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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marillaraina
Rohan
Mar 6 2013, 12:50am
Post #34 of 37
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Actually that's kind of my point
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Bilbo's reasons for doing so were not really reasons at all. Being beautiful really is just a shallow thing and thus Bilbo's reasons were ultimately shallow. There was no real reason, other than aesthetics. Frankly it's no better or even really no different than the dwarves love for gems and gold. It's a shallow thing.
(And given the dwarves were originally born from stone - they are kind of their relatives. LOL).
Oh yes I agree obviously it's better if a captor feeds you than if they beat and torture you, but it's still captivity. I mean it's sort of like saying hey "It's really not so bad to be a slave if your master treats you well, what's so bad about it? Why aren't you nicer and more thankful to your nice master?" Because hello...he's still your "master" and you are still his "slave".
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Mar 6 2013, 12:58am)
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Mar 6 2013, 1:14am
Post #35 of 37
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They were reasons. Whether or not they were good reasons is another matter.
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But, as with The Council of Elrond taking so much notice of Frodo, Gandalf is one good reason. If Gandalf will share a tent with you and not seem full of ire in the process, and will stand with you, you cannot be all bad as Bilbo would note.
Bilbo's reasons may have been based on superficial things. That doesn't stop them from being reasons. Lots of people do silly things based on naught but being enchanted. . . or bewitched. lol
And, yes, it is still captivity. . . but it STILL makes a big difference. Political correctness should not trump truth. lol. Life and financial institutions may yet enslave us all. Feanor felt The Valar were holding him and his people captive. Much good his freedom did him. This is by NO means an advocation of anyone being imprisoned or enslaved. Both are horrible, but there are degrees to horror, and it is inaccurate to pretend otherwise. Bilbo's reasons for doing so were not really reasons at all. Being beautiful really is just a shallow thing and thus Bilbo's reasons were ultimately shallow. There was no real reason, other than aesthetics. Frankly it's no better or even really no different than the dwarves love for gems and gold. It's a shallow thing.
(And given the dwarves were originally born from stone - they are kind of their relatives. LOL).
Oh yes I agree obviously it's better if a captor feeds you than if they beat and torture you, but it's still captivity. I mean it's sort of like saying hey "It's really not so bad to be a slave if your master treats you well, what's so bad about it? Why aren't you nicer and more thankful to your nice master?" Because hello...he's still your "master" and you are still his "slave".
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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dik-dik
Lorien
Mar 6 2013, 1:29pm
Post #36 of 37
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In the films he and Thorin know each other, so no wonder Thranduils knows what he, Thorin, and his companions are going to do in Erebor, or maybe he doesn´t know.
So I guess the whole interrogation scene in Thranduil´s palace will change.
Thoughts?
I'm wondering about that too; namely, on what grounds he imprisons the group (does he have no guilty conscience when recalling the past events?). I guess there'll be an epic snarling quarrel between Thranduil and Thorin, and I can totally imagine the latter doing a spinoff of the book universe 'hungry' argument, given that Thranduil effectively left the Dwarves to die of hunger in the wilds in the movie prologue. Except... I'd be surprised if the team included something as non-epic as simple starvation.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for a plausible imprisonment reason that doesn't lower my opinion on movie-Thranduil any more than movie 1 has. The Elvenking could mention the Silm. stuff included in The Hobbit and LotR books themselves, or think that the Dwarves have allied with evil forces from Dol Guldur... just no more unexplained meanness for me, please. 
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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Cirashala
Valinor
Mar 6 2013, 11:06pm
Post #37 of 37
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I honestly think that Bilbo stood with the elvenking for a couple reasons:
1. He had always been fascinated by elves
2. he had seen Thorin go mad (and Thorin banished him so it would be risking death to join the dwarves)
3. He undoubtedly felt very guilty for stealing food from the elvenking's halls during the dwarves' imprisonment (a feeling that was proven when Bilbo "paid" the elvenking for his "er, hospitality" with the emerald necklace after the battle
4. He had little understanding of politics and as such probably was not as aware of the strife between elves and dwarves, or if he was aware probably didn't understand it as it was not in his capacity as a kind, gentle soul of a hobbit to understand complex things like hate and greed and gold lust
5. His treatment in Rivendell may have led him to assume that all elves are generally nice and wise, and thus his first impression may have misled his impressions of Thranduil
6. He may have been impressed that they elves were willing to aid the people of Laketown and also aid in the battle.
All in all, I believe that Bilbo did not understand a lot of the complexities that we do (as more learned and outside observers who know the whole story), and as such his decision to stand with the elvenking during the battle is something that I would understand from his perspective, even if I personally think that Thranduil isn't the "perfect" elvenking that Bilbo believes him to be (meaning I think he is a bit of a greedy jerk too-and perhaps his personality is too similar to Thorin's and so they may see each other's faults in the other and are far too alike to get along!)
Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm
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