|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 31 2012, 3:38am
Post #1 of 51
(4721 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Silmarillion discussion: Ainulindale
|
Can't Post
|
|
“There was Eru, the One,…” What a bold way to start off a creation story.
Tolkien deliberately emulates the wording of Genesis (count all the “and’s” for fun), but it’s a big departure that Creation came from a Great Music. Googling various creation myths, I didn’t come up with any that were based on music, so Tolkien wins the innovation prize. Or prove me wrong: does anyone know of a creation story based on music? (I read one argument that Genesis was meant to be sung or chanted, but that’s not the same.)
Eru is given no beginning, but the Ainur have one and come from his thought. Any ideas on why he didn’t sing them into existence?
It’s not simple music: “Sing! A world!” Instead it’s a dramatic story of competing themes, where original beauty and harmony clash with vanity and discord in a near-war. Not only does the Great Music create, it spells out the fate of the world and its peoples. On first read, I was confused by the complexity of all this, but now I enjoy it. What’s your first reaction?
The Music of the Ainur lives on in water, especially the Sea, and the Ainur considered water better than earth and air. Yet Ulmo isn’t the chief of the Valar. Why do you suppose Tolkien chose Manwe as the king of the world over Ulmo? Was he bowing to the influence of Norse and Greek myths that had the thunder/sky god as First God?
“Many of the Children of Iluvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen.” >> Do waterfalls and ocean waves sound musical to you, or is their sound their own and unrelated to music?
Melkor’s sins: secrecy, pride, lust for power. What would you add?
What this chapter tells us about Tolkien that we see in all his Middle-earth works:
- He loves music.
- He loves water, especially the sea.
- The greatest people can become the most evil. (Melkor here, Feanor later.)
- The desire to subdue others to your will is evil.
What else would you add?
Bonus question: if you wrote a creation story, what would you base it on? Cooking? Painting? Manufacturing? Computers? Laughter?
|
|
|
Ardamírë
Valinor
Dec 31 2012, 4:14am
Post #2 of 51
(3437 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Thanks for kicking this off, CuriousG!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
First reaction? Well, I read it first when I was 10 or 11. Skipped over Ainulindale and Valaquenta, and was still overwhelmed by chapter one. I don't think I returned for a couple of years.
"There was Eru, the One,..." Given Tolkien's Catholic background, it's not at all surprising to find that he begins his creation account in the same manner as Genesis by claiming only one god. Compare Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." (emphasis mine). Not "gods" or "a god" but "God" - as in the only one.
The Music of the Ainur. I actually don't think it's that big of a departure to put a creation story to song. Again, Genesis asserts that God spoke the world into existence. It's not that much of a stretch to think of putting it to music or (more accurately) of being music. It almost conjures up the idea of a musical for me - a dramatic story telling. C.S. Lewis also has Aslan sing Narnia into creation in The Chronicles of Narnia, though I couldn't say if he got the idea from Tolkien or not.
I think Eru didn't sing the Ainur into existence to show that they are separate from Ea. He thinks them into existence and then they assist (or at least, He uses them) in the creation of the world. I don't have my copy on hand, and it's been a while since I read it, but I have a thought. Eru's creation goes from thought to sound (the music) to actual spoken word Ea. I think he doesn't say Ea until the end, right? If not, then that train of thought is void 
Why do you suppose Tolkien chose Manwe as the king of the world over Ulmo? Was he bowing to the influence of Norse and Greek myths that had the thunder/sky god as First God?
That might be part of it. But also, Ulmo cannot be head Vala or else he couldn't secretly support the Noldor in Beleriand against the Valar's will. Remember he uses the streams and waters of Beleriand to communicate with the exiles. And he also comes to Tuor against the will of the Valar. Recall what he says to Tuor at Nevrast (in Unfinished Tales):
Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was ap-pointed ere the making of the World.
And later:
‘Go now,’ said Ulmo, ‘lest the Sea devour thee! For Ossë obeys the will of Mandos, and he is wroth, being a servant of the Doom.’
Well, that's all for now. I'll try to read Ainulindale tomorrow and add more thoughts. Thanks again! It was quite fun
There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 31 2012, 10:22pm
Post #3 of 51
(3333 views)
Shortcut
|
Why not sing the Aunur? Because it is one thing to imagine lines for different instruments, and quite another to be playing in an ensemble. I'm not much of a musician, but or do you need to be much of one to appreciate the magical feeling of playing music with others.
That Melkor is such a lead guitarist- glory hog :)
But it seems the discord was all part of the plan c.f.:
"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result..." Gen 50:20
I like the idea that the musicians are surprised by what they made, and will continue to get surprises down the ages...
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 31 2012, 10:31pm
Post #4 of 51
(3288 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Tolkien seemed to have the same sentiments about evil
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Iluvatar has the same concept in different words:
Quote
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.
Now try to say "attempteth" without lisping.
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 31 2012, 10:53pm
Post #5 of 51
(3269 views)
Shortcut
|
I wasNicking SirDennisC' s Biblical quote from the "oft evil will shall evil mar "thread
http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=536537#536537
This is where all that gets baked into the fabric of the Tolkien universe, I suppose...
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
Jan 1 2013, 2:35pm
Post #6 of 51
(3287 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Hark to those herald angels singing
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
...it’s a big departure that Creation came from a Great Music. Googling various creation myths, I didn’t come up with any that were based on music, so Tolkien wins the innovation prize. Or prove me wrong: does anyone know of a creation story based on music?
It’s not simple music: “Sing! A world!” Instead it’s a dramatic story of competing themes, where original beauty and harmony clash with vanity and discord in a near-war. Not only does the Great Music create, it spells out the fate of the world and its peoples. On first read, I was confused by the complexity of all this, but now I enjoy it. What’s your first reaction?
You got me thinking about the Ainulindale's complex choral music as a metaphor for the Creation, and the question of why Tolkien apparently was the first to write a creation story based on music.
Obviously, the primary issue is the basis on which we should be comparing this early 20th century work of fiction with "various creation myths", as you put it. As always with his "legendarium", Tolkien is emulating a mythology, not creating one anew. No one believes in the Silmarillion in the sense that hundreds of generations of people have believed in the various creation stories of the world's pre-industrial cultures - which were told and retold orally long before they were ever written down by later recorders. In short, every real creation myth dates back at least several thousand years before the present.
Now, how old is the tradition of polyphonic choral music (choruses with more than one vocal line) - the apparent model for the Silmarillion's song of creation? As far as I can tell from a quick scan of the internet, this form came into being in the late medieval era and during the Renaissance - thanks to the institution of the Catholic church. Tolkien, I don't doubt, was entranced by this then-traditional music every week when he attended Mass throughout his life. Nor was he the first to transpose cause and effect: surely it was from the inspiration of hearing an earthly choir in full voices that he, like so many Christian mythologists, imagined the angels of heaven as a series of choirs singing to the Lord in His own presence.
In short, no real Creation myth uses a Great Music because such Music didn't exist and had never been imagined before about 1400 A.D. in Christian Europe.
It was Tolkien's idea to make this the vehicle for a Creation itself, which he does quite wonderfully with his harmonies, themes, chords and discords. (His squabbles between a conductor/composer and a prima donna soloist often remind me of A Chorus Line or Drum Line or other oldie-but-goodies of generic musical fiction that I'm sure had their equivalents in Tolkien's time.) But this relatively modern invention that he uses is, in many ways, as anachronistic to the style of story he is writing as the famous set of steam locomotives is that whoosh through his later Middle-earth fiction.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
(This post was edited by squire on Jan 1 2013, 2:37pm)
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 1 2013, 7:14pm
Post #7 of 51
(3224 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Should have read the brochure?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The Ainur perform their music and the universe comes into being.
They see a Vision of the world they've created.
Part of it is Arda, the world.
Some of the Ainur agree to limit their powers and become part of Arda - these Ainur are then called the Valar
But when they arrive on Arda they "were at first astounded and at a loss" because the Vision they saw is yet to come. "So began their great labours".
A bit unexpected perhaps? Like arriving at your luxury hotel and bring told "there WILL be a hotel one day, here's your hard hat and shovel"?
|
|
|
Mim
The Shire
Jan 1 2013, 7:42pm
Post #8 of 51
(3211 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Modern myth from modern things
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I think that Tolkien’s choice to use music in his creation myth makes a lot of sense. He is obviously mimicking the style of creation stories, but he chooses to use music, and he would have been aware that that was not a feature of most creation myths so I think it is probably safe to propose that that is consciously anachronistic. Myths generally reflect the ideas of a particular people in a particular historical moment. So perhaps he was torn between imitating the existing creation myths and writing something that is actually slightly more authentically mythological for his people in his historical moment. Music became such an integral part of religion over the years, that you could suggest that were creation stories to be written now as opposed to thousands of years ago they may well have included music.
I would suggest that he doesn’t sing the Ainur into existence because the basis of the music that is created is that it does consist of many different strands. It would seem a little odd I think if he sang those strands to create something…and then those creations sang the same strands again to create everything else. Might be a bit like playing the violin to create a violin so that that violin can play the symphony. The creation of the Ainur then ends up seeming a bit clumsy and repetitive. Where as if they are thought into existence then we can perhaps seem them as parts of Eru, personified as instruments to play out particular parts. Instruments literally in that they create the music and instruments in the sense that they play out his will.
I didn’t really think of the music that was created as being complex in the beginning. But that might be because I’ve been an orchestral musician so when I think music, I think complicated.
I think the big problem of having the sea as king is that the sea doesn’t really fit into that role. It’s not in a position where it can over look everything, it’s relatively powerless in the mainland and for it to have an impact on you, you need to be close to it or in/on it. On the other hand the sky perfectly embodies those kinds of features of kingship, all seeing, all-powerful and you can’t escape its effects.
As far as the relationship between music and water goes, I don’t think they’re intrinsically related. I think the link between music and water lies in the fact that the sound of water is difficult to replicate. There are several pieces of music that attempt to recreate the sound of water, but you can never quite manage it. There in perhaps, lies the draw of the water for a people made from music because the sound of water is so difficult to incorporate into music. Perhaps that can also help to explain why Ulmo isn’t the king, his element may not be that easily incorporated into the fabric of the greater music.
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 1 2013, 9:21pm
Post #9 of 51
(3162 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Thanks--great points, especially
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The creation of the Ainur then ends up seeming a bit clumsy and repetitive. I was thinking that he lacked a little consistency here, but you're right, he risked being repetitive otherwise. Someone might groan, "So if Eru wanted a cup of coffee, he'd sing that into being too?"
I think the big problem of having the sea as king is that the sea doesn’t really fit into that role. It’s not in a position where it can over look everything, it’s relatively powerless in the mainland and for it to have an impact on you, you need to be close to it or in/on it. On the other hand the sky perfectly embodies those kinds of features of kingship, all seeing, all-powerful and you can’t escape its effects. Makes sense. For the same reason, I suppose that an earth god would have no power over the sea, so they also wouldn't make a good king of the gods. There is a lot of logic in myths, if you peel them back enough. (Maybe I should have taken a cue from comic book fans who complain that Aquaman is useless on dry land, and it doesn't matter what he can do in the water.)
However, there' more about Ulmo's broad powers in the next chapter (Valaquenta) that exist all over earth. Because he rules all water, including little springs and streams, he has power in dry land too. "The Elves say that the spirit of Ulmo runs in all the veins of the world. Thus news comes to Ulmo...which otherwise would be hidden from Manwe." But it also says he likes to stay in the sea and doesn't like going to Valimar, and seems to prefer being alone and having no fixed abode, so that wouldn't be right for a king. As a wandering loner, he sounds like Gandalf.
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 1 2013, 9:25pm
Post #10 of 51
(3209 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It does strike me every time I read it
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
That part about the Ainur being dismayed that the Arda they found wasn't the one in the vision from Iluvatar. It seems a little unfair of him to give them a bad surprise like that. And for the narrative, it seems that nothing would be lost if Eru did say, "This is the Arda that you will create, but you must start from scratch," and the Ainur happily go to work. But I think the Ainur are otherwise hard to identify with as beings, and this passage is something that humans run into, so they don't seem human, but more understandable.
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 1 2013, 10:04pm
Post #11 of 51
(3222 views)
Shortcut
|
But to keep at it, why couldn't hunter-gatherers, who sing (I'm guessing singing didn't come too long after people spoke), tell stories around the fire about the gods who sang individually? Such as, "The god Serpens sang to the stream, and snakes were born. The god Florian sang to the sky, and flowers were born." Or whatever. In a way, it seems odd that no one ever thought of music as a creative force before. Instead creation usually sounds like the work done by a craftsman.
Another thing I noticed is that most creation myths involve violence. Even Eru has strife when Melkor tries to highjack the Great Music, though no one is hurt or killed; there's lot of killing in other legends. Not sure why Creation of the Universe involves destruction--seems like that would come later.
Hebrew/Christian/Muslim: God issues verbal commands.
Norse: Odin kills a giant and creates the Earth from its body parts.
Hindu: This page isn't authoritative, but credible: Brahma creates the world from a lotus flower.
Aztec: Gods beget gods who create things.
Mayans: I found several; this one is most direct about creation, which uses thought and verbal commands.
Greeks: Several competing stories, but same general pattern as Aztecs.
Sumerians: Same general pattern as Aztecs.
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 1 2013, 10:30pm
Post #12 of 51
(3210 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Nice--thought to music to sound
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I haven't read the Narnia books for so long--thanks for bringing up Aslan, singing, and creation. Maybe this is something the Inklings discussed?
Eru's creation goes from thought to sound (the music) to actual spoken word Ea. I think he doesn't say Ea until the end, right? If not, then that train of thought is void. You are right, and that's a great observation. He does say Eä! pretty late in the story, which has always seemed out of place to me. Maybe Tolkien had this sort of progression in mind? When Eru gets to "Eä!", he sounds more like the God in Genesis: "Eä! Let these things be", as in "Let there be light."
That might be part of it. But also, Ulmo cannot be head Vala or else he couldn't secretly support the Noldor in Beleriand against the Valar's will. The story would get contradictory if Ulmo was the chief god and aided the Noldor, since he'd be breaking his own ban on them (if Ulmo banned them as Manwe did).** But does the story dictate who gets to be chief god? If Ulmo were #1, he could ban the Noldor, and Manwe or Aule or Varda could help them, especially Varda. But maybe Tolkien liked having Ulmo be several things: 1) god of water who stays in touch with the world the other gods retreat from, 2) the renegade who helps the Noldor when he's not really supposed to, 3) the Gandalf sort of person who wanders alone and eschews established authority, such as the wizard refusing to be head of the White Council. Ulmo is certainly more sympathetic as the renegade helping the Noldor than he would be as chief god.
**[RE: the Alignment thread: Ulmo is Chaotic Good.]
|
|
|
Plurmo
Rohan
Jan 2 2013, 3:26am
Post #13 of 51
(3204 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I wonder if the creation myth of Arda was analogous to
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Tolkien's creation of a World that could only be described in elvish language.
In his mind, the music and meaning of the words he created was perfect, but any script he would try using would inevitably lack fidelity to what he wanted to convey. The musicality of the speech would be hard to learn and English would not translate it with enough accuracy. Even if one or two attentive readers could "read his Arda," the majority would end up reading "Arda Marred" instead.
At some point he would have accepted that concrete, "real" textual Arda was indeed Arda Marred, the Arda made by others according to their ability, while Arda Unmarred, his creation of perfect sound and meaning, was destined to be forever a blueprint inside his mind.
Regarding the musicality of water, I have this perception that Tolkien particularly liked words ending in "th." And I, as a non English reader, have this, perhaps wrong, impression that words in English ending in "th" end with the sound of dying foam. In that sense this would be one instance where the music of water would be present in Tolkien's language-created world.
|
|
|
Cyberia
The Shire
Jan 2 2013, 8:09am
Post #14 of 51
(3197 views)
Shortcut
|
Ulmo reminds me of another god(ess) of the Sea, Calypso in Pirates of the Caribean. Particularly when she said to Davy Jones:
Jones: For ten years I waited, then when we could be together...YOU WEREN'T THERE. WHY WEREN'T YOU?
Calypso: (innocent shrug) It's in my nature.....
Meaning she couldn't help it. As the embodiment of the sea, she was unpredictable...treacherous even. It wasn't personal, it's who she was.
|
|
|
Ardamírë
Valinor
Jan 2 2013, 5:15pm
Post #15 of 51
(3186 views)
Shortcut
|
The Music of the Ainur lives on in water, especially the Sea, and the Ainur considered water better than earth and air.
You then ask why Tolkien chose Manwe over Ulmo. But since Tolkien used all the waters of Middle-earth as Ulmo's domain, that includes the rivers and streams and pools in Beleriand. And if Tolkien wanted the god of the sea to be able to communicate with the Noldor through these, then that necessitates that Ulmo not be Chief Vala. He can't be rebel and chief. So I guess I'd say the story does dictate that it cannot be Ulmo.
I quite like your comparison of Ulmo to Gandalf. And really, I see him very much the same, only on a grander, more majestic scale, and more rebellious against the Valar rather than their emissary.
There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).
|
|
|
Ardamírë
Valinor
Jan 2 2013, 5:19pm
Post #16 of 51
(3139 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I actually don't see the similarity
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Other than being gods of the sea. Ulmo is always looking out for the peoples of Middle-earth. He's not especially fickle or unpredictable, and definitely not treacherous.
It's not to say I don't like Calypso. I find her to be a very interesting character, but I don't really think she's very much like Ulmo. I'd say she's more like Ossë or Uinen.
There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 2 2013, 6:37pm
Post #17 of 51
(3163 views)
Shortcut
|
My original and follow-up questions should have more clearly stated my line of thinking, which is:
1. Tolkien rates water as the best element in Arda, so why would the Vala of that element be #2?
2. If the reason for that is that there needed to be a Vala who helped the Noldor, then what about this scenario? Ulmo is the #1 Vala and issues the ban on the Noldor, then a lesser Vala, such as Manwe, is the one in the story who helps the Noldor. Or others from a long list of options: Varda could help them because the Eldar love her most, or Lorien could come to them in dreams, or Orome could help them on his rides through Middle-earth.
I should have originally asked: "Does the personality of Ulmo have to be the way it is? Was Tolkien so determined to make Ulmo the kindly renegade that he had no choice but to make him #2 since a renegade couldn't be #1? Or would it have been more logical and consistent with water being #1 that Ulmo should be #1, and the kindly renegade role would be assigned to someone else?"
When I think about it, Aule lives in Valinor, not underground caves, and Manwe may have a palace on a high mountain, but he doesn't float around in the sky all the time, so neither immerses themselves in their element as Ulmo does. What if Ulmo was like the others and ruled the sea from Valinor? That should be possible.
This is more "what if" than anything. I'm not criticizing Tolkien at all, I'm just puzzled that he made water #1 and Ulmo #2, not that it was a bad choice.
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
Jan 2 2013, 7:19pm
Post #18 of 51
(3169 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Stop me if you've heard this one, O Muse
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But to keep at it, why couldn't hunter-gatherers, who sing (I'm guessing singing didn't come too long after people spoke), tell stories around the fire about the gods who sang individually? Such as, "The god Serpens sang to the stream, and snakes were born. The god Florian sang to the sky, and flowers were born." Or whatever. In a way, it seems odd that no one ever thought of music as a creative force before. Instead creation usually sounds like the work done by a craftsman.
Thinking about your question, I wonder if the answer isn't due to the fact that music is fundamentally about rhythm and repetition. It's quality is not originality in the sense that a spark or a new idea seem original to us. Music, both acoustical and verbal (as in poetry), is prized for its virtue in helping with accompaniment and in remembering. The later inventions of harmonies and polyphonies are what makes more sophisticated and modern forms of art-music seem "original" to us, but I question whether older and less sophisticated cultures perceived or performed their music in that spirit.
You might say that the stories told around the campfire would have been sung, so as to be more easily remembered and kept unchanged, but the singers would never assume that the god-figures who created their universes were singing a song to execute the creation. Given the nature of music, that would imply that the universes were well-known and already occupying their usual cyclical places in space-time, which is the opposite of creation!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 2 2013, 8:14pm
Post #19 of 51
(3208 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Excellent insight--many thanks! //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 3 2013, 4:54pm
Post #20 of 51
(3177 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Another sung creation- the Kalevala
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The Kalevala (A 19th-century work of epic poetry compiled by Elias Lönnrot from Finnish and Karelian oral folklore and mythology) begins with the traditional Finnish creation myth:
"Creation, healing, combat and internal story telling are often accomplished by the character(s) involved singing of their exploits or desires. Many parts of the stories involve a character hunting or requesting lyrics (spells) to acquire some skill, such as boat-building or the mastery of iron making."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevala
(Not my own detective work here - it comes up in Tom Shippey's book " JRR Tolkien author of the century")
|
|
|
Ardamírë
Valinor
Jan 4 2013, 12:41am
Post #21 of 51
(3129 views)
Shortcut
|
Ulmo doesn't have to be the way he is, of course. I do wonder, though, how far back the quote about water being #1 goes back. If it's a later conception, then Manwe and Ulmo's places in the story would have already been firmly established.
I really don't know. I do think, though, that much of it goes back to other mythologies with multiple gods. The god of the heavens seems to be #1, so it's probably why Manwe is as well.
I know it's not a very good argument or coherent thought, but it's all I've got right now 
There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).
|
|
|
Eruonen
Half-elven
Jan 4 2013, 9:31pm
Post #22 of 51
(3079 views)
Shortcut
|
|
He was not far off of reality either............
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
http://news.bbc.co.uk/...e/nature/1304666.stm
Monday, 30 April, 2001, 15:07 GMT 16:07 UK
Astronomers hear 'music of creation'
Big Bang...big drum boom and then...
"The presence of these so-called harmonic peaks bolsters the theory that the Universe grew from a tiny subatomic region during a period of violent expansion a split second after the Big Bang.
"Just as the difference in harmonic content allows us to distinguish between a flute or trumpet playing the same note, so the details of the harmonic content imprinted in the CMB allow us to understand the detailed nature of the Universe," said Dr Barth Netterfield, of the University of Toronto in Canada......"Now, we see not just one, but three of these peaks and can tell not only which note is being played, but also what instrument is playing it - we can begin to hear in detail the music of creation....."With today's results we know for sure that the music is there and we can interpret it.....There is no doubt that by listening carefully, and in new ways, we will learn even more."
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 4 2013, 9:33pm)
|
|
|
KingTurgon
Rohan
Jan 4 2013, 9:45pm
Post #23 of 51
(3095 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Tolkien's Representation of the Trinity
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
One thought I have for all you Christians out there :)
Tolkien clearly shows that:
Eru=God the Father
The Flame Imperishable=The Holy Spirit
My question is, who represents Jesus? Nothing really jumps out at me in the Silmarillion even though I have been (and still am) a lifelong Catholic.
(This post was edited by KingTurgon on Jan 4 2013, 9:45pm)
|
|
|
Ardamírë
Valinor
Jan 4 2013, 10:12pm
Post #24 of 51
(3098 views)
Shortcut
|
The Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth is pretty obviously pointing towards Jesus entering as Jesus. Even as a Christian myself, I'm not sure I like the idea. I've never liked the idea of Middle-earth as a pre-earth history. The Athrabeth is a fantastic work, don't get me wrong, but I don't like when it connects too obviously with our world.
There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).
|
|
|
Eruonen
Half-elven
Jan 4 2013, 11:18pm
Post #25 of 51
(3089 views)
Shortcut
|
|
For JRRT the events of ME were prior to
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
any hint of the Christian story. ME societies were essentially pagan (his use of pre-Christian Anglo - Saxon, Norse, Finnish culture etc. etc ) However, he included the elements in his sub-creation for the later story to come about. Read Thomas Shippeys "The Road To Middle Earth" and many of the details will come into place.
Other books that discuss the theme...
The Gospel According to Tolkien - Ralph C Wood
Tolkien in Perspective - Greg Wright
There are many others...
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 4 2013, 11:20pm)
|
|
|
|
|
1
