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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Brian Sibley's Official Movie Guide to The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (some spoiler pics)
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 28 2012, 2:54pm

Post #101 of 207 (910 views)
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Well I certainly would characterise you as "a bunch of reactionary cranks" [In reply to] Can't Post

And I'm sure no one reading your posts, or the posts of others, would be thinking of "crank" or "spoil-sport" or anything of the sort.

I simply tend to disagree that (a) we can guess how Jackson would react to whatever hypothetical situation you have in mind and (b) that this would tell us anything very useful. My own guess would be that were he to sell the rights to someone else, he would probably be unsurprised to find them adapting the work in their own way, but it is just a guess.

Large numbers of authors sell the rights to their works. Some are happy with the products, some are not, some enjoy less literal adaptations and some do not etc. There isn't really any consistent experience, as far as I can see.

Similarly you seem to feel that more literal adaptations are, per se, more "respectful". I tend not to agree to agree with this either (though I also feel this idea of defence of "respect" is problematic)

LR

PS And I'm afraid that isn't Tolkien's quote or the context in which the quote I think you are referring to was proffered.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 28 2012, 2:56pm

Post #102 of 207 (909 views)
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Again I agree with your assessment Malveth [In reply to] Can't Post

but people will claim we don't know Tolkien's intent with those letters even though they seem pretty cut and dry to me Wink


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Oct 28 2012, 3:23pm

Post #103 of 207 (888 views)
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I've had it pre-ordered [In reply to] Can't Post

so I'm SO ANXIOUS to get my hands on it!!! *twitch*



sample

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



TORn's Observations Lists
Unused Scenes



Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 28 2012, 3:23pm

Post #104 of 207 (898 views)
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"Wouldn't" there in the title, apologies. Typo- as I hope is evident from the rest of the post. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Elenorflower
Gondor


Oct 28 2012, 3:26pm

Post #105 of 207 (899 views)
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yes I am terrifying [In reply to] Can't Post

if I dont get my double espresso of a morning. Mad Necromancers have nowt on my infinite grumpyness.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 28 2012, 3:33pm

Post #106 of 207 (898 views)
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Sounds like my wife... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't even attempt to talk to her in the morning until she is on her 3rd cup of coffee...Wink that's why after almost 20 years I still have all my appendages intact. Never bother a women who needs coffee in the morning until SHE is ready... LOL


Elenorflower
Gondor


Oct 28 2012, 3:35pm

Post #107 of 207 (887 views)
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I agree with you LR [In reply to] Can't Post

and I would add that PJ is fully entitled to use artistic licence, when and how he chooses. An adaptation is just that, all directors have their own take on how they want their film to look, no director in my opinion would give us a Hobbit film without these personal touches.


Macfeast
Rohan


Oct 28 2012, 3:41pm

Post #108 of 207 (871 views)
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So there's definitely going to be a food-fight? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not a fan of that idea. As for Bifur, I will say that I'm delighted at the idea of him being a toy-maker, and leave it at that.


imin
Valinor


Oct 28 2012, 3:45pm

Post #109 of 207 (881 views)
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Food fight [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmm thats another idea that sounds bad, again i will wait to see how it plays out on screen but i think most can imagine what it would look like.

I have the feeling i will really like certain things of these movies and others feel were done for humour but came off badly/for a childs sense of humour/PJ's humour - which essentially is not the same as mine, though i can be childish from time to time lol.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Oct 28 2012, 3:46pm

Post #110 of 207 (890 views)
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Jackson's view... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
"I'm aware of the the expectations but I never make movies for other people. I never have and I never will. I'm making The Hobbit for me. I have to. This will be The Hobbit I want to see and I just have to hope other people will want to see it, too."



"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort






(This post was edited by Eleniel on Oct 28 2012, 3:46pm)


imin
Valinor


Oct 28 2012, 3:53pm

Post #111 of 207 (852 views)
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I think that's the only way they can be made [In reply to] Can't Post

unless you want to make a film by opinion poll, which i think would suck.

The problem only comes when PJ's vision is different to ones own vision. On things like scenery and costumes i agree most the time. For example i love the look of Beorns Hall. For me i differ in my sense of humour and would prefer the films to be targeted at an older audience - purely for the selfish reason that i am older now than when i saw lotr, lol.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 28 2012, 3:54pm

Post #112 of 207 (875 views)
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But to add so much outside the actual story [In reply to] Can't Post

they should at least warn those expecting the Hobbit by saying "BASED ON", which at this point is all that it is. Based on the Hobbit, because we are not getting the tale of the hobbit the way it was written by Tolkien. We aren't even getting an interpretation close to Tolkien's IMO...They have altered characters and added several things NOT in the original story such as alternate plots and characters, some totally made up and nowhere in ANY of Tolkien's writings. Which IMO changes the context of Bilbo's journey as well as changing outcomes and events in characters that were in the book. So I think saying the films of the Hobbit are "based on" the book in plain black and white writing is not such a bad thing. At least its a more Honest thing to say instead of calling it the Hobbit.

Quote

"I'm aware of the the expectations but I never make movies for other people. I never have and I never will. I'm making The Hobbit for me. I have to. This will be The Hobbit I want to see and I just have to hope other people will want to see it, too."

I mean if this is Jackson's real feelings I don't see where he should have a problem putting "based on the Hobbit" in his title or somewhere associated with his film. People would still see it so whats it harm nothing but like I said it is more honest.Angelic


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Oct 28 2012, 3:58pm)


imin
Valinor


Oct 28 2012, 4:01pm

Post #113 of 207 (843 views)
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That is how i have been thinking of it for a while now [In reply to] Can't Post

Its no big deal to me to think its gone from an adaptation to based on. As stupid as it sounds it makes it easier to view this as PJ's film rather than Tolkien's book being changed into a film. In my mind the book and the film are now totally seperate entities. Others may have thought like this from the moment the film was announced i dont know but with the changes and things i feel its more based on than adapted.

This is not to be seen as a negative in terms of how i feel the movie will be. The movie could be awesome with the new things going on, e.g. dol guldur, i doubt they will be bad in many ways other than - not from the book.

Maybe just try and think like that - its based on rather than adapted and you will not care so much either about the changes? It means you can be excited for the film but not worried lol


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Oct 28 2012, 4:07pm

Post #114 of 207 (858 views)
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Authorial control... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Large numbers of authors sell the rights to their works. Some are happy with the products, some are not, some enjoy less literal adaptations and some do not etc. There isn't really any consistent experience, as far as I can see.



Exactly...I was amazed, having loved Ken Follett's two novels The Pillars of the Earth" and "World Without End", to discover that Follett was heavily involved with the mini-series adaptation of the first book which, IMO, was a complete travesty of the novel, but he appeared to be quite happy with the production.

Famously JK Rowling exerted authorial control over the HP movies, but fans still disagree about the success of some in terms of adaptation. We can all guess which stance Tolkien would have taken, had he still been with us...but there is a chance we might have been surprised...Wink


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort






Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 28 2012, 4:08pm

Post #115 of 207 (834 views)
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Thats exactly how I view it [In reply to] Can't Post

I plan on enjoying Peter Jackson's film even though they aren't even close to Tolkien's vision. Because to me thats all they are is "Based on" it quit being an adaptation long ago.

The Bottom line of an adaptation IMO is when you put out something with a certain name on it, it is expected that when you pick up the book with the same name on it you get that story. Not pick up the book just to get something you consider sub par to the film, or vastly different from the film. IMO a film makers job is to bring the text of the book to life not rewrite the book . Which is what it seems like we are getting IMO


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 28 2012, 4:09pm

Post #116 of 207 (831 views)
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Theres also a chance we wouldn't be [In reply to] Can't Post

but if Tolkien were involved then we could at least say he had creative control.Smile I could have lived with that Wink


Elenorflower
Gondor


Oct 28 2012, 4:12pm

Post #117 of 207 (871 views)
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they may be adding things outside the actual story, BUT [In reply to] Can't Post

the actual story IS still there, just under a few frilly layers of extra stuff, which is ok, as its only artistic licence and doesnt actually change essentially Bilbos Quest.
The important thing is this, that Bilbo can tell his tale, and go through his inner and outer journey. This WILL happen in the film. There will be however lots of added backstory and lots of added frilly nonesense like axes in heads, which is window dressing and can be ignored if you so wish. I have absolutely NO doubt that there will be the kernel of Bilbos story WITHIN the greater story bit like the Russian doll effect. All the window dressing is not worth getting irate over IMO.

I am on my fourth espresso so you are safe from my wrath today Sinister. Cool


(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Oct 28 2012, 4:17pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 28 2012, 4:25pm

Post #118 of 207 (850 views)
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I'm not irate [In reply to] Can't Post

trust me I'm just debating. but I think altering the context of the ring is a major wrong thing to do and will alter more outcomes than it helps keep the same as will making Sauron the main bad guy. Really we see all we need to know about him in LOTR and IMO that's the way they should have left it. I think the whole Azog being Thorin's nemesis is load of garbage since Azog was supposed to be killed by Dain, head cut off and put on a stick outside moria , aint no coming back. Bolg I could buy being Thorin's nemesis better than his role of the "Torturer of DolGuldur" at least that would fit with Tolkien's creation...

I really don't mind window dressing, I think its good. What I mind is outright change of the text for something completely made up. I would have no problem with the making scenes that Tolkien wrote more film worthy that would be a very good thing. Simply to just make up material to tell a story that isn't what Tolkien's story was about is changing things a bit too much for my tastes. I still say its only based on and loosely at that from some of what we have seen.Mad


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Oct 28 2012, 4:30pm

Post #119 of 207 (857 views)
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Letting go... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I think there comes a point where you have to accept that indeed it will no longer be Tolkien's Hobbit but "The Hobbit for the masses"...for want of a better description.

Adapting M-e appears to have evolved into blockbuster, formulaic entertainment, designed to appeal to the majority audience. And it will be a magnificent, commercial success - but of course, the thing that makes it a cut above most run-of-the mill movies, capturing the hearts and imagination particularly of first-time viewers, is undoubtedly the magic of Tolkien's storytelling, and I do agree and sympathize with those who bemoan the fact that Jackson has this need to dress up and exaggerate the simple beauty of the original material, when he got some much right with LotR when he "trusted Tolkien."


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort






Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 28 2012, 4:39pm

Post #120 of 207 (827 views)
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What bothers me about the way its presented though [In reply to] Can't Post

is they can't even have the decency to tell us the film going audience the truth. But then they wouldn't sell as many tickets now would they?Crazy

They should just tell us openly and honestly they don't think what Tolkien wrote is good enough to present as a movie to the masses the way he wrote it. Then just tell us honestly they are including things they want to see in the films because they think they wrote something better, instead of this BS about in the "spirit of Tolkien" if the spirit of Tolkien were in it it would follow the book a bit more closely. sure some embellishments but not outright changes especially to characters and plot developments.Angelic

So again I see no reason where putting the Phrase "based on" somewhere associated with the film or in the title should be a problem other than maybe in Warner Bros and Peter Jackson's talking purses, but if that's all that matters I guess they really don't care about the "spirit of Tolkien" as much as they care about the almighty dollarUnsure


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Oct 28 2012, 4:43pm)


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 28 2012, 4:48pm

Post #121 of 207 (852 views)
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Quite so. The Death of the Author seems to apply across media [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if they are involved.

Tolkien's statements about adaptations in his letters are interesting. He seems to recognise the necessity of liberties to be taken by adaptors but seems unable to fully acclimatise himself to many of the individual liberties or to concieve of a better solution, similarly to want adaptations, if primarily for the money, and also to wish to avoid them - as one would imagine a very mixed and conflicted set of thoughts an emotions.

His own suggestion was that of a "reading mime" which I think displays something of the gulf between the author and the adaptor.

LR


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 28 2012, 4:55pm

Post #122 of 207 (847 views)
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I'll try my hardest to hand out spoilers [In reply to] Can't Post

The problem is ... I'm picking up the books on the same day as moving house ... and I'm internet-less until Mid-November.

Do people accept smoke signals? One black cloud for Gandriel love scene confirmation, 2 black clouds for confirmation of the talking purse, and 3 black clouds for creepy Bilbo creeping me out. Wink

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 28 2012, 4:59pm

Post #123 of 207 (838 views)
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I don't think this level of literalness is all that common. [In reply to] Can't Post

Certainly the experience of the millions of folks who enjoyed LOTR would offer a counter example.

If not sure what people expect from an adaptation of a text other than a film which is based on the book. The film cannot be the book so it must be based on it. As you say yourself you expect some things to be more similar and some more different - there isn't an absolute.

Simply, it seems you would prefer a hypothetical film which is more literal. There is nothing wrong with that but equally there is nothing wrong with feeling that non literal adaptation is an equally valid option.

LR


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 28 2012, 5:17pm

Post #124 of 207 (823 views)
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Peter Jackson and his crew [In reply to] Can't Post

are making up a big majority of these films which are "based" on vague notes of Tolkien's, not stories of his or complex ideas of his, they are based on basic vague notes. I still say an adaptation should bring the text of the book to life and not be made up content... merely embellishments on existing content, which if you have to write more than a certain percentage its no longer the original material but only based on it.

Whats wrong with them being honest and saying they are making alot of this stuff up?


Quote
There is nothing wrong with that but equally there is nothing wrong with feeling that non literal adaptation is an equally valid option.

So then you can openly admit there is no harm or reason they shouldn't be able to put "based on" somewhere associated with the films. Like I said it would at least be honest

Thing is this isn't about LOTR its about the Hobbit which from what we have seen so far is a totally different animal so what was done with LOTR does not apply but they at least kept it a bit closer to the source material for LOTR than they are the Hobbit from what I see


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Oct 28 2012, 5:19pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 28 2012, 5:39pm

Post #125 of 207 (831 views)
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I am still convinced this has to be a flashback to Old Took's parties. I love the picture [In reply to] Can't Post

as with the other party pictures, and I still strongly suspect that Gandalf's choosing of Bilbo and his knowledge of him will be conveyed to the audience through at least one brief flashback of Bilbo's childhood. Unfinished Tales explicitly recounts that it was then that the Wizard first took note of Bilbo, and while those rights are off limits to the film makers, it is implicitly acknowledged in The Hobbit proper strongly enough that they can still use the information.

In Reply To
I don't know why there's a party in the Hobbit...but I'm glad to see Gandalf dancing with hobbits again! Smile


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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