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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"Three Films" News will have No Effect on Film One
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Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Aug 4 2012, 12:51am

Post #51 of 120 (601 views)
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Conspiracy = Movie Public Relations 101 [In reply to] Can't Post

DanielLB wrote: I think the possibility of a third film probably arose months ago among the production team and the studio - not last month when a "rumour" appeared at Comic-Con. I suspect the the rumour was planted deliberately.

You won't convince me that a third film wasn't in the back of everyone's mind from the outset. The question was how many hours of quality footage were they getting. Once the film makers were into filming the second film, I think it became increasingly clear that a third film was a very viable option.

The notion that I'm saying it was some 'vast Jackson conspiracy' is silly. It's simply moviemaking public relations in action and no different than a million other 'announcements' or 'secrets' about the films. Why have we seen each of the dwarves months before the first film but not peep at the Mayor of Laketown or Bard the Bowman? It's the same kind of deal.

Once PJ and the studios were ready to pull the trigger, the publicity side of the house took charge and orchestrated the roll out. I would bet the farm that DanielLB is exactly right, the "rumor" that surfaced at ComicCon was started by the studios and Wingnuts themselves.


Escapist
Gondor

Aug 4 2012, 1:01am

Post #52 of 120 (577 views)
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I think your reason (2) makes sense. [In reply to] Can't Post

And I think that the fact that they need extra filming done at a time well after the panic-point for fitting anything into the first film adds weight to your guess.

However, I suspect that any material that was removed in the process of editing film1 (however far along that got to) was not scribbled on, torched and left in a dumpster never to see the light of day again. And if they were pushing 3 hours for film1 after tough editing ... ... ... and they got the idea that they could go dumpster-diving to get the stuff that was cut ... ... ...

Show or do not show, there is no tell.


easterlingchief1
Rivendell


Aug 4 2012, 1:12am

Post #53 of 120 (600 views)
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At one point, the scenes at Minas Mrogul, Shelob's Tunnel, and the ruins of Isengard were at the end of The Two Towers [In reply to] Can't Post

I think everyone went into that film with an idea of where it ended, only to have this scenes moved to Return of the King.

Films are edited until the last possible moment. PJ in particular likes to edit until he can't possibly do it any longer. And entires scenes/sequences get moved around as a result. Just because he implied that the film 1 is currently more solid state than film 2 doesn't mean he won't tinker with film 1 some more. It's August, and he has until about mid-October/November to get this film to America to have in printed. That gives him lots to time to tweak it as sees fit.

If the news front eh past couple weeks has proved anything it's that anything can change on this project.


Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Aug 4 2012, 1:19am

Post #54 of 120 (577 views)
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Point of clarification.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Minas Morgul, Shelob's tunnel, and the ruins of Isengard were never planned to be at the end of the Two Towers theatrical release. The ruins of Isengard were planned for the EE of TTT but then were considered for ROTK theatrical release---and later nixed for the ROTK EE.


easterlingchief1
Rivendell


Aug 4 2012, 1:21am

Post #55 of 120 (607 views)
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I don't buy this for a second [In reply to] Can't Post

The edit of film one is most likely not "set." We're just entering August, meaning we have a little over 90 days until the film has to be delivered to WB (assuming the master prints need to be shipped to the States by late October or mid-November). There's tons of time to continue editing these films. If the special editions are any indication, PJ likes to edit until the eleventh hour, even going so far as to have new effects shots, music, and sound mixing done in the final weeks of post production if he thinks it's necessary. Heck, they could even have some of the cast return to NZ to shoot last minute pickups if they need to. What's to stop them tinkering with the content of the films?


Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Aug 4 2012, 1:36am

Post #56 of 120 (561 views)
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edits [In reply to] Can't Post

esterlingchief1 wrote: The edit of film one is most likely not "set." ...What's to stop them tinkering with the content of the films?

Nothing at all. But a rough cut of the film has been done. And if there was a chance the barrels wouldn't be in film one, we sure as heck wouldn't have seen a blog about it. That would have been saved until next summer.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Aug 4 2012, 1:42am

Post #57 of 120 (580 views)
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There ar no prints. [In reply to] Can't Post

It is a fully digital movie.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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easterlingchief1
Rivendell


Aug 4 2012, 1:55am

Post #58 of 120 (536 views)
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But that doesn't prove anything [In reply to] Can't Post

Studios and filmmakers alter films regardless of what's already been publicized. This happens all the time.

To use a recent example, the Spiderman reboot advertised the "untold story" of Peter Parker. Based on script leaks, this was supposed to be a subplot about how the bite front he mutated spider only triggered something in his DNA that allowed him to become Spiderman, a mutation that was implanted by his missing parents (ala Ang Lee's Incredible Hulk). Industry spies even claimed that early screening of the film put a great deal of emphasis on this subplot, and that preview audiences and the Sony Pictures execs hated it. But, when the film eventually reached theaters, this aspect of the narrative was largely subdued, largely because the execs ordered reshoots that excised most of it. And those pickups/re-edits happened within weeks of the film's release.

Closer to home, we have the LOTR Trilogy, where Jackson and CO frequently moved scenes intended for one film to the others. Just as an example, let's look at the Smeagol and Deagol scene that was eventually seen in ROTK. We know from Jackson, Boyens, and the editors of ROTK that this scene was originally supposed to be a flashback in The Two Towers. I even remember photos of this scene appearing in promotional materials for the second film. But, lo and behold, it got moved to ROTK because it didn't fit in the Two Towers.

Even though we've seen a lot of the barrels in the blogs, that doesn't means they will be in film 1. Barrels out of Bound is an iconic moment from the books, one that fans would be deeply curious about. It's a smart move to include them in the publicity for the film because it would pique Ringer's interests. That doesn't mean it's bound to stay in film 1. And frankly, it's not like revealing what parts of that sequence will look like is a big spoiler. Revealing what Dol Guldor/the Necromancer/Smaug would look like? Yes. Showing what the dwarves will look like int heir barrels? Not so much.

My point is BB, and forgive me for sounding cliche, nothing is set in stone. I get the feeling a lot of decisions were made in the marketing based on the fact that there would be two films. The moment WB and PJ decided to pursue three, there strategy has been re-written slightly. The same can be said about the final cut of the first film.


(This post was edited by easterlingchief1 on Aug 4 2012, 1:58am)


easterlingchief1
Rivendell


Aug 4 2012, 2:02am

Post #59 of 120 (543 views)
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Of course it was planted deliberately [In reply to] Can't Post

The rumblings of a third film started when Peter Jackson mentioned them at ComiCon. It doesn't get more deliberate than the director making a point about it during interviews with various geek-affiliated news outlets Wink


(This post was edited by easterlingchief1 on Aug 4 2012, 2:07am)


easterlingchief1
Rivendell


Aug 4 2012, 2:07am

Post #60 of 120 (527 views)
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Oh You know what I mean [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue

Anyways, the studio still needs to get a copy of the film to make prints/digital copies of it.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Aug 4 2012, 2:15am

Post #61 of 120 (512 views)
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Imprecise terminology leads to misunderstandings.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Lissuin
Tol Eressea


Aug 4 2012, 2:17am

Post #62 of 120 (530 views)
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Conspiracy theory / cynicism - same thing. [In reply to] Can't Post

When someone is convinced of intriguing, tricksy behaviour in others, there is a buzz that "reality" can't get through. Nothing anyone could say to the contrary would change the doubter's mind because they are so convinced of their own cleverness.

Dormouse says it best:

Quote
I find the idea that they have known since pre-production that this was three films but decided to keep it a secret is - well, just let's say far less believable than the alternative - that Peter Jackson is really in his stride now and full of ideas he can't fit into two films. Because that seems to be exactly how he works...


Your words:

Quote
Jackson and the studios have likely been privately discussing this since early in the shoot (or, more likely, since pre-production.)


There is a difference in a director thinking, "Wow! There's sure a lot of cool stuff we could be filming. Let's do as much as we can within the time we've got" and "Ok, everybody, we've got the green light for two films, but I'm actually going to throw everything into chaos two years down the road and ask for three - but the studios are all in on this, too." But you will be able to explain this to yourself as well, so this is my last comment on this, truly, very silly idea.

I want to go on record saying on this thread:

Take the known integrity of a person into account before attributing behaviour to them from your own fantasies.


Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Aug 4 2012, 2:17am

Post #63 of 120 (538 views)
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Barrels in Film One [In reply to] Can't Post

easterlingchief1 wrote: My point is BB, and forgive me for sounding cliche, nothing is set in stone. I get the feeling a lot of decisions were made in the marketing based on the fact that there would be two films. The moment WB and PJ decided to pursue three, there strategy has been re-written slightly. The same can be said about the final cut of the first film.

I don't disagree. The movie is certainly not set in stone yet. However, I believe that the film makers knew they were going to make three films before the video blog about the barrels was released on PJ's facebook page. I do not believe that the film makers would have focused on the barrels if there was even the slightest chance they'd push those scenes off to Film 2. Isn't a Film Two footage moritorium the explanation Jackson gave blog viewers about why the blogs haven't featured Laketown?

For all the talk about the length of Thorin and Company's journey, it isn't nearly as long as the Fellowship's journey to the Falls in FOTR. If PJ can get Frodo to the Falls in three hours, he can get Bilbo and the dwarves inside their barrels before signing off.

There's still A LOT of story to tell after Bilbo and the dwarves hit Laketown.


Escapist
Gondor

Aug 4 2012, 2:24am

Post #64 of 120 (540 views)
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Assumptions of impossibility are interestingly pervasive. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's just way too early, anything before the spiders in Mirkwood would be too early. Imagine it... The Shire, Trolls, Rivendell/White Council, Mountain paths, goblins, Gollum, wolves and trees with perhaps a few flashbacks in there... compare that to all the stuff in FOTR. I doubt PJ would've put out that Scroll just a few days before announcing 3 films.


>Framing
Shire (including 2 songs if they want)
>Flashback
Trolls
Rivendell (including at least one song)
>As many flashbacks as they wish
White Council
Mountain Paths
Goblins (I think there was another song)
Gollum
>Framing

???
Wolves and Trees (including a song)
(and don't forget the eagles)

FOTR:
Intro
Party
Test the ring
Battle with Saruman
Travel to Bree
Prancing Pony
Travel to Rivendell
Battle with Nazgul
River scene
Council of Elrond
Travel and meet birds
Travel and fight snow
Moria gates
Moria tomb
Balrog
Lothlorien
River
Breaking of Fellowship

Maybe you are right. I counted 11 things on the list I made for The Hobbit (13 if the eagles are included) and 18 things on the list of what I remembered from the FOTR movie.
I guess it really all depends on just how much happens at the white council meeting, how much they use the opportunity to share tales in Rivendell, and how much backstory they introduce about the dwarves right away.
These backstory things can be shifted around between openings where they could fit giving lots of options about where to stop and how to pace things.

Show or do not show, there is no tell.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Aug 4 2012, 2:34am

Post #65 of 120 (519 views)
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I think I agree mostly. [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not think the idea came out of the blue, but neither do I think it was planned from the very beginning of production.

The more I think about it, I do think Film 1 will still end at barrels out of bond. I just don't think they'd have shown us any of that if it weren't in Film 1. It wasn't that much longer after the scroll picture and vlog 8 that the announcement came.

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast, as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower."


easterlingchief1
Rivendell


Aug 4 2012, 2:34am

Post #66 of 120 (537 views)
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I understand where you're coming from, but 2 things come to mind [In reply to] Can't Post

In terms of story beats, Thorin and Company's journey with BIlbo has just as many as Frodo and the Fellowship's journey to the falls, at least int he broad strokes (and if you leave out Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pipin's adventure to get to Rivendell). I think there's more than enough plot points between Bag End to midway through Mirkwood (post Spider attack) to make up one complete film.

Also, I can't help but feel that, if the barrels are kept in film 1, that there's NOT a whole lot of story from Laketown onward. At least there's very little for Bilbo to do. He's a passive player through much of the events in Laketown and the journey through the Desolation of Smaug. He only becomes active when he and the dwarves find the secret door, and even then he's mostly out of commission save for when he confronts Smaug. And in the back half of the book, his only major contribution to the plot is the snafu he makes by trying to use the Arkenstone to barter a peace treaty.

*I'm disregarding the Dol Guldor subplot at the moment because it doesn't directly concern the protagonist, who, in this case, is the character we're meant to care the most about.

Moving Barrels out of Bound (or is it Bond?) and the sequences in Thranduil's halls to Film 2 would mean Bilbo is much more active in the second film.


(This post was edited by easterlingchief1 on Aug 4 2012, 2:36am)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Aug 4 2012, 2:35am

Post #67 of 120 (544 views)
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When you've been paying careful attention as long as VTF has [In reply to] Can't Post

it is hard to ignore the pattern of behaviour that's emerged.

Think back to the LOTR extras, to the running joke PJ himself perpetrated about appeasing the studios, when not keeping them in the dark altogether. Insofar as the beginning of King Kong is autobiographical, Sir Peter told us he's a vaudevillian at heart.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Aug 4 2012, 2:37am)


easterlingchief1
Rivendell


Aug 4 2012, 3:10am

Post #68 of 120 (504 views)
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RE: your second point [In reply to] Can't Post

Like I said, I think the decision to make it three films instead of two has changed everything. What's more, the stuff they haven't shown/faded out in the vlogs is stuff that is going to make for a big reveal when they'r finally on screen/in the vlogs.

Dwarves going down river in barrels? We can picture that easily. They can show that to us in a FB video. What Dol Guldor, a location who appearance even Tolkien himself was very unclear about, will look like? That's a whole different matter.* That's as big as the reveal of what Smaug will look like.

*assuming that model in Vlog 7 was in fact part of a Dol Guldor sequence.


easterlingchief1
Rivendell


Aug 4 2012, 3:11am

Post #69 of 120 (525 views)
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Speculation and slander, sir. How dare you? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink


Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Aug 4 2012, 3:27am

Post #70 of 120 (518 views)
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What's common sense...and what isn't. [In reply to] Can't Post

Lissuin wrote: There is a difference in a director thinking, "Wow! There's sure a lot of cool stuff we could be filming. Let's do as much as we can within the time we've got" and "Ok, everybody, we've got the green light for two films, but I'm actually going to throw everything into chaos two years down the road and ask for three - but the studios are all in on this, too." ... this is my last comment on this, truly, very silly idea.

There is also a big difference between a common sense observation that the three film idea was a distinct possibility from the beginning of the shoot and characterizing it as some sort of "silly conspiracy theory."

The notion (given the huge mega-dollars involved) that there were no discussions between Jackson and the studios and between the film makers and the actors about the possibility of a third film prior to going into production on the films strains believability. That doesn't mean it was a 'done deal' by any stretch of the imagination. But I suspect all parties were aware that a third film was a possibility from the outset and would be greenlighted if Jackson and the studios felt they had enough quality footage after filming of Film Two began to make it happen.

In fact, I would bet that the original contracts all had a 'third film proviso' built into them. Keep in mind that the film makers were also well aware there would be huge bucks in Extended Editions so the production went into shooting with scripts that were intentionally long.

Since the third film wasn't 'official,' it needed to be kept private. It certainly doesn't mean that Jackson lacked 'integrity' because no hint of a third film was made (until the decision to green light it was already made.) As I stated earlier, this is just basic Movie public relations 101: don't spill the beans before it's time.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Aug 4 2012, 5:06am

Post #71 of 120 (488 views)
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Not if you think FOTR was rushed [In reply to] Can't Post

The long trek from the Shire to Amon Hen was far too much for one film, IMO. There is plenty that happens before Beorn's house to make a whole film.

In order for Bilbo's character arc to remain at the center of the films, I think Mirkwood will need to be saved for film 2. Otherwise, Bilbo will play a very small role in 2 and 3.

IMO, this makes the escape to the eagles' eyries the most likely ending for film 1.


Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Aug 4 2012, 6:35am

Post #72 of 120 (549 views)
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However appealing conspiracy theories may be [In reply to] Can't Post

they are true so rarely that we can safely discard them on sight

Our brains like a lot of things, a lot of things which the world would be far better off without.


..The land of long-forgotten name:
......no man may ever anchor near;
..No steering star his hope may aim,
......for nether Night its marches drear,
..And waters wide no sail may tame,
......with shores encircled dark and sheer.

..O! Haven where my heart would be!
......the waves beat upon thy bar
..For ever echo endlessly,
......when longing leads thy thought afar


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 4 2012, 8:23am

Post #73 of 120 (457 views)
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Nope. [In reply to] Can't Post

The rumours started a day (or two) before the Hobbit panel, as I was the one to make a thread on it.

It was the first day of SDCC.


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Aug 4 2012, 10:01am

Post #74 of 120 (464 views)
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You're right, a third film has been in discussion since the project started [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ confirmed it.

[interview]


guitarzankansasfan
Lorien


Aug 4 2012, 10:09am

Post #75 of 120 (647 views)
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No conspiracy needed, just caution for an idea that was late in coming [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think there was any plan for this from early on, I believe that Jackson is honest in saying they proposed the idea to the studios after watching an edit of film one and part of film two.

I think in the end, the reason the studios denied the rumors early on at the start of Comic Con was because with the lateness of the proposal and the short time window for setting up all the necessary contracts, there was still a possibility that it wouldn't happen. If they had truly had this planned very early on, they could have made a glorious announcement at Comic Con and gotten a lot more publicity for the film.

I believe that until it actually all fell into place, the official plan had to remain for the original two movies because that is what they could legally do until the necessary contracts for a third film could be worked out.

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