|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lausus
Bree
Nov 10 2012, 8:40pm
Post #1 of 30
(1522 views)
Shortcut
|
|
PJ's The Hobbit: 3 movies, 6 tales
|
Can't Post
|
|
So I'm beginning to look at each upcoming Hobbit movie as split in two:
On the one hand we will have the familiar, beloved story we are all such big fans of. I am more optimistic than usual that Peter and team have stayed very close to the words as written by Tolkien, maybe (hopefully?) more-so than in LotR.
On the other hand we have all the fleshed out appendices material, orc-hunters, and Witch-king story. I think PJ has likely used the source to create what he thinks will be as entertaining, cool, and exciting as possible regardless of what fans may think, to a small degree. This is his chance to write his own story, make his own original movie, alongside the adaptation.
I'm excited for both these sides. I'll know the ending of the first one, but be extremely excited for every second of one of my favorite stories of all time. I'll be completely surprised, no doubt, by the other as a completely new story of mystery and adventure unfolds. Although, I fear I will be doing a lot of head-shaking and wondering why such-and-such was included instead of fleshing out more of Tolkien's writing when it comes to those scenes.
Is anyone else looking at the films through this kind of lens?
|
|
|
Hanzkaz
Rohan
Nov 10 2012, 9:11pm
Post #2 of 30
(748 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I'm looking forward to the movies -
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
- and a bit wary at the same time.
Concerning original material, I found Elrond's prophecy in the LOTR movies to be impressive . Then again, PJ and Co did come up with the Gandalf / Witch King confrontation in ROTF:EE, which is a bit worrying.
|
|
|
Sinister71
Tol Eressea
Nov 11 2012, 2:11am
Post #3 of 30
(605 views)
Shortcut
|
have you even read the appendices? there are maybe and its a high estimate at that, there are maybe 12 pages in this so called 125 pages of appendices that even vaguely have anything at all to do with the events around or related to the hobbit. There are no hunter orcs, there are no Nazgul in tombs, no morgul blades, no descriptive material of what the White Council did, none of this stuff is in the appendices
I guess I don't share your enthusiasm for having so much made up, no where, even in the same neighborhood as Tolkien, material being put into a film simply called the Hobbit. Don't get me wrong, I agree they will surely be entertaining but if you believe any of it is based on Tolkien's appendices you have bought into the false misleading information being spread about the films. and YES I know The Hobbit as it was written will be in these films be it an altered version. And I am sure it will be entertaining, but more of an OTT spectacle than something comparable to Tolkien or the namesake of the book which these films are claiming to be based on.
There are plenty of interesting things going on in the films and the best stuff I have seen thus far is the stuff that has remained as close to what Tolkien wrote IMO . I guess if I didn't care and was just excited to see a middle earth film with doses of the Hobbit book on steroids sprinkled throughout it I would be overjoyed. For the record..I am by no means a purist, and would accept change where there is no other option or that made sense in telling the story of Bilbo's adventure. But these needless additions do nothing other than add spectacle and chaos into a great story that has nothing to do with Sauron and HIS ring, where Bolg and Azog were never mentioned to be in League with Sauron or come from Dol Guldur instead of being from the Misty mountains, where the ring was but a humble magic ring used as a burglers tool by Bilbo and nothing more...
If he wanted to tell an original tale he should have done so without bringing the Hobbit into it. Hopefully when I see the films I'll be proven wrong, but at this point I don't see these films as the Hobbit as much as I see them more about middle earth and a bunch of stuff not needed to tell Bilbo's tale 
|
|
|
Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor
Nov 11 2012, 2:22am
Post #4 of 30
(592 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I just read Unfinished Tales again
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
And I have to say that based on the story rumors we have seen and heard thus far, there are things in there that PJ is almost certainly drawing inspiration from.
I wonder if he might be skirting the edge of legality here.
|
|
|
Sinister71
Tol Eressea
Nov 11 2012, 2:29am
Post #5 of 30
(571 views)
Shortcut
|
|
but again thats unfinished tales
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
something PJ has no rights to be using... Makes me wonder if Christopher Tolkien has his lawyers on speed dial
|
|
|
Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
Nov 11 2012, 2:40am
Post #6 of 30
(557 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Rather more as a tale with a new frame.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Showing the wider events surrounding Bilbo's experiences. And of course, as always, a response rather than a representation.
LR
|
|
|
Tim
Tol Eressea
Nov 11 2012, 3:13am
Post #7 of 30
(537 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Yes it's going to be interesting
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
One of the things I used to enjoy doing was going over to The Encyclopedia of Arda and reading the movie comparison guides they wrote up there.
In general PJ stuck close enough to the book to satisfy me, so he'll probably do the same with The Hobbit. And now we get to see where Gandalf wanders off to when he's not with the dwarves. Bwahahahahahaha!
-Tim came by. Tim! If you had heard only a quarter of what I have heard about him, and I have only heard very little of all there is to hear, you would be prepared for any sort of remarkable tale.
(This post was edited by Tim on Nov 11 2012, 3:13am)
|
|
|
Elutherian
Rohan
Nov 11 2012, 3:28am
Post #8 of 30
(573 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Didn't the Gandalf/Witchking confrontation occur in the book?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I swear I remember reading it.
*pulls out copy of ROTK*
The Grey Pilgrim, they once called me. Three hundred lives of men I walked this earth, and now I have no time...
|
|
|
Tim
Tol Eressea
Nov 11 2012, 3:37am
Post #9 of 30
(552 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The witch king meets Gandalf at the gates of Minis Tirith I believe
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But then is called away by the arrival of Rohan... so there's no blatant clash of power between them.
-Tim came by. Tim! If you had heard only a quarter of what I have heard about him, and I have only heard very little of all there is to hear, you would be prepared for any sort of remarkable tale.
|
|
|
Elutherian
Rohan
Nov 11 2012, 3:44am
Post #10 of 30
(561 views)
Shortcut
|
The Witchking confronts Gandalf, says pretty much the same thing as in the film, his sword catches fire(again, just like in the film) and Rohan's arrival interrupts him. The only difference is Gandalf's staff breaking.
The Grey Pilgrim, they once called me. Three hundred lives of men I walked this earth, and now I have no time...
|
|
|
Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor
Nov 11 2012, 3:45am
Post #11 of 30
(544 views)
Shortcut
|
No idea why it wasn't translated as per the book.
|
|
|
Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor
Nov 11 2012, 3:46am
Post #12 of 30
(539 views)
Shortcut
|
In the book, he's riding a horse, and confronts Gandalf at the front gate.
|
|
|
Elutherian
Rohan
Nov 11 2012, 3:47am
Post #13 of 30
(560 views)
Shortcut
|
That's basically what I'm seeing here.
The Grey Pilgrim, they once called me. Three hundred lives of men I walked this earth, and now I have no time...
|
|
|
Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor
Nov 11 2012, 3:50am
Post #14 of 30
(528 views)
Shortcut
|
In the book, he enters after the massive gates are shattered, and confronts a stoic Gandalf in an epic standoff.
In the film, he flies onto the scene while Gandalf and Pippin are racing up a nondescript side street...
The book's version is much cooler, IMO.
|
|
|
Elutherian
Rohan
Nov 11 2012, 3:53am
Post #15 of 30
(525 views)
Shortcut
|
You've got horse vs. Mordor pterodactyl from hell, and you go with horse.
If you say so man.
The Grey Pilgrim, they once called me. Three hundred lives of men I walked this earth, and now I have no time...
|
|
|
Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor
Nov 11 2012, 4:26am
Post #16 of 30
(514 views)
Shortcut
|
It is about the cinematic moment. Gandalf, waiting stoically to greet the herald of evil at the broken gate, vs. Gandalf being surprised by a herald of evil while riding down a nondescript street.
|
|
|
Elutherian
Rohan
Nov 11 2012, 5:02am
Post #17 of 30
(544 views)
Shortcut
|
|
That's why PJ gave him some badass lines...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
"Go back to the abyss! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your master!"
I'm honestly surprised Tolkien didn't write that.
The Grey Pilgrim, they once called me. Three hundred lives of men I walked this earth, and now I have no time...
|
|
|
Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor
Nov 11 2012, 6:41am
Post #18 of 30
(500 views)
Shortcut
|
In the film, it is almost a throwaway moment that happens all of a sudden. In the book, there is an awesome build up to the destruction of the gate, followed by the epic confrontation between the emissary of the Valar, and the emissary of Sauron.
Could have been cinematic gold. Instead, the film version didn't even make the theatrical cut, and most people dislike the version we got in the EE...
How PJ messed this one up is beyond me.
(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Nov 11 2012, 6:42am)
|
|
|
Fardragon
Rohan
Nov 11 2012, 10:44am
Post #19 of 30
(462 views)
Shortcut
|
IMO, the arrival of Rohan in the nick of time is Gandalf's power.
Black Bishop to Minas Tirith: Check
White Knight takes Black Bishop
Anyway, this scene is well done in the BBC radio adaptation, with Grond playing a key part. "Again!"
A Far Dragon is the best kind...
|
|
|
Hanzkaz
Rohan
Nov 11 2012, 12:07pm
Post #20 of 30
(414 views)
Shortcut
|
- that the book version of the Witch King was less of a threat to Gandalf than the film version was.
Book Gandalf was an immortal Maia who outclassed the Witch King who was basically an puppet wraith of Sauron.
We know the Witch King was wary of Elves, so it stands to reason he'd be cautious around a Maia.
Personally I think the only real power stronger than Gandalf amongst the Dark forces was Sauron himself.
|
|
|
Fardragon
Rohan
Nov 11 2012, 12:12pm
Post #21 of 30
(408 views)
Shortcut
|
Gandalf, in specific reference to the Witch King, says "against some, I have yet to be tested", suggesting that they are a fairly even match. Gandalf wins by bring up his knight, but not a forgone conclusion.
Gandalf is a Maia, but this isn't in the main body text of LotR, and it's worth noting that Maia aren't unkillable.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...
|
|
|
totoro
Lorien
Nov 11 2012, 8:34pm
Post #22 of 30
(353 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I think using Unfinished Tales is a really interesting copyright issue
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
In ME, there are certain things that happen. Gandalf goes off to do those certain things during TH. Those certain things are described in a different book to which PJ and co have no rights. So, does PJ have some "inherent" right to take some of what is known to have happened to at least make his description similar? It would make for an interesting case if he actually had to make up the events without peeking. This has nothing to do with "Fair Use" which allows you to copy small portions of text or whatever for use in educational settings, and some other limited use. It's almost like in-story fair use.
|
|
|
jtarkey
Rohan
Nov 11 2012, 10:58pm
Post #23 of 30
(345 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I think PJ and Co. have the upper hand legally here...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I could be mistaken, but I always thought there were a hand full of things used in the LOTR films that were not in the book. I always wondered how they got away with showing Bilbo finding the ring when they didn't have the rights to The Hobbit at the time.
It seems like, even if an idea is vaguely alluded to in the book, then they can expand on it from other writings, even if they aren't really allowed to. I could be totally wrong because I have no clue what the rules of copyright really are. It just seems to me that there are very sly ways to include things they aren't allowed to include.
"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"
|
|
|
Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens
Nov 11 2012, 11:13pm
Post #24 of 30
(323 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I think the "ring" example is not entirely similar.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
As LOTR discusses Bilbo finding the ring too.
I think were Jackson to use characters, places or dialogue from the UT/Sil etc which appears nowhere in LOTR/TH then that would be a clear breach.
I think that the use of ideas or inspiration would be more difficult to attribute directly but that will be on a spectrum. E.g. Let's say that Azog is somehow an Orc wight or somesuch and that this is inspired by the idea of Maia orcs in HOME - I would suspect that it would be extremely hard to demonstrate an IP infringement there.
LR
|
|
|
starlesswinter
Lorien
Nov 12 2012, 1:53am
Post #25 of 30
(298 views)
Shortcut
|
is that they didn't want to play up Gandalf as the Witch-king's adversary because it would lead to audience expectations that are never exactly fulfilled. But then again, they did include the "I will break him" line earlier when the Witch-king is talking to Gandalf. I do know that they were unhappy with the scene in general, which is why it wasn't included in the theatrical version. But I suppose they wanted to focus more on the scenes involving the Witch-king, Theoden, and Eowyn since it has more to do with the plot and actually has a payoff.
|
|
|
|
|
1
