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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Greenbooks guest post: in defense of a Hobbit trilogy
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SirDennisC
Half-elven


Aug 5 2012, 3:32am

Post #76 of 112 (635 views)
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Hee hee [In reply to] Can't Post

following Monteath's theory that the movies will mirror the structure of LOTR (an idea I have said is sound) you just made me realize something...

Bilbo being out of place, then unconscious at Bo5A is a reflection of Merry being out of place, then unconscious at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Though technically I guess, it is not a reflection but the source of an echo. Now I wonder how exactly it will happen? A Sting from behind at Sauron while wearing the Ring?


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Aug 5 2012, 3:35am

Post #77 of 112 (624 views)
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Ah yes, but no (living) wife as far as I've heard [In reply to] Can't Post

... they added a single father to appeal to a not insignificant number of fans. Wink


Yngwulff
Gondor


Aug 5 2012, 3:40am

Post #78 of 112 (608 views)
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Could imply [In reply to] Can't Post

A wife or a widower also true.
Lots of NZ extras though ...


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 5 2012, 4:04am

Post #79 of 112 (637 views)
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Frodo being meant to have the Ring.. [In reply to] Can't Post

is not an invention by PJ; it is pure Tolkien, merely taken from one spot in the novel and spoken at a different point of the story in the movie. It's from the chapter The Shadow of the Past, in which Gandalf tells Frodo in some detail of the story of the Ring and Gollum. Here is the quote in context:

Quote
"It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him."
"What, just in time to meet Bilbo?" said Frodo. "Wouldn't an orc have suited it better?"
"It is no laughing matter," said Gandalf. "Not for you. It was the strangest event in the whole history of the Ring so far: Bilbo's arrival just at that time, and putting his hand on it, blindly, in the dark."
"There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to its master. It had slipped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor Deagol, and he was murdered; and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him. It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire!"
"Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought."
"It is not", said Frodo, "though I am not sure that I understand you."



Regarding Tauriel, I don't mind her being a created character but I will be very unhappy indeed if she's there merely to be an object of romance, especially one which takes significant time in all three movies. For all the discussion we've had lately about the idea of gender representation in The Hobbit, the perceived benefit of having another woman would be significantly hindered by making her an excuse for a love story which has no real (or necessary) ties to the story. Besides, back when Tauriel was Itaril and the casting call description was circulated, it said that she was in love with an Elf lord (prime candidates being Legolas or Lindir), not a dwarf or a human. So if that bit was accurate and stayed part of the character, Fili, Kili and Bard would not be candidates. I'm very much hoping that the romance angle was dropped with the name change and she'll just be a featured supporting character. So in this case, I'm hoping you're wrong.

And last but definitely not least, welcome to TORN! It's always good to have a new voice in the mix. Smile

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Phibbus
Rohan


Aug 5 2012, 4:05am

Post #80 of 112 (611 views)
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Prophecy and Tauriel [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Unfortunately 'Prophecy' as a device does not feature much in Tolkien's writings - IMHO the closest we get to it in LotR is the Mirror of Galadriel, while Elrond's many visions of the possible future most of which showed Sauron's victory and Arwen/Aragorn unconsummated are a PJ addition .


I suspect Jackson will be making something of this bit..

Quote

Surely you don't disbelieve the prophecies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself? You don't really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benefit?

although, admittedly, it is not a terribly developed theme (at least so blatantly stated) in the book.

As to Tauriel, I had actually thought about the Beren-Luthien angle with Bard, as you describe, but I suspect it might be smack a little too much of "sacrilege," even for this writing team (and ughhh... there's that "Boys' Own" comparison, again.) I also suspect a romantic angle might not be so overtly the purpose of the character. I have my suspicions that many of the "prodigal son" tropes that the piece predicts for Bard might actually be pursued, rather, in the Tauriel character: e.g., she being the captain of the guard who allows (or actively abets) the escape, thus incurring the wrath of the Elvenking, and then making good with some derring-do by the end.

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.

(This post was edited by Phibbus on Aug 5 2012, 4:06am)


Plurmo
Rohan

Aug 5 2012, 4:21am

Post #81 of 112 (647 views)
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But LOTR movie Bilbo has no connection with dwarves at all. [In reply to] Can't Post

Except for a passing by mention of the Lonely Mountain there's no mention by Bilbo of his old and enduring connections with the Dwarves in LOTR. Adjusting the new trilogy to fit in with LOTR would be a clever thing indeed, but the emotional link between Bilbo and the Dwarves is completely absent in LOTR and at least in this regard no adjustment can be reached.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Aug 5 2012, 4:24am

Post #82 of 112 (630 views)
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Unless Kili is revealed to be half-elven... [In reply to] Can't Post

otherwise a well reasoned response. Oh and joking aside (much joking I'm almost ashamed to admit) I do not believe Tauriel is being included just for a romantic angle, though I won't be surprised if it is part of her arc.

You're really on a roll Silverlode. I've greatly enjoyed your posts of late (not to say I usually don't of course). Cool


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Aug 5 2012, 4:28am)


BeornBerserker
Lorien

Aug 5 2012, 4:29am

Post #83 of 112 (581 views)
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Gandalf picking Bilbo [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always felt there was always bit of divine guidance in many of Gandalf's decisions. He is after all an "angelic" being or equivalent that has been entrusted with a mission to advise and council the people of Middle Earth against the evil of Sauron. I would think it sufficient that if he felt moved to do something and was true to his calling that he should trust his intuition and act on it.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 5 2012, 4:33am

Post #84 of 112 (592 views)
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*snort* Well at least... [In reply to] Can't Post

the timeline precludes her being the legendary Took "fairy wife" ! Tongue

Thanks much for the compliment, Sir Dennis! I've been so busy lately I've spent my little online time just reading and trying to keep up with discussions. It's nice to have time to actually join in. Smile

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Aug 5 2012, 4:38am

Post #85 of 112 (587 views)
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I'll give you a big "Amen!" for that last paragraph. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm still very seriously considering sitting this one out at home, and just waiting for the DVD, if early reviews reveal that the Bo5A runs longer than I think I can endure. Unless I could sneak an inflatable pillow into the theater, and have someone wake me up when the battle's almost over... :/

**********************************


NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Aug 5 2012, 4:39am

Post #86 of 112 (616 views)
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Lucasian Structure [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
following Monteath's theory that the movies will mirror the structure of LOTR (an idea I have said is sound) you just made me realize something...

Bilbo being out of place, then unconscious at Bo5A is a reflection of Merry being out of place, then unconscious at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Though technically I guess, it is not a reflection but the source of an echo. Now I wonder how exactly it will happen? A Sting from behind at Sauron while wearing the Ring?


Concerning whether Bilbo is made to be conscious or not, which might havee more to do with Phibbus's comment about getting bonked and Indiana Jones, by the writers for the duration, let me suggest the Lucasian method of structuring the battle with Bilbo being unconscious in a manner a lot like Jar Jar Binks at the battle in The Phantom Menace. Jar Jar's ineptness, or rather clumsiness, cause some respectable damage despite his (and Lucas's) mental handicap. If Lucas were to write and direct The Hobbit for Jackson, and Bilbo remained unconscious, he would have Bilbo carried or dragged about the battle field and his very presence, with such things as being accidentally dumped off a stretcher and rolling down rocks, would cause avalanches and other cascade effects of objects and characters doing things to bring about the end of the battle. All because of Bilbo, our unconscious hero.

Look at what Marcus Brody did in Indiana Jones 4. He was more than unconscious, he was dead, and the bronze statue bearing his likeness at the college stopped a car of KGB agents. What a guy.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Aug 5 2012, 4:42am)


Sunflower
Valinor

Aug 5 2012, 4:56am

Post #87 of 112 (581 views)
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Desolation of Smaug [In reply to] Can't Post

LOL! I've just been "out-conspiracy-theoried". I take my hat off to you, sir!TongueLaugh

And FANTASTIC article above...Film 2 plays out here pretty much as I thought it would, right down to the Rohan/Lake-town, Theoden/Master, Eomer/Bard, and Helm's Deep/Endof Smaug scenarios..plus the title there's an operatic quality to the thing, that Lucas rarely achived in his Prequels (Tatooine scenes in 2 being a rare succes in this regard.)


In addition: let me speculate on the title The Desolation of Smaug. Some people don't like that title, thinking it too Lucas-y. I think it is not only BRILLAINT but the only possibe title. How?

Well, "desolation" can mean any number of things, depending on the context it is used in. It has so many layers.

--First what everyone immediately thinks of when they hear the title: on the Map: the "Desolation of Smaug" being the actual physical evidence of his destructive passing: the ruins of Dale, the scorched earth, ie the actual Destruction Zone, whic we will glimpses of in flashback and as the Company walks past it.
--The "desolation" also can refer to the KIND of world Smaug left behind: where hope no longer exists, ie hope for the future. In all the lands that he has touched, the great Worm has left woe in the hearts of all: Men, Dwarves..and in their wariness, even in the hearts of Thranduils' folk in Mirkwood. This part of M-e as passed from "innocence" to frightful Experience. In that terrible knowledge, there is the Desolation of newfound maturity.
--"Deslolation" can then be a spiritual state, affecting and exhibited by all the peoples that Smaug has touched. The greed of the Dwarves for their lost treasure (and what this does later to Thorin and the rest, but esp Thorins character); the corruption of the Master and Laketown's inner circle; a despair initially exhibited by the people of Dale akin to what we see first in Edoras...no "more cheer than a graveyard." I expect a similarmood among its people to previal when the company enters the city.
--finally..(and this is getting existential here I admit): how might Smuag himself be "desolate"? He appear to be on top of the world, but I'm sure Tolkien would have us beleive that he was a happier creature before he got bogged down by his "sickness". Having responsibilty for, and having to pretect, such a Hoard carries a personal price, no? If lust for the Jewels borught the Noldor down, then even such as Smuag can be brought from bad to infinetely worse, by his greed.


So "desolation of Smaug" exists on so many levels, and this desolation permeates Film 2 like a sponge.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Aug 5 2012, 4:57am)


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Aug 5 2012, 4:56am

Post #88 of 112 (592 views)
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*heh* I can't complain [In reply to] Can't Post

about Indy4 spoilers because I made a choice to stay home during its theatrical run, and have walked out of any room in which it was playing on the TV! =) For me, it does not exist. There are only three.

*sigh* I hope The Hobbit does not suffer a similar fate.

**********************************


NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011


Phibbus
Rohan


Aug 5 2012, 5:06am

Post #89 of 112 (577 views)
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Unconscious Bilbo [In reply to] Can't Post

I have this theory that Bilbo is unconscious during Bo5A because Beorn is one of his alter-egos. His being absent when Beorn is present in bear-form on the battlefield directly mirrors the tale of Bothvar Bjarki, who goes into a trance when the bear-form is present to win the day. In The History of The Hobbit, Rateliff makes the connection with the Bothvar Story (and Tolkien's keen interest in it) when discussing the main Medwed/Beorn chapters, but never (I think) notices the unconsciousness connection at Bo5A.

Interesting to note from your examples how these motifs keep getting reinterpreted right up to the current day.

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.

(This post was edited by Phibbus on Aug 5 2012, 5:10am)


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Aug 5 2012, 5:11am

Post #90 of 112 (584 views)
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Personal Canon [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel the same way about (at least) Alien 3 and the brutal, unimaginative, and utterly wasteful writers' snuff of Newt, Bishop and Hicks. A total waste and thumbing of the nose at what Aliens built. I was glad to hear James Cameron feels the same way. It does not exist for me but, unfortunately, I went to see it unknowing. In my personal canon, all four make it back to Earth, Newt is the salvation of Ripley, and Uncle Hicks visits often.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Aug 5 2012, 5:15am)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 5 2012, 5:36am

Post #91 of 112 (548 views)
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Nonsense [In reply to] Can't Post

The LOTR films broke all sorts of cinematic conventions, and did perfectly fine.

The tired formulas you deem necessary for success are simply examples of lazy, LCD thinking.

Though I do not think PJ is a great filmmaker, he does not strike me as the type that would find it necessary to dumb things down to that level.

Great artists create new tracks and pathways, rather than simply slavishly following the old.

Let's hope none of your suggestions bear any fruit.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 5 2012, 5:42am

Post #92 of 112 (567 views)
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But is it a good idea [In reply to] Can't Post

To reinforce that similar structure?

I mean, do the filmmakers want viewers to think: hey, I've seen this story before?

Sounds like a potentially disastrous decision.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Aug 5 2012, 7:06am

Post #93 of 112 (554 views)
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The structure yes [In reply to] Can't Post

but exact recreations of scenes/situations that came before, no. However, similarity is not necessarily undesirable altogether.

(I'm not sure the following makes sense. I've spent almost an hour beating it into shape... so bear with me please.)

Leaving aside judgements about the quality of LOTR's structure, building the three Hobbit films in a way similar to LOTR is their best chance of achieving a cohesive whole out of 6 films. They have said all along that they wanted to make a continuous narrative. Yet if the story is anything like what Monteath describes, it seems so convoluted now it will be remarkable if they can achieve such a goal.

Without the additional material, The Hobbit was already very much a prototype of The Lord of the Rings (minus an elf princess, Aragorn being split between Bard and Thorin, and so on). However, the additional material and breaking The Hobbit in three, threaten to disrupt the similarity that was naturally present between the two stories. (On the other hand, being able to draw parallels between Arwen/Eowyn and Tauriel may be their main rationale for including her.) As well, and perhaps most importantly, there is the difference between formats to overcome.

Replacing through structure the similarity that may have been lost in expanding, splitting, and filming The Hobbit in hyper real 3D is their best hope at this point -- though I'm sure the soundtrack and some of the sets will go a long way in this regard.

Besides, LOTR's structure worked well enough for them the first time around... and don't most mainstream movies follow a similar structure/pattern anyway?

Oh, in answer to your question, I think tapping into the nostalgia that surrounds LOTR has been a big part of their strategy all along (obviously).


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Aug 5 2012, 7:14am)


Lurker in the Dark
The Shire

Aug 5 2012, 7:20am

Post #94 of 112 (527 views)
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Contents [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Welcome to TORn Lurker!


Thank you.


In Reply To
Or, do you think the film makers will somehow make the case that the Ring drew Bilbo into the adventure as a harmless courier in order to deliver itself to Sauron (who it seems will be at the Bo5A)?


I'll confess it's been a while since I read "The Hobbit", and I always found it rather disappointing compared with LotR etc.

If PJ's Hobbit is, like Theoden, going to be able to stand proudly alongside its predecessors I think it can't have any loose ends - and to me the biggest loose end has always been why Gandalf selects Bilbo, a Hobbit, to go on Thorin's quest. I mean, why? Bilbo isn't a burglar and Hobbits, as we know, aren't adventurous. And as I've argued, it's obvious Gandalf didn't know that Bilbo was going to find the One Ring on the way yet without it the expedition would have ended in disaster in the Goblin tunnels, pretty near the beginning of the book as I remember!

If I were writing it the one screamingly obvious factor is that both Bilbo and Frodo allow Gollum to live when surely anyone else - elf, dwarf or man let alone orc etc. - would have killed him at the first opportunity almost without thought. It is that act of forebearance, of compassion, that is ultimately the Ring's downfall for had either Bilbo or Frodo killed Gollum Frodo would at Mt. Doom have claimed the Ring for himself and Sauron would have won.

So it only makes sense to me that some 'force for good' trying to counter Sauron is aware that only through the hands of a Hobbit is there any hope that the One Ring can be destroyed, so must bring a Hobbit to where it is. Yet whatever that force is it cannot act directly, so gives some sort of 'hint' (I'm guessing to Galadriel) that it's important for a hobbit to go on Thorin's quest which she and Gandalf choose to act on.

I suggest it's only at the time of Bilbo's party, when Gandalf first suspects what Bilbo's ring really is, that he fully realises the import of Galadriel's 'prophecy'. And why he later tells Frodo that he was 'meant' to have the Ring which gives him hope.

To satisfy me I need more than 'a hunch' on Gandalf's part that sends Bilbo on the quest. I think Gandalf needs to know that Bilbo must go or the world will fall, even if he has no idea why Bilbo must go and so must trust to luck that Bilbo will do whatever it's necessary that he does do.

I don't regard the One Ring as having any sentience of its own, and thus it doesn't make plans or try to influence events directly. Evil can sense it and be drawn to it - eg the Black Riders - but although corrupting it is essentially passive and so cannot look to 'use' Bilbo as you suggest.


Lurker in the Dark
The Shire

Aug 5 2012, 7:45am

Post #95 of 112 (535 views)
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Tauriel [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
[ I also suspect a romantic angle might not be so overtly the purpose of the character.


I would agree that Taurel/Bard doesn't seem obvious yet:

1. Arwen/Aragon could have been omitted from the film trilogy - after all it's only in the appendices of the book. But it's so powerful in the film that I can't see PJ not having a romance of some sort to add that whole dimension.

2. For my part the idea of an elf/elf romance makes me cringe. I mean, it would be so 'proper' - almost emotionless. Certainly nothing I could relate to. And apart from Galadriel, Tauriel is the only candidate for the female side of it. Sure Bard has a son, but we don't know if his wife is still alive and if she isn't...

3. I'm not suggesting a rerun of Beren and Luthien - as a counter to the Aragorn/Arwen story Beren could fall hopelessly in love with Tauriel but denying it because he's sure she will have nothing to do with him. Indeed it isn't it returned until after he has 'proved himself' by killing Smaug echos of Beren here. I can even see a hapless, bemused Martin Freeman playing Cupid!

(This post was edited by Lurker in the Dark on Aug 5 2012, 7:52am)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 5 2012, 5:15pm

Post #96 of 112 (469 views)
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Makes sense [In reply to] Can't Post

But did I miss something? Who is Monteath, and what has he described?


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Aug 5 2012, 10:09pm

Post #97 of 112 (423 views)
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Are you messing with me? [In reply to] Can't Post

Monteath is the guest author of this thread, the person whose ideas we're talking about -- I would have used OP but I actually remembered the person's name for once.

Angelic


TheBeerBaron
Rivendell

Aug 6 2012, 6:51am

Post #98 of 112 (369 views)
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I just had a terrible thought... [In reply to] Can't Post

There's no way that Tauriel's love interest might be Bilbo right? I mean he is the hero of the book in some ways and he might chance upon her in the elven halls, and sparks fly etc.

Then they meet again when Bilbo steals the Arkenstone and goes down to bargain. She would of course have to die so as to explain her absence in lotr (but that seems rather inevitable).

In some ways this could reflect how his tookish side is growing stronger and so being drawn to the elves. Almost Freudian.

Don't get me wrong; I'd hate to see this happen, but you never know. Who else could her love interest possibly be?

-Bard would be too much like Aragorn-Arwen
-Legolas is out of the question apparently
-Thorin and dwarfes seems unlikely unless she bewitches and then breaks someone's heart which would give more meaning to film-Gimli's line at the council of Elrond "never trust an elf" (I love that small-minded bigotry he espouses, it always makes me laugh as its so silly)

Who else could it possibly be? Terrible thought I know!


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 6 2012, 7:14am

Post #99 of 112 (374 views)
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Tauriel and Kili [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www-images.theonering.org/...lFilm-Summer2012.jpg


TheBeerBaron
Rivendell

Aug 6 2012, 7:19am

Post #100 of 112 (356 views)
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I thought we figured that was in jest [In reply to] Can't Post

Didn't we? I've been lurking for ages, but finally decided to start posting btw.

If not then I guess that settles it. Will it be requited though do you think?

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