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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Greenbooks guest post: in defense of a Hobbit trilogy
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Aug 4 2012, 3:09pm

Post #26 of 112 (729 views)
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Thanks VF [In reply to] Can't Post

I was relying upon a faulty memory. I am glad for the correction. I would stand by Peter not directing any more Middle-earth movies.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Aug 4 2012, 3:10pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 4 2012, 3:11pm

Post #27 of 112 (721 views)
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He said that about The Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I was relying upon a faulty memory. I am glad for the correction. I would stand by Peter not directing any more Middle-earth movies.



And he's just bumped it up to 3 films! If he has another 10 years Middle-earthless, I reckon he would Wink


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Aug 4 2012, 3:12pm

Post #28 of 112 (756 views)
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I would be shocked if Jackson directed any further Middle-earth films after this [In reply to] Can't Post

I really don't think he will go there.

Whether the studios try to milk the "franchise" further I cannot say, other than "I hope not."

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Aug 4 2012, 3:20pm

Post #29 of 112 (691 views)
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Well done [In reply to] Can't Post

A great summary. Monteath got a little carried away with his 'extras' stuff, but his basic structure for the Hobbit trilogy clearly illustrates why three was always better than two.

Serious issues involving pacing and multiple climaxes for Film Two evaporate when viewed as a three act play.

(This post was edited by Black Breathalizer on Aug 4 2012, 3:20pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 4 2012, 3:22pm

Post #30 of 112 (713 views)
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I can't imagine more films after this either. [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe that should be "I hope" as well, rather than "I can't imagine". Crazy


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Aug 4 2012, 3:45pm

Post #31 of 112 (735 views)
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In all of this I hope that "The Hobbit" does not get lost. [In reply to] Can't Post

All of this history and context could drown the story.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Aug 4 2012, 3:50pm

Post #32 of 112 (731 views)
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Again well-written article, however [In reply to] Can't Post

If one has to do this much talking, explaining, defending, and constructing of contrivances, it's probably not a good idea. Tongue

Also, "wrapping up/setting up" multiple "storylines" does not a strong third movie make...no one save but the most die-hard fans are going to want to see Balin going to Moria, Aragorn hunting Gollum, ETC in a 90-min epilogue to TH. That's not a story. Additionally, large chucks of text on the internet do equal lengthy, engaging, or valuable spans of screentime - one has to keep in mind what's actually inherent cinematic. Unsure

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


JayFank
Registered User

Aug 4 2012, 4:06pm

Post #33 of 112 (735 views)
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Seems perfect [In reply to] Can't Post

With the way that is mapped out, it is ideal for a trilogy. I was uncertain at first dragging it out, but how it is mapped out above makes perfect sense and seems to parallel very well with LOTR.


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 4 2012, 4:14pm

Post #34 of 112 (684 views)
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Since it's been described as a third Hobbit film [In reply to] Can't Post

I doubt we're going to get an extended epilogue showing the events after The Hobbit, and up until The Lord of the Rings. Perhaps in an EE, but I'm not sure if there is place for it in the film. Unless people have read or watched the books or films, the hunt for Gollum is going to seem a strange way to end the trilogy.

And from the other thread, you know I disagree with you about film 3. Tongue


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Aug 4 2012, 4:18pm

Post #35 of 112 (683 views)
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I wonder what other work of Tolkien's could successfully be adapted to film...? [In reply to] Can't Post

The Sil. is a history, not really a narrative...and not sure how you'd adapt most of it anyway. CoH, again, is a biography and not really a story - Turin, our chief protagonist, has no goal, no real antagonist (save Morgoth in a very round-about way), no central obstacle to overcome, no real growth as a character (from moody & doomed to more moody & doomed.)

The Luthien & Beren could make a fun film, and is benefited by Sauron being one of the chief antagonists (linking it to LotR and TH). Ditto the Fall of Gondolin, though it would seem rather unrelated to the rest of the series...we already saw how the Last Alliance turned out.

Several years back, someone posted an outline for a "Fall of Numenor" movie, which IMO, seemed like the most interesting option for a post-TH Tolkien movie:

http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/num-intro.htm

Also, someone on the board (Daniel?) recently mentioned Aragorn's travels in Rhun and Harad with his stumbling on some "wayward Tooks" and Blue Wizards...would enjoy seeing the movie as well, though it would be mostly fan-fiction! Wink

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Aug 4 2012, 4:50pm

Post #36 of 112 (708 views)
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The strength of the proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

is found in the likelihood that this is a true statement:


Quote
In other words, the story structures of the LotR and this likely Hobbit trilogy are almost identical, with similar character arcs, similar story beats, and similar secondary antagonists (and the same primary antagonist).


Back in one of the title speculation threads, I made a similar argument, though without any of the depth or flourish of this article (and my title speculations were off). In my opinion, this is the only rational (and only one I can get behind) for doing what PJ is doing to The Hobbit.

I find it interesting too the amount of emphasis Monteath places on the Frodo/old Bilbo (aka framing) device. I can't help but wonder if we won't be treated to occasional interjections from them:

At the encounter with the trolls:
Bilbo: The dwarves don't get eaten by the trolls at this time.
Frodo: What?
Frodo: William doesn't get them. I'm explaining to you because you look nervous.
Frodo: I wasn't nervous. Maybe I was a little bit "concerned" but that's not the same thing.

When Kili meets Tauriel:
Frodo: Is this a kissing book?
Bilbo: Wait, just wait.
Frodo: Well, when does it get good?
Bilbo: Keep your shirt on, and let me read.

When Bard downs Smaug:
Frodo: See didn't I tell you he'd never miss with that arrow.
Bilbo: Yes you're very smart. Shut up.


Just a note of thanks to "News from Bree" for bringing us two excellent articles this week. Given the amount of plot (as described by Monteath) for film one, I'm not ruling out the possibility, as MrCere argued, that film one might be ended well before the barrels. This would save Tauriel as well as Bard for film 2 (Eowyn and Eomer). Perhaps they intend for Tauriel and Bard -- a single father? talk about trying to appeal to demographics -- to develop a relationship, thereby introducing a love triangle (with Kili as a third) similar to the Arwen/Aragorn/Eowyn arc from LOTR?


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Aug 4 2012, 4:54pm)


Bladerunner
Gondor


Aug 4 2012, 4:50pm

Post #37 of 112 (668 views)
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Two Disagreements.... [In reply to] Can't Post

The discussion of Glamdring and Orcrist should have more to do with the history of the elves (Gondolin) than of the dwarves....


In Reply To
Elrond will undoubtedly enlighten the Company on the origin of the swords they found in the trolls' hoard. In the book, he explains that they are famous blades that were used against the goblins in previous centuries. Probably using a wide eyed, questioning Bilbo as a device, there will here be historical flashbacks that reveal the depths of the hatred between the Dwarves and the Goblins, culminating in the ancient battle of Azanulbizar, and the role of Azog the Goblin in triggering that war.


I disagree with increasing Sauron's involvement in the story. The true antagonist in Film 3 (which I prefer to be called Battle of Five Armies) are not the goblins/Necromancer etc., but the bickering between the free peoples and the faults of the individual characters, and their abilities to overcome their faults in the end. That should be the focus of Film 3. My preference is that "Sauron/Necromancer" not be involved in motivating or directing the orcs/goblins.


In Reply To
In other words, Sauron (referred to as the "Necromancer" in the Hobbit), and his minions the orcs/ goblins, are the real enemy....
which suggests that Jackson has made a change where Sauron, in perhaps a diminished form, leads (or at least directs) the goblin/orc/warg armies into battle, and perhaps some attention will be given to how Sauron manages to amass the army for the assault on the Lonely Mountain.



Hanzkaz
Rohan

Aug 4 2012, 4:51pm

Post #38 of 112 (684 views)
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Going by the Appendices - [In reply to] Can't Post

- I think the strongest contenders to be turned into movies are the War in the North and Witch-King of Angmar storylines. Of course this does depend on what happens in the 'non-Hobbit' parts of the Hobbit Trilogy.


If they want to go into more 'unknown' territory, they can feature stories involving the Blue Wizards or Eldarion (new actors, and so on - and you may get to see Viggo playing an older version of Aragorn). I also suspect that they've got a whole bunch of unused flora and fauna designs that they can use for movies set in the more unexplored regions of Middle-Earth (the warmer and icier regions, the seas, etc).. We've seen wargs, spiders, oliphaunts and eagles. Imagine Middle-Earth big cats and reptiles.


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Aug 4 2012, 4:57pm

Post #39 of 112 (646 views)
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I don't want Sauron to be at the Battle of Five Armies [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
My preference is that "Sauron/Necromancer" not be involved in motivating or directing the orcs/goblins.


- but I'd be OK with him sending a horde of Orcs and Goblins in the direction of the Lonely Mountain as payback for the White Council messing up (at least some of) his plans.


(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Aug 4 2012, 5:03pm)


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Aug 4 2012, 5:10pm

Post #40 of 112 (628 views)
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Certain Amount Of Tme [In reply to] Can't Post

I had the same unanswered question both times you've mentioned this recently.

What is a "certain amount of time?"


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Aug 4 2012, 5:11pm

Post #41 of 112 (628 views)
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Would love to see a story dealing with the explored regions of ME... [In reply to] Can't Post

and the Blue Wizards! Probably would never happen, bit still, would be exciting to see...Wink

A War in the North movie could work if done well, IMO, in a way that isn't LotR-lite.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Bladerunner
Gondor


Aug 4 2012, 5:13pm

Post #42 of 112 (614 views)
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I'd prefer that the killings of the Azog, the Great Goblin, and Smaug would be enough motivation for teh Goblins and Wargs.... [In reply to] Can't Post

If the Necromancer is shown to also influence them, I'd almost prefer that it be to do the opposite. i.e.- the Necromancer attempts to convince them to stay close and defend Dol Guldur, but there hatred of the Dwarves causes them to seek their own agenda and abandon the greater strategy for the short-term tactical gain, thus causing them to lose on both fronts.

I'd rather the Necromancer not be involved, but if he was I'd prefer to show the Orcs/Goblins acting independently and heeding their own counsel to their own folly.


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Aug 4 2012, 5:18pm

Post #43 of 112 (617 views)
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I wouldn't be surprised if Azog and his crew - [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
If the Necromancer is shown to also influence them, I'd almost prefer that it be to do the opposite. i.e.- the Necromancer attempts to convince them to stay close and defend Dol Guldur, but there hatred of the Dwarves causes them to seek their own agenda


- were intended to be reinforcements for Dol Guldur, but didn't get there on time - and then they received news of Smaug's death...


DesiringDragons
Lorien


Aug 4 2012, 5:19pm

Post #44 of 112 (611 views)
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"Killed by pirates is good" ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

Bravo, sir, and well-done! That was hilarious.

Perhaps the goblins can ride ROUSes instead of wargs. :)

*cough* More seriously, I can see your point about the possibility of Film 1 ending before Barrels Out of Bond. I hope it doesn't, because I think that's a perfect stopping-point, but there really is an awful lot of plot that comes before that, especially in this model. Although this model also seems to put the material from the appendices primarily in Films 2 and 3, which might make up the difference.


Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Aug 4 2012, 5:19pm

Post #45 of 112 (616 views)
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A third film's impact on Film 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

By focusing the second film on Smaug (ala Saruman in TTT), it allows the film makers to build the movie around the Bilbo - Smaug dynamic. Similar to Film One's Riddles in the Dark verbal dual between Bilbo and Gollum, Film Two will give us (I predict) a much expanded verbal exchange between Smaug and Bilbo.

Keep in mind that one of the reasons Jackson gave for being attracted to casting Benedict Cumberbatch as the dragon is because of the amazing chemistry that already exists between Cumberbatch and Freeman because of their work together in the BBC series, Sherlock.


Bladerunner
Gondor


Aug 4 2012, 5:23pm

Post #46 of 112 (590 views)
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I'd prefer a brief reference to the war in the north be included in the existing films than that a stand-alone film be made [In reply to] Can't Post

I would be content if the films incorporated very brief flash-forwards to those events.
Perhaps a scene of Gandalf with old Bilbo in Bag End paying homage to Thorin's vision by describing Dain and Brand's last stand in Dale (in lieu of the scene with Gandalf, Gimli and Pippin(?) in Minas Tirith as described in the appendices in Return of the King);
or Gandalf presciently anticipating those same events during Thorin's funeral.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Aug 4 2012, 5:30pm

Post #47 of 112 (611 views)
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Answer and perhaps another conspiracy theory [In reply to] Can't Post

The amount of time is usually about 10 years (I think that was the time limit for PJ to keep access to the agreement). In order to hang onto the film rights, within 10 years of the start of production (don't quote me) on the previous film there has to be at least evidence that an additional film is in the works, or maybe even completed. However I think a pre-vis or mock-up production video is counted as a finished film for these purposes.

Now the conspiracy theory:

If the above is true, this might have been the rational for hiring a director well before PJ was available to do the film himself (which I believe he always wanted to). I grant that this is a cynical point of view, but it has been in the back of my mind for some years now. My wife feels even more strongly than I do that this is why things transpired as they did.

Before ripping me a new one... consider that I framed the theory as a conspiracy myself.


Bladerunner
Gondor


Aug 4 2012, 5:34pm

Post #48 of 112 (568 views)
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That was the same point I was making in a previous post.... [In reply to] Can't Post

That Film 1 should push us as deep into the core story as practicable, and leave most of the supplemental material/backstory for Films 2 and 3:
http://newboards.theonering.net/..._time;so=DESC#475841


DesiringDragons
Lorien


Aug 4 2012, 5:38pm

Post #49 of 112 (554 views)
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Apologies for having missed that. [In reply to] Can't Post

There were a few days when the threads multiplied and expanded so quickly that I had trouble keeping up with everything.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 4 2012, 5:39pm

Post #50 of 112 (627 views)
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Back when Benedict Cumberbatch [In reply to] Can't Post

first made the comment about having something to do with the Bof5A in January, I speculated one way in which that might happen without him being physically present. I'll quote it here for ease of discussion in this conversation, but if you want to read the previous conversation you'll find it here.


Quote
My current theory is that the Necromancer organizes the goblins and sends the bats to the Bof5A as a diversion for himself, not because of a connection with Smaug. We know that the rabble of goblins and wargs were stirred up by the passage of the dwarves through the mountain and it's not unbelievable that they would follow and attack them, but they would have had to either go around Mirkwood or pass through. If they pass through, they'd be most likely avoid Thranduil's territory and to pass near Dol Guldur, where the Necromancer and the White Council are facing off. It's possible that something that happens in the attack on Dol Guldur makes Gandalf aware that the goblin/warg army is headed to Dale. Perhaps the Necromancer organizes and uses the goblins, wargs and bats as part of his feint strategy: they go north while he sneaks south to Mordor? The other thing that bolsters this view is the bats - they're never mentioned prior to the battle, and we didn't encounter them in the Goblin-king's halls, so what brings them? My guess is that the Necromancer uses bats like Saruman later uses crebain. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some bat spies at a few earlier key points of the story, and then see them sent off to gather more goblins for the battle.

Whatever happens, it certainly sends Gandalf hurrying off to warn the dwarves, arriving just in time for the dwarf wall standoff and just ahead of the approaching goblin army. I wonder, I wonder....if Beorn goes with Gandalf to fight at Dol Guldur and then comes with, or simply gets word of the goblin army passing by and follows them to arrive in time for the battle?

With this scenario, we might easily get scenes of the Necromancer orchestrating battle plans without actually appearing to fight in the Bof5A himself. And I certainly hope we won't see that. So far, we've only heard that BC is doing voice acting and motion capture. I don't think we've heard anything about weapons training. Even if it were only motion-capture battling, if he fights himself he would have needed to be trained for a certain fighting style....at least, that's my hopeful interpretation of the situation.



Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories

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