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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Jackson comments on Del Toro's vision of The Hobbit
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SirDennisC
Half-elven


Aug 25 2012, 1:38am

Post #26 of 216 (4134 views)
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And, and didn't he give us the phrase, "for pete's sake?" // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on 0 secs ago)


GoodGuyA
Lorien

Aug 25 2012, 1:42am

Post #27 of 216 (4151 views)
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Monopolized? [In reply to] Can't Post

That's just a terribly misleading word, you know. Not only have there been other interpretations of Tolkien, both in film and other media, but what would you epect from the most recent adaptation? Of course it's going to be more in the public consciousness than others. Before that, the 'monopoly' was from Ted Nadsmith, or the Rakin & Bass Hobbit. I guess that doesn't count, since you feel betrayyyedd! by the Jackson films. Well don't you fret. In a few decades we'll get a new, terribly overwrought version for you to grumble over!


HiddenSpring
Lorien

Aug 25 2012, 1:42am

Post #28 of 216 (4170 views)
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What might have been [In reply to] Can't Post

A Guillermo del Toro version would have been immensely interesting not just for the beauty of the monsters but for the sensations he'd be able to evoke. There is a very simple scene in Pan's Labyrinth, with a dying mother and her daughter lying in bed in the darkness, listening intently to the rustling of the wind in the old country house. It's bewitching because it's in that uncomfortable area between magic, nature and reality. Now, I'm aware that kind of high Spanish romanticism wouldn't always gel with the mythic Britishness of The Hobbit, but just imagine being engulfed by the shadows and sounds of Mirkwood in quite the same way, wondering about the trees, the forest, the eyes in the dark, the singing. It's that perfect state of wonder and fear.

That said, I trust Peter Jackson more in other aspects. I don't think you could improve on his lived-in and humorous take on The Shire, for instance. In a world where egos weren't so important a co-direction between the two would have been a sight to behold.


(This post was edited by HiddenSpring on Aug 25 2012, 1:50am)


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Aug 25 2012, 1:44am

Post #29 of 216 (4157 views)
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LOL [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


Wink


From the bottom of the Long-Lake a dragon shall be possessed...green lights glowing out of the deep waters shall be seen where the dragon fell...reanimated shall be Smaug that was killed...and the Dark Lord will fly over Middle-Earth unopposed...raining fire down upon his enemies...


Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Aug 25 2012, 2:34am

Post #30 of 216 (4103 views)
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... [In reply to] Can't Post

Shelob'sAppetite wrote: what I am most interested in is how much of Del Toro's influence is still in the scripts, as he was an equal partner on those.

Answer: Maybe 0.1% GDT's script credit is contractual. His vision and his influence are long gone--as PJ politely, but emphatically, emphasized. These movies are now 99.9% Jackson.


(This post was edited by Black Breathalizer on Aug 25 2012, 2:36am)


dalecooper
Rivendell

Aug 25 2012, 2:44am

Post #31 of 216 (4112 views)
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I feel quite oppositely... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and not just because I'm a bigger fan of the LOTR movies than you.

For one thing, when you say PJ & company have monopolized the vision of the movies, I think that's misleading, because it sounds like it's PJ above all else, with a company just executing his orders. I don't think that's true. He may be at the main switch, but plenty of artists contributed otherwise; surely many of the designs came directly or indirectly from Howe and Lee, and of course the music is entirely Shore's. Even in an arena that PJ and his closest inner circle worked on directly - the script - there was certainly input from other people who are writers or scholars, and are fans of the books. That's all to say that I feel you put undue emphasis on the PJ part, and I'd prefer to emphasize and expand the notion of the "company." :) This is why I've never quite understood my friend who got so mad at the movies because of things like the change to Faramir - it seems to me that even if you hate those kinds of changes, there's so much other stuff that the movies got right, and it's equally as important to me to see those things. Anyway, that's a side tunnel I'd like to not get lost going down.

For another, unless I had hated the LOTR movies, I probably would have always wanted a "Hobbit" which is similar in tone and style. I like the feeling of watching a complete, mammoth undertaking. I liked plowing through 5 seasons of "The Wire"; I wouldn't have wanted one of those seasons to be helmed by someone other than David Simon. So given that I like the LOTR trilogy, I have always felt like PJ directing "The Hobbit" was the best choice. But it's understandable that we would differ on that front. If it comforts you, I would argue even to LOTR detractors that the best parts of those movies were the early parts revolving around the hobbits and The Shire, and I feel (or at least hope) like these movies will be much closer to those sequences in spirit. So chin up - these could be quite good!

And finally, I have to admit that I never thought Del Toro was the right choice for this material in the first place. His personal sense of style is too strong and too contrary to how I picture "The Hobbit" in my head. I like his designs for Hellboy and Pan's Labyrinth, but NONE of them resemble Tolkien creatures to me, not even slightly. Besides, if memory serves, he was no great Tolkien or fantasy fan before being recruited for this project - that doesn't really scream to me that he was likely to have great respect for the source material. He's a guy with strong personal ideas that worm their way into many of his movies, and I could easily see big chunks of the Hobbit's plot subtly transforming to be more in line with GDT's personal vision. I know a lot of his writing is still in the movies we will see, but I also feel certain that Jackson and collaborators rewrote to their heart's content after he left (along with re-designing all his creatures), and that actually comforts me a bit. For all his little adjustments and flights of fancy, Jackson is basically just telling the same tale as Tolkien but blockbusterizing it. I sort of suspect that Del Toro might have made something more personal, less Hollywood-epic in feel - but also something that actually feels LESS like "The Hobbit" to me. All of his movies that I've seen feel very much like Guillermo Del Toro Movies, and none of them have a tone that (in my mind) resembles the sprightly, Old World-infused, twinkly-eyed Englishness of Tolkien.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 25 2012, 3:21am

Post #32 of 216 (4240 views)
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Thorin was NOT described with antlers [In reply to] Can't Post

For the millionth time, Del Toro described a Thorin with a helmet that had "thorns" on it, which the reporter described as antlers. If you're going to criticize, at least get the story straight. Smile


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Aug 25 2012, 3:23am

Post #33 of 216 (4018 views)
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its kinda like saying [In reply to] Can't Post

the director of the last chronicles of narnia monopolized C.S. Lewis's series...actually he probably did C.S. Lewis a service by giving people who would have otherwise paid no attention or interest in his work/writing.


From the bottom of the Long-Lake a dragon shall be possessed...green lights glowing out of the deep waters shall be seen where the dragon fell...reanimated shall be Smaug that was killed...and the Dark Lord will fly over Middle-Earth unopposed...raining fire down upon his enemies...

(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Aug 25 2012, 3:24am)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 25 2012, 3:26am

Post #34 of 216 (4127 views)
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Once again, putting words in my mouth. Helps with creating straw men... [In reply to] Can't Post

I said filmic interpretation, by which I meant a live-action film.

I said nothing about static artwork, or animation.

I also said nothing about feeling "betrayyyedd" by the films. I simply did not find them to be very good, and wish another director had decided to make them.

My opinion in no way threatens yours. So why fly off the handle? Like the films, say so, and be done with it.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 25 2012, 3:31am

Post #35 of 216 (4110 views)
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All good points [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for responding with reason, and not with knee-jerk defensiveness. Also, you may know that I have much higher hopes for the Hobbit, than I did for LOTR, largely because I think the tone will be closer to the best parts of the LOTR films, which were in the Shire. The reason I like the idea of three films is that I think it will give PJ more time to flesh out the world and story, as he did with Bilbo, Gandalf and Frodo at the beginning of FOTR. I always felt that the films went downhill when PJ and company tried to jam too many character arcs into too little time, so for PJ, the more time the better. As such, the below comforts me very much.


Quote
If it comforts you, I would argue even to LOTR detractors that the best parts of those movies were the early parts revolving around the hobbits and The Shire, and I feel (or at least hope) like these movies will be much closer to those sequences in spirit. So chin up - these could be quite good!



Spaldron
Rivendell


Aug 25 2012, 3:32am

Post #36 of 216 (4134 views)
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I'm not criticising though. [In reply to] Can't Post


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If you're going to criticize, at least get the story straight.


You get your story straight.

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 25 2012, 3:36am

Post #37 of 216 (4131 views)
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You stated [In reply to] Can't Post


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However I had a little trepidation at some of his character designs (like Thorin having antlers)...


That is worry, if not criticism, and you based it on an inaccurate description. Thorin was never described as "having antlers" under GDT's design.



Spaldron
Rivendell


Aug 25 2012, 3:38am

Post #38 of 216 (4046 views)
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GDT is obviously a fantasy fan [In reply to] Can't Post


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Besides, if memory serves, he was no great Tolkien or fantasy fan before being recruited for this project


That's where you're wrong. He may not have been a Tolkien'ite but considering nearly every film to his name so far has been a fantasy film or fantastical in nature is indicative of GDT being a huge fan of fantasy cinema.

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 25 2012, 3:40am

Post #39 of 216 (3996 views)
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Agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Where oh where could one possibly get the impression that GDT is not a fantasy fan?

In any event, I don't really care if a director is a fantasy fan or not. I simply want them to treat the material seriously, and make an excellent film out of it. In general, I actually would prefer a director who is not locked into a specific genre.


Spaldron
Rivendell


Aug 25 2012, 3:42am

Post #40 of 216 (4157 views)
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He was described as having antlers.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...by virtually every movie publication available at the time so I'm not going to take the blame if (presumably) trusted media sources were, in the end incorrect. This is the first I've heard of the antler thing being untrue.

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 25 2012, 3:43am

Post #41 of 216 (4027 views)
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one point... [In reply to] Can't Post

Howe and Lee both great Tolkien artists BUT they are being paid by Peter Jackson to give him HIS vision of Middle Earth not Tolkien's. So it really doesn't matter how great of Tolkien artist's they are, PJ is paying them to give his interpretation of Tolkien nothing more. An artist has to please the boss or they wont keep working, they are after all Peter Jackson's films not Lee's or Howe's. Wink


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Aug 25 2012, 3:45am

Post #42 of 216 (4093 views)
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If it was up to me... [In reply to] Can't Post

the answer to that question would be NO. If only PJ had asked me Wink, I would have told him to shoot in traditional 35mm. Unsure



"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Aug 25 2012, 3:46am)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 25 2012, 3:50am

Post #43 of 216 (4049 views)
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No they didn't [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is exactly what was reported in the New Yorker, where the story originated:


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Even the major characters of “The Hobbit” bore del Toro’s watermark. In one sketch, the dwarf Thorin, depicted in battle, wore a surreal helmet that appeared to be sprouting antlers. “They’re thorns—his name is Thorin, after all,” he said.


And while we're at it, let's dispel the idea that Smaug was made to look just like an axe, and highlight that this was only evident as a silhouette, if you were looking down on his flying form:


Quote

I paused at what looked like an image of a double-bitted medieval hatchet. “That’s Smaug,” del Toro said. It was an overhead view: “See, he’s like a flying axe.” Del Toro thinks that monsters should appear transformed when viewed from a fresh angle, lest the audience lose a sense of awe. Defining silhouettes is the first step in good monster design, he said. “Then you start playing with movement. The next element of design is color. And then finally—finally—comes detail. A lot of people go the other way, and just pile up a lot of detail.”


This is where all the rumors came from regarding Del Toro's "inappropriate designs" and the actual descriptions were far less alarming than the rumors (naturally).

Look, GDT was not my first choice either. He can be okay, but I find his vision a little "small" and "claustrophobic" if you know what I mean. But I do not think it good practice to propagate rumors about his designs that are not based in reality.


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Aug 25 2012, 3:50am)


Spaldron
Rivendell


Aug 25 2012, 4:13am

Post #44 of 216 (4054 views)
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I don't read the New Yorker [In reply to] Can't Post


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Look, GDT was not my first choice either. He can be okay, but I find his vision a little "small" and "claustrophobic" if you know what I mean. But I do not think it good practice to propagate rumors about his designs that are not based in reality.


I'm not propagating anything, I'm merely recounting what I read in several movie magazines at the time including Empire. I don't read the New Yorker so am not aware of the thorn quote. All I know is from what I've read from reputable sources (and not some internet rumour) so I can't be blamed if said publications are incorrect.

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Aug 25 2012, 4:23am

Post #45 of 216 (4064 views)
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There might have been some confusion because of [In reply to] Can't Post

GDT's King Balor from Hellboy 2 released shortly after he was named Hobbit director (and started posting here).

Really, is this not an interesting design for a king?



In any event Thorin didn't have antlers, it was suggested that his helmet might have thorn-like antler adornment. Which again is not all that out there -- one of my favourite Bretonnia Knights (Warhammer) has stag horns on his helmet (at far right):



I think I've seen antlers on Samurai helmets as well...

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on 0 secs ago)

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Aug 25 2012, 4:24am)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 25 2012, 4:29am

Post #46 of 216 (4120 views)
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The King Balor design is excellent [In reply to] Can't Post

If Thorin with his BoFA armor looks anything like that (including the antlered helm), I would be happy.

Ancient royalty wore all kinds of outlandish headgear. I don't see why Middle Earth needs to be all drab leather and washed-out earth tones.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Aug 25 2012, 4:31am

Post #47 of 216 (4040 views)
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They did post links to the article right here on TheOneRing.net [In reply to] Can't Post

so even if you don't read the NewYorker you could have seen that article. But, all right, you missed it. It happens. Now all has been clarified.

In Reply To

Quote
Look, GDT was not my first choice either. He can be okay, but I find his vision a little "small" and "claustrophobic" if you know what I mean. But I do not think it good practice to propagate rumors about his designs that are not based in reality.


I'm not propagating anything, I'm merely recounting what I read in several movie magazines at the time including Empire. I don't read the New Yorker so am not aware of the thorn quote. All I know is from what I've read from reputable sources (and not some internet rumour) so I can't be blamed if said publications are incorrect.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 25 2012, 4:34am

Post #48 of 216 (4043 views)
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Understood [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't mind that you missed it. I miss things all the time (though I try to find those things if I need to reference them while making a case...).

However, you then responded with "you get your story straight," as if you refused to admit that your description was inaccurate. hat is what bothered me about it.

In any event, you missed it, and that's that. In any case, GDT's designs were likely to upset some people. He wasn't my first choice, but I still yearn to escape PJ's vision...


Spaldron
Rivendell


Aug 25 2012, 4:35am

Post #49 of 216 (4080 views)
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It missing one article a crime? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
They did post links to the article right here on TheOneRing.net so even if you don't read the NewYorker you could have seen that article. But, all right, you missed it. It happens.


Bit patronising no? I only joined TORn last year so I probably did miss it.

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 25 2012, 4:43am

Post #50 of 216 (4019 views)
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But that's not the point [In reply to] Can't Post

The point is that you said, definitively and without a qualifier, that GDT designed Thorin "with antlers."

If you weren't 99.9% sure of that, it would have been best to preface your statement with "I think I heard..." or something to that effect.

In any event, water under the bridge. No big deal.

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