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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 14 2013, 5:14am
Post #1 of 47
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A Middle English Vocabulary Challenge -- Valantine's Edition
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Welcome to another edition of A Middle English Vocabulary Challenge (MEVC). For those who like a little romance with their romaunce, this instalment is in honour of Valentine's Day!
Many of you know the drill... flowers, a box of chocolates, candles and soft music... with all that, who wouldn't be in the mood for a little Tolkien inspired philological fun?
It is difficult to defend the appropriateness of a Valentine's Day edition of MEVC without spoiling Tolkien's most significant Middle English text, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Suffice it to say, Sir Gawain's biggest challenge is not having to attend at the Green Chapel to have his head chopped off by the Green Knight, rather it is how he should respond during some romantic situations on the way there.
Now to the matter at hand:
Our word game is based on a list of ten words drawn from two of J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle English glossaries:
A) A Middle English Vocabulary, by J.R.R. Tolkien, as published in Sisam, Kenneth, ed. Fourteenth Century Verse & Prose, London: Oxford University Press, 1955; and
B) The Glossary published in Tolkien & Gordon ed. Sir Gawain & The Green Knight, London: Oxford University Press, 1963.
Note: publication dates are of my copies; yours may be as old as 1922 and 1925 respectively.
The Rules:
This is a game of guessing, reasoned or otherwise. If you want to be funny, take it to Main (just kidding!!! please answer in whatever way seems best to you). We ask those who have access to the glossaries to wait until after posting to look up the words! As always, no answers in subject lines please.
The Challenge:
For each of the following words, please state its definition and/or a contemporary equivalent word as you deem appropriate.
1. holsumly
2. forşer
3. reuerence
4. laȝter
5. sweuenes
6. ȝiftis
7. forȝeue
8. şryue
9. ouermoche
10. teuelyng
A little help here:
Regarding the characters ş and ȝ -- as not to make things too easy, let's just say one can usually be read as "gh," the other as "th." At the end of words one often sounds the same as the letter "z."
As well, it may pay to hearken to NZ Strider via NEB: "Try reading Middle English aloud while looking at the text. A few words that your eye misses your ear will catch."
Answers to follow within a few days... what are you waiting for? 
___
(Cool story: The other day I met a fellow who had just found a 1922 edition of A Middle English Vocabulary -- published separately from Sisam, apparently -- among a late professor's library he purchased during an estate sale. Can you imagine?)
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Roheryn
Tol Eressea
Feb 14 2013, 6:30am
Post #2 of 47
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a reprint of Tolkien's and Gordon's Sir Gawain on a shelf of miscellaneous used books in an auction warehouse in Rangiora, a small town in New Zealand just north of Christchurch. For two dollars, or whatever it was, I snapped it up. I think I have the same edition of Sisam's book as you.
Appropriately for the day the full name of Tolkien's collaborator was Eric Valentine Gordon, by the way.
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Feb 14 2013, 1:56pm
Post #3 of 47
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1. holsumly - wholesomely
2. forşer - further? farther? If I must guess one...further.
3. reuerence - reverence
4. laȝter - laughter
5. sweuenes - swans? swines? swains? Gah. I will go with swains, it is the most Valentiney among my guesses.
6. ȝiftis - gifts
7. forȝeue - forgo
8. şryue - thrive
9. ouermoche - overmuch
10. teuelyng - toiling
Weird, the forum likes only one of the special Middle English characters. Maybe next time I need to quote, not copy and paste...!
Nope, tried that too, it still does not like the cursive z that sounds like "gh". Only the th one!
(This post was edited by arithmancer on Feb 14 2013, 1:59pm)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 14 2013, 2:12pm
Post #4 of 47
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How cool is that? And I always assumed the E stood for Eugene. I guess I was confusing him with Vinaver, another Mid-Twentieth Century, Oxford published purveyor of Middle English.
Eric. Valentine. Gordon. (Gordon is a family name don't you know.) Wow, this could not have turned out better... unless no one plays, in which case I suppose it could have.
The MEVC is a game for all skill levels, an opportunity for us to learn together as we contend with words as Tolkien may have -- they're his glossaries so there's a very good chance he began by guessing at some of the words himself. I do hope people give it a whirl.
Besides, there's this arcane rule:
"In the first instance of replying to a challenge thread, the poster shall guesseth at the wordis."
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 14 2013, 2:35pm
Post #5 of 47
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Yes, regarding yogh ( Ȝ ) and thorn ( ş ): if you are using chrome (maybe it's the same for IE, et al?) it is best to copy the text from the thread pane rather than to do it from the reply pane. In other words, copy the list before clicking "Reply to this Post." AND you have to set "Post Style" (inside the reply pane) to "Markup and HTML."
Here are the steps again:
Copy text from inside thread
Click Reply to this Post
Set Post Style to Markup and HTML
Paste text into reply pane
One other thing you should know: if you edit the post (in the 10 minute window for doing so) the characters may change to code... you will have to (quickly) copy and paste the characters from somewhere else (open a new tab, hurry, hurry!) and make sure you reset Post Style to Markup and HTML before finishing the edit.
All this is to say I really commend anyone who gets the characters to present correctly.
Phew. Thanks arithmancer! 
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 14 2013, 4:18pm
Post #6 of 47
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For Valentine's and to increase the u count in this thread,
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which is quite substantial already:
"Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a bygone vexation stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition! The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V." http://en.wikiquote.org/..._for_Vendetta_(film)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Feb 14 2013, 5:43pm
Post #7 of 47
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1. holsumly - wholesomely. Holding hands on a date, and that's all.
2. forşer - forger, as in forging a signature?
3. reuerence - reverence, how knights feel toward lovely Ladies
4. laȝter - leather? Well, I won't go there.
5. sweuenes - swoons. Superb word for Romance Day.
6. ȝiftis - gifts?
7. forȝeue - for thee?
8. şryue - no idea
9. ouermoche - overmuch. I think Eomer says that at Theoden's death, "Mourn not overmuch." If you love overmuch, you're a stalker.
10. teuelyng - toiling?
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Feb 14 2013, 6:14pm
Post #8 of 47
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1. holsumly--wholesomely
2. forşer--further (or farther?)
3. reuerence--reverence
4. laȝter--laughter
5. sweuenes--suaveness?
6. ȝiftis--gifts
7. forȝeue--forgive
8. şryue--thrive
9. ouermoche--overmuch
10. teuelyng-- no idea. All I can think of is "towelling" , and I'm pretty sure that's not right.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 15 2013, 3:33am
Post #9 of 47
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tried to tie the words to the theme... I set about trying to do so myself but it proved difficult. I think about 70% of the words relate to the theme without stretching overmuch ;) (I actually like that word -- I've used it around the place a few times.)
ps great guesses!
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Feb 15 2013, 3:34am)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 15 2013, 3:36am
Post #10 of 47
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Was thinking of you when making this list
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after the last one I thought you deserved more of a challenge.
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Morthoron
Gondor
Feb 15 2013, 4:34am
Post #11 of 47
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1. holsumly - comfortably
2. forşer - further
3. reuerence - reverence
4. laȝter - laughter
5. sweuenes - dreams
6. ȝiftis - gifts
7. forȝeue - forgive
8. şryue - thrive
9. ouermoche - overmuch, too much
10. teuelyng - toiling
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Feb 15 2013, 12:38pm
Post #12 of 47
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After looking at everyone else's answers
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I'm kicking myself over number 10 :-D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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BoromirOfWinterfell
Rohan
Feb 15 2013, 4:06pm
Post #13 of 47
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Ironically enough, my signature is from an Old English poem which is of course a lot more difficult than Middle English to understand. 
1. Wholesomely.
2. I would say "father", but that has nothing to do with Valentine's Day. I hope.
3. Reverence.
4. Laughter,
5. Suaveness.
6. Gift(s).
7. Forgive.
8. Thrive(?)
9. Smitten(it felt right...)
10. I have no idea.
Şæs ofereode, şisses swa mæg - that has passed, so may this.
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Feb 16 2013, 12:00pm
Post #14 of 47
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Ah, but is it a first edition? ;-)
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- in reply to:
(Cool story: The other day I met a fellow who had just found a 1922 edition of A Middle English Vocabulary -- published separately from Sisam, apparently -- among a late professor's library he purchased during an estate sale. Can you imagine?)
There are several examples of MEV about with the date 1922 on 'em, but they ain't firsts - take a look here
http://www.tolkienbooks.net/php/details.php?reference=11620
I have two copies - a reprint from 1945 IIRC, and also a re-bound copy which used to belong to one of Tolkien's former pupils Joan Blomfield, which I think might be a first. Funny story - I had occassion to write to Priscilla Tolkien about Joan some years ago, and P. kindly gave me several interesting snippets, inc. the fact that her parents had attended the wedding of Joan to yet another of T's former pupils, Gabriel Turville-Petre. I passed this info. on to Wayne and Christina, and it appears in their book The JRR Tolkien Companion and Guide - and the dealer I bought the MEV from used that info. in their catalogue. What goes around comes around.
(This post was edited by geordie on Feb 16 2013, 12:01pm)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 16 2013, 5:45pm
Post #15 of 47
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You certainly have a lot of interesting anecdotes. Thanks for sharing.
With only two thousand printings it seems unlikely that it would be a first edition. He indicated that the number of dots around the border were significant, and that the book was from the library of an old (late) professor at Queens (read old money ivy league type). I mentioned you to the fellow and the first thing he said was "it's not for sale" -- which I thought a little rude since I said nothing about buying or selling. Anyway he said he's keeping it for his retirement so he at least is convinced of its value.
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Feb 16 2013, 6:26pm
Post #16 of 47
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Well, as I say I already have a couple of early editions, plus one or two later printings incorporated into Sisam's book. I don't know why I have so many; it's just that they turn up frequently at book-fairs for not a lot of money. I wish your friend luck with his retirement.
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Feb 16 2013, 6:34pm
Post #17 of 47
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Vinaver didn't think much of Tolkien
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- or at least so I guess. He once wrote that Oxford University never made a bigger mistake than when they by-passed Kenneth Sisam for the professorship of Anglo-Saxon (Sisam was Tolkien's rival for the Chair). On the other hand, Vinaver became a great friend of CS Lewis, so - make of that what you will.
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Aragalen the Green
Gondor
Feb 16 2013, 6:35pm
Post #18 of 47
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I have a lot of question marks, having studied Middle English only slightly .
1. holsumly: wholesomely. Goodness?
2. forşer: further?
3. reuerence: reverence. Being reverent and respectful.
4. laȝter: laughter.
5. sweuenes: swains? Keeping in mind Valentine's 
6. ȝiftis: gifts?
7. forȝeue: forgive. To err is human; to forgive, Divine.
8. şryue: thrive? To grow in health and happiness.
9. ouermoche: overmuch?
10. teuelyn: toiling?
Fun! Thank you :) And sorry about the weird symbols in place of the proper characters, my computer doesn't appear to speak Middle English :(
'"Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb.'
(This post was edited by Aragalen the Green on Feb 16 2013, 6:36pm)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 16 2013, 9:15pm
Post #19 of 47
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don't think they need to have studied ME in order to play.
Everyone's doing great so far... I thought this list to be quite a bit more challenging than the last one.
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Aragalen the Green
Gondor
Feb 16 2013, 11:10pm
Post #20 of 47
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I haven't really studied ME, just poked around a little! Not enough to figure these out, just tried sounding them out and guessing :) Thanks for a fun thread and challenge!
'"Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb.'
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 17 2013, 2:37am
Post #21 of 47
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I don't see "chocolate" on this list...
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Come to think of it, they would not have known about chocolate in the Middle Ages - how sad!
1. holsumly : wholesome, good
2. forşer : could this be "further"?
3. reuerence : reverance
4. la[gh]ter : laughter
5. sweuenes : I'll guess it's "sweetness"
6. [gh]iftis : gifts, presents
7. for[gh]eue : forgive
8. şryue : thrive
9. ouermoche : overmuch, in excess
10. teuelyng : another guess here, "toiling", labouring
Thank you for the challenge, SirD!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Feb 17 2013, 3:19am
Post #22 of 47
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Though I do think my knowledge of German was helpful.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 17 2013, 7:33pm
Post #23 of 47
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Now I'm wondering about Roger Lancelyn Green
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Roger Lancelyn Green, author of King Arthur and His Knights of the Round Table -- a favourite version of mine, for what it's worth -- was a member of the Inklings (or so I'm told). How did he get along with Tolkien? Might his book have had anything to do with Tolkien's decision to abandon his own soon to be published Arthur tale?
Now that I think of it, Viniver's claim to fame was his work with the Winchester and the Caxton Morte d'Arthur manuscripts....intriguing.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Feb 17 2013, 8:19pm
Post #24 of 47
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Not an Inkling, so far as I know
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Green was a close collaborator of Lewis', but he was never a member of the Inklings, to the best of my knowledge. At least not according to Diana Glyer's The Company They Keep, and David Bratman's very complete appendix to that work, "The Inklings, Their Lives and Works."
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Feb 17 2013, 10:10pm
Post #25 of 47
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Roger got on well with Tolkien, and Lewis
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- he wrote affectionate remembrances of both men; of Tolkien in the Tolkien Society's Amon Hen (no.44) and of Lewis in a children's book - The Puffin Annual no. 1.
And yes, Vinaver made his name with his work on the Winchester manuscript of Malory's Morte d'Arthur. This manuscript was so called because it was found at a boarding-school, Winchester College, in 1934. (It was not Vinaver who made the discovery, BTW, but a junior master at Winchester called Walter Oakeshott). Lewis was very taken with this discovery; he went to a talk on the subject given by Vinaver to the Oxford Arthurian Society. (Tolkien attended this talk too, IIRC). Lewis and Vinaver corresponded with each other over the years, and were mutually complimentary to each other in various papers on the subject. And Tolkien's friend and former collaborator E.V. Gordon co-authored a piece with Vinaver on the manuscript in a journal called Medium Aevum. (Tolkien was on this journal's editorial board). As for the manuscript itself - as far as I know, Tolkien seems to have taken little professional interest in the matter.
(This post was edited by geordie on Feb 17 2013, 10:17pm)
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squire
Half-elven
Feb 18 2013, 3:17am
Post #27 of 47
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Colin Duriez, in his article on Green in J. R. R. Tolkien Encyclopedia, says Green attended "a number of Inklings gatherings in the Eagle and Child [pub]". In his article on the Inklings in the same reference work, Duriez cites Green as one of those "documented as attending, permanently, frequently, or occasionally" the Inklings' get-togethers. Duriez draws a distinction between those who read to the group, and those who listened; as seen above, he points out that the Inklings were not a club with a membership list, but rather an informal and continuously shifting meeting of friends and friends of friends; and he calls "Lewis, Tolkien, Williams, and Barfield" the "central figures, so much so that the other members, even though important, are defined in relation to one or more of the four as part of the literary movement [that the Inklings represented]".
What I get from this is that Green was relatively rarely in attendance at the Inklings' actual meetings, even though he was very much a part of the literary set that revolved around C. S. Lewis and the other three "central" figures identified by Duriez.
Does that make him an "Inkling"? It seems to depend where you draw the line. Glyer and Bratman evidently draw the line more closely around the inner circle than Duriez and the Tolkien Gateway folks do. Yet I have to believe Duriez when he asserts that yes, Green did attend at least some of the Inklings' meetings.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
(This post was edited by squire on Feb 18 2013, 3:19am)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Feb 18 2013, 5:02pm
Post #28 of 47
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I have no doubt that attended some meetings,
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nor that he was close to Lewis, and to a lesser extent, Tolkien. I also agree that there is no hard and fast definition of who was a member of the Inklings. But I think the fact that he "was relatively rarely in attendance" at the Inklings meetings would be tend to mitigate against calling him an actual member of the group. Green, of course, was of a younger generation than Lewis and Tolkien, having been a student of the former. The only individuals from that generation that Bratman lists among the actual members of the group are Lewis' other student John Wain, and of course Christopher Tolkien. I believe (though I have not read it), that Bratman bases his list of "canonical members" on Humphrey Carpenter's study of the group, The Inklings. Of course, Duriez was also very knowledgable and well-respected as well.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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squire
Half-elven
Feb 18 2013, 5:37pm
Post #29 of 47
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Good point about the generation gap
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I hadn't caught that. Green was definitely of the next generation at Oxford, which came of age after the War. The Inklings' identity as a group seems to be based on the earlier years of the mens' meetings, from the mid 1930s to the mid 40s. (We should note that Green was a student of both Tolkien and Lewis, not just Lewis; Tolkien supervised his B. Litt. thesis on Andrew Lang and fairy tales.)
Of the two young men you note, it's funny to compare John Wain's and Roger Green's status as Inklings in the later 1940s. Bratman, it turns out, wrote the JRRT Encyclopedia article on Wain, and credits him therein as a member of the Inklings, based on Wain's own claim to have been in attendance at the Eagle and Child for several years. Duriez, by contrast, does not give any specifics of how long or how often young Green took a seat with the oldsters. What I thought ironic is that Bratman clearly explains that Wain, although personally attracted to Lewis and Tolkien as companions and mentors, disagreed rather severely with their interest in fantasy and fairy stories. He was a realist in his tastes in fiction, hated The Lord of the Rings, and thought Tolkien's ideas about subcreation were bosh. Meanwhile Green, who Bratman feels never quite made it as an actual Inkling, was Lewis' biggest promoter in the matter of the Narnia series, declaring it to be on the whole a worthy successor to English children's classics like Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland, and Wind in the Willows. Green also liked Tolkien's work, taking it on its own terms. Duriez even suggests (without any proof) that Green is a candidate for "Jeremy" in Tolkien's roman-a-clef about the Inklings, the Notion-Club Papers.
So, (not counting Christopher Tolkien, obviously) of the two most likely students of Tolkien and Lewis who gravitated to their professors' literary/social set, we have the young Inkling who didn't like the older Inklings' stuff; and the young non-Inkling who did!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
(This post was edited by squire on Feb 18 2013, 5:38pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Feb 18 2013, 6:04pm
Post #30 of 47
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I didn't know (or perhaps had forgotten)
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that Tolkien supervised Greens B. Litt thesis on Andrew Lang and fairy tales. I did recall that Green, like Tolkien, delivered the Andrew Lang Lecture at St. Andrew's University, though Green's was 29 years after Tolkien famous lecture "On Fairy-Stories".
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 18 2013, 7:41pm
Post #31 of 47
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Just to give anyone who may still want to play a chance to do so, I'll be posting answers around midnight EST.
In the meantime feel free to jump in on the fascinating side discussion that has developed, or with anything else related to the historical Tolkien.
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telain
Rohan
Feb 18 2013, 8:27pm
Post #32 of 47
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here it goes! (and thank you Sir Dennis!)
1. wholesomely
2. farther
3. reverence
4. laughter
5. swoons
6. gifts
7. forego (or forgive?)
8. thrive
9. overmuch
10. telling
Not the most consistent answers, but fun nonetheless!
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 19 2013, 8:44am
Post #33 of 47
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Answers and further discussion
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Imma do this a little differently this time... for each word I'll give Tolkien's gloss, at least to the extent that it relates to the list word, and the glossary it appears in: (SG) for Sir Gawain; and (ME) for A Middle English Vocabulary.
Someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but being glossaries, the listings are more about how the words are used in the texts than they are about defining the words. I mention this at all for the sake of accuracy. However, for our challenge, since we don't know the context of the words outside of the list, a full point is awarded for grasping a word's essence (as usual).
According to Tolkien, according to original context:
1. holsumly, adv. healthfully [OE. hal + -sum; cf. ON heilsamr.] (SG)
2. forşer, adv. [OE. furşor, forşor.] See [also] Fyrşer (ME)
3. reuerence, n. honour [OFr. reverence.] (SG) and n. reverence [OFr. reverence.] (ME)
4. laȝter, n. laugh [OE. hlæhtor.] (SG)*
5. sweuenes, n. pl. dreaming [OE. swefn, often pl. with sg. sense.] (SG) and n. dream [OE. swefn.] (ME)
6. ȝiftis, n. pl. gifts [OE. gift.] see [also] Gyfte. (ME)
7. forȝeue, v. to forgive [OE. for-gefan.] (ME)
8. şryue, v. to thrive [ON. şrifask.] (SG)**
9. ouermoche, adj. and n. too much [OE. ofer-mycel.] (ME)
10. teuelyng, n. labour, deeds [Prob. from ON. tefla, play (at tables)...] (SG)***
* This seems odd except when you see the word in context: "And şus he bourded aȝayn with mony a blyşe laȝter." (SG 1217). The verb, to laugh, Tolkien glosses as laȝe [OE. hlæhhan.]
** For the sake of comparison: şryue, thrife, and thryfe are given for v. to prosper [ON şrifask.] in (ME)
*** Teuelyng reminds me of the French word travailler: to work, to strive [OFr. travailler, to work, to trouble, torture]. It is also related to the English word travail: strive, strain etc. However, if the "u" is not pronounced like modern "v" then it looks like it would sound very much like toiling, which I didn't notice until you guys started giving it for an answer.
Speaking of which, here are the scores out of 10:
Arithmancer 8
CuriousG 5 (+1)
AuntieDB 8
Morthoron 9 (and our only player to get "dreams" for #5)
BoromirofWinterfell 6
Aragalen The Green 9
dernwyn 9
Telain 8
With an average of almost 7.9/10 I think it's safe to say we are getting better at this. Thank you to our players this time round, and to all contributors to the thread!
Further thoughts, observations, theories are more than welcome.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 19 2013, 6:22pm
Post #34 of 47
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Number 2 should read:
2. forşer, adv. further [OE. furşor, forşor.] See [also] Fyrşer (ME)
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Feb 19 2013, 6:50pm
Post #35 of 47
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If we play this again I need to think of more than just English and German clues. With 20-20 hindsight, I can now see that sweuenes is really quite similar to the word "svajone" (j is pronounced like a consonant y in English...) in my native Lithuanian. That word means dream or daydream.
Thanks for making this thread, it has been fun!
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Aragalen the Green
Gondor
Feb 20 2013, 12:09am
Post #36 of 47
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of "swoon"--to faint, pass out, or lose consciousness.
'"Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb.'
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 20 2013, 2:49am
Post #37 of 47
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Somewhere in the back of my mind
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there was a notion that sweuenes might be related to Fr. suivre, to follow... but that makes no sense whatsoever.
I am reminded that not all ME words survive as modern day, phonetically similar words. Some words just die over time.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Feb 20 2013, 2:50am)
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Morthoron
Gondor
Feb 20 2013, 3:18am
Post #38 of 47
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1. holsumly, adv. healthfully [OE. hal + -sum; cf. ON heilsamr.] (SG)
I found an alternative definition to "holsumly" as "comfortably". There is a line (1730-31) from GatGG where "healthfully" would be a misapplication: "Whyle the hende knyght at home holsumly slepes Withinne the comly cortynes, on the colde morne." The word comfortably" is a better definer here.
http://books.google.com/...holsumly&f=false
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Feb 20 2013, 3:21am)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 21 2013, 6:02am
Post #40 of 47
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Just when I was about to adjust Morthoron's score
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Lady FarFromHome makes a rare appearance, and a salient point. 
However, I am thankful for the link to Richard Morris' 1869 edit of SGatGK (including glossary). Morris' work is mentioned in Tolkien and Gordon's introduction to their version. As well, it is listed in the bibliography with the note, "Corrects some of Madden's text. There are a few notes and a glossary (incomplete, of little value)."
(I'm guessing Morris wasn't around to defend himself at the time Tolkien and Gordon's edition was made.  )
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Feb 21 2013, 11:17am
Post #41 of 47
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I enjoy reading your vocabulary threads, SirD
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And I always learn something from everyone's answers, but I don't usually take on the challenge because I don't seem to have a feel for the sounds of Old English (Old French is more my thing - or was, I think I've forgotten most of it...).
But when Morthoron kindly provided a context with that quote from Sir Gawain, my translator's instincts kicked in and I saw what the poet might have been getting at. What I really liked was discovering how the word for "healthy" also means "whole" or "sound" in Old English. It reminds me of Verlyn Flieger's point that (in Tolkien's view) language "splinters" over time, so while we gain in detail we may lose sight of the bigger picture. The evolution of this one word must be just a random example of thousands that Tolkien was familiar with. But it gave me a new little insight into the language of Tolkien's world, thanks to you and Morthoron!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 22 2013, 2:43am
Post #42 of 47
(876 views)
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It's so nice to see you here.
I can understand using "comfortably" in that line, strictly based on context. As well, given the second half of the phrase it would create resonance, an effect we've seen elsewhere in the text (see here and related discussion). However, given Tolkien's gloss and a little further research "comfort" does appear to miss the author's mark. Still, translators are accorded license, often to our (the reader's) benefit I think.
As you say, the root word "hol" seems interchangeable with "health" and "whole" -- certainly Tolkien thought so, and Morris before him. Here is what the Online Etymology Dictionary has to say about the Modern English word whole:
"Old English hal "entire, unhurt, healthy," from Proto-Germanic *khailaz "undamaged" (cf. Old Saxon hel, Old Norse heill, Old Frisian hal, Middle Dutch hiel, Dutch heel, Old High German, German heil "salvation, welfare"), from PIE *koilas (cf. Old Church Slavonic celu "whole, complete;" see health). The spelling with wh- developed early 15c. The sense in whole number is from early 14c."
Here is the listing for health, which I rather like:
'Old English hælş "wholeness, a being whole, sound or well," from Proto-Germanic *hailitho, from PIE *kailo- "whole, uninjured, of good omen" (cf. Old English hal "hale, whole;" Old Norse heill "healthy;" Old English halig, Old Norse helge "holy, sacred;" Old English hælan "to heal"). Of physical health in Middle English, but also "prosperity, happiness, welfare; preservation, safety."'
Edit: Links fixed
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Feb 22 2013, 2:49am)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 22 2013, 5:44am
Post #44 of 47
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I really appreciate all the Tolkien related information and other threads our little game has generated.
As not to post here ouermoche (it may be long past that point already) I wanted to touch on the philosophical point Lady FarFromHome brought in via Verlyn Flieger:
It reminds me of Verlyn Flieger's point that (in Tolkien's view) language "splinters" over time, so while we gain in detail we may lose sight of the bigger picture.
In turn, this reminds me of something an old professor once said about a trend he observed in higher education... something to the effect: "the trend towards specialization has us awarding degrees for knowing the most about the least." I wonder if he was paraphrasing Tolkien and didn't know it? And isn't it interesting, as Tolkien knew, that language is the foundation of knowing... perhaps of consciousness itself?
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 22 2013, 5:57am
Post #45 of 47
(870 views)
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Over at the Online Etymology Dictionary Lithuanian is mentioned in their listing for dream.
Also I wanted to thank you for bringing to bare your knowledge of German and other languages for our game.
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Feb 22 2013, 11:26am
Post #46 of 47
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Sapnas, yes, that is dream in the sense of that thing we do when we sleep. Svajone, which I mentioned, is "dream" in the sense of "I have a dream" or "daydream".
I also find references to Lithuanian there when I look things up, it's a thing I enjoy about knowing the language, which is otherwise not very "practical". (I was born and still live in the US, so I speak it only with friends and family). It's a "conservative" language, meaning it is believed to have changed less over the years than a lot of modern Indo-European languages. It also has a grammar that is quite complicated compared to most.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 24 2013, 2:10am
Post #47 of 47
(910 views)
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Working in the word "sleep": "sweuenes"..."sleeping-ness"...dreaming...
Note how that Dictionary has the Old English "dream" differ in meaning from our current "dream": over the centuries it took on a different meaning, or it could be that words such as "traum" worked their way into the language and their meanings gradually superseded the original.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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