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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: SgniR eht fo Drol eht: Noissucsid Eivom:
Tom Bombadil
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Elenorflower
Rodnog


Oct 28 2012, 2:50pm

Post #26 of 88 (1764 views)
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No I was never creeped out by Tom and Goldberry [In reply to] Can't Post

But I did and do find them dangerous and Faerie. I look at Tom as a kind of Herne the Hunter figure or Celtic diety. Not to be messed with. But Tom is kind and Goldberrry is gentle, but so is a Summer day before a storm.


Elenorflower
Rodnog


Oct 28 2012, 2:58pm

Post #27 of 88 (1753 views)
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Nothing is lost? [In reply to] Can't Post

It makes me sad you could even think that. It makes me sad you dont see beyond the surface to the heart of Tom. I believe strongly he IS Middle Earth, he is the land made incarnate, if you reject him you reject the wildness, the faerie, the oddness and the beauty of Middle Earth.

But this is just my opinion, you are obviously entitled to disagree. Unsure


(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Oct 28 2012, 3:03pm)


grammaboodawg
Latrommi


Oct 28 2012, 3:19pm

Post #28 of 88 (1755 views)
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True ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

I got the feeling she was being tongue-in-cheek about it just to acknowledge the situation. No one has ever made mention of filming anything about Tom or the Old Forest. I have a pretty huge list of unused scenes in my footer's link, and there's nothing about it that I've ever found. She was just toying with us ;)



sample

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



TORn's Observations Lists
Unused Scenes



Otaku-sempai
Latrommi


Oct 28 2012, 4:35pm

Post #29 of 88 (1778 views)
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I'm still sad over the exclusion of the Barrow-downs and the Wights... [In reply to] Can't Post

Although, I can understand why Tom and Goldberry were dropped, I would like to see some acknowlegement of the Old Forest and the Barrow-downs in The Hobbit whether the Dwarves decide that the downs are worth a look or if Jackson just includes Wights among the defenders at Dol Guldur.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


DanielLB
Latrommi


Oct 28 2012, 4:49pm

Post #30 of 88 (1743 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

And it would be interesting to see what the general audience think/though of Denethor when they see/saw The Return of the King.

His character doesn't make much sense in the films.

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



GoodGuyA
Neirol

Oct 29 2012, 10:16pm

Post #31 of 88 (1734 views)
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I was not stating that absolute [In reply to] Can't Post

What I was saying was that people just accepting Bombadil because "Tolkien can do no wrong" is blind. You are entitled to like Bombadil, but I personally would like to see a more substantial reason than that. I know that there are reasons people see him as important, but some just don't give evidence to that point.

And personally, I don't find this narrative technique very "groundbreaking". It's what I like to call a 'road trip' chapter. Something like Alice in Wonderland. It's an odd encounter with a (supposed to be) interesting character that sets a frame of mind for going further in the story. However, Bombadil doesn't fulfill that due to the nature of the world after Bombadil. Instead it's a road block that further stretches credulity of the story's pace in terms of the timeframe presented. This is, of course, all IMO.

Personally I think there's enough whimsical creatures in both books to provide us with a colorful interpretation of Middle-Earth which is (mostly) internally consistent. Those things that are not consistent are what tends to be fiercely discussed, and that's why I think certain subjects are, not because they're truly that interesting. Tolkien spells out the things he finds important, I think, and that proves to me that Bombadil was never a true piece of Middle-Earth.


Elenorflower
Rodnog


Oct 29 2012, 11:00pm

Post #32 of 88 (1737 views)
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I Beg to Differ On An Epic Scale with Blokes in Togas and Sandals. [In reply to] Can't Post

Shaking Their Spears At Your Nether Regions.Mad


''Tolkien spells out the things he finds important, I think, and that proves to me that Bombadil was never a true piece of Middle-Earth''.

Tolkien meant Tom to be a mystery. He was supposed to be an enigma. Tolkien found enigmas important. Cool pfft!


GoodGuyA
Neirol

Oct 29 2012, 11:10pm

Post #33 of 88 (1694 views)
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Was just my interpretation [In reply to] Can't Post

There's nothing I have personally found in his narrative works that aren't either discussed to death or are foreshadowed rather blatantly. This doesn't mean I'm fully lambasting his writing, but I find that LotR is very upfront with what it has to say.

Feel free to call me 'no fun' if you'd like, but get those rabid people away from me!


Macfeast
NahoR


Oct 29 2012, 11:14pm

Post #34 of 88 (1726 views)
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"If done right". [In reply to] Can't Post

That is my mantra when it comes to storytelling; Anything else, I believe, is needlessly restricting.

Certainly I believe Bombadil would have been a hard thing to do right on film, but I do not believe it impossible. Focus on the right things, and I could see it working. Would mean some cutting elsewhere to make room for it, though, with the limited timeframe that comes with cinematic productions (something which I believe might be the biggest weakness of cinematic storytelling).


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Oct 29 2012, 11:19pm)


Ardamírë
Ronilav


Oct 30 2012, 12:41am

Post #35 of 88 (1787 views)
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Philippa's point was something else [In reply to] Can't Post

She was not saying that they filmed anything of Tom Bombadil or the barrows. She was saying that because it's completely skipped over, you could say that the hobbits went there but we didn't see it. There's nothing in the films that contradicts a supposed passage through the Old Forest and vacation at Tom's, but neither is there evidence for it.

So, no, no missing scenes. It's just a "you can believe it happened if you want to" sort of thing.

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


TheBladeGlowsBlue
Llednevir


Oct 30 2012, 1:01pm

Post #36 of 88 (1677 views)
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What bothers me most... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is PJ leaving out TB and the Barrow Wights as it would 'slow the story down' - then completely omit him/them AGAIN when he had free reign to include them in the EE's which were awash with anchor-like additions which slowed the story to a snail's-pace at times.

I personally think PJ happens to be one of those folks who just didn't 'get' Tom... Frown

Maegnas aen estar nin dagnir in yngyl im


geordie
Aessere Lot

Oct 30 2012, 1:19pm

Post #37 of 88 (1660 views)
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I agree with you - [In reply to] Can't Post

- Tom is, as Shippey says somewhere or other, a genius locus - that is, the spirit of the place (in this case, the Withywindle valley and its environs). He's essntial to the story, IMO, for the reasons you give.
.


Otaku-sempai
Latrommi


Oct 30 2012, 1:20pm

Post #38 of 88 (1657 views)
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Okay, but why address response to me? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
She was not saying that they filmed anything of Tom Bombadil or the barrows. She was saying that because it's completely skipped over, you could say that the hobbits went there but we didn't see it. There's nothing in the films that contradicts a supposed passage through the Old Forest and vacation at Tom's, but neither is there evidence for it.

So, no, no missing scenes. It's just a "you can believe it happened if you want to" sort of thing.



It was grammaboodawg who brought up what Boyens said in the extended edition commentary in the first place. I merely responded to her post.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


geordie
Aessere Lot

Oct 30 2012, 1:28pm

Post #39 of 88 (1682 views)
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Tom and Goldberry do work in dramatic form - [In reply to] Can't Post

- as demonstrated on the radio in the '90s. Brian Sibley followed up his excellent LotR radio series with a set of Tolkien's shorter works; Farmer Giles of Ham, Smith of Wootton Major, Leaf by Niggle and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. Only, on the case of Tom, Brian didn't give us the poems from the book of that name; he gave us instead the 'missing chapters' from his dramatised LotR - the Old Forest is there, and Bombadil's house, and the barrow-downs.

Goldberry and Tom work in this play because they are well-written characters, whose words work best when read aloud, or in this case, acted. The whole sequence does work as an intriguing little play on its own, with just a little prologue and afterword by Frodo.

The series of plays was issued as a set of cassette tapes, under the title 'Tales from the Perilous Realm'. I recommend them - if they're still available.

.


Ardamírë
Ronilav


Oct 30 2012, 2:49pm

Post #40 of 88 (1651 views)
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And I'm responding to you [In reply to] Can't Post

Am I not allowed to do that?

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales

(This post was edited by Ardamírë on Oct 30 2012, 2:52pm)


Ardamírë
Ronilav


Oct 30 2012, 2:51pm

Post #41 of 88 (1644 views)
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But the EEs weren't originally planned [In reply to] Can't Post

So when they were filming they knew that they just didn't want to go into the Old Forest or visit Tom. So then when the EEs were assembled, they didn't go back and film that huge chunk of narrative when they'd already decided not to show it.

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


macfalk
Ronilav


Oct 30 2012, 2:53pm

Post #42 of 88 (1784 views)
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Tom Bombadil- shoehorned and deus ex machina. [In reply to] Can't Post

Deus ex machina - saving the hobbits from the tree and the barrow-weights, which is a far away from his house. Lazy, lazy writing by Tolkien here. Some people would probably want to throw me off a cliff for saying this, but I do think his writing in certain sections of LOTR are truly abysmal, especially when compared to The Hobbit.

And the fact that he is apparantly this sort of demi-god who is in no way affected by the ring is another brick in the wall of LOTR's dwindeling sense of "realism in a fairy-tale world", and halts the story completely.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.

(This post was edited by macfalk on Oct 30 2012, 2:56pm)


Elenorflower
Rodnog


Oct 30 2012, 3:49pm

Post #43 of 88 (1642 views)
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Throw you off a cliff? [In reply to] Can't Post

hmm, I dont think Elven Queens stoop to chucking folk over cliffs but I could smite you with great pleasure. Sly


Elenorflower
Rodnog


Oct 30 2012, 3:54pm

Post #44 of 88 (1637 views)
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There is something odd I noticed though, [In reply to] Can't Post

there are I believe some Weta cards or something, showing characters like Tom and there is also one of Goldberry. Whats really odd is they show her looking more like a soccer mom, rather than an ethereal otherworldly river spirit, its strange and it makes me wonder if they are actors from some scenes they cut, otherwise it doesnt make sense, well to me anyway.


Ardamírë
Ronilav


Oct 30 2012, 4:04pm

Post #45 of 88 (1619 views)
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Those were just a card trading game [In reply to] Can't Post

They also had a card for Glorfindel. But they're not from characters that were cut or anything.

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Elenorflower
Rodnog


Oct 30 2012, 4:04pm

Post #46 of 88 (1639 views)
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I think he may have got Tom [In reply to] Can't Post

but thought that a modern audience wouldnt.
There are aspects of Tom that could be rather silly for this 'ironic' and cynical age. There are many people who would laugh at the fol-de-rol singing and capering of Tom. They wouldnt see beyond the Yellow boots and feathered hat, they would see this 'hippy' and snigger and roll their eyes. Tom is not easy for cynical folk to take seriously, to their peril. They dont realize the immense power and strangeness, behind those twinkling blue eyes.


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 30 2012, 4:17pm

Post #47 of 88 (1641 views)
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Something like Alice in Wonderland... [In reply to] Can't Post

You do realize that Carroll's Alice in Wonderland is a classic and enduring story, critically-acclaimed, and seriously studied in prestigious English universities around the world? What exactly is wrong with a point in the story that is reminiscent of that?

I disagree that the Bombadil episode is Wonderland-esque, but find it baffling that you would use that as a criticism.


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Oct 30 2012, 4:23pm

Post #48 of 88 (1619 views)
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That's a great point [In reply to] Can't Post

It is primarily cynicism and irony that prevent an appreciation of Bombadil, IMO.

However, I am glad PJ didn't touch the scene. He would have butchered it with toilet humor, etc., and it was best left off-screen. In fact, I wouldn't really trust anyone but Tolkien to get Bombadil right.

So, I think the Bombadil chapters should never be dramatized for the film medium.


Beutlin
Llednevir

Oct 30 2012, 4:41pm

Post #49 of 88 (1645 views)
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Personally I think Treebeard is far superior to Bombadil. [In reply to] Can't Post

Both are whimsical characters who are slightly out of place. They both live/rule over an ancient forest. Having said that, the ents and Treebeard rise up eventually and shape the outcome of the war of the ring. I found the chapters with Tom Bombadil extremely boring, and there is a reason why a lot of people who stop reading the book do so around this part of the story. Tolkien certainly deserves credit for including such a weird character – Bombadil is once more a testament to the old professor’s peculiar humour – but it also shows once more that the man was not a professional writer.

Ceterum censeo montem artis magicae atrae esse delendum.


Elenorflower
Rodnog


Oct 30 2012, 5:19pm

Post #50 of 88 (1633 views)
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Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

''not a professional writer' ???

*speechless* Shocked



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