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Lightice
Lorien
Jan 10 2013, 10:39pm
Post #26 of 42
(409 views)
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Also Saurons mere presence back in the world seems to stir up things like wights, also undead.
The Barrow-wights are technically evil spirits that possess the corpses of dead kings, not actual spirits of the dead. But yes, actual resurrection of the dead is not something that Sauron could do. At best he could reanimate the dead flesh, like with wights.
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pettytyrant101
Lorien
Jan 11 2013, 12:32am
Post #27 of 42
(387 views)
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I was thinking from the perspective of those living close by to them when I wrote it, to whom it would just appear the dead were rising.
Giving a reason for people to associate undead with Dol Guldur and so the name Necromancer without him having to be resurrecting orcs to earn it.
(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on Jan 11 2013, 12:33am)
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Loresilme
Valinor
Jan 11 2013, 12:55am
Post #28 of 42
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*smacks forehead* That's a really good point!
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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea
Jan 11 2013, 1:05am
Post #29 of 42
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Thorin, aside from a few streaks of grey in his hair, doesn't really appear any older than he does in the Azanulbizar sequence...
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yet Balin and Dwalin do. Weird.
My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
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Rostron2
Gondor
Jan 11 2013, 2:03am
Post #30 of 42
(368 views)
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YES I WILL. He has a Ring of Power! OK, can of worms opened.
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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea
Jan 11 2013, 2:17am
Post #31 of 42
(368 views)
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Or perhaps Thorin and Azog are both Maiar?
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I suppose that would make Azog a Boldog (as some had speculated of Azog/Bolg here prior to the film's release), and Thorin...a...Dwoldog?
My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
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flameofudun
Lorien
Jan 11 2013, 4:09am
Post #33 of 42
(343 views)
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This is my speculation as well.
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Though I like to call it a theory.
''We are very dangerous over short distances''
-Gimli
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Plurmo
Rohan
Jan 11 2013, 4:13am
Post #34 of 42
(346 views)
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According to the laws of Middle-earth dead men don't pay taxes, the exception being the carbon tax for natural gas burning collected from the dead residing in the Dead Marshes. Anyway, that's why a necromancer's abode is considered a tax haven. Therefore most necromancers live on money laundering. Though some might try themselves raising taxes from the dead, that is not considered ethical behavior in the necromancy business, so most of the time they are satisfied in raising the dead without further charges.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jan 11 2013, 5:46am
Post #35 of 42
(341 views)
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My thought is that Azog is either of the Elf strain of orc lineage, or else is either himself
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intended, in these films, to be a Boldog or a descendant of a Boldog orc (that is to say, that most fell and perilous type of orcs who were not orcs at all, but Maiar demons who took shape to be captains to the orcs, but were not powerful enough to manifest as more dreadful demons, and certainly not mighty enough to be classified with the Balrogs. Even the names Bolg and Azog have some hint of Boldog in them, especially if mixed and matched together). Being descended from Boldog lineage (which would likely enough have been mixed with Elf lineage) would also explain his unusual size, strength, malice and battle prowess.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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TFP
Lorien
Jan 11 2013, 10:42am
Post #36 of 42
(310 views)
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re: "Orcs are certainly long lived"
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Tolkien gives a clue about this in the conversations between Shagrat and Gorbag in LOTR (book) They talk about the 'good old days' when there were 'no bosses'. Implication that at the very least they have lived long enough to be around before Sauron's return. Maybe even as long as the Second Age. I need to re-read that section again.
I agree with this.
Within Tolkien's various works there's plenty of ambiguity about the origins & nature of orcs, including possible suggestions that some or all are corrupted [immortal] elves, that some of the 'big nobs' might even be maiar, that some of the goblins who recognise Orcrist & Glamdring in goblin town were actually present at Gondolin... But nothing at all that's absolutely definitive.
In the context of the OP's something we can say with absolute certainty is that at least some orcs are very long lived, probably more so than dwarves even. So Azog's unchanged appearance [if not his appearance per se] stacks up well enough.
Incidentally that Shagrat/Gorbag conversation always really captured my imagination as well. In a lot of ways Tolkien's orcs are implausible, in particular they seem so cartoonishly degenerate & warlike that it's impossible to imagine them managing to live very long, or co-operating with each other well enough to form any kind of civilisation. But that conversation hints intriguingly at something different. I'd very much like to have read some really good quality writing done from an orc's perspective, but am guessing that this won't happen now...
(This post was edited by TFP on Jan 11 2013, 10:46am)
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TheWhiteRider
Bree
Jan 11 2013, 2:33pm
Post #37 of 42
(292 views)
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Does gandalf age? Didn't the wizards take the form of old men when they are sent to middle-earth? He says to Galadriel in the movie that age has changed him 
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Lightice
Lorien
Jan 11 2013, 3:03pm
Post #38 of 42
(279 views)
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Does gandalf age? Didn't the wizards take the form of old men when they are sent to middle-earth? He says to Galadriel in the movie that age has changed him
They just age very slowly, and usually by stress rather than time. Frodo thinks early in the FotR that Gandalf seems much older than the last time they met, most likely because he learned the truth about the One Ring. It's also mentioned in the Appendix or the Unfinished Tales (can't remember which) that Saruman had jet-black hair and beard when he first came to Middle-Earth, but they went white over time.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jan 11 2013, 3:29pm
Post #39 of 42
(270 views)
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On a side note, there is a fantasy series I have seen in the book store
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but not read called "Orcs"
http://sfbook.com/orcs.htm
Orcs by Stan Nicholls
Orcs: First Blood Series Anthology
Has anyone read the series and can they contrast these Orcs to JRRT's? I guess the name "Orc" is not copyrighted (I think the origin was noted in Norse etc..)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 11 2013, 3:32pm)
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Rostron2
Gondor
Jan 12 2013, 12:06am
Post #40 of 42
(247 views)
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Thanks for reading...in addition...The Extended scene of ROTK
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Where Frodo and Sam are driven along in the orc column is interesting also to me. It's very short, but the whole idea of conscripts and their overseers reminded me of the trench warfare era of WWI. Hordes of men were literally driven to the front to be mown down, sort of like what happened in the conscript Russian armies on the eastern front in WWI. The French, too had to force their soldier to fight after a certain point.
While the scene wasn't written by Tolkien, obviously, it does bring with it a ghostly echo to his experiences in the First World War.
The line by one of the orc sergeants in that scene sort of follows the idea of the conversation of Shagrat/Gorbag. "Don't you know we're at war?!!"
So, even by that one line, we get an insight that at least some of the orcs understand that they are fighting for their own survival, at least some must have survived since the prior ages. Shagrat and Gorbag had a similar conversation, as already noted.
The sword reputation could simply be lore, ("My grandpappy Grotnug tol me about Biter!") but yes, it's possible some of the larger, bolder, mountain orcs lived long enough to recall Gondolin.
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dave_lf
Gondor
Jan 12 2013, 12:46am
Post #41 of 42
(243 views)
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Surely there are many perils in the world
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it's possible some of the larger, bolder, mountain orcs lived long enough to recall Gondolin.
There are old orcs and there are bold orcs, but there aren't old, bold orcs.
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Aragalen the Green
Gondor
Jan 12 2013, 5:01pm
Post #42 of 42
(244 views)
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while he is fighting, and it does glow--except when he is near Azog. It is either very faint or not at all. I'm starting to get on the bandwagon here with the idea of Azog being influenced somehow, not necessarily reincarnated but something is going on with him. Like he is not entirely an Orc?
" Well well!", said a voice. "Just look! Bilbo the hobbit on a pony, my dear! Isn't it delicious!"
"Most astonishing wonderful!"
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