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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Protesting in advance to the notion of Galadriel carrying Gandalf like a babe in arms, as though she were an angel of mercy.
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Arannir
Valinor

Jan 11 2013, 5:38pm

Post #51 of 77 (413 views)
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:D [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Okay, good. Then I agree ;)


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 11 2013, 5:47pm

Post #52 of 77 (412 views)
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That's the only thing [In reply to] Can't Post

Kassandros: One could speculate that the filmmakers may be considering moving this idea from LotR to The Hobbit. They like to do that sort of thing. On the other hand, maybe not. We don't know anything about this scene.

That's sort of the only plausible thing I thought of when this whole rumor started.

However, I agree, we know nothing about this scene. They could very well have had a lifelike dummy of Gandalf there for another purpose, and Cate just picked it up to see how much it weighed. They used a very realistic replica of Boromir in the boat.

Of course, the spiky wheel photo caused a lot of speculation and it turned up in the EE.



ashonmytomatoes
Bree


Jan 11 2013, 5:56pm

Post #53 of 77 (393 views)
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Well said! [In reply to] Can't Post

I love Tolkien but the lack of any female character. At all. is a problem in The Hobbit. I don't have a problem with Tauriel (thus far) and, like you, don't see why Galadriel would't be capable of carrying Gandalf (between being a strong, over 6' Noldor and him having the body of a 5'6'' elderly man and her magical powers).

It all depends on how they do it. To give some examples from FOTR, I didn't have a problem with Arwen taking Glorfindel's place re the Ringwraiths and I don't think I would've have a problem with her taking the place of her (not in the movie) brothers at Helm's Deep. Depending.

I love the movies but they are not perfect, either. Frodo should have been able to be on the horse himself and challenge the Wraiths as he did in the book. Also, I did cringe when Arwen got all weepy over Frodo and the whole "Arwen is dying" bit in ROTK was silly. However, at least you didn't wonder who Arwen was when she showed up at the coronation.

So, it all depends on how it is done. There are enough things done beautifully in these movies that I have faith. As has been said, it is just a rumor and it may not be in the movie at all.


Nerven
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 8:56pm

Post #54 of 77 (371 views)
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Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
in Tolkien's universe. Even Gandalf may need to be saved at times...


We witnessed that. It's in FoTR and TTT. Why weaken the character even more and superfluously I might add.

And why decide that Galadriel must be the most powerful being in ME and seemingl infallible?

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Im really looking forward to see that scene. I dont get all this stir only because Galadriel might carry him. Why would it weaken his character? I think it would rather show that he has mighty allies he can rely on and that they help each other if they are needing their help. He is not yet Gandalf the white and still restricted in his power and of course he can be injured and Philippa is not that wrong in her statement reagrding Galadriel IMHO. Tolkien said that Galadriel is the mightiest of the Eldar in the third age,the Istari are restricted in their power, Sauron is weak at this point and regarding the Balrog, very well, if another elves, seemingly less in power than Galadriel, like Glorfindel and Ecthelion are able to that deed, one could assume that Galadriel, who is said to be the "equal of Feanor" and strong of mind, body and will, a match for the loremaster ans athletics in Valinor, is able to do the same. Her brother (Finrod) almost won a duel of Song against Sauron and if we can believe Tolkien, Galadriel was greater than her older brother. I dont think it is too far-fetched to say Galadriel was the most powerful at this time.


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 11 2013, 9:46pm

Post #55 of 77 (348 views)
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Yes, well said, and I completely agree it's logical and plausible that she's powerful [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien even inferred that Gandalf the Grey was put in Middle Earth with his current body and form because he'd be more likely to understand the mortals he was protecting. Galadriel, however, has been literally at the tables of the Valar before she left the Blessed Realm, and she has a ring of power too. So, it's even plausible she might help him.

However, a movie audience made up of 90% non-Tolkienites isn't going to be sitting there and sifting that information. That's why the notion is meeting with disdain. It's also the picture in their heads that people can't accept. How often do women carry men? LOL


sharku
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 9:59pm

Post #56 of 77 (347 views)
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Eru / Iluvatar [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
No one is infallible in Tolkien's universe. Even Gandalf may need to be saved at times...


Eru is[infallible]. Even the discord that is Melkor is ultimately of his design.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 10:03pm

Post #57 of 77 (334 views)
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It isn't the being carried alone that is the problem, as I have said in earlier postage. [In reply to] Can't Post

It is more the circumstances. If it is very carefully portrayed, that is one thing. HOWEVER, if the circumstances imply or explicitly portray Galadriel as being so mighty that she can come into a situation where Gandalf is completely overwhelmed, and be unscathed by comparison and carry the "helpless" Wizard to safety. . . hell no. Tis too much. It isn't a matter of emasculation. I could care less about that. It is a matter of Galadriel becoming defined as, not merely ambiguously/possibly more powerful in some aspects than the Wizards, but of her potentially becoming defined as enormously more powerful than they, capable of winning battles (possibly with relative ease) that Gandalf cannot, and of defeating foes who are beyond them and coming away from it unmussed. They are on the edge of solidifying, in the minds of the lay audience, Galadriel as distinctly and definitively superior, in all aspects of both power, authority and status, to Ainur who were sent into Middle-Earth specifically for the guidance of ALL its people.

In Reply To
She did some serious physical stuff. And I don't see it's emasculating Gandalf to have him being carried by a woman. Maybe it it were John McClane or Rambo, but Gandalf isn't a particularly masculine character to begin with.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 10:08pm

Post #58 of 77 (342 views)
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A wait and see approach would have left you with Arwen at Helm's Deep. . . [In reply to] Can't Post

though that might not have been as drastic a change as some others have been. lol

In Reply To
Like all the other 'Oh no, are they going to....' panics we've had around here, the actual scene in the film will probably turn out just fine. Even in the books, Galadriel is Gandalf's support network. Remember in The Two Towers, she is the one who sends Gwaihir to look for Gandalf after his fall in Moria and bring him to Lorien - and it's with her that "Healing I found, and I was clothed in white. Counsel I gave and counsel took...' So it doesn't seem so far-fetched to me that she should help him at Dol Guldur. Depends how they do it, of course, but we have almost a year to wait to find that out.

You may be protesting against something they have no intention of doing.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 10:22pm

Post #59 of 77 (314 views)
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How wrong you are. We have seen him defeated by Saruman, and placed in dire straits [In reply to] Can't Post

and even felled by The Balrog, though he was Returned. This is about the creation of a scenario in which he is not merely vulnerable, but clearly subordinate to one of the High Elves of Middle-Earth.

And what is the point of waiting to comment? I am commenting on what has been reported in the HOPES that the suggested scenario is not a worst case scenario. Worry is for things not yet come to pass. I am WORRYING. Disgust is for displeasing things that are already set in stone and have already come into being. Those things are beyond worry. Worry is the appropriate response for something that you don't want to see happen, but are concerned may come to be.


In Reply To
Still going on about this? Seriously. You seem to have cooked up in your mind the most bizzare scenarios with no basis on reality. And somehow imagined that Gandalf is an unbeatable, infallible badass while at it. Wait until you actually see the scene instead of inventing it, before you start with the complaints.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 10:29pm

Post #60 of 77 (314 views)
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I really wish that the straw man of whether or not she would be capable of carrying him would stop being raised. [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not doubt that she could lift and carry Azog if she wanted to. It is not her physical strength at issue, nor the fact that she is female. I would be as troubled by the notion of Elrond carrying Gandalf IF there had been recurring implication that Elrond was somehow the superior of The Istari.

It is all about the portrayl and circumstances. I do not have any problem with the notion of Galadriel being able to lift Gandalf. I do not have a problem with Gandalf not being portrayed as unassailable, for he is not, regardless to Lightice's flippant misread of my comments. What I have a massive problem with is the possibilty of Galadriel being portrayed as exponentially greater in power and prowess than The Istari. As I said, if they are both seriously injured in this battle, and Gandalf just happens to come down on the wrong side of the misfortunes of battle, okay. . . but if she is seen as pristine as ever, with nary a hair out of place and no sign of having taken harm, save a few smudges of dirt and a tired look about the eyes, and then she lifts, angel of mercy style, a beaten down Gandalf out of the wreckage. . . too much.

In Reply To
One little paragraph tells us absolutely nothing. We don't know anything about the context and we don't know if this will even happen in the movie. A lot of things get filmed that end up playing no part at all in the movie.

Even if this does happen though, I find the idea nothing but intriguing. Whether it'll work depends on how it's carried out of course but the concept certainly has potential in my opinion. Galadriel was called Nerwen for a reason. If Gandalf finds himself in a situation where he needs to be carried (because powerful as he may be, he's not invincible), there is no reason why Galadriel wouldn't have the strength to carry him as much as anyone else, and the fact that she is a woman shouldn't make it a problem when she's been described as being "strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth".


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 10:38pm

Post #61 of 77 (304 views)
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Does not compute. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
and even felled by The Balrog, though he was Returned. This is about the creation of a scenario in which he is not merely vulnerable, but clearly subordinate to one of the High Elves of Middle-Earth.



How is being saved by an elf make Gandalf "subordinate" to them? Why do you think that the world of Middle-Earth works on Dungeons & Dragons power levels? Comprehend this: even the grand-master of Krav Maga can end up killed by an untrained thug with a broken bottle under the wrong circumstances. Even a scared civilian can smash the skull of a Navy Seal if they are distracted. It's ridiculous to set up a line and state: "No elf can perform above this, no Maia can perform under this".

Gandalf is fallible and vulnerable, and needs friends and supporters to succeed in his great work. Without them he is doomed. It does not matter if he is more powerful and dangerous than any of them could ever hope to be -- though I would argue that as Gandalf the Gray he is quite limited compared to many of his White Council compatriots -- he can still fail and fall, and needs others to catch and help him if he does.

You are offended by the very possibility that Gandalf might need help from someone who is not on what you consider to be his power level. I say that this is an absurd thing to get peeved about and demonstrates total misunderstanding of Gandalf's character, and even the basic values on which Tolkien wrote the LotR-trilogy. The great and mighty can't do all their fights alone. They need the "lesser" folk and would not be able to last without them.


In Reply To
Worry is the appropriate response for something that you don't want to see happen, but are concerned may come to be.


That is not what your posts sound like. As far as I am able to see you have already decided what this scene will be like, based on nothing more than a few lines from an interview, and are actively trying to start a picket line to stop it like only you could stop it and it was the most important thing in the world. Your worries and fears are based on nothing concrete and would be downright comical in their exaggerated magnitude if you didn't take them so damn seriously.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 11:10pm

Post #62 of 77 (308 views)
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No, I don't believe it would. [In reply to] Can't Post

That was a storyline they intended, worked on and finally decided against because they found something better. Yes, they were aware of online protests but I don't believe those made a scrap of difference. I don't believe that anything I said then or say now could make any difference to the way Peter Jackson makes his films, not do I think it should. If he and his team don't have the confidence to make their own decisions and stick by them then they shouldn't be doing the job at all. Can you imagine the sort of mess they'd be in if they had to keep running to the internet to find out how to approach this or that scene, or design, or storyline? After all, it's not as if everyone agrees, is it?!

But you haven't answered the real point in my previous post. Tolkien himself had Galadriel sending Gwaihir to look for Gandalf after his fight with the Balrog, and she took him in, healed and reclothed him. Gandalf isn't superman (or SuperMaia), he is vulnerable when faced with an opponent of his own rank. And if Tolkien had Galadriel help him after Moria, why should she not help him after Dol Guldur?


Plurmo
Rohan

Jan 11 2013, 11:11pm

Post #63 of 77 (307 views)
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They turned Aragorn into an exile [In reply to] Can't Post

who had never wanted to be king. That's like saying that the whole continuity for thousands of years of the Line of Valandil was without purpose. That the ancestral duty of keeping the numenorean kingdom on Middle-earth had become irrelevant, a matter of free choice of an unwilling individual instead of the final act of a will of kings that stood alight despite all the efforts of the enemy to quench it. It was such an imbecility from the scriptwriters that one doubts if they have any understanding of what they are reading in the books.

As for Galadriel, I think you are very right in your estimation of her power. It is relevant that Gandalf the White was only awakened after she refused the Ring. Had she claimed it for herself there would be no Sauron, no Istari, no High elf, no hobbit, no one that could defeat her.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 11:30pm

Post #64 of 77 (295 views)
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But let them all be bruised, certainly only him, nor all but her. [In reply to] Can't Post

And, Lightice knows well enough what others and myself have meant by float. See her passage through Lothlorien when she summons Frodo to look into the Mirror. Yes her feet touch the ground, but she almost glides. And it is WONDERFUL! And it fits her well there and bespeaks her great power. . . it would NOT fit in Dol Guldur in a struggle against Sauron, when all about even Istari are being desprately assailed.

And he/she needen't be condescending. Let us not act as if Sir Peter, Ms. Boyens et al have never made any choices that might cause anyone to ever question a path they might be taking based on statements made. Unsure

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My prediction, the most likely to come true, that this is all much ado about nothing. Gandalf gets injured to demonstrate the power of his enemy and gets carried to safety by Galadriel. What the context is, we only have speculations, though I very much doubt that it's the main assault on Dol Guldur.


If Radagast doesn't die, then it makes sense for Gandalf to be (seriously) injured. If the White Council all walked out of Dol Guldur without a bruise ... then the battle is not threatening at all - it's not exciting or dramatic.

I wonder if this is how Gandalf will break his arm in the film. Maybe he turns up to the BO5A having already broken his arm?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Jan 11 2013, 11:33pm)


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jan 11 2013, 11:40pm

Post #65 of 77 (305 views)
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what strikes me most about this [In reply to] Can't Post

possible scene, is how totally utterly out of Galadriels (film) character it is.
Up to now she has been shown in the Hobbit film and to a lesser extent in LOTR, as almost entirely static, slow moving and slow in all her mannerisms. She even speaks slowly. In TH she mostly stands about like a statue. So to suddenly see her give Gandalf a heft over her shoulder like a hulking great Amazon, will look very shocking. and weird. its not very ladylike.


TheSexyBeard
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 11:44pm

Post #66 of 77 (276 views)
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My ideas based on magazine snippets [In reply to] Can't Post

How about...

Gandalf goes to Dol Guldor by ahead of the White Council. He proves the presence of Sauron, but is attacked by these unknown creatures. He does quite well (and probably does something awesome) but is outnumbered and eventually incapacitated. When all seems lost the rest of the council arrive and a contingent of elves.. Radaghast fends of the creatures (maybe there bestial and he can drive them off easily because of this) and Galdriel carries Gandalf off safely,

Yes, my username is terrible.


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 11:50pm

Post #67 of 77 (268 views)
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That would be "he". [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And, Lightice knows well enough what others and myself have meant by float.



As a matter of fact, I do not. I am working under the dictionary definition unless I have a good reason to assume otherwise. And I certainly never associated the verb with Galadriel's movements in the FotR. She is graceful and etheral but her feet move and touch the ground, no special effects are involved.


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. it would NOT fit in Dol Guldur in a struggle against Sauron, when all about even Istari are being desprately assailed.



This contains so many unfounded assumptions. Lets count them up:

1) Gandalf's injury will take place during the White Council's assault on Dol Guldur. Possible, but far from confirmed. Personally I would predict that Gandalf will get injured while attempting to investigate Dol Guldur on his own and barely escapes with his life. It would give a sense of drama to Gandalf's story in the second film and give his claims more weight in the second meeting of the Council. But that's just me speculating.

2) Galadriel will be directly and personally involved with the fighting. Cate Blanchett has given the impression that she hasn't shot action scenes at least for now. It's perfectly possible that her role will be purely supportive in the assault. But again, a matter for speculation.

3) Galadriel will be unaffected by whatever took down Gandalf. Biggest assumption so far, and hinges both on the presumption that she will engage with the same threat that will defeat Gandalf and that she will be the one to defeat it.

There are other assumptions at play as well, but these are the chief ones. Not one of them has been confirmed or even suggested by the information that we have available. Being offended by something this intangible simply is not worth the time and effort. You're just waiting the opportunity to stick foot in your mouth by doing so.


Ardamr
Valinor


Jan 11 2013, 11:56pm

Post #68 of 77 (282 views)
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Arwen at Helm's Deep [In reply to] Can't Post

While it would obviously have been a great departure, and I truly love what they did with Arwen instead (minus the brief lines about her dying), I'm very curious to know how it would have turned out. I don't think it would have actually been as bad as many have suggested. I'd love to some day see all of Arwen's deleted scenes, especially the Helm's Deep stuff.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 12 2013, 1:56am

Post #69 of 77 (250 views)
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Exactly. [In reply to] Can't Post

We already know Gandalf can sometimes come up falling short (Saruman was used to display that quite effectively and then some), and can be very thoroughly challanged, almost to the point of breaking. See The Balrog if Saruman was not enough. Certainly the Necromancer is also up to the challenge, by this stage in time. But all things are relative. And that is part of the issue here. The other part is that it is in Rings that we should Gandalf really put to the test, so that we appreciate the greater threat facing him and The World, though surely there must be some dangerous patches for him in Dol Guldur.

Yet, again, relativity is the concern. It isn't a matter of Gandalf being up to every challange all on his lonesome. . .. it is a matter of NOT portraying a scenario where Galadriel or Elrond are clearly entirely up to challenges that are clearly seen to be beyond Gandalf. As I said, a viewer should not come way with a notion of "if only Galadriel had been there in Moria. . . SHE'D have showed that Balrog. . ." We don't know that, nor should we be surmising that, or any other aspect of her comparative power vs. Gandalf and Saruman. Tolkien is often wisely ambiguous. "Against some I have not yet been tested. . ." My concern is Galadriel, rightfully mighty, coming across more like Melian the Maia (or, Heaven forbid, Varda the Vala) than like Galadriel the Noldo. . . and of Gandalf, by comparison, coming across as being little more than "merely some human sorcerer, dabbling. . ." as Saruman might put it.

And your last comment is the perfect analysis of the concern. Not that Gandalf will be portrayed as other than infallible and invulnerable. . . but that, especially by comparison, Galadriel will be portrayed too much as being both of those things.

In Reply To

In Reply To
in Tolkien's universe. Even Gandalf may need to be saved at times...


We witnessed that. It's in FoTR and TTT. Why weaken the character even more and superfluously I might add.

And why decide that Galadriel must be the most powerful being in ME and seemingl infallible?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Jan 12 2013, 1:58am)


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jan 12 2013, 2:13am

Post #70 of 77 (250 views)
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It was fighting talk. [In reply to] Can't Post

I was only talking about the fact that they didn't make him ten times better than everyone else at fighting.

The other stuff - the insertion of a 'character arc' where none is needed - don't get me started on that... I feel one of my turns coming on.....

And yes, if Ms Blanchett, who is almost certainly the result of magical forces herself - had accepted the ring, I think the point wasn't that she would be too strong for her enemies, but more that no-one (at least on the 'good side') would want to defeat her - they would become willing slaves, but slaves nonetheless. She recognised the loss of free will to emotion - the worst side of nationalism or religion or ideology - and rejected it. A leader's permission to lead should be provided by their competence, not the love they inspire, and she has the wisdom to reject the god like status that the latter case - possession of the ring - would give her. It's really interesting that Tolkien took this stance, as it challenges the notion of the Old Testament god - who ruled entirely by inspiring fear (as in Sauron) and devotion (as in Galadriel with the ring). He's hinting at a very different type of faith - in a god that is in the background and who inspires, but leaves people to find their own morality - according to their common sense - and to govern themselves. That would be consistent with Tolkien's view of the Bible as a 'true myth', rather than a literal set of rules - something that inspires and informs our own inbuilt notions of decency and common sense - which brings us back to the hobbits, who are the embodiment of this.

Thinking about it, it makes sense that at the end of LOTR, the Shire has been Galadrielised (via Sam's gift) and now represents the best of both worlds - the everyday and the magical, but remains far away from, and uninvolved in, the centres of earthly and military power, represented by the new King.



In Reply To
who had never wanted to be king. That's like saying that the whole continuity for thousands of years of the Line of Valandil was without purpose. That the ancestral duty of keeping the numenorean kingdom on Middle-earth had become irrelevant, a matter of free choice of an unwilling individual instead of the final act of a will of kings that stood alight despite all the efforts of the enemy to quench it. It was such an imbecility from the scriptwriters that one doubts if they have any understanding of what they are reading in the books.

As for Galadriel, I think you are very right in your estimation of her power. It is relevant that Gandalf the White was only awakened after she refused the Ring. Had she claimed it for herself there would be no Sauron, no Istari, no High elf, no hobbit, no one that could defeat her.



Plurmo
Rohan

Jan 12 2013, 5:46am

Post #71 of 77 (230 views)
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That's a veritable lecture on Galadriel's power and the dangers of devotion. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a pity this thread will submerge fast. I wish more people would have a chance to grasp your viewpoint on this matter.

Because of the powers you so well describe I see Galadriel as a true feanorian character whose rise to power in Middle-earth would cause a reversal in the migratory pattern of elves and would inevitably result in a new strife with the Valar.

Being both noldor and teleri she would have no trouble finding words for convincing and ships for carrying. And if Thingol was able to attract a powerful maia who could Queen Galadriel, wearing the four Rings, seduce? Maybe Eonw himself? Maybe several of them like Melkor did? Or perhaps a bigger fish like Ulmo the lonely?

As for the Shire, as new elvish settlements would start to sprout near the Grey Havens, eventually it would be affected. I can envision disputes over that land between elves and the numenorean vassal kingdom in Eriador. In that sense the Mallorn of Galadriel in Hobbiton would end up becoming a monument, the Pillar of the Queen in the North. Perhaps she had foreseen that and found a way to turn what was originally devised as a symbol of power into a symbol of her noble renounce.

PS: I saw what was your point regarding Aragorn, but I jumped in the breach because I wanted to stress the likelihood of the scriptwriters opting for the worst in the matter of Galadriel saving Gandalf. I apologize if it looked like I was attacking your post. I wasn't. I thought your post was very precise and your ideas regarding Galadriel's real power very akin to mine, though you express them with far greater ability. That's why I was motivated to reply to your post in particular.Evil


Arannir
Valinor

Jan 12 2013, 1:41pm

Post #72 of 77 (204 views)
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This. [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not think they changed Arwen's storyline because of the fan reaction (although it was brutal).

As far as I know both Liv Tyler and eventually the writers did not feel like her storyline really worked.

That is when Philippa Boyens said on the commentary, I think, that they decided to totally go with the "passive" heroism of Arwen. To underline what it means for her to stay in Middle-earth.

I thought this was brilliantly done because it was one of those moments you realized that even with Sauron defeated, ME will not just change for the better.


But that is a bit off-topic... however, this gives me, all in all, courage, that they have the skills to portray Galadriel in a believable way - and I can see a rescue scene between her and Gandalf to be very emotionally satisfying for both characters.

I am sure she will be kind of "bad-ass" as I am sure the writers will draw for this episode both from Galadriel helping Gandalf in TTT and Galadriel getting rid of what is left of Sauron's malice in Dol Guldur after the War of the Ring. Maybe Elrond, Gandalf and Galadriel will use their rings...

I agree that it should not look like Galadriel sweeps through the enemy's lines while Gandalf is almost killed. But there is no real reason to believe so as of now.

What strikes me very positively is that they seem to make the Battle for Dol Guldur a hard one for the White Council. No "we slammed Sauron... take that you Dark Lord!" - a hard battle in which key and mighty combatants are seriously injured.

Who is better to go down that path than Gandalf? We have learned over 4 movies how strong he can be, that he is so important that he even comes back from the dead because of his mission. Injuring him shows, who they are up against and why Middle-earth is in that "end-of-.the-world-type" state when we see it in FotR. Plus, it may play nicely with Gandalf's path to Erebor, give that a lot of urgency and - once more - a major sacrifice on the part of Gandalf.

How could he ever me undermined by Galadriel when we witness all the time what he takes upon himself compared to ALL other members of the White Council. I think it is almost impossible to have him downgraded just because Galadriel may be there for him at the right moment during a brutal battle.


frodolives
Lorien

Jan 12 2013, 2:20pm

Post #73 of 77 (199 views)
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Just curious... [In reply to] Can't Post

... where you get the idea that Gandalf is short. He is described as being fairly tall, isn't he?


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 12 2013, 5:02pm

Post #74 of 77 (177 views)
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We shall see... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What strikes me very positively is that they seem to make the Battle for Dol Guldur a hard one for the White Council. No "we slammed Sauron... take that you Dark Lord!" - a hard battle in which key and mighty combatants are seriously injured.
.


I'm fairly sure that the battle for Dol Guldur was something of a curbstomb fight for the White Council because Sauron had actually already planned ahead and pretended to flee, actually setting himself up back in Mordor. I wouldn't be surprised if the White Council will find their fight a little too easy, only to discover that the guy in charge has dissappeared and there's suddenly a horde of orcs threatening the North. But we'll have to waite and see, ofcourse.


Quote
... where you get the idea that Gandalf is short. He is described as being fairly tall, isn't he?



I've been under the impression that he's of fairly average height and often slightly stooped and bent to boot. He's just very tall for the hobbits and wears a tall hat. He was mentioned looking like the most humble and small of the Istari when they first arrived to Middle-Earth. Galadriel on the other hand is huge by any measure, 6ft 4in. (193 cm)! I'm pretty sure that she'd tower over Gandalf, though not his hat.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 12 2013, 5:42pm

Post #75 of 77 (174 views)
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Yet it was important, as it derailed Sauron's initial plan. The retreat and return to Mordor was [In reply to] Can't Post

a contingency plan, which Sauron began to prepare after Gandalf's second venture to Dol Guldur, foreseeing that the Wise would almost certainly attack him at some point. But he did not entirely abandon his other designs until his hand was forced. And his original intent had been to strike Lothlorien and Rivendell as the opening act of his Great War. "I felt then, and I am SURE now, that to attack Lorien and Rivendell as soon as he felt strong enough was his original plan. It would have been a much better plan for him, and much worse for us. . . You may think Rivendell was beyond his reach, but I did not think so. The state of things in The North was very bad. . ."

In Reply To

In Reply To
What strikes me very positively is that they seem to make the Battle for Dol Guldur a hard one for the White Council. No "we slammed Sauron... take that you Dark Lord!" - a hard battle in which key and mighty combatants are seriously injured.
.


I'm fairly sure that the battle for Dol Guldur was something of a curbstomb fight for the White Council because Sauron had actually already planned ahead and pretended to flee, actually setting himself up back in Mordor. I wouldn't be surprised if the White Council will find their fight a little too easy, only to discover that the guy in charge has dissappeared and there's suddenly a horde of orcs threatening the North. But we'll have to waite and see, ofcourse.


Quote
... where you get the idea that Gandalf is short. He is described as being fairly tall, isn't he?



I've been under the impression that he's of fairly average height and often slightly stooped and bent to boot. He's just very tall for the hobbits and wears a tall hat. He was mentioned looking like the most humble and small of the Istari when they first arrived to Middle-Earth. Galadriel on the other hand is huge by any measure, 6ft 4in. (193 cm)! I'm pretty sure that she'd tower over Gandalf, though not his hat.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Jan 12 2013, 5:50pm)

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