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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Protesting in advance to the notion of Galadriel carrying Gandalf like a babe in arms, as though she were an angel of mercy.
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MorgolKing
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 2:26pm

Post #26 of 77 (437 views)
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I agree.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I join the protest. This is too much.

And Boyens comment about Galadriel being the most powerful being in Middle Earth is really upsetting.

The White Council scene was very disappointing; Galadriel acts more powerful and above the other members of the council and vanishes into thin air.

Her picking up and saving "poor" Gandalf is just as outrageous as Arwen at Helms Deep. Ugh, where do they come up with this stuff????


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jan 11 2013, 2:27pm

Post #27 of 77 (446 views)
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Girls generally aren't stupid. [In reply to] Can't Post

Young girls tend not to be idiots - they are perfectly capable of taking inspiration from anyone or anything that they admire, whether its female, male, animal, vegetable or mineral - or even an abstract idea.

A great role model for a young girl would be a female screenwriter who doesn't try to spoon feed her audience with stereotypical role model material, but treats them as if they have some intelligence and imagination.

Watched Up yesterday - great film, and captures perfectly the ability of children, of either sex, to take something - in this case the idea of 'adventure' characterised by a (dodgy) male explorer, and make it entirely their own. In fact the entire film is driven and the events inspired by the adventurousness of the little girl we meet at the beginning of the film - which is something much more subtle and deep and lodged in the mind than the actual activity of adventure undergone by the man as he tries to keep his promise - something he only realises at the end of the story.

Galadriel's power is on full display in LOTR. All she needs to do it talk to you - in fact all she needs to do is exist - as evidenced in Gimli being ready to take on an entire army to defend her name in the TT. That's the point of it - it's so much greater than the obvious forms of power that the other characters exhibit. The hobbits power - the theme of both books in a way, is also not the obvious type, and although very different, is equally subtle - possibly why she understands them so well and has such an affinity with them.

The reason Sauron fears her is that she can do something he can't - inspire. He has to get physically involved - which is why he loses the ring. If she were to get the ring, people would do anything for her - much more than Sauron's servants who are just driven by fear. If she had been in charge instead of Sauron, the in-fighting in the tower that enabled Frodo and Sam to escape just wouldn't have happened. Galadriel's power is so great that she doesn't need to lift a finger to wield it. Having her doing stuff - lifting, carrying and fighting, at best detracts from her role in the story, and at worst makes her just another hero figure.

Incidentally, I liked what they did with Aragorn in the other films - he's not depicted as the greatest hacker and slasher - he has to struggle to defeat his enemies on the battlefield and has no superhuman skills. His real strength is that he inspires loyalty and belief. That's why Galadriel respects him.



In Reply To

Or perhaps they are just wanting young girls who are watching the movie to feel they have a role model - the perfect woman - kind, wise, brave, beautiful, strong etc.




Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2013, 2:28pm

Post #28 of 77 (427 views)
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'ultimate xena warrior' <- *gag* loool // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

--I'm a victim of Bifurcation--
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Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2013, 2:50pm

Post #29 of 77 (442 views)
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Okay, fair enough... [In reply to] Can't Post

and to counterbalance the panic over these comments from EMPIRE (which were actually taken from the McKellen interview in the HOBBIT special Dec 2012 issue,) let me quote what else Sir Ian had to say about Dol Guldur:


Quote

He remains tight-lipped on the subject of Dol Guldur (translation: "the hill of sorcery"), the fetid fastness that Gandalf dares to probe on his lonesome. This might be because he doesn't actually know yet what foul beasts he'll run into: "You probably know more than I do. We don't get to see the creatures until the premiere." But he does reveal that at one point he will be rescued by Radagast The Brown, the only man in Middle-earth to own a sleigh pulled by six oversized bunnies.



Also, Cate Blanchett states in her interview


Quote

"But what was extraordinary for me was getting to work with Ian McKellen. I only briefly worked with him in Lord of the Rings and in my very small part in The Hobbit it was mainly with him...



Perhaps this will ease some minds...


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort






burrahobbit
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 3:20pm

Post #30 of 77 (413 views)
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There's little drama in the original Dol Guldur storyline... [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course I can understand the appeal of including storylines that link to LotR. But taking a pure cinematic view on what happens in the Dol Guldur thread, I do wonder why they have included so much of it. To viewers who have seen LotR, we all know that Sauron does return; to viewers who have not seen LotR, there's little relevance to Bilbo and the dwarves in the Dol Guldur plot.

With little real character advancement and tension for the writers to develop, it is quite possible they will have to manufacture character drama in some way. Gandalf's vulnerability is one way. It's far too early to know how they will do it, but anything along the lines of what you've suggested Ainur would be disappointing. But we will have to wait!


Kassandros
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 3:21pm

Post #31 of 77 (396 views)
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We need to start a picket line in Wellington! [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering how awful the portrayal of Galadriel and Gandalf was in AUJ - and I think we all can agree it pretty much ruined the movie - I think we should be very wary of what PJ&Co have in store for DoS. They certainly haven't demonstrated that they can handle the subject mater sensitively!

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Arthael
Lorien


Jan 11 2013, 3:43pm

Post #32 of 77 (402 views)
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Funny you say it's made up by PJ [In reply to] Can't Post

Because actually it's been made up by people on this site!!!

Nowhere in the article does it say that
she comes floating in, glowing and unscathed, and picks up her "poor", overwhelmed "little helper"

That was completely imagined by worrywarts. It's probably not going to happen.

All we know is she carries him out. Who is to say she hasn't been in the fight the whole time, fighting right next to him, bloody and bruised and covered in soot and grime, and when Gandalf is felled she picks him up and retreats. Who is to say she doesn't arrive with an army of elven reinforcements and runs in (not floats), slashing through swathes of orcs to save Gandlaf just before he's overcome by the Necromancer?

Where on earth do you get off assuming she'll float, assuming she'll be unscathed, and assuming it'll be a patronizing scene?

Lord knows the scene you described would be awful, and I'd hate it as much as you, but we have no evidence to suggest that's how it'd going to play out. So stop worrying just a little bit...


"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."


Voronw_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jan 11 2013, 3:45pm

Post #33 of 77 (425 views)
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In The Silmarillion as written by J.R.R. Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

She is described as the "most valiant" of the House of Finwe. That's pretty hardcore. Of course, you won't find that anywhere in the text published by Christopher Tolkien.

Pity.

I am cautiously looking forward to the possibility of a "hardcore" Galadriel coming to Mithrandil's rescue.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2013, 3:54pm

Post #34 of 77 (394 views)
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Yes, but that's not "detail"... [In reply to] Can't Post

.it just tells us she was brave of heart. The closest I could find was the description in UT that said she "fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her Mother's kin."


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort






Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 3:56pm

Post #35 of 77 (374 views)
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Thank you. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Because actually it's been made up by people on this site!!!


There hasn't been enough sanity in this thread to go around. Personally I suspect that what we'll actually see is Gandalf infiltrating Dol Guldur, learning the truth about Sauron and getting badly beaten, barely escaping with his life. He will then flee, badly wounded, calling for help by some means (animals, telepathy, Radagast, whatever), and Galadriel will show up in awhile and treat him.

This is ofcourse purely wild speculation, but it would play well into the foreshadowing of Gandalf's suspicions and Galadriel's promise to help him if he calls for her. It would also neatly demonstrate the threat level that Necromancer poses in the same scene.


(This post was edited by Lightice on Jan 11 2013, 3:57pm)


Voronw_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jan 11 2013, 3:56pm

Post #36 of 77 (373 views)
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I knew you were going to say that! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 4:04pm

Post #37 of 77 (379 views)
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It is made up by PJ [In reply to] Can't Post

In that Tolkien has never adequetly described it, so PJ has to fill in the blanks. Her floating in would anger me, but annoy someone else. Her fighting right next to him would also anger me and someone else, but not everyone. My preferred take is that other elves do the ground fighting, then she levels the place from a distance would anger some also.

The key is that you can't please everyone, but her floating in is very predictable and I just see that happening. That is my assumption.

I can't see why we can't make guesses about events that could happen and complain about them, especially if PJ and his crew do happen upon the site once in a while. There's still lots of time to change things or relegate them to the EE. What else is there to do for a year?


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 4:13pm

Post #38 of 77 (361 views)
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Why would floating be "predictable"? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The key is that you can't please everyone, but her floating in is very predictable and I just see that happening. That is my assumption.



What floats in the LotR or The AUJ? Lets see...nothing, nothing and more nothing. Not elves, ghost or any other creatures. Even Sauron's eye stands on the top of Barad-Dr. What indicates that something would float in any subsequent parts? Lets see...More nothing. Why then, would you imagine that Galadriel floats? It's absurd imaginations of a disgruntled fan, nothing more.

And do you honestly imagine that PJ or any other director worth his job description is tailoring his films based on the contents of fansites, let alone baseless predictions of unfinished products?

My prediction, the most likely to come true, that this is all much ado about nothing. Gandalf gets injured to demonstrate the power of his enemy and gets carried to safety by Galadriel. What the context is, we only have speculations, though I very much doubt that it's the main assault on Dol Guldur.


(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jan 11 2013, 4:18pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 4:19pm

Post #39 of 77 (352 views)
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This is a very good point [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
My prediction, the most likely to come true, that this is all much ado about nothing. Gandalf gets injured to demonstrate the power of his enemy and gets carried to safety by Galadriel. What the context is, we only have speculations, though I very much doubt that it's the main assault on Dol Guldur.


If Radagast doesn't die, then it makes sense for Gandalf to be (seriously) injured. If the White Council all walked out of Dol Guldur without a bruise ... then the battle is not threatening at all - it's not exciting or dramatic.

I wonder if this is how Gandalf will break his arm in the film. Maybe he turns up to the BO5A having already broken his arm?


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jan 11 2013, 4:20pm)


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 4:22pm

Post #40 of 77 (344 views)
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Galadriel is shown as otherworldly all the time [In reply to] Can't Post

So if she's there in the thick of things doing something anyone can do, she will do it in a way that is visually spectacular so al the tweens will squeal.

This is just my opinion based on what PJ does. Nothing is ever subtle with him in an action scene. Thorin leaving the tree to fight Azog was slow-motion, "epic" music in the fire with constant cuts to the dwarves screaming "nooooo". Once Boromir started to get shot, we went right to slo-mo to draw it out. If Galadriel carries Gandalf, it will be drawn out, and she will not just toss him on her shoulder and walkout with no epic music or effects.

She might float, she might not. The point is that it will likely not be subtle, and that will upset me. Until then, no need to be upset about people theorizing. We're jsut talking 'what-ifs" here.


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 4:25pm

Post #41 of 77 (331 views)
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Just "what-ifs"? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
She might float, she might not. The point is that it will likely not be subtle, and that will upset me. Until then, no need to be upset about people theorizing. We're jsut talking 'what-ifs" here.


You are getting angry and upset by a scene that you have made up for yourselves. This is what bugs me. You are getting angry at Peter Jackson over a scene that thus far does not exist outside your imaginations. It's one thing to theorise and speculate, it's a completely different matter to come up with things that make you angry and then act like they are true.


Arannir
Valinor

Jan 11 2013, 4:26pm

Post #42 of 77 (339 views)
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Is this irony? [In reply to] Can't Post

If not, no, we cannot agree on that.

If it is, sorry for not realizing ;)


(This post was edited by Arannir on Jan 11 2013, 4:33pm)


Kullervo
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 4:35pm

Post #43 of 77 (326 views)
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Galadriel is shown as otherworldly [In reply to] Can't Post

Or maybe ethereal is a better way to describe it. But I don't see why that is a problem. And I also fail to see how an epic battle between the mythical forces of good and evil should not look visually stunning.

And I don't think inventing scenarious and then panicking about them is really productive. All we know, like Lightice said, is that Galadriel carries Gandalf away. And we don't really even know that for a certain, it could very well be cut from the movie (I hope not, because I see potential there, if done well).


imin
Valinor


Jan 11 2013, 5:08pm

Post #44 of 77 (316 views)
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I agree with this but it aint going to happen [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
. A great role model for a young girl would be a female screenwriter who doesn't try to spoon feed her audience with stereotypical role model material, but treats them as if they have some intelligence and imagination.

In Reply To

They are just not that clever (the writers) and from what we know of tauriel she is going to be a stereotypical tough girl type character - though when the film comes out this may change. The Hobbit doesnt seem the type of film that they will move away from stereotypes though.


Istaris'staffs
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 5:14pm

Post #45 of 77 (318 views)
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No one is infallible [In reply to] Can't Post

in Tolkien's universe. Even Gandalf may need to be saved at times...

"Are you mad? You'll never out run them, those are Gundabad warns!"
"And these are RHOSGOBEL rabbits! I'd like to see them try."


MorgolKing
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 5:26pm

Post #46 of 77 (304 views)
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Um.. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
in Tolkien's universe. Even Gandalf may need to be saved at times...


We witnessed that. It's in FoTR and TTT. Why weaken the character even more and superfluously I might add.

And why decide that Galadriel must be the most powerful being in ME and seemingl infallible?


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 11 2013, 5:33pm

Post #47 of 77 (301 views)
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Thanks for clearing the air. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think our chains are being yanked, but if it does happen, I guess we'll see another firestorm here. I don't like the idea either, but there ain't nuthin' I can do about it if it's in the final cut.


Kassandros
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 5:34pm

Post #48 of 77 (288 views)
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Sarcasm, not irony [In reply to] Can't Post

I was being sarcastic, yes.

I think this whole thread is pretty hilarious and I find it very hard to take seriously. There is zero context. Just one rumor. We know pretty much nothing about this. It seems pretty ridiculous to get into a rage over fears that these womenfolk screenwriters are going to ruin Middle Earth by having one of Tolkien's most powerful female characters do something other than stand around and look pretty. She is one of the oldest and most powerful elves on Middle Earth and wields one of the four most powerful artifacts still in existence. I somehow think she can manage to rescue Gandalf. But arguing about Galadriel's capabilities is beside the point: we know pretty much nothing about this scene.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Arannir
Valinor

Jan 11 2013, 5:36pm

Post #49 of 77 (292 views)
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Why would Galadriel... [In reply to] Can't Post

... seem infallible? We do not know yet what will happen in the battle, they may all get their share of wounds.

Plus... Galadriel had something deeply melancholic about her in LotR and she obviously had "some" ring temptation (although she does not give in to it, but she goes mental before).

Hardly a sign of an infallible character imho.



One thing remains: A lot of fuss about something we almost know nothing about. At least no reason to go into "writer-have-no-imagination-only-want-the-stupid-girls" territory (unless one only looks for a reason to start doing that, of course. That is a general comment btw.).


(This post was edited by Arannir on Jan 11 2013, 5:37pm)


Kassandros
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 5:37pm

Post #50 of 77 (293 views)
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The TT movie does not show Galadriel's part in rescuing Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

One could speculate that the filmmakers may be considering moving this idea from LotR to The Hobbit. They like to do that sort of thing. On the other hand, maybe not. We don't know anything about this scene.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...

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