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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Tibboh eht: Noissucsid Eivom:
Analysing Billy Connolly's Dain Ironfoot
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Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 19 2012, 12:17am

Post #126 of 242 (8739 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

I am keeping my expectations appropriately low. Well below sea level, in any case.


lurtz2010
NahoR

Jun 19 2012, 2:09am

Post #127 of 242 (8719 views)
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You know the movies will blow your mind [In reply to] Can't Post

in a good way, exceeding your expectations by 1000


Demosthenes
Sr. Staff


Jun 19 2012, 2:31am

Post #128 of 242 (8701 views)
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I don't like the axe [In reply to] Can't Post

 
The axe stretches credulity to breaking point. Phineas Gage is not a corollary as the railway spike was not left embedded in the fellow's skull -- it drove through and out and subsequently healed. Wandering round with somethng sticking out of your body like that is a recipe for a festering wound, septicaemia and death.

Connolly's Dain, otoh could work. It's fanciful, but possible. It has some mythological precedence. And some factual precedence in celtic history too.

But like I said, Dain needs to be smart as well as being a mighty hacker of legs. I doubt we'll find out much about that until the films' release.

Not unless someone has a script handy to drop into our laps. :)

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Xanaseb
Aessere Lot


Jun 19 2012, 2:38am

Post #129 of 242 (8742 views)
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:D :D :D *applause* for this post painjoker [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Because I am looking forward to another PETER JACKSON fantasy movie!
I am not expecting a 100% faithful adaption :)

We have the book, the film should be a different view on this IMO^^

Peter made good movies out of LotR (especially the two first) even though you like the changes or not, the movies themselves are very tastefully done!
I expect the same from The Hobbit, and so far it seems like I'm getting what I'm expecting :)


Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!

________________________________________________

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Bard: The aqueduct!

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Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 19 2012, 4:09am

Post #130 of 242 (8683 views)
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Unfortunately [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't just want another couple Peter Jackson fantasy movies...

I want an excellent adaptation of the Hobbit, made by brilliant filmmakers...

I want great movies to complement the books, not to be dramatically poorer renditions of them...

But I have learned to expect something different than what I want...


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jun 19 2012, 5:06am

Post #131 of 242 (8689 views)
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Truer words [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Because I am looking forward to another PETER JACKSON fantasy movie! ...We have the book, the film should be a different view on this IMO^


Way to cut to the chase, painjoker. Smile

If one enjoys Jackson's movies overall, and/or enjoyed the LOTR movies overall (not 100% blind devotion to either, by any means) the Hobbit movies are something to look forward to and one will probably enjoy them. If one doesn't like Jackson and/or the LOTR movies overall, it seems highly likely that they will dislike the Hobbit movies for intrinsic reasons, or will have already talked themselves into not liking them, no matter what they see on the screen.

It's fine to wish Jackson had a different style, or that some changes we already know about weren't going to happen, but it pretty much "is what it is." Like you, I'm thankful that I can completely separate something I love with my heart (the books) from something I appreciate with my mind (the movies).

Cheers!


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





AinurOlorin
Nevle-flah


Jun 19 2012, 6:06am

Post #132 of 242 (8731 views)
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The more badass Dain comes across, The more awesome a Threshold of Moria scene [In reply to] Can't Post

would be. I really do kinda hope to get to see this super hardcore dwarf decimating goblins and Azog in the last great battle of war between the Dwarves and Orcs/Goblins, only to come to the threshold of The Gates of Moria. . . and behold through the darkness behind the gate a Demon of Might, Shadow and Flame, and be overcome with fear. I think that will bring home for Fellowship goers, past and future, how much more than just a monster The Balrog truly was, among other things (like the dwarves never really having a chance to retake Moria)

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 19 2012, 7:15am

Post #133 of 242 (8678 views)
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Assuming we get to see the whole Moria sequence that is :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



The Plan 9 Interview... in celebration of the 10th anniversary of the release of The Fellowship of the Ring.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 7:17am

Post #134 of 242 (8658 views)
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I wish! [In reply to] Can't Post

This would be truly cinematic Shocked


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 7:18am

Post #135 of 242 (8633 views)
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Agreed!! [In reply to] Can't Post

And if anything, it's just great for the nostalgia when waiting for the release of the trilogy Laugh


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 7:20am

Post #136 of 242 (8647 views)
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Humour and characterisation [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a bit of both really.

I'm not that bothered by it. The thing that concerns me is it's believability - how can someone have a quality of life with an axe in their head?!

Still, how he got it may make for an ammusing scene.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 7:23am

Post #137 of 242 (8643 views)
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Yes, these were my thoughts too. [In reply to] Can't Post

There has to be a mix, otherwise Gimli or Thorin and co. will not fit in.


flowww
Eerb

Jun 19 2012, 7:34am

Post #138 of 242 (8794 views)
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Yeah, after reading this article... [In reply to] Can't Post

It struck me that I'm just going to have to watch these next two films as kind of a D&D/Warhammer-esque take on Fantasy. Which, I mean, I liked as a young metalhead back in the day, so I guess I can deal with it. Like, I was initially horrified by all these relevations, because I'd really liked the.... well, I was going to say 'realism' of the LOTR films, but it wasn't really realism at all... but there was a seriousness with which the stories were portrayed... somewhere between 'real world' and 'Myth' rather than 'Fantasy'. The new movies are going to be way more Genre Fantasy, which gets a little more outragious in its designs, but oh well. Conan the Barbarian was a total Fantasy genre flick, and it was done perfectly. Maybe this'll be a good realization of the genre as well.

Yeah, just going to tell myself that I'm going to see the good Dungeon and Dragons movie that was never made.


(This post was edited by flowww on Jun 19 2012, 7:36am)


Demosthenes
Sr. Staff


Jun 19 2012, 8:53am

Post #139 of 242 (8649 views)
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Azanulbizar [In reply to] Can't Post

I propose three reasons why I think it's more than likely than not we'll see something of the dwarf-orc wars.

1) the casting of Azog. Why is there an Azog if there's not going to be some visual reference, even if fleeting, to the battle between the orcs and dwarves. By extension you can include castings for thrain and thror in this, though they're needed for any Erebor flashback as well. However, Azog only exists for Azanulbizar (canonincally at least)

2) Jackson likes the battle scenes. And those giant set pieces are what sell blockbuster films.

3) My reading of the press thus far is that Connolly is in both films. So, again, interpreting the canon, Dain appears at only two points: Azanulbizar and BOTFA.

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Demosthenes
Sr. Staff


Jun 19 2012, 9:00am

Post #140 of 242 (8653 views)
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Dain on Moria's threshold [In reply to] Can't Post

I left it kinda implicit in my piece as I felt I'd already rabbitted on long enough, but when I referred to Dain's wisdom, the scene between Thrain and Dain was key in my mind.

It would take not just a lot of guts, but a lot of smarts, to reject one's liegelord in such a situation.

Reading the passage in the appendices, and I think it's the only speaking piece he has ANYWHERE, it's clear that he's a thinker as well as a fighter.

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Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 19 2012, 9:07am

Post #141 of 242 (8619 views)
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Good analysis [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd love to see more of the history of the Dwarves too, so yeah, my fingers are crossed for the Battle of Azanulbizar.

My only doubt stems from the fact that Azog was for a long time the only Orc-villain cast in the films; Bolg was announced much, much later. This whole mix up served to remind me that PJ could just as well have been tampering with storylines and stuff.

Similar to how Gil-galad and Anarion were cast and were shot in the Prologue scenes, but were eventually never shown (or were shown very briefly) because they didn't serve the purpose of "advancing the plot".

I do hope your analysis proves to be right though Smile



The Plan 9 Interview... in celebration of the 10th anniversary of the release of The Fellowship of the Ring.


malickfan
Rodnog

Jun 19 2012, 9:23am

Post #142 of 242 (8627 views)
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Anything linking with the zanier fairytale tone of the book is fine with me. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm massively excited about Connoly's casting and Dain should look as badass as possible, frankly I don't really care about it tying in with designs from the trilogy-he will need to stand out in his few scenes anyway and this crazy design would be good way of doing that.
I want to see The Hobbit on screen- a different story with a different tone and designs-but set in the same universe as LOTR. If I wanted designs like LOTR I'd watch LOTR.

‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’



Kendalf
NahoR

Jun 19 2012, 9:57am

Post #143 of 242 (8644 views)
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I agree and disagree, malickfan! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not too upset by the postulated "radical" appearance of Dain.

1) He's a ferocious warrior - wading through a sea of orcs to behead your people's nemesis isn't exactly the most restrained and refined of actions.
2) He needs to stick out - only appearing twice in the entire duology (possibly), audience members need to remember him from the Azanulbizar flashback (early in Film One?) when he turns up at the Bo5A (at the end of Film Two) and they also need to be able to identify him easily on the battelfield once the carnage begins.

At the same time though, unlike you, I'm a little worried about all this "excess" not "tying in with designs from the tilogy" as yoiu put it. I'm quite keen on an overall aesthetic for all five films and it's looking, increasingly, that this may be in jeopardy...


ShireHorse
NahoR

Jun 19 2012, 10:39am

Post #144 of 242 (8667 views)
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All of England was Celtic when the Romans came, [In reply to] Can't Post

not just the north, and some of the most famous Celtic tribes who put up a good fight against the Romans were from the south. Yes, it's true that they probably painted themselves with blue woad and bleached their hair with lime which they pulled into stiff spikes all over their heads. Quite punky, LOL!

The tribes known as the Scots and the Picts lived over the border and, like the rest of the UK, had complicated origins. Supposedly, they came from Scythia (Iran) and the Iberian peninsula. There was a Celtic input and a touch of Goth.

When anyone mentions a "northern" accent in the UK, most people think of the Yorkshire accent (which Armitage is good at doing) and not a Sottish one. And so RA fits into the casting call. This accent is well-regarded in the UK and is seen to represent toughness, honesty and decency. From the little I've heard on the trailer, RA is using a Yorkshire accent, although not too strong as befits his royal blood.

I don't think of northern England as being Celt but as Viking. This is where most of them settled when they invaded and their main city was York (Jorvik). And this would fit in with the Norse names Tolkien gave his dwarves. However, since the Iron Hills are to the north of the Lonely Mountain, I have no problem imagining that Thorin would have a load of relatives from "over the border", as is the case in England today, and that this perfectly justifies using Billy in the role of Dain.


Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 19 2012, 11:33am

Post #145 of 242 (8570 views)
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This is the Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

It is a fairy tale fantasy. There are Trolls Goblins. Whats a little axe in the head. I consider it just a bit of body piercing jewelry.

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Kendalf
NahoR

Jun 19 2012, 11:47am

Post #146 of 242 (8610 views)
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Yep, the dwarves are Nordic, not Celtic... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...some of the most famous Celtic tribes who put up a good fight against the Romans were from the south... I don't think of northern England as being Celt but as Viking. This is where most of them settled when they invaded and their main city was York (Jorvik). And this would fit in with the Norse names Tolkien gave his dwarves...

Absolutely, Caratacus (of the Catuvelauni) and Boudica (of the Iceni) being the two most famous examples, right? Sure, it's fantasy, and, to a degree, Weta's artists should be allowed to indulge their creativity, but they should be looking to Medieval Scandanavia for inspiration for Dain's appearance (and the others'), not pre-Roman Britain.


Xanaseb
Aessere Lot


Jun 19 2012, 12:34pm

Post #147 of 242 (8573 views)
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Wooo for Jorvik :D I study history here :P [In reply to] Can't Post

and I agree with what you said... for the most part...

It's pretty tough to say if the people of the north in the British Isles were one type of culture or another, plus that whole period of our history is really quite a blur... we know relatively little about it all to be 100% confident. Even Archaelogical evidence can be quite a mish-mash, and doesn't in anyway give the full Pict -ure (LOL see what I did there? Tongue)

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!

________________________________________________

Laketown guy: What have the dwarves -ever- done for us?

Bard: The aqueduct!

Laketown guy: Piss off! We're not from Dale


Kendalf
NahoR

Jun 19 2012, 1:16pm

Post #148 of 242 (8552 views)
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Yes, it's complex but... [In reply to] Can't Post

...when you have history, archaeology, linguistics and toponymy all telling you that the dominant culture was Norse (whether or not the people were, which DNA studies suggest they weren't), then it becomes a little clearer. Or not! Crazy

Still, I'm not entirely convinced that the Danelaw was much of an inspiration for Tolkien (though I may be completely wrong!). It's Scandanavia, not northern England, that seems to hold the greatest sway over his dwarven culture and it's there that Weta should be focussing...


dave_lf
Rodnog

Jun 19 2012, 1:33pm

Post #149 of 242 (8563 views)
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Scandinavian dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

Scandinavian dwarves are evil, greedy, mischievous, and crafty (think Rumpelstiltskin) and can't abide the sunlight--it's the goblins and trolls who seem to have the most in common with them. Aside from their names and their love of gold, Tolkien's dwarves are really very different creatures. And Tolkien himself said that if anything, he thought of them as almost Jewish in their desire to reclaim their old homeland after being dispersed around the world by a catastrophe. Let's see Weta incorporate that into their designs. Wink


duats
SnevaH Yerg

Jun 19 2012, 1:45pm

Post #150 of 242 (8594 views)
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With Billy Connolly [In reply to] Can't Post

You really have to take everything he says with a grain of salt. He's a comedian, and he could just be making up hyperbolic statements about Dain for comedic effect.

But for the sake of argument, let's suppose he's telling the truth. Honestly, and I'm surprised these words are coming out of my mouth, but none of these details really bother me concept-wise. Obviously I'd have to see how they're executed before I can pass complete judgment, but I think a Mohawk could be made to work well. Same goes for the head tattoos and wild pig.

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