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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Runes *possible minor spoilers?*

Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Aug 28 2012, 4:34am

Post #1 of 42 (8077 views)
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Runes *possible minor spoilers?* Can't Post

Has anyone attempted a transliteration of the runes embroidered onto this dwarf"s coat from vlog 8?
http://heirsofdurin.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/untitled-3-copy.jpg
Heirsofdurin's screen-cap is pretty clear, but is there a way of enhancing the contrast on the pic to better reveal the runes closer to the figure's belt?
So far all I can get is R-O-TH-E-R-C-?-?- if using the historical futhork rune system that Tolkien adopted for the English on Thror's map. The fictional Angerthas runes invented by Tolkien and used elsewhere don't seem to fit. The runes themselves are very fuzzy so I'm likely wrong on at least a couple.
The embroidery on both sides of the coat seems to be identical.
I desperately needed another speculation thread.. the well has run very dry as of late!
Also, are there any other runic inscriptions/emblems that are hiding out in the Vlogs?

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 28 2012, 9:42am

Post #2 of 42 (6438 views)
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I can't offer any knowledge on runes, but just wanted to say [In reply to] Can't Post

Good spot! Amazes me that we all pick out different things, and some things still go unnoticed for days/weeks/months after vlog releases! Cool


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Aug 28 2012, 10:41am

Post #3 of 42 (6326 views)
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Good one! [In reply to] Can't Post

Iīve just tought about this a cople of days ago, I was wondering (and still) who this two could be. I returned back to them because I tought that maybe one of them was PJ doing his cameo. After that I tought (and still) that this two could be managins one of Sauronīs rings that he gave to the dwarfs, who knows...

Then I noticed the runes, and I have no idea...but good spot indeed!Smile


DarkJackal
Rohan


Aug 28 2012, 3:47pm

Post #4 of 42 (6394 views)
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Here is another pic [In reply to] Can't Post

I tried it before, and just tried again with this version,



but it didn't change the results I got, which looks like R-O-TH-E-R-H-O?-O?-


(This post was edited by DarkJackal on Aug 28 2012, 3:53pm)


TomthePilgrim
Rohan


Aug 28 2012, 3:49pm

Post #5 of 42 (6124 views)
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interesting . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

> Futhorc (old english) : R . A . TH . E . B . H . . . . . . . . . although I've been wrong before . . . using Edred Thorssons 'RuneLore' and Ralph Blum's 'Book of Runes.'
doubt it's either Futhorc or Elder Futhark . . .

> using Angerthas, I got : B . GW . PS . O . P . E . . . you are right . . . that makes no sense. Again, could be wrong . . . the picture isn't good enough to get a good look.

PJ & Co. have a habit of using the proper translations . . . hmmm . . .


The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began
Now far ahead the Road has gone
And I must follow, if I can

"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"


DarkJackal
Rohan


Aug 28 2012, 4:17pm

Post #6 of 42 (6184 views)
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A few more examples of runes [In reply to] Can't Post

Just for kicks, here are some more runes we've seen employed in relation to this film so far:



This is my attempt to replicate what can be seen on this photo posted on Herr-der-ringe-film.de. It spells "Kingdom". The image was rumored to be from the set, and certainly looks similar to what we saw in v-log 8.

While this is the message given to us in the last v-log:




grinman
Rivendell


Aug 28 2012, 5:56pm

Post #7 of 42 (9388 views)
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letter in front? [In reply to] Can't Post

It does look like there's a rune in front of the "R"... but can't make it out. What say you? Are runic words separated by spaces? Maybe it's a word written strictly in Khuzdul? That would make sense, since they are dwarves..

If the rune in front is a "B", then the word could possibly be BROTHERHOOD....?


(This post was edited by grinman on Aug 28 2012, 5:58pm)


AlatarielNoldo
Bree


Aug 28 2012, 6:10pm

Post #8 of 42 (6115 views)
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I believe you're right! [In reply to] Can't Post

I was just trying to figure it out myself, I love a good puzzle, and using Futhorc came up with R-O-TH-E-R-H-O.
BROTHERHOOD would make sense.
Seems like Weta used Futhorc and not Angerthas.

But in Lindon Gil-Galad still maintained his power, and Sauron dared not as yet to pass the Mountains of Ered Luin nor to assail the Havens.

[The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age]

(This post was edited by AlatarielNoldo on Aug 28 2012, 6:16pm)


DarkJackal
Rohan


Aug 28 2012, 6:28pm

Post #9 of 42 (6169 views)
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"B" rilliant!! [In reply to] Can't Post

And this is why I suck at figuring these things out. It can be staring me in the face and I'll be stumped just by one letter I can't see.

Yes Grinman, I'd say you got it!


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 28 2012, 6:33pm

Post #10 of 42 (6076 views)
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A side note - [In reply to] Can't Post

This picture is the best example of how the fake hands look awful - especially on the dwarf under question.


DarkJackal
Rohan


Aug 28 2012, 6:47pm

Post #11 of 42 (6197 views)
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The brotherhood?? [In reply to] Can't Post

The dwarf wearing the runes looks a bit like Mark Mitchinson, who is credited on IMDB as playing Braga (as Carne discovered a while ago).

This is from the Games Workshop list of figures (which we don't know how movie accurate it is, but...)

Grey Mountain Dragons: Braga & Goldscale Worshippers

Just wondering if these worshipers and a brotherhood could be the same.

Here's the full size version of that image.





(This post was edited by DarkJackal on Aug 28 2012, 6:50pm)


Carne
Tol Eressea

Aug 28 2012, 6:59pm

Post #12 of 42 (6193 views)
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Braga is not a dwarf, I can tell you that much. [In reply to] Can't Post

And the list was apparently fake. MrCere asked someone involved in the production and they said it was not legit.

Some of it sounded interesting though Frown


(This post was edited by Carne on Aug 28 2012, 7:00pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 28 2012, 7:09pm

Post #13 of 42 (5993 views)
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Potential brothers [In reply to] Can't Post

Dain I and Borin
Thror, Fror and Gror
Frerin and Thorin II
Groin and Fundin
Fathers of Bombur and Bofur, and of Bifur

Have I missed any other likely candidates?


DarkJackal
Rohan


Aug 28 2012, 7:52pm

Post #14 of 42 (6065 views)
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Going to ask the obvious [In reply to] Can't Post

So what is Braga? Smile

And some of the list sounded like madness! I wouldn't be too sorry to see some of it not materialize.


(This post was edited by DarkJackal on Aug 28 2012, 7:54pm)


Carne
Tol Eressea

Aug 28 2012, 7:53pm

Post #15 of 42 (5934 views)
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Homo sapiens [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 28 2012, 8:09pm

Post #16 of 42 (6010 views)
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Sounds like an evil man [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps he kills a few Dwarves in the battle, for "revenge"?


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Aug 28 2012, 9:11pm

Post #17 of 42 (5972 views)
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Good eye! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Aug 28 2012, 9:21pm

Post #18 of 42 (5966 views)
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Thror? [In reply to] Can't Post

I could see this being a very heavily-masked Jeffrey Thomas. Perhaps it is Thror? And the dwarf inspecting the ring is either Gror or Fror? Or perhaps "brotherhood" in the sense of individuals bound under a common oath?

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 28 2012, 9:29pm

Post #19 of 42 (5880 views)
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Could be Thror [In reply to] Can't Post

The Dwarf clearly has *a lot* of prosthetics on - could be anyone behind it Wink I'm not familiar enough with Jeffrey Thomas to pick out his features.

I took "brotherhood" literally, but yes, it could be more metaphorical.


DarkJackal
Rohan


Aug 28 2012, 9:36pm

Post #20 of 42 (6020 views)
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Futhark appears to be the key to these inscriptions [In reply to] Can't Post

And reminds me of one more example. The replica key (no longer listed on the original site) has runes, which appear to spell Durin Heir.

For anyone who didn't know this already, Tolkien used Futhark all over The Hobbit.


(This post was edited by DarkJackal on Aug 28 2012, 9:43pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 28 2012, 9:42pm

Post #21 of 42 (5972 views)
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Good spot, DarkJackal :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

On a semi un-related note, did you ever manage to decipher anymore of Bilbo's contract after the thread here? Smile


DarkJackal
Rohan


Aug 28 2012, 9:47pm

Post #22 of 42 (5856 views)
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Haven't tried [In reply to] Can't Post

I should probably look at it again while reading the description from Comic-con of Bilbo reading the contract.


DarkJackal
Rohan


Aug 28 2012, 9:50pm

Post #23 of 42 (5934 views)
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Brotherhood of merchants, or artisans? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


TheSexyBeard
Lorien

Aug 28 2012, 9:53pm

Post #24 of 42 (5925 views)
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Dwarf Dads. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always felt that the Dwarf in purple looks like he could be Nori, Dori and Ori's father (he looks like Dori too me but without the fancy hair), and the one with the headband looks like a more sophisticated version of Bifur, possibly his father. I know it's probably unlikely to be the case but those were my thoughts when I first saw them.

Yes, my username is terrible.


Magpie
Immortal


Aug 28 2012, 9:55pm

Post #25 of 42 (5916 views)
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You should browse this site to see what translating they've done [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.elendilion.pl/

These are the same people (or same person) who did massive amounts of translating of objects and lyrics from the LOTR movie. That site which functioned on older software remains intact and this site (I just linked to) is the new one where they are apparently doing Hobbit translations. I think they did some of the sword inscriptions.

I would also suggest, in the spirit of collaboration, that any results you guys come up with here, be forwarded to that site. :-) Ryszard Derdzinski is very good about crediting people and you can see that the most recent article at the blog was written by our Earl.


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DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 28 2012, 10:03pm

Post #26 of 42 (2785 views)
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Great thinking! He does look like Bifur - especially the beard. [In reply to] Can't Post

I love speculation! Laugh


DarkJackal
Rohan


Aug 28 2012, 10:08pm

Post #27 of 42 (2794 views)
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Seems like Lothenon and I agree... [In reply to] Can't Post

...about the new key's runes. They just need to update the post with their find Smile


DarkJackal
Rohan


Aug 28 2012, 10:25pm

Post #28 of 42 (2792 views)
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One last example of things we've seen [In reply to] Can't Post

Are the inscriptions on Dwalin's axes.

Which, if you follow the information presented at Elendilion, are written in Angerthas Moria and are words from neo-Khuzdul: UMRAZ and UKLAT.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 28 2012, 10:36pm

Post #29 of 42 (2780 views)
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Agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Prosthetic hands. Worst. design. choice. ever.


Carne
Tol Eressea

Aug 28 2012, 10:38pm

Post #30 of 42 (2866 views)
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Not really [In reply to] Can't Post

They're supposed to look like Tolkien's dwarves, not just short people, hence the big noses, bulky frame etc. If they had included all this but ignored the hands then they would have looked ridiculously tiny.


(This post was edited by Carne on Aug 28 2012, 10:41pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 28 2012, 10:43pm

Post #31 of 42 (2744 views)
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But the hobbits were essentially treated as [In reply to] Can't Post

Short people, though with big feet and ears. They didn't bother putting big hands on them, and it worked just fine.

I think the dwarven prosthetic should have been toned down overall, for face and hands. That would have made everything easier, and more naturalistic.


Carne
Tol Eressea

Aug 28 2012, 10:45pm

Post #32 of 42 (2775 views)
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But that's pretty much what they are, short people. [In reply to] Can't Post

They only have the big feet, so there's no reason to enhance anything else.

The dwarves have big costumes, beards and so on, so they have to compensate for that.

Same reason Ian McKellen has a prosthetic nose, because his beard "eats" away the face.


(This post was edited by Carne on Aug 28 2012, 10:46pm)


TomthePilgrim
Rohan


Aug 28 2012, 10:55pm

Post #33 of 42 (2785 views)
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Gak! [In reply to] Can't Post

I found a better site for dwarf runes . . . I too came up with ROTHERHO . . .
BROTHERHOOD makes perfect sense . . . we can't see the B, nor the OD.

Good catch!


The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began
Now far ahead the Road has gone
And I must follow, if I can

"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 28 2012, 10:57pm

Post #34 of 42 (2887 views)
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I have seen many people in real life (and in films) with real beards and real noses [In reply to] Can't Post

And their noses usually look just fine...and if they have prominent noses already (as Stott, McTavish and many of the other dwarf actors already do) then it more than holds its own against the beard.

I think this is an example of over-thinking the design, where that over-think ends up having a negative impact on the overall look. Better for the dwarves to look like very short bearded humans than strange swollen cartoonish figures that have been assaulted by some evil and incompetent plastic surgeon.


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Aug 28 2012, 10:58pm)


TomthePilgrim
Rohan


Aug 28 2012, 10:58pm

Post #35 of 42 (2792 views)
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Yup . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Your production photo pillar says "Kingdom".
And the picture from comic-con means exactly what it says : "Welcome my sister sons to comic con"

This exercise caused me to discover my dwarven alphabet examples were not quite accurate.
I've found I newer, more accurate one . . . Bring 'em on! Wink


The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began
Now far ahead the Road has gone
And I must follow, if I can

"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"


imin
Valinor


Aug 28 2012, 11:20pm

Post #36 of 42 (2754 views)
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They all have late stage of acromegaly :P // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


grinman
Rivendell


Aug 29 2012, 2:01am

Post #37 of 42 (2735 views)
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false beards [In reply to] Can't Post

The key here is FALSE beards. Real beards don't add volume to the face the same as a false beard, being that the false beard is usually part of an appliance that's glued onto the face. That adds a lot more volume than a natural beard would... not to mention the hair itself.

Now, having said that, I agree that some of the noses and facial prostheses are overdone. It's one thing to have a slightly larger nose (Gandalf) to offset the volume of the beard versus having a ridiculously large nose.

Though, if Dwarves live to great age and have the same aging tendencies that humans do, their noses and ears would keep growing as they age. So, older dwarves would have much larger noses and ears. Which, it seems, is the case with many of them.


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 29 2012, 6:07am

Post #38 of 42 (2759 views)
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Not written by me actually [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm in touch with Ryszard and I keep sending him links to images and our board discussions (when stuff originates on here) with a brief summary of what I'm talking about for context.

As English is not his first language, he sort of paraphrases what I send him. So really I've never written any articles on there though my name pops up in a few... it's all his work Smile



The Plan 9 Interview... in celebration of the 10th anniversary of the release of The Fellowship of the Ring.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 29 2012, 6:18am

Post #39 of 42 (2714 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

Since the production probably did not want this list to leak, there is no incentive for them to confirm its authenticity.

So, it may be a fake, or it may not be.


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 29 2012, 7:29am

Post #40 of 42 (2691 views)
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I agree with this [In reply to] Can't Post

I just wish the hands didn't look so fake. The rest of the Dwarf designs that we have seen don't really bother me. Smile


Magpie
Immortal


Aug 29 2012, 2:09pm

Post #41 of 42 (2661 views)
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He is a great guy [In reply to] Can't Post

and an asset to the LOTR fan community.

Thanks for the clarification.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 29 2012, 2:57pm

Post #42 of 42 (2877 views)
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Yup [In reply to] Can't Post

I otherwise love the look of most of the dwarves we have seen thus far, barring Kili.

 
 

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