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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Kili more important than Fili? *SPOILERS*

Rane
Bree

Jan 1 2013, 3:27am

Post #1 of 41 (3174 views)
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Kili more important than Fili? *SPOILERS* Can't Post

Hello, I'm new to the forum but not to the fandom.

Anyway...

So I've noticed that Kili seems to have more lines in The Hobbit than Fili, and more shots of him as well. Thorin also utilitises him more (yes, I understand he has a bow so that makes sense).

And if you've heard he might have some sort of romance with Tauriel.

Is Peter Jackson going to leave Fili in the dust when the death scene comes? He created a "hot" dwarf and he's going to show him off. I have no problem with fangirls thinking that, but I'm worried PJ is going to forget about Fili when the time comes.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jan 1 2013, 3:36am

Post #2 of 41 (2309 views)
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I don't think there's anything to fear [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no doubts that Thorin's death will far outshine either of theirs. I expect both of theirs to be short and sweet like Haldir's, and Thorin's to be longer and really pack a punch.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Jan 1 2013, 3:39am

Post #3 of 41 (2318 views)
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I started noticing this a while ago. [In reply to] Can't Post

It became pretty obvious when those banners came out-- Kili seemed to be featured in the front in nearly every scene. I mean, he's ok, but nothing great. Certainly he's no funnier or more appealing than any of the other dwarves (and that's not even mentioning his embarrassing complete lack of beard!). I guess they're doing this for the ladies, which seems kind of silly but whatevs. Give me more Balin, Bofur or Dwalin, or give Bombur a line for chrissakes!


Rane
Bree

Jan 1 2013, 3:44am

Post #4 of 41 (2317 views)
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For the ladies [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, he's obviously doing it for the ladies. Sure he's good looking but he doesn't need to become a secondary character or whatever. There's no changing his mind now though.


Joe-Mathews
Rivendell


Jan 1 2013, 4:24am

Post #5 of 41 (2204 views)
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Equal balance impossible [In reply to] Can't Post

While we want all 13 dwarves to have significant camera time and individual characters, it is impossible. Even if there were 13 films instead of three, there's no time. One thing I've learned very quickly from this board (and from Jackson's films) is that some people love certain characters, some was equality, some want Tolkien's dialog to stay with the same dwarf Tolkien gave it to, and some just want to replace Peter Jackson in the director's chair.

I thought Merry's character was horribly pushed aside in LotR. (Not to mention Fatty Bolger)

Even if all the dwarves' dialog were split in equal 1/13th shares, some of us would start counting the letters to see if that was balanced, too. And a few of us would translate each line into dwarvish to see if it balanced there, too.

Fili and Kili deserve equal time and equal deaths, but it won't happen. Even Tolkien paired or trio-ed the dwarves so he didn't even have to try to differentiate them all. Sadly, Fili and Kili are more a pair than two separate dwarves.

I think giving Kili the bulk of the lines will help the audience connect with the pair, rather than trying to divide the lines and emotional connection between both.

In my own way, I'm hoping PJ leaves some of the dwarves in the background. I like a little left to my imagination.

'There is some woe that lies upon you... Why will you not tell me more?'
'For that woe is past,' said Galadriel; 'and I would take what joy is here left, untroubled by memory. And maybe there is woe enough yet to come, thought still hope may seem bright.'


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 1 2013, 4:27am

Post #6 of 41 (2207 views)
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The truth is... [In reply to] Can't Post

even Tolkien didn't give all the dwarves equal time. Some of them have only a line or two in the whole book. I don't think it's practical to try for equality in the movies either. If we get some sense of the personalities of all of them by the end, that'll be great.

Silverlode






entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 1 2013, 4:33am

Post #7 of 41 (2168 views)
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It's hard to draw conclusions after only one movie. [In reply to] Can't Post

Those of us who have read the books know that future events will focus on different dwarves, and by the end of the three movies, I think all of them will have specific moments and plenty of lines to speak.


Kimtc
Rohan

Jan 1 2013, 4:36am

Post #8 of 41 (2157 views)
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Used to think movie would have fewer dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

I just assumed that when they finally made the movie that they would just cut some of them out for time and ease. Given how little many of them are developed in the book, this could have happened. So the fact that all 13 are there, for me, is gravy.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Jan 1 2013, 4:46am

Post #9 of 41 (2132 views)
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I didn't suggest giving all the dwarves equal time, [In reply to] Can't Post

just taking some of the time given to the least interesting dwarf with the most screen time(Kili), and giving it to one of the more interesting, well defined dwarves (Balin, Bofur, Dwalin, Dori). I don't even have anything against Kili really. He's fine i guess, and Aidan Turner is an appealing actor. It's just that there's not much to his character, and these other dwarves are much stronger characters, and screen time is valuable. Also, i get the feeling that he's being forced on us a bit for, as i said earlier, the ladies.


Mahtion
Rivendell

Jan 1 2013, 4:59am

Post #10 of 41 (2158 views)
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Kili just as good as other dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

Dwalin and Balin get plenty of screen time and Bofur has quite a few important scenes (toying with Bilbo, catching Bilbo when he tries to leave). Kili and Fili are far more important than say Oin or Bombur. We know the less featured dwarves will have their time to shine in the next two movies. Yet another reason why a trilogy was needed to flesh out the dwarves.

Kili and Fili need screen time in order to make their demise far more poignant. We the audience must have a vested interest so their deaths have meaning. Kili has plenty of character, he is a young dwarf with a royal heritage yearning to prove himself and make his uncle Thorin proud. He is relatable because he likes to jest and his banter with Bilbo moves along the story like at the camp when Thorin scolds him and when Bilbo wishes to save the ponies from the trolls. He may be a Legolas type fan girl magnet but he is far better characterized than Legolas in FOTR. He may need more development but that should happen through the next two films. Bofur is still my favorite dwarf and Kili is maybe my fourth so it's not as if I need him to be the best or anything. I just think its bias to see him as undeveloped or boring simply because he is taking time away from dwarves some consider more interesting.


RhodeCamelot
The Shire


Jan 1 2013, 5:26am

Post #11 of 41 (2114 views)
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Agreed! Not to mention quality > quantity [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In my own way, I'm hoping PJ leaves some of the dwarves in the background. I like a little left to my imagination.



#dftba


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 1 2013, 5:26am

Post #12 of 41 (2149 views)
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If you haven't read the book, spoilers below. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's obvious to me, a book-firster, that Kili and Fili would get more attention than the other dwarves.


Rane
Bree

Jan 1 2013, 5:38am

Post #13 of 41 (2110 views)
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Agreed *book spoilers again* [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote

Fili and Kili deserve equal time and equal deaths, but it won't happen. Even Tolkien paired or trio-ed the dwarves so he didn't even have to try to differentiate them all. Sadly, Fili and Kili are more a pair than two separate dwarves.



This is what I mean. They're both going to kick the bucket, I don't see why PJ can't give them more or less the same screen time. Then again, Legolas didn't get much time in Fellowship but he got more in the other two. I suppose there's hope but with Tauriel it will be pretty hard.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Jan 1 2013, 5:42am

Post #14 of 41 (2104 views)
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Well, i'm stating my opinion, [In reply to] Can't Post

which i guess is biased. But i don't have an agenda, and i'm not particularly anti-Kili. It's just that out of all the dwarves, he'd be toward the bottom of my list of most interesting or favorite dwarves (i actually like Fili quite a bit more). And i definitely believe that he was designed and pushed to the forefront as, at best, the "relatable" dwarf (looking the most human), and, at worst, the "hot" dwarf. But as it turns out, in the actual movie he's fine and not much more. If anything, i'd like Fili and Kili to be even more of a team, playing off each other more (which there are hints of in AUJ).

I'm really not wanting to see more of any particular dwarf (we all have our favorites), i just want to see more interaction between them. That way we get to know the individuals more, and we get more of a sense of them as a group. The Hobbit would've been a lot better if there'd been more of this sort of thing in the last third of the film, among all the action sequences, which to me felt rushed and personality-less (excepting Riddles in the Dark of course). They just didn't seem to talk to each other all that much, and when they did (more in the beginning than the end), it was great fun, and added a lot to the movie. I really hope there's more of that in the EE, and in the next two films.


Intergalactic Lawman
Rohan


Jan 1 2013, 6:43am

Post #15 of 41 (2191 views)
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I hate to be the one to point this out... [In reply to] Can't Post

***SPOILERS***

But maybe Kili doesn't die? Now before everyone calls me crazy -It is Peter Jackson we are talking about...

Thorin dies - Fili becomes king. Fili dies - Kili becomes king. Kili dies - Dain becomes king. That is how it is supposed to go right?

We all know what happens in the book, but will Jackson actually follow the book? You would think so...but he has already taken away important aspects of dains character. What if Dain is just the Dwarf Lord who rocks up with an army to "save the day" ?

God I hate to even think about this! Crazy


Mahtion
Rivendell

Jan 1 2013, 6:50am

Post #16 of 41 (2135 views)
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A dreaded possibility [In reply to] Can't Post

The thought did cross my mind and I would not welcome the change any more than PJ sparing Thorin. At this time it is impossible to know what is in store for the traditional characters. If Glorfindel can be replaced by Appendix limited Arwen and Haldir can die at Helms deep, then I suppose Kili could survive as legitimate heir to become king under the mountain.


dubulous
Rohan

Jan 1 2013, 8:56am

Post #17 of 41 (2055 views)
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I seriously doubt it [In reply to] Can't Post

And, based on what we already know of PJ's modus operandi, I'm not sure what would even make you fear such a thing? We know he has a tendency to change things, for sure, but none of those changes have ever altered the final outcome. Sometimes he chooses a different path to get where we want to end up, but in the end we still get there. Kili staying alive to succeed Thorin to the throne would be a change of a completely different nature than anything PJ has previously come up with.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 1 2013, 9:02am

Post #18 of 41 (2055 views)
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Not sure that is true, is it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Whenever Kili talks in the film, so does Fili.

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 1 2013, 9:05am

Post #19 of 41 (2043 views)
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So don't think about it... [In reply to] Can't Post

Wait and see.

Before the film came out we had months of people imagining the awful things Peter Jackson was going to do, and worrying about them, and talking themselves into a place where they were certain that this.... or that.... or some other totally self-generated piece of absurdity was going to ruin the film for them. And it didn't. They could have saved themselves all that angst.

Yes, of course Peter Jackson could do what you say, he could make a spaceship land in the middle of the battle and whisk them away, but why would he? Isn't it just as likely (much more, to my mind) that he is developing Fili and Kili in the way he is to increase the impact of what will happen to them? (Following the book, that is)

No point worrying over things that will probably never happen.


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Jan 1 2013, 1:16pm

Post #20 of 41 (2010 views)
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Ah, that is an interesting theory I must say!. The thing is of course.. *book spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

that by leaving Fili alive.. he'd be the heir to the throne, not Dáin hmm.
ah I see people have already remarked upon this hehe.

It is rather problematic. Well, the whole issue of Dáin inheriting the throne may be problematic film-wise.. (?) I dunno

--I'm a victim of Bifurcation--
__________________________________________

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
__________________________________________


(This post was edited by Xanaseb on Jan 1 2013, 1:22pm)


carrioncrow
Lorien

Jan 1 2013, 2:49pm

Post #21 of 41 (1927 views)
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Grouping [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems the screenplay has roughly grouped the dwarves.

1) Thorin
2) the "Veterans" - represented mostly by Balin in terms of dialogue but including others shown in the battle flashback: Dwalin, Oin, Gloin and maybe Bifur
3) the "Rookies" - Fili & Kili with Kili (serving as obvious analogue to Thorin) getting the focus of Film One.
4) the "Island of Misfit Toys" - with Bofur taking the lead (in terms of dialogue) for Bombur, Ori, Dori & Nori. We haven't seen their backstory yet.

This framework relieves the movies of having to have a fully developed story arc for each dwarf but allows us to get to know each of them as individuals and their relationships with each other.

If we are going to see Gimli at Bo5A (is that confirmed?) then that will obviously provide the occasion for Oin and Gloin to have a few interesting scenes.


(This post was edited by carrioncrow on Jan 1 2013, 2:55pm)


carrioncrow
Lorien

Jan 1 2013, 2:58pm

Post #22 of 41 (1963 views)
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spoiler alert [In reply to] Can't Post

The REASON we are getting a healthy dose of KILI is BECAUSE he dies (and we, the audience, will need to be invested in his life). duh.


(This post was edited by carrioncrow on Jan 1 2013, 3:04pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 1 2013, 4:33pm

Post #23 of 41 (1921 views)
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Why do you think Kili is the least interesting? [In reply to] Can't Post

He and Fili were my favourite dwarves long ago, before I'd heard of Peter Jackson or imagined there would ever be a film. I was a child when I read the book so I singled them out because they were the youngest and that was important to me then.

If anyone here had been asked about the dwarves before the casting was announced I don't believe Kili would have been singled out as 'the least interesting' or a weaker character. In the book he's more interesting than some of the others, who are really no more than names. At least we know he's one of the youngest dwarves, sharp-eyed and good with a bow, and Thorin's nephew - and we know what happens to him at the end.

Far as I can see, the anti-Kili feeling that keeps cropping up around here is nothing more than a reaction to the fact that a young and relatively good-looking actor was cast to play the part. Same thing happened with Legolas. The perception that this was done 'to please the ladies' (how patronising is that!) is enough to provoke this backlash among those who aren't ladies and don't want to be seen as such.... It has nothing to do with the character in the book or in the film, or with the way the actor plays it.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Jan 1 2013, 5:01pm

Post #24 of 41 (1880 views)
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That's hard to say. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just don't find him very funny or compelling, and he doesn't seem very dwarf-like to me. Again, i don't hate him, i just don't find him deserving of so much screen time. But if others like him, that's cool-- he doesn't ruin the movie for me or anything.

I'll admit that, going into the movie, he was always my least favorite. I've always thought (as have many, many others) that he looks nothing like a dwarf, more like a Ranger from the north, and was obviously cast and designed to appeal to a certain demographic, which i guess is fine and to be expected. And i don't think it's just because he's a good looking guy. There are other good-looking dwarves, and i never had a problem with them, because they at least look more dwarf-like. Anyway, once the movie came out, but before i saw it, i saw the interviews with the actors, and Aidan Turner seemed like an alright, appealing guy. So i thought maybe Kili won't be so bad-- and he's not. He's just nothing special, but it seems the filmmakers think we should think so. That's the only thing i'm questioning here.

Really, it's no big deal. I don't even really see it as a flaw, and the film, while really good, has much bigger problems.

I'll just keep watching it, and re-watching it, like i have with the previous trilogy, and he'll just become a part of the fabric of these great films.


glor
Rohan

Jan 1 2013, 5:50pm

Post #25 of 41 (1880 views)
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Practical problem perhaps? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
So I've noticed that Kili seems to have more lines in The Hobbit than Fili, and more shots of him as well



Perhaps the fact that Kili appears more prominent in AUJ is one of practicality and necessity caused by Robert Kazinsky's (the original Fili) departure after filming had started?
Considering that a month of dwarf filming had been done when Kazinsky left, Dean O'Gorman then stepped in and had an intensive dwarf training course before he could start on set. Fili may just have 'less' screen time in AUJ because PJ had less set time with Gorman and had to even edit out Kazinsky from some of the scenes..

... the prominence of Kili has probably got a lot more to do with an actor being replaced during the shoot, than writing and directorial decisions regarding the hotness of actors, Kazinsky is as relatively 'hot' as Turner (if you are into those things)





Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 1 2013, 7:02pm

Post #26 of 41 (682 views)
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Agree with this +1// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jan 1 2013, 7:48pm

Post #27 of 41 (712 views)
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That's pretty much my feelings on the character... [In reply to] Can't Post

Particularly with your point about how the film makers have pushed Turner's character at us left, right and centre in the marketing. It's interesting in the Weta Chronicles how they talk about the design decisions they made:


Quote

"Aiden Turner, who was cast as Kili, has really fine features. To cover him up with prosthetics just wasn't going to work. We tried subtle prosthetic noses and foreheads to try and square him up, like we imagined a Dwarf might look, but they just kept getting smaller and smaller with every version. Peter Fran and Philippa really wanted to retain his handsmome looks, so the less we put on his face, the better. It was the same story with the tatooes and facial hair." Lindsey Crummett, (Weta Workshop Designer)

"Fili and Kili, being the youngest and handsomest, were our sexy Dwarves, but it was a challenge to keep them that way while still trying to transform them into what people expect a Dwarf to look like. We went through many refinements for Kili. We found that too much prosthetic on his brow risked making him look thuggish, and making his nose bigger could be clownish. He had to be hunky but fresh-faced. We also made beards for everyone, but t came down to letting him grow his own because it was to be very short." Peter King (Make-up nd Hair Designer.)



I guess for me Fili works better because he has a more characterful face, and manages to look Dwarvish with the braids and short beard, whilst retaining boyish good looks and that cheeky grin, where as Turner has not been given any Dwarvish embellishments to his features or hair and simply relies on the body padding and costume, and still comes off looking like an erstwhile teenage Aragorn. As many have commented previouslt, his own curly black hair and thick beard as seen in the early press conferences would have made a more realistic Dwarf, but considering it made him look too close in age to RA's Thorin, that's probably why they rejected his natural look.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






(This post was edited by Eleniel on Jan 1 2013, 7:49pm)


CathrineB
Rohan


Jan 1 2013, 8:20pm

Post #28 of 41 (689 views)
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Oh these two... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have so many feelings and opinions about these two guys because Fili and Kili has been my two favorite dwarves since I read the book for the first time in 2002-ish. At the same time I NEVER really had a mental image of them. I couldn't really picture them clearly so I'm just happy that they now have a face, but even more because I think both Dean and Aidan are good actors though I'm a little more known with Aidan from Being Human. He's a damn fine actor. Acting wise that is. He is so brilliant with emotions and humor. It makes me wonder if that's another reason why he was cast. To make their end even much of a heartbreaker because the actor can pull it off. I wish so much that the sexy dwarf thing wouldn't be so in focus with the two of them because of those reasons.

That being said I hope we see more of them working together in the following movies too. I love Fili just as much as I love Kili. I love their relationship and how it's done in the movie.
Though there is no doubt why these two are pulled further in front of other dwarves considering what happens to them. We need to get invested in them for their end to have an effect on us.

As for whether one or both will live, I doubt it. I doubt it so hard because Peter LOVES to screw with his fans lol. He'll make us love'em and take them out until our heart bleeds. He LOVES this. The heartbreaking, deep moments. So I fully believe they will die. Thorin probably - most likely more up front than them of course, but yeah. They're going to die and we're going to cry and Peter will love it.


(This post was edited by CathrineB on Jan 1 2013, 8:22pm)


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Jan 1 2013, 8:40pm

Post #29 of 41 (666 views)
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Well said. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I guess for me Fili works better because he has a more characterful face, and manages to look Dwarvish with the braids and short beard, whilst retaining boyish good looks and that cheeky grin, where as Turner has not been given any Dwarvish embellishments to his features or hair and simply relies on the body padding and costume, and still comes off looking like an erstwhile teenage Aragorn. As many have commented previouslt, his own curly black hair and thick beard as seen in the early press conferences would have made a more realistic Dwarf, but considering it made him look too close in age to RA's Thorin, that's probably why they rejected his natural look.


I couldn't agree more on Fili, whom i immediately liked back when the first dwarf images surfaced. His features and characteristics look sufficiently dwarvish, but with a boyish, rakish charm, while still being ruggedly handsome, which they were obviously going for.

As far as those quotes from the Weta Chronicles book, that's why i always mentioned casting along with design in the development of the Kili character. I don't want to use the word miscast, but they did go a certain direction when they cast him, a decidedly non-dwarvish direction, and that affected how that character turned out. But it seems that Kili has plenty of fans, so i guess it can't be called a mistake. By my view, though, they were spot on with all the other dwarves (well, Thorin's too young, but whatever). But Kili's passable as he is, and, to paraphrase Meat Loaf... 12 out of 13 ain't bad.


marillaraina
Rohan

Jan 1 2013, 10:06pm

Post #30 of 41 (630 views)
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:) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
While we want all 13 dwarves to have significant camera time and individual characters, it is impossible. Even if there were 13 films instead of three, there's no time. One thing I've learned very quickly from this board (and from Jackson's films) is that some people love certain characters, some was equality, some want Tolkien's dialog to stay with the same dwarf Tolkien gave it to, and some just want to replace Peter Jackson in the director's chair.

I thought Merry's character was horribly pushed aside in LotR. (Not to mention Fatty Bolger)

Even if all the dwarves' dialog were split in equal 1/13th shares, some of us would start counting the letters to see if that was balanced, too. And a few of us would translate each line into dwarvish to see if it balanced there, too.

Fili and Kili deserve equal time and equal deaths, but it won't happen. Even Tolkien paired or trio-ed the dwarves so he didn't even have to try to differentiate them all. Sadly, Fili and Kili are more a pair than two separate dwarves.

I think giving Kili the bulk of the lines will help the audience connect with the pair, rather than trying to divide the lines and emotional connection between both.

In my own way, I'm hoping PJ leaves some of the dwarves in the background. I like a little left to my imagination.


I think it's important to remember that Fili's actor changed at the very last minute, I think it was a month or at least a few weeks into the filming. It's entirely likely that where some smaller bits of characterization that were not re-filmed due to time and filming restrictions. As it is there are a few scenes where you can tell it's Rob Kazinsky.

Besides which IMO as you say, choosing one of them to focus on actually increased the emotional connection to the pair instead of splitting the same amount of dialogue and time between two characters. Fili benefits from his connection to Kili, from what I've seen around that part of fandom that's coming up, they are considered still considered a pair.

Kili does most of the work, Fili reaps half the benefits. LOL

And anyway Turner may be nice to look at, but it's not like he can't act. He's a really good actor, has a very expressive face and IMO managed to do a lot with what he was given, which truly was actually not that much. But between the writing and the acting a definite and likeable, imo, personality emerged. And it ultimately reflected on Fili as well because if Kili isn't by Thorin then he's generally by Fili.

I think when it comes to their deaths though, they will have equal deaths, precisely for that reason. Perhaps people might feel a bit more for Kili if he's had a bit more previous development, but utlimately it's going to be the deaths of both and they are going to looked upon as a pair and it's going to be equally tragic and I believe equal screen time(which isn't going to be that much, imo, Thorin's death is the biggie, Kili and Fili's deaths are there to hammer home the tragedy of what has occurred).


marillaraina
Rohan

Jan 1 2013, 10:47pm

Post #31 of 41 (687 views)
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:) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
just taking some of the time given to the least interesting dwarf with the most screen time(Kili), and giving it to one of the more interesting, well defined dwarves (Balin, Bofur, Dwalin, Dori). I don't even have anything against Kili really. He's fine i guess, and Aidan Turner is an appealing actor. It's just that there's not much to his character, and these other dwarves are much stronger characters, and screen time is valuable. Also, i get the feeling that he's being forced on us a bit for, as i said earlier, the ladies.


How do you figure there is not much to his character? It sounds like the character is being judged based on how he looks. How are Dwalin, Bofur and Dori more "defined and interesting"?

As well part of the whole point of the younger dwarves and I think perhaps Kili's role in particular is that he IS young and he is defining himself. This quest is going to be of central importance to his defining of himself. How are characters who have already defined themselves more interesting than the story of a character who hasn't? I'm not saying they are less interesting but I fail to see how they are more interesting as a story in a film.

As it is with Kili we see a lot of points that can come up for development in later films. For one there is the obvious, his maturity - experiencing real life danger and hardship. Seeing how these things change him or how he handles various situations.

He seems to idolize Thorin, it's like he always wants to be of use to him. That seems to be why he's always trying to be near him - like "here I am, call on me!!".

On the other hand he doesn't have a lot of Thorin's prejudices(which Thorin has for his own reasons, often for what are very understandable reasons), he's open, he's friendly. In some ways he seems to kind of identify with Bilbo, at the very least he seems to like him and is somewhat protective of him.

And it makes sense, Bilbo is new to this, well so is Kili to a certain extent. He may be a trained fighter(and from what we see a good one considering what is probably lack of " real world" experience), but otherwise he's as new, in his own way, to adventuring as Bilbo is. He was quite happy to see Bilbo had returned after the Goblin incident.

As well it's likely he'll be more quick to warm to the elves, and not just because Tauriel is "hot". :D If that Lego set is anything to go by she'll save his life, so sure she's beautiful, but she's also brave and an example that run's counter to Thorin's example of the elves leaving them in their time of need.(Not saying it negates it, but it shows it isn't cut and dry "all elves are the same").

And this actually is not counter to the book - Kili and Fili were the only ones(besides I think Bombur?) who were said to not agree with Thorin's approach to the whole sharing of the wealth thing. All of this actually helps set that up. In the book it wasn't stated if their disagreement was spoken out loud but it's likely it will be in the film.

And yet they die for Thorin, they die trying to protect him.

There is plenty to Kili's character and a part of that is the character discovering who he is, discovering his potential, just in time to die for it. That makes for a pretty heartbreaking character arc when you think about it.

And it compounds the tragedy of Thorin's arc, Kili and Fili, so promising, so much potential for greatness themselves and they die at least in part because Thorin allowed himself to be taken away from reason.


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jan 1 2013, 10:54pm)


CathrineB
Rohan


Jan 1 2013, 11:12pm

Post #32 of 41 (639 views)
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Holy wow THAT was an amazing post!! *applause* [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
just taking some of the time given to the least interesting dwarf with the most screen time(Kili), and giving it to one of the more interesting, well defined dwarves (Balin, Bofur, Dwalin, Dori). I don't even have anything against Kili really. He's fine i guess, and Aidan Turner is an appealing actor. It's just that there's not much to his character, and these other dwarves are much stronger characters, and screen time is valuable. Also, i get the feeling that he's being forced on us a bit for, as i said earlier, the ladies.


How do you figure there is not much to his character? It sounds like the character is being judged based on how he looks. How are Dwalin, Bofur and Dori more "defined and interesting"?

As well part of the whole point of the younger dwarves and I think perhaps Kili's role in particular is that he IS young and he is defining himself. This quest is going to be of central importance to his defining of himself. How are characters who have already defined themselves more interesting than the story of a character who hasn't? I'm not saying they are less interesting but I fail to see how they are more interesting as a story in a film.

As it is with Kili we see a lot of points that can come up for development in later films. For one there is the obvious, his maturity - experiencing real life danger and hardship. Seeing how these things change him or how he handles various situations.

He seems to idolize Thorin, it's like he always wants to be of use to him. That seems to be why he's always trying to be near him - like "here I am, call on me!!".

On the other hand he doesn't have a lot of Thorin's prejudices(which Thorin has for his own reasons, often for what are very understandable reasons), he's open, he's friendly. In some ways he seems to kind of identify with Bilbo, at the very least he seems to like him and is somewhat protective of him.

And it makes sense, Bilbo is new to this, well so is Kili to a certain extent. He may be a trained fighter(and from what we see a good one considering what is probably lack of " real world" experience), but otherwise he's as new, in his own way, to adventuring as Bilbo is. He was quite happy to see Bilbo had returned after the Goblin incident.

As well it's likely he'll be more quick to warm to the elves, and not just because Tauriel is "hot". :D If that Lego set is anything to go by she'll save his life, so sure she's beautiful, but she's also brave and an example that run's counter to Thorin's example of the elves leaving them in their time of need.(Not saying it negates it, but it shows it isn't cut and dry "all elves are the same").

And this actually is not counter to the book - Kili and Fili were the only ones(besides I think Bombur?) who were said to not agree with Thorin's approach to the whole sharing of the wealth thing. All of this actually helps set that up. In the book it wasn't stated if their disagreement was spoken out loud but it's likely it will be in the film.

And yet they die for Thorin, they die trying to protect him.

There is plenty to Kili's character and a part of that is the character discovering who he is, discovering his potential, just in time to die for it. That makes for a pretty heartbreaking character arc when you think about it.

And it compounds the tragedy of Thorin's arc, Kili and Fili, so promising, so much potential for greatness themselves and they die at least in part because Thorin allowed himself to be taken away from reason.



sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Jan 1 2013, 11:36pm

Post #33 of 41 (611 views)
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All that sounds great, [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm just not seeing any of that up on the screen.

All i'm saying is that out of all the dwarves, he's the least interesting *to me*, and my least favorite; and that i question the motivations behind how PJ and Co. chose to bring him to the screen and how that affected the character we see up there. That's all. He's not terrible or anything; in fact, he's perfectly adequate-- better than i thought he'd be, actually. I just happen to think that all the other dwarves were pulled off better, either visually or through characterization.

Considering what we could have gotten, i think that the dwarves are overall a huge success, and one of my favorite parts of the film.

Now i think i'm done talking about Kili!


marillaraina
Rohan

Jan 1 2013, 11:49pm

Post #34 of 41 (599 views)
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;) [In reply to] Can't Post


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I'm just not seeing any of that up on the screen.

All i'm saying is that out of all the dwarves, he's the least interesting *to me*, and my least favorite; and that i question the motivations behind how PJ and Co. chose to bring him to the screen and how that affected the character we see up there. That's all. He's not terrible or anything; in fact, he's perfectly adequate-- better than i thought he'd be, actually. I just happen to think that all the other dwarves were pulled off better, either visually or through characterization.

Considering what we could have gotten, i think that the dwarves are overall a huge success, and one of my favorite parts of the film.

Now i think i'm done talking about Kili!


That's funny. I saw it up on screen(aside from the stuff that talks about what it possibly means for future films, which I saw of course in my crystal ball). :) Shame you didn't, it was good stuff. LOL


Also something I thought about after my other post couldn't be edited anymore. PJ and Co seem to have chosen one dwarf out of each dwarf grouping to characterize more strongly.

Balin and Dwalin - he characterized(in keeping with the book) Balin most strongly.

Bofur, Bifur, Bombur - he characterized Bofur most strongly(played by the most recognizable actor, who also is relatively normal looking compared to his brother and cousin).

Ori, Nori, Dori - tough one because Ori did get a bit, probably due to his erm...role...in LOTR but seemed like Dori got the most lines and characterization.

Oin and Gloin? You know I think Oin was actually a bit stronger but I don't think there was a big different.

And with Kili and Fili, Kili was more strongly characterized. And he is Thorin's nephew and he does die - so it makes sense that he'd be one of the top ones overall.

It's hardly like it is a situation where only Kili was singled out.

As for the other "motivations" Jackson was apparently a fan of Aidan's show, Being Human, so maybe his reasons for "forcing him on you" are far more "mundane" and he simply really likes him as an actor and feels he can pull off something with the character, a theme of the plot, Jackson wants pulled off?


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jan 1 2013, 11:59pm)


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Jan 2 2013, 12:49am

Post #35 of 41 (604 views)
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No, Kili was not singled out. [In reply to] Can't Post

Aside from Thorin, we got a lot of Balin and Bofur (my personal fave). And we got plenty of memorable moments from Dwalin, Fili and Ori as well. So it's not like i think Kili was stealing the spotlight or anything, and if i gave that impression i didn't mean to.

I'm really hoping the next film has a little more time to stretch it's legs a bit, and we get more time with *all* the dwarves.


Rane
Bree

Jan 2 2013, 3:20am

Post #36 of 41 (572 views)
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Well *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

Fili is going to die too.

I never meant to imply that Kili and Fili get more screen time than any other dwarf. I was just wondering if Peter Jackson is making Kili his darling out of the brothers.

But others have said that Fili's actor was changed at the last second, so now it does make more sense that Kili is the more prominent of the two, for now at least.

I don't want to start a flame war, I never did. I think It's sweet of Kili to be so concerned about his uncle's approval.


(This post was edited by Rane on Jan 2 2013, 3:20am)


marillaraina
Rohan

Jan 2 2013, 4:08am

Post #37 of 41 (563 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post


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Fili is going to die too.

I never meant to imply that Kili and Fili get more screen time than any other dwarf. I was just wondering if Peter Jackson is making Kili his darling out of the brothers.

But others have said that Fili's actor was changed at the last second, so now it does make more sense that Kili is the more prominent of the two, for now at least.

I don't want to start a flame war, I never did. I think It's sweet of Kili to be so concerned about his uncle's approval.



LOL I don't think any flame wars are going to start. :)

Yes he is going to die too and that's why I said I fully believe his death scene is going to have as much attention as Kili's. :)

In fact I'm pretty sure they'll probably die in the same scene, I don't have any proof of that but it just seems like dramatically it would make the most sense seeing as they both fall defending Thorin. Honestly in the film they are almost always together, they are rarely far from each other.

We see them sitting next to each other, sleeping next to each other, eating next to each other, riding next to each other, they share the same tree at the end and they share the same eagle. They are often given the same duties(like watch the ponies), they are the ones used to highlight the drama of the Stone Giants scene and make it more than just a special effects scene(even if some people seem to miss the "human...erm...dwarven element":)), when they are pulled apart as Fili calls to Kili and Kili looks devastated.

But Kili is described in one of those movie tie in books as the more "irrepressible" one and a bit rebellious(which I think is something that we'll likely see start to come out in the next film), so I imagine whatever else comes into it and the reasons for it, etc he might end up with more face time based on his personality traits, personality traits which let's face it, were probably settled on before they'd even cast the actor.


Kimtc
Rohan

Jan 2 2013, 5:03am

Post #38 of 41 (542 views)
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The non-reader reaction will be interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

Usually someone who didn't read a book before a movie reads it after, but many a casual reader doesn't get too far into the Hobbit (the songs usually stop them). So I suspect large numbers will be surprised; when Boromir died I had friends who couldn't believe it. And that was at the end of just one movie. I can hear them coming out of the theatre, if they aren't crying, which I am practically doing and I have no idea how it will play out onscreen (as I said earlier, for me in the book it's more of a "WTF?" moment).


Owain
Tol Eressea


Jan 2 2013, 5:13am

Post #39 of 41 (539 views)
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Welcome to tORN! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think when it is all said in done... or when we've all gone there and back again... we will be able to tell what weight all of the characters will have been provided, no?

I think Kili definitely has the edge right now between Fili and Kili... which is true for some of the others in the company as well.

Thorin, Balin, and Bifur all had really key moments (with Thorin obviously having the lion's share) in this first act. I think with Beorn's Hall, Mirkwood, the Elven King's Dungeons, Barrells, LakeTown, and of course the Lonely Mountain... that there is a lot of room to expand all of the Dwarves characters from the opening act in this next act, The Desolation of Smaug.

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jan 2 2013, 8:38am

Post #40 of 41 (512 views)
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Patience... [In reply to] Can't Post

Referring back to the Sibley Official Movie Guide thread

I did quote Philppa Boyens on how they decided to feature the Dwarves:


Quote

Clearly writing for so many characters, as individuals and as a Company, was a challenge. "What we didn't want to do", says Philippa, "was overload the film with too much information upfront. When you read Tolkien's books you see that he reveals his characters gradually in the telling of the story so we tried to follow his lead. Rather than panic about having thirteen Dwarves and the audience needing to know all about them, we allowed them to become known to us as they become known to Bilbo."




"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Aelfan
Registered User


Jan 2 2013, 7:28pm

Post #41 of 41 (529 views)
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For Kili [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd say I'm on the pro-Kili side here. I am very aware of the estrogen-pumping aspect of the character as my 17-year old daughter makes little squeeling noises when I mention him; but the death of Fili and Kili as they protect their mother's brother with their own bodies is perhaps the most epic part of the whole story, when the child's tale that the Hobbit really was makes a nod to Tolkien's professional subject matter like Maldon and Beowulf; and the epic subject matter that was already the background to the story. I suspect that PJ's greatest artistic challenge will be to get their end in the battle of Five Armies perfectly done. It will be the conclusion of the story, like when the Ring went down Mount Doom. Kili, as the youngest and most inexperienced dwarf, is the character that carries us toward that conclusion in a way that even Bilbo doesn't.


(This post was edited by Aelfan on Jan 2 2013, 7:31pm)

 
 

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