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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Tibboh eht: Noissucsid Eivom:
Analysing Billy Connolly's Dain Ironfoot

News from Bree
spymaster@theonering.net

Jun 18 2012, 7:58am

Post #1 of 242 (12130 views)
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Analysing Billy Connolly's Dain Ironfoot Can't Post

Billy Connolly, The Big Yin, loves a big laugh. So is that all that's behind the strange tidbits about Dáin Ironfoot that's emerging from the interviews that Connolly's been doing for Brave recently?

It could be. But what if it isn't? Let's summarise what's trickled out over the last few days, and see what we can conclude. Needless to say, this analysis involves spoilers.

Story:MSN.co.nz

Quotable quote:

Connolly is back in the country to do more work on The Hobbit as dwarf warrior Dáin Ironfoot. "I have a war to fight. Elves to kill. Orcs to maim," he says.

Elves to kill!

We know that in the book that Thorin summons his kin from the Iron Hills initially to deal with the army of unwanted humans and elves camped in front of the ruined front gate of Erebor after the demise of Smaug.

When Dáin's dwarves finally arrive, there are some tense moments where it looks as though a bloody and ruinous battle between dwarves and elves will ensue before Gandalf intervenes and warns of the approach of the armies of Bolg, son of Azog.

"But he reckoned without the dwarves. The knowledge that the Arkenstone was in the hands of the besiegers burned in their thoughts; also they guessed the hesitation of Bard and his friends, and resolved to strike while they debated.

Suddenly without a signal they sprang silently forward to attack. Bows twanged and arrows whistled; battle was about to be joined." The Hobbit, Chapter 17.

It seems fair to conclude from Connolly's comment that the Battle of the Five Armies will significantly mirror events described by Tolkien. Expect the tension of the historic enmity between elves and dwarves to drive them to the point of battle, before Gandalf intervenes dramatically.

Story: Yahoo Australia

Quotable quote:

"They're basically broadening me, making me wider," he explains, adding that the technology being used on the film is making for long, hard working days. "But let me say, this guy will terrify the life out of you. I have a Mohawk and tattoos on my head. You've got to see it."

It seems doubtful that Jackson would make Dáin as wide as, say, Bombur. But we know dwarves are naturally stocky. No cause for alarm.

A mohawk, though? Skull tattoos? Are these "proper" for a dwarven lord?

Well, fact is that the Hobbit doesn't even contain a description of Dáin -- his appearance is left wholly to the imagination of the reader. The best we get is a description of Dáin's folk that says in part: "Their beards were forked and plaited and thrust into their belts."

We do, however, know Dáin Ironfoot was one of the fiercest warriors of his age. At the youthful (for dwarves) age of 32, he slew the orc Azog before the west-gate of Moria during the Battle of Azanulbizar -- a mighty feat for one then regarded by his folk as a mere "stripling".

The appendices of Lord of the Rings describe that "up the steps after [Azog] leaped a Dwarf with a red axe. It was Dáin Ironfoot, Náin's son. Right before the doors he caught Azog, and there he slew him, and hewed off his head."

And during the War of the Ring, Dáin fought to defend Erebor and his friend King Brand (grandson of Bard the Bowman). He was 252 years of age -- old even for a dwarf yet still mighty in battle.

This all speaks of a great warrior. Perhaps even some sort a beserker. Such a warrior might, perhaps, affect a fierce appearance to intimidate his foes.



One thing is certain if this is true: WETA has wholly discarded the concepts it used for the LOTR trading card game that was released several years ago.

Story: News.com.au

Quotable quote:

"But you don't feel like a little guy because you are doing big things like killing people and stuff. And you are wearing all that armour and make-up and everything. It was great fun. I arrive riding a wild pig."

The dwarves of the Iron Hills don't ride into battle. Not on ponies. Not on pigs.

Their endurance is so prodigious that they run all the damn way from their mountain fortress to The Lonely Mountain. In full battle gear. Burdened by great packs on their backs. And they accomplish this feat in a matter of days, and then fight a great battle when they get there. And win.

They're so hardcore they make special ops guys look wimpy.

So, why do we have a Dáin on a wild pig? Did someone think that they needed to get maximum use out of Leroy, the pig from the Hobbiton set that AICN's Quint so graphically revealed. Maybe someone's been reading Game of Thrones and has George RR Martin's Tyrion Lannister confused with Tolkien's Dáin Ironfoot?

Maybe it just looks cool.



One possible explanation some of our message board members have pointed out is that Norse mythology speaks of Hildisvíni, the boar "battle swine" that the goddess Freya rides when not using her cat-drawn chariot.

Perhaps only Dáin Ironfoot will ride one of these battle swine. It could be a highly effective way of making him stand out from his fellows on the battlefield.

And consider: Tolkien initially derived the names of his dwarves from the Norse Sagas. In attempting to create fill visual gaps, and making the key players stand out for key scenes, isn't taking inspiration from a common mythological source better than making stuff up willy-nilly?

There's a caveat, though.

Dáin also proves a wise leader of his people. And he has a generous heart. I hope that his wisdom shines through in Connolly's portrayal as much as his warrior side.


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 1:59pm

Post #2 of 242 (9842 views)
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I was fine with the boar thing [In reply to] Can't Post

But now, mohawk? My enthusiasm for seeing Dain just plummeted...

Yes, I know there may have been some Pictish or British tribes that sported mohawks, but the modern association is punk rock.

Does Dain really need a boar-mount AND a mohawk to get across that he's a fierce warrior?

Sigh...


Carne
Aessere Lot

Jun 18 2012, 2:12pm

Post #3 of 242 (9791 views)
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Well, mohawks can look really badass... [In reply to] Can't Post

I like it.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 2:16pm

Post #4 of 242 (9772 views)
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Does seem excessive [In reply to] Can't Post

to have him riding a boar, a mohawk, and tattoos Crazy

But, you never know, works for Dwalin.


Carne
Aessere Lot

Jun 18 2012, 2:19pm

Post #5 of 242 (9779 views)
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Dwalin [In reply to] Can't Post

Exactly. Just a look at him and you can tell he'll easily take down a dozen goblins by himself.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 2:22pm

Post #6 of 242 (9719 views)
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I wouldn't like to meet him down a dark alley-way [In reply to] Can't Post

Question is, how did the dwarves tattoo themselves and why?

What tattoo did Gimli have?

Gimli 4 Galadriel?


Xanaseb
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 2:29pm

Post #7 of 242 (9759 views)
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Brilliant post Dems...... all I can say, is that this all screams WARHAMMER to me! I don't mind it... [In reply to] Can't Post

.... But I used to be into the game and the universe so much, that if the artwork concepts for dwarves are similar, then I'll just be taken straight out of thefilm experience FrownCrazy
well I hope I won't be!...

It might turn out to look good, but then again, I DON'T want a Din like Gotrek from the Warhammer world! (not that I dislike it, but it'd zap me out of the experience):



Warhammer dwarf Boar rider:



so yeah.... the art team'll make them look fine.. .. .. .. I trust them, just I hope I don't get reminded of Warhammer... some of the Dwarven weapons seen in vlog 7 also reminded me strongly of Warhammer hehe.

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!

________________________________________________

Laketown guy: What have the dwarves -ever- done for us?

Bard: The aqueduct!

Laketown guy: Piss off! We're not from Dale


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 2:31pm

Post #8 of 242 (9677 views)
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How funny! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm looking at the very same pictures right now.

Although, I have no experience of warmhammer, I just googled mohawk dwarf Wink

The first picture isn't so bad - I just can't see Connolly pulling it off. Plus, it's another "out-there" dwarf design.


dave_lf
Rodnog

Jun 18 2012, 2:35pm

Post #9 of 242 (9634 views)
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And I was too! [In reply to] Can't Post

As in, the exact same ones Shocked. Great minds think alike, but what's our excuse?


Carne
Aessere Lot

Jun 18 2012, 2:39pm

Post #10 of 242 (9730 views)
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And here's Dain fighting Bolg [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink




Xanaseb
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 2:39pm

Post #11 of 242 (9651 views)
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LOL, well I suppose it's a natural response by any forum poster to such descriptions from Billy hehe, [In reply to] Can't Post

I however already had those kinds of Warhammer images in my mind when reading it . . . . did you guys ever play it, or get into it?

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!

________________________________________________

Laketown guy: What have the dwarves -ever- done for us?

Bard: The aqueduct!

Laketown guy: Piss off! We're not from Dale


(This post was edited by Xanaseb on Jun 18 2012, 2:41pm)


Xanaseb
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 2:40pm

Post #12 of 242 (9683 views)
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precisely!, I hope PJ & Co. don't go -too- much down this kind of route lol. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!

________________________________________________

Laketown guy: What have the dwarves -ever- done for us?

Bard: The aqueduct!

Laketown guy: Piss off! We're not from Dale


dave_lf
Rodnog

Jun 18 2012, 2:46pm

Post #13 of 242 (9684 views)
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Not Warhammer precisely [In reply to] Can't Post

But I have a long, sordid history with the Warcraft universe, which is what these descriptions have been calling to my mind.


Voronw_the_Faithful
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 2:53pm

Post #14 of 242 (9652 views)
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At least ... [In reply to] Can't Post

... he doesn't have an axe in his head.

I don't like the mohawk and tatoos thing either, but I'll reserve judgment until I see it. It might not be as bad as it sounds.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 3:10pm

Post #15 of 242 (9669 views)
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Dwalin's just bald [In reply to] Can't Post

No mohawk there.

I'm starting to think that World of Warcraft or Warhammer really was the inspiration here...


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Jun 18 2012, 3:13pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 3:12pm

Post #16 of 242 (9635 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

I was hoping we'd get a more traditional Tolkien dwarf with Dain, to balance out some of the loonier designs...


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 3:14pm

Post #17 of 242 (9623 views)
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Sordid, eh? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do tell!


SkaldOfTheNorse
Eerb


Jun 18 2012, 3:14pm

Post #18 of 242 (9633 views)
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No Warhammer pollution to these movies (please) [In reply to] Can't Post

Please don't let the mythological style (ancient norse) be poluted by over the top pulp like Warhammer.
I always thought Middle Earth to be more low fantasy and steeped in Myth and Lore (class and style) almost historical.
If this is the path the art department chooses to go, before we know it we don't have subtle stylished weapons, but fluorescent red mega axes 10 feet long with what look like chainsaws.

Let Warhammer have it's own universe.

Sorry for the rant, but I truly hope the Iron Mountain dwarves design does not look like Warhammer dwarves. I hope the art department can think of something original more fitting to the middle earth universe portrayed in the movies than to cheeply borrow the repulsive 'art' of Warhammer.

What a contrast with the beautiful and subtle art of Howe and Lee.

Skald


dormouse
Nevle-flah


Jun 18 2012, 3:19pm

Post #19 of 242 (9681 views)
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Wouldn't that involve.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... some sort of breach of copyright?

The mohawk sounds more Pictish to me than anything else. Don't much care for the idea as an idea, but I'll wait and see what it looks like in context, and what sort of character they've made of him.


BeornBerserker
Neirol

Jun 18 2012, 3:20pm

Post #20 of 242 (9627 views)
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Comedian [In reply to] Can't Post

The guy is a natural comedian and makes a living with hyperbole. I feel his just playing himself, not Dain in the interviews.


dave_lf
Rodnog

Jun 18 2012, 3:21pm

Post #21 of 242 (9578 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

They do call them role-playing games, and there's never been a good explanation for those half-orcs...


dave_lf
Rodnog

Jun 18 2012, 3:23pm

Post #22 of 242 (9619 views)
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Warhammer/craft visual hyperbole [In reply to] Can't Post

The team frequently expressed distaste for the "D&D style" during the LotR days, and that probably hasn't changed. I think they'll come up with their own, unique brand of over-the-top Angelic.


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 3:23pm

Post #23 of 242 (9622 views)
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Prepare for some disappointment [In reply to] Can't Post

I think there will be a bit more flamboyance in the design this time around...


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 3:25pm

Post #24 of 242 (9589 views)
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I meant the tats / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 3:27pm

Post #25 of 242 (9567 views)
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No, never played it myself [In reply to] Can't Post

I did imagine Dain Ironfoot a lot differently though.

There goes my theory of PJ going down the iron foot route.


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 3:29pm

Post #26 of 242 (8815 views)
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Perhaps [In reply to] Can't Post

But one either has a mohawk, tatoos, and rides a boar, or not. Hyperbole cannot alter the facts.

The only way Dain won't display these features is if Connolly is just outright lying about it! And I doubt that's the case.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 3:32pm

Post #27 of 242 (8838 views)
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Pink mohawk [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder if Dain will be sporting a pink mohawk?

Especially since Connolly once had a pink tash.


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 3:37pm

Post #28 of 242 (8917 views)
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For the first time since Stephen Fry's description of his character... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a sinking feeling that these films will exceed LOTR in their level of unsubtlety and OTT nonsense.

Might be prudent to simply start preparing to dislike them.


dave_lf
Rodnog

Jun 18 2012, 3:45pm

Post #29 of 242 (8792 views)
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True [In reply to] Can't Post

But it's possible to have all those individual things while not sporting the full Warcraft/Warhammer look, other elements of which include:
-Ridiculously oversized weapons.
-Ridiculously oversized and spiky armor. When it is present at all, that is--there is also a strange focus on near-nudity and armor which can only be described as ornamental. In particular (but by no means exclusively) on female characters.
-Ridiculously oversided muscles, jaws, and other secondary sexual characteristics.
-Lots of glowing/aura effects. If anything is magic, lightning bolts are probably involved.
-Being very angry all the time.

Basically, imagine someone injecting steroids into himself and all his clothing, then exaggerate that some more.


BeornBerserker
Neirol

Jun 18 2012, 4:06pm

Post #30 of 242 (8827 views)
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Del Toro inluence [In reply to] Can't Post

We know Del Toro was involved in writing the script and basically was overseeing all the designs during pre-production. I would think most of those were set before he exited as director and won't change much. I expect the script will be significantly changed is the famously do daily rewrites as they did with LotR.

Dain's design being an eye catcher would be consistent with Del Toro's imagination and artistic style, so I think some of what Connelly is saying is true, he also is very tongue in cheek answering questions in general. I think lying is to harsh a term because almost everything he says to a a reporter has a comedic aspect to it.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 4:11pm

Post #31 of 242 (8801 views)
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We've had some sort of confirmation before [In reply to] Can't Post

that very little of GDTs incfluence is left.

As soon as Jackson took over, the films changed greatly.


Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 4:11pm

Post #32 of 242 (8832 views)
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This does seem to be where they're taking Dain... [In reply to] Can't Post

I was really hoping for and expecting a traditional, elder Dwarf Lord (especially in contrast to the comparatively younger-in-appearance Thorin), so not sure I'm exactly thrilled with this punk rock version.

The boar, however, I don't really mind - sounds like a strong image, potentially. Actually, a Boar sounds like a perfect mount for a Dwarf, given general similarity in appearance and personality. Tongue

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 4:14pm

Post #33 of 242 (8867 views)
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I wonder if Dain's mohowk will dilute the weirdness of Nori's starhead and Bifur's axe ornament? :p // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


BeornBerserker
Neirol

Jun 18 2012, 4:16pm

Post #34 of 242 (8804 views)
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GDT [In reply to] Can't Post

I am hoping some of his creativity would survive the change. I hope on the EE DVD's we some of his vision in concept art and designs. It would be interesting to see what might have been.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 4:21pm

Post #35 of 242 (8763 views)
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I hope so [In reply to] Can't Post

If very little directly survived into the films, then I would think that many of the current and end designs were still indirectly influence by GDT - it's all part of the both films progression - I hope we see something.


Carne
Aessere Lot

Jun 18 2012, 4:22pm

Post #36 of 242 (8792 views)
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Well, some of the dwarves have a "GDT" look to them [In reply to] Can't Post

For example Bifur. Has a steampunkish look going on, and we know GDT is into that.


(This post was edited by Carne on Jun 18 2012, 4:24pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 4:30pm

Post #37 of 242 (8795 views)
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That massive red hammer in vlog7 [In reply to] Can't Post

Suggests that we may at least get ridiculously oversized weapons.

PJ is certainly not immune to this sort of thing. Cue the Witch King's mace, and the massive oliphants.


BeornBerserker
Neirol

Jun 18 2012, 4:33pm

Post #38 of 242 (8755 views)
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PJ [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't want to diss on PJ at all, even though I was looking forward to GDT. I think all but the most fanatical purist are happy he was on LotR. Whatever changes were made that people don't like, I don't think there were any other directors of his talent that would have had the same respect for the source material and worked as hard to adapt it into a movie. And thanks to him it was set in New Zealand and I can't imagine it anywhere else, both for the scenery and landscapes and for the locations ability to create such bonding between directors, cast, designers, and crew to make them feel family.


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 4:34pm

Post #39 of 242 (8754 views)
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Bifur with the axe in his head? [In reply to] Can't Post

Doesn't seem at all steam punkish....


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 4:36pm

Post #40 of 242 (8774 views)
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Not oversized... [In reply to] Can't Post

Simply proportionate Unimpressed Wink


Carne
Aessere Lot

Jun 18 2012, 4:40pm

Post #41 of 242 (8732 views)
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Sorry [In reply to] Can't Post

Meant Bofur.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 4:42pm

Post #42 of 242 (8739 views)
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Bifur has the axe [In reply to] Can't Post

Crazy


Carne
Aessere Lot

Jun 18 2012, 4:53pm

Post #43 of 242 (8732 views)
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Dwalin [In reply to] Can't Post

The things on his hands also look like something GDT would come up with (I'm not complaining).


Voronw_the_Faithful
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 5:00pm

Post #44 of 242 (8729 views)
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Might be [In reply to] Can't Post

Why waste time actually bothering to see the films before rendering judgment on them?

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Jun 18 2012, 5:02pm

Post #45 of 242 (8754 views)
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Unprecedented box office disaster in wake of minor character's haircut furore! [In reply to] Can't Post

I called the headlines first. I want that noted for posterity.

LR


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 5:04pm

Post #46 of 242 (8681 views)
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Noted and time-stamped [In reply to] Can't Post

I was thinking more of:

Unprecedented rise in mohawks and head tattoos in wake of minor character's success

Wink


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 5:10pm

Post #47 of 242 (8696 views)
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I didn't render any judgment yet [In reply to] Can't Post

I simply expressed that I have a sinking feeling about them, which is born of experience (with the LOTR films) and what we have heard about TH thus far.

Also, it's good practice to keep your expectations low. Increases the chances of being pleasantly surprised! Wink


Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 18 2012, 5:18pm

Post #48 of 242 (8676 views)
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At this Point [In reply to] Can't Post

I am ready for anything Peter & Guillermo through at me. It is going to be a wild ride.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 18 2012, 5:21pm

Post #49 of 242 (8685 views)
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You want to make a bet?// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 18 2012, 5:22pm

Post #50 of 242 (8717 views)
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Look at the 13 Dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

Guillermo's fingerprints are all over them.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Voronw_the_Faithful
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 5:23pm

Post #51 of 242 (8809 views)
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More likey to create a self-fulfilling prophecy [In reply to] Can't Post

In my experience, people who go into something expecting not to like it almost never do.

Of course, you may be the exception to prove the rule.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 18 2012, 5:24pm

Post #52 of 242 (8789 views)
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I know [In reply to] Can't Post

it is hard to get a handle on it.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 18 2012, 5:26pm

Post #53 of 242 (8795 views)
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What you mean loony? [In reply to] Can't Post

They all seem normal to me.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 18 2012, 5:31pm

Post #54 of 242 (8873 views)
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This is the Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

It is a fairy tale and more than half is very comedic in nature. Your demands for seriousness and subtlety seem out of place.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 18 2012, 5:35pm

Post #55 of 242 (8804 views)
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The hammer might belong to Azog or Bolg.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 5:44pm

Post #56 of 242 (8839 views)
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You confuse the two words [In reply to] Can't Post

Seriousness and subtlety. I asked for the latter, not the former.

The Hobbit has a lighter, and sometime more 'fun' tone than LOTR, and I would like to see that reflected.

Bu that tone has a distinctive style that is very different from PJs.

Sorry, but axes in heads and mohawks have little to do with the lighter tone of the books. PJ may simply be using that excuse to exercise his puerile sense of humor.

We shall see.


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 5:46pm

Post #57 of 242 (8798 views)
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Not sur if there is such a rule [In reply to] Can't Post

But if so, yes, I would qualify as an exception.

I don't have an appetite for sulf-fulfilling prophecies, just as I don't like echo chambers.

Recently, for example, I considerably lowered my expectations for Prometheus, and was pleasantly surprised.


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Jun 18 2012, 5:47pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 5:55pm

Post #58 of 242 (8785 views)
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I like most of them [In reply to] Can't Post

But Bifur's axe in head gimmick is far from normal, and I find Bofur and Bombur to be very cartoonish. I don't mind Noris starfish hair, but it's still a very awkward design...

The rest are passable, with Thorin, Balin and Oin being my favorites.

I'm not 100% sure that these are GDT designs, either. He has a design aesthetic that can occasionally be flamboyant, but never as awkward as some of the dwarf designs.

A dwarf with a mohawk is not original, it's not interesting, and it's not very Tolkien. IMO, it's just boring fan fic type stuff.


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Jun 18 2012, 5:56pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 5:58pm

Post #59 of 242 (8792 views)
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And let's not compare [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien's humor to PJs. Entirely different universes.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 6:00pm

Post #60 of 242 (8807 views)
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They also have PJ's fingerprints over them [In reply to] Can't Post

Your guess is as good as mine as to how much each element of the film was (and still is) influenced by GDT.


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jun 18 2012, 6:03pm)


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 6:06pm

Post #61 of 242 (8796 views)
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I like starheard [In reply to] Can't Post

And not bothered by Bifur's axe head.

We can add Dain to the list of odd looking dwarves Wink


Voronw_the_Faithful
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 6:08pm

Post #62 of 242 (8763 views)
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I doubt we will ever know [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't expect that particular question to get answered by the various commentaries and documentaries.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 6:11pm

Post #63 of 242 (8768 views)
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No, probably not [In reply to] Can't Post

But I hope, and suspect they will, tell us a little something of the progression of the film, from when GDT was at the helm right to the release of the films.


easterlingchief1
Llednevir


Jun 18 2012, 6:43pm

Post #64 of 242 (8786 views)
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Gonna play Devil's Advocate here... [In reply to] Can't Post

But I actually kind of like the idea of Dain having a mohawk.

Now, I don't mean the big, spiky, ones you saw guys wearing back in the 90s. That's just impractical (where would dwarves get the gel to support that thing?) and silly. But a legitimate mohawk, ala the kind actually worn by the Native American tribe that it was named after, I am find with.

If Gimli's voice (and Connolly's regular speaking voice) are any indication, at least some portion of the remaining dwarf population has thick Scottish accents. Even the casting call for Thorin indicated that an actor with a north English accent was needed.

Scotland and Northern England, historically anyway, were home to Celtic warriors who, in addition to painting/scarring their faces, would often do their hair up in striking styles. This was a means to not only intimidate their enemies, but to let their comrades know who they were on the battlefield.

If this is the kid of logic going behind Dain's "do," I don't see a problem with it. It's honestly no less ridiculous than hundreds of goofy, impractical fantasy designs.


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Jun 18 2012, 6:43pm

Post #65 of 242 (8747 views)
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It's a funny word subtlety. [In reply to] Can't Post

It gets kicked about a lot. I'm not sure it is a word which leaps to mind as I think about Dain's character in TH.
I don't mean that in a negative way - just as a comment. With Dain, it always seemed to me that what you saw was what you got, and what you saw was what you were shown.

LR


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Jun 18 2012, 6:52pm

Post #66 of 242 (8742 views)
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Fortunately in my experience [In reply to] Can't Post

Gentle donnish humour plays well to all ages, the world over. That and amusing Latin epigrams.

LR


Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 7:05pm

Post #67 of 242 (8727 views)
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I'm not bothered by them either [In reply to] Can't Post

Just wondering if Dain will replace them as the focus of worries over "ridiculous-looking" Dwarves in TH.

I'll admit it, it did take me time to warm up to a few of the previously-revealed characters. Tongue

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 7:07pm

Post #68 of 242 (8722 views)
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One thing after another [In reply to] Can't Post

Axe and star head
Bunny-sled
Mohawk Dain

What's next? Wink


Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 7:08pm

Post #69 of 242 (8714 views)
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This does give Dain a totally different profile than the other Dwarves - allowing for identification during the chaotic BoFA. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 7:10pm

Post #70 of 242 (8706 views)
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Beorn's Pogo Stick! :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


easterlingchief1
Llednevir


Jun 18 2012, 7:11pm

Post #71 of 242 (8711 views)
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You've got to figure to... [In reply to] Can't Post

that he might have a helmet or crown or something on during the battle. Maybe that'll obscure any really clear view of his head tats and mohawk

IF he does have some headgear, let's just hope he doesn't get helmet head Wink


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 7:13pm

Post #72 of 242 (8702 views)
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Dwarf extras [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder what the Dwarf extras will look like.

Will they all be Gimli lookalikes, or all have distinctive features? There would need to be a mix otherwise it will just jar too much.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 7:13pm

Post #73 of 242 (8684 views)
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Smaug's handbag / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Carne
Aessere Lot

Jun 18 2012, 7:18pm

Post #74 of 242 (8712 views)
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They'll probably wear face covering helmets [In reply to] Can't Post

If not fully then at least partially.


Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 18 2012, 7:31pm

Post #75 of 242 (8711 views)
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I would not say that Peter Jackson's sense of humor is puerial. [In reply to] Can't Post

He seems to share his sense of humor with most of New Zealand. I might style it proletarian. I think it is just fine for these films.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 18 2012, 7:33pm

Post #76 of 242 (8768 views)
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I want an axe in my skull. [In reply to] Can't Post

It will be the rage after the Hobbit movies are released.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 7:37pm

Post #77 of 242 (8751 views)
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Elrond's iPad! :P ;) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 18 2012, 7:38pm

Post #78 of 242 (8733 views)
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Sauron's Eyepad [In reply to] Can't Post

Baradur...

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 7:42pm

Post #79 of 242 (8745 views)
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Right [In reply to] Can't Post

And jokes about the consistency of squirrell droppings and the gas-inducing properties of elvish bread are crowd pleasers across 9 continents...

If there's one thing people didn't go watch PJs LOTR for, it is his humor.

In any event, I didn't find most of TH humor to be excessively donnish. The good morning conversation is simply funny, ad some occurrences, like the dwarves tumbling into Bag End, border on the slapstick.

Not sure we need to layer PJs gross out humor (bird poop, axes embedded in heads, food fights, burping, farting) on top of that...


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Jun 18 2012, 7:43pm)


Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 7:42pm

Post #80 of 242 (8753 views)
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Lol! Smaug's Bachelor Pad...oh wait, that's actually in the story. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 7:44pm

Post #81 of 242 (8770 views)
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So I imagine the NZ proletariat [In reply to] Can't Post

Finds characters with metal objects stuck in their heads to be the height of comedy...

I think a better way of describing it is 'unfunny.'


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Jun 18 2012, 7:45pm)


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 7:45pm

Post #82 of 242 (8718 views)
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The Necromancer's pink throne :-D / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 7:46pm

Post #83 of 242 (8699 views)
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Bard's pink gown! [In reply to] Can't Post

There's a reason why he seems to be a single father...Mrs. Bard could only take so much! Tongue

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 7:47pm

Post #84 of 242 (8745 views)
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Now .... (off topic) [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a degree in Geography, but can only count 7 continents?

Tongue


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 7:48pm

Post #85 of 242 (8734 views)
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Helmets help create distinctive profiles... [In reply to] Can't Post

So, that could have been a solution...


Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 18 2012, 7:48pm

Post #86 of 242 (8727 views)
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You hang with the wrong crowd. [In reply to] Can't Post

Many of my motorcycle enthusiast friends would find the axe in the head not only funny but desirable

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 7:51pm

Post #87 of 242 (8707 views)
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That was part of the joke [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink

Was exaggerating how wide and far PJs humor travels.

Perhaps my humor is even worse!


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 7:53pm

Post #88 of 242 (8710 views)
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Ahhh ... your joke was ruined on me [In reply to] Can't Post

Was the geographer inside me coming out Wink hahaha!


Otaku-sempai
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 7:53pm

Post #89 of 242 (8719 views)
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If Billy isn't making most of this up... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree; this does seem like someone in the production department has been playing a bit too much Warhammer. But then, maybe Billy, himself, is the Warhammer enthusiast?

"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 7:55pm

Post #90 of 242 (8710 views)
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Well, that's comforting [In reply to] Can't Post

If PJ caters primarily to the motorcycle enthusiast demographic, the Hobbit films will certainly break box office records.

Wink


Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 7:58pm

Post #91 of 242 (8697 views)
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True - either could have achieved the desired effect [In reply to] Can't Post

here they've just continued the trend of Dwarves' with exaggerated physical attributes.

Perhaps they felt that "hair" would be more instantly recognizable than "helm".

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Jun 18 2012, 7:59pm)


Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 8:03pm

Post #92 of 242 (8760 views)
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Another consideration - making of the most of Dain's limited screentime [In reply to] Can't Post

In a duology of films stuffed to the brim with Dwarves, they'll have to introduce another Dwavish character (presumably) late in Film 2, and make him a unique and compelling presence - by giving him an exaggerated and highly-noticeable appearance and entrance, they'll instantly set him apart from the other Dwarves and tell you much about his character with limited dialogue and presence in the narrative.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Jun 18 2012, 8:03pm)


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Jun 18 2012, 8:08pm

Post #93 of 242 (8698 views)
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Again with the certainty. [In reply to] Can't Post

Didn't people go for that? How on earth do we know?

There are many senses of humour in the world. I like the good morning conversation but then I'm cognisant of the fact that I represent a body of one. I also like Latin epigrams but I am well aware that they may not have an entire Frankie Boyle audience rolling in the aisles.

I am a little puzzled by the statement that the good morning piece is simply funny, as to me that really begs the addendum, "to us". Similarly for what is unfunny. Surely we can't paper our taste over other people's? Or imply that our taste is better somehow?

LR


Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 18 2012, 8:09pm

Post #94 of 242 (8697 views)
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Just because you do not share someones sense of humor [In reply to] Can't Post

does not make it bad. I hate Bevis and Buthead but many find their style humorous. I try to appreciate a broad pallet of humor. It certainly makes life more fun.

And The Hobbit will break box office records.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Jun 18 2012, 8:09pm)


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 18 2012, 8:14pm

Post #95 of 242 (8694 views)
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Ahhh, good point [In reply to] Can't Post

I hadn't really considered this. Makes sense to have a minor but important character with a noticeable and recognisible appearance.

Unless PJ has Dain turn up early for tea and biscuits?


easterlingchief1
Llednevir


Jun 18 2012, 8:23pm

Post #96 of 242 (8663 views)
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Given how many helms have already been seen [In reply to] Can't Post

in the Trilogy, maybe they are trying to keep things fresh.

Also, aside from Gimli, and his helmet, we haven't seen too many examples of dwarf head gear outside of their hair. And none of the the main dwarves have helmets. Maybe its a rarity for them to wear anything on their heads? Just a thought.


Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 8:30pm

Post #97 of 242 (8689 views)
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I'm sure they could fit in one more at the Unexpected Party [In reply to] Can't Post

Poor Bilbo, though! Wink

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 8:35pm

Post #98 of 242 (8671 views)
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It does seem the costumes aren't as armor-centric... [In reply to] Can't Post

However, personally agree with the traditional wisdom that we may see Dwarves in war-masks (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) - Dain's army in particular.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Jun 18 2012, 8:36pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 8:48pm

Post #99 of 242 (8672 views)
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Would you relax? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am obviously stating my opinion here.

By your strange standards, your own statement suggesting that a broad global population does not appreciate donnish humor is also a statement of certainty.

Of course I know you don't have data behind that statement, but it's reasonable enough that I dont bother attacking you for expressing 'certainty.'

This is a message board, not a peer-reviewed journal.

And for the record, I have been quite excited about Billy Connoly as Dain, and am even thrilled by the rumored boar-tank.

I just think the mohawk is laying his fierceness on too thick. That is all.


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 8:53pm

Post #100 of 242 (8650 views)
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Never said it was bad [In reply to] Can't Post

I called it 'puerile' earlier, and I would say it again.

Of course it is my opinion that his sense of humor was puerile. It is not fact.

I just think PJ should try to adapt Tolkien's sense of humor for the screen. And as far as I am aware, Tolkien's humor does not come from his time spent with Kiwi motorcycle enthusiasts.

It's not that biker humor can't be humorous. It's just that I don't think it fits in Middle Earth.

Is it okay for me to hold this opinion, or have I violated some unwritten rule?


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 9:01pm

Post #101 of 242 (8778 views)
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I think that's reasonable [In reply to] Can't Post

Though riding in on a boar would likely do the trick.

It just sounds like a pile-on of outlandish characteristics. This leads to caricature and cartoon, IMO.

I want a lighthearted Hobbit, but not one that is cartoonish in the modern sense.

We shall see...


BeornBerserker
Neirol

Jun 18 2012, 9:08pm

Post #102 of 242 (8765 views)
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Humor evolves [In reply to] Can't Post

Humor is such an ever changing sentiment based on social,religious, economical, geo-political, and technological changes of the day to name a few. Some of the slapstick things would be as funny today as they were in the fifties to be sure. I hope the movies keep those parts.

My dad brought up Red Skelton and his old Freddie the free loader skit when talking with a 25 year old sister living at home with my parents. That skit was funny in its day but my sister didn't find it so funny and maybe in today's economic climate many wouldn't think it funny since many kids are living at home to a much later age.


(This post was edited by BeornBerserker on Jun 18 2012, 9:14pm)


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Jun 18 2012, 9:08pm

Post #103 of 242 (8743 views)
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Thanks for the advice [In reply to] Can't Post

I definitely wouldn't want to give an impression of not being relaxed.

That said I disagree. I haven't claimed any certainty, other than, by implication, that donnish humour may not appeal to everyone. I do have data to back that up as I know several people to whom it does not.

I would contrast that starkly with your statement that people did not go to see LOTR for the humour, which seems to be either speculation or projection.

LR


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 9:08pm

Post #104 of 242 (8741 views)
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Also [In reply to] Can't Post

It is quite reasonable to assume that the reason people flocked to LOTR had little to do with the humor...numerous reviews and conversations with people have failed to turn up the opinion "I like LOTR primarily because of the humor..."

That is what I said. I did not claim that no one liked it. Simply that it was probably not at the top of people's list of the film's virtues.

Spectacle, huge battles, heroism, ripping good yarn, frightening creatures, familiar archetypes, little guy overcoming big odds, hunky guys, moving depictions of loyalty and friendship, read the books.

Those are likely more common reasons for liking The LOTR films than 'PJs great sense of humor.'

Why don't you craft a survey, and find out?


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Jun 18 2012, 9:09pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 9:13pm

Post #105 of 242 (8730 views)
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Of course it's speculation [In reply to] Can't Post

But as I've said, it is very reasonable speculation.

Have you seen anyone, either critics or film goers, state that the reason they watched and rewatched LOTR is because of the humor?

Can we not even make reasonable guesses here without constantly stating IMO (which incidentally, I do quite often).

I don't like PJs humor, and I think it likely that the humor in his films is not at at the top of most people's 'reasons I love the LOTR films' list.

Is that better?


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Jun 18 2012, 9:13pm

Post #106 of 242 (8727 views)
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Ah i have misinterpreted your comment. [In reply to] Can't Post

I now see that your comment clearly meant that although humour may be amongst the many virtues of LOTR it may not be at the top of people's lists.

How silly of me to have read it otherwise.

LR


geordie
Aessere Lot

Jun 18 2012, 9:16pm

Post #107 of 242 (8710 views)
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Be careful what you wish for...// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 9:30pm

Post #108 of 242 (8693 views)
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My words [In reply to] Can't Post

"If there's one thing people didn't go watch LOTR for, it's PJs sense of humor."

Does that imply that not one person found his humor passable? Of course not.

It means, as it states, that it wasn't the reason people went to see it for.

Do you have any experience with anyone saying: I'm going to see LOTR because I heard it was funny?

If so, do share! Smile


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Jun 18 2012, 9:38pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 9:33pm

Post #109 of 242 (8674 views)
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A fine display of sarcasm there [In reply to] Can't Post

An elevated sense of humor, to be sure. Perhaps PJ could learn a thing or two from you? Wink


Lacrimae Rerum
SnevaH Yerg

Jun 18 2012, 9:54pm

Post #110 of 242 (8653 views)
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Possibly, possibly [In reply to] Can't Post

And don't it just go to show that one man's meat is another man's poison when it comes to what's funny.

LR


Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 18 2012, 10:14pm

Post #111 of 242 (8682 views)
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Everyone has their rights to their own opinions. [In reply to] Can't Post

"Is it okay for me to hold this opinion, or have I violated some unwritten rule?"

I just think it would be good to loosen up a bit. Some fine New Zealand wine might be just the thing.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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painjoiker
SnevaH Yerg


Jun 18 2012, 10:19pm

Post #112 of 242 (8695 views)
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Do you know why I think I will love these movies? [In reply to] Can't Post

Because I am looking forward to another PETER JACKSON fantasy movie!
I am not expecting a 100% faithful adaption :)

We have the book, the film should be a different view on this IMO^^

Peter made good movies out of LotR (especially the two first) even though you like the changes or not, the movies themselves are very tastefully done!
I expect the same from The Hobbit, and so far it seems like I'm getting what I'm expecting :)

Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 10:20pm

Post #113 of 242 (8645 views)
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Oh, I loosen up [In reply to] Can't Post

When I find something funny.

Axes in heads are generally not a great recipe for loosening people up, though, wouldn't you say? Unless you mean in the physical sense. Wink

However, I must admit that I find farting funny. Not sure what it is, but a well-timed fart always makes me laugh.

That being said, all the farts in PJ's LOTR were very ill-timed. Smile


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Jun 18 2012, 10:24pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 18 2012, 10:23pm

Post #114 of 242 (8675 views)
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I also don't want a 100% faithful adaptation (whatever that is) [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder, did someone in this thread ask for a 100% faithful adaptation?

Unfortunately, I don't think the LOTR films were very tastefully done...

At times, beautiful, but overall, quite bad.

IMO.


redgiraffe
NahoR

Jun 18 2012, 10:39pm

Post #115 of 242 (8648 views)
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expectations is a big factor in how one will enjoy a movie [In reply to] Can't Post

I had high expectations for Prometheus and while I thought it was awesome the first time I still felt disappointed by it. But I watched it a few more times and was able to appreciate it much more. The EXACT same thing happened with The Dark Knight... and even Return of the King (although, now, I enjoy ROTK much more than I thought I ever could).

I think the problem is that when we start building our own expectations from the hype of a film we form our own imagination of what is going to happen and we expect it to be completely perfect. That's a little unfair in my opinion.

It's such a hard thing to lower expectations and let go of the "control" feeling that you have when watching a movie that you want to be done a certain way. It was difficult to do that when seeing ROTK after having read the books and knowing everything that happens. It's probably even more difficult today with the information age.

But that's why I refuse to read The Hobbit again until after I see the movies. I saw FOTR just before I read the books and ended up loving it without having that feeling of wanting to "control" how every scene was done. And while I had great expectations for it I wasn't completely wrapped up in the anticipation so I basically allowed myself to enjoy it. I intend to do the same with the hobbit.

Keeping expectations from going overboard is probably the best advice you can give to a movie goer.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
NahoR

Jun 18 2012, 10:41pm

Post #116 of 242 (8664 views)
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I feel the same about those two [In reply to] Can't Post

The star head is a little bit of a shocker but it looks cool when we see Nori kind of scraggly with the hair in some of the blogs. Looks like he's been through enough stuff to get his hair unkempt.

I really don't mind the axe in Bifur's head. I'm not in love with it but I don't think it's the dumbest thing ever. Just my opinion though.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
NahoR

Jun 18 2012, 10:46pm

Post #117 of 242 (8626 views)
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A mixture would be good [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been saying it from the beginning that they need to mix in gimli-esque AND unique dwarves. If you just go with unique looking ones, you lose the continuity of the other dwarves seen in the trilogy. If you just go with Gimli-esque dwarves then a lot of Thorin's company might seem out of place and not dwarven at all.

I think mixture would be best. I'm really hoping that's what they do.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
NahoR

Jun 18 2012, 10:49pm

Post #118 of 242 (8613 views)
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ahhh the good morning quote!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember I loved that and couldn't stop laughing the first time I read it. Does anyone remember the exact quote?

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
NahoR

Jun 18 2012, 10:51pm

Post #119 of 242 (8650 views)
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One question about the axe in the head... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm just wondering, and I hope this doesn't come off as rude; and this question isn't directed at any one person.

But why are a lot of people assuming the axe in the head is an attempt at humor. It might just be something used to distinguish bifur and maybe hint that he's been in battles before or just had a working accident. While I understand that it isn't necessary I just don't feel as if it was an attempt at humor.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
NahoR

Jun 18 2012, 10:53pm

Post #120 of 242 (8613 views)
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Haha I liked the joke [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't catch the 9 continents at first until Daniel mentioned it.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 11:06pm

Post #121 of 242 (8607 views)
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here here I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

100% with the last few posts you have made SA


duats
SnevaH Yerg

Jun 18 2012, 11:17pm

Post #122 of 242 (8619 views)
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Uh... [In reply to] Can't Post

"They're basically broadening me, making me wider," he explains, adding that the technology being used on the film is making for long, hard working days. "But let me say, this guy will terrify the life out of you. I have a Mohawk and tattoos on my head. You've got to see it."

Oh boy.


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Jun 18 2012, 11:18pm

Post #123 of 242 (8615 views)
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some what agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree the dwarfs shouldn't look all the same but they should have dialed some of the OTT stuff back like the axe in the head, or the star head look of Nori, or Bombur just looking like Friar Tuck in a fat suit. there were plenty of ways to make the dwarfs different without going OTT and still maintaining the look from the dwarfs in FOTR, such as Gloin and Dain who were at the council of Elrond...(the 2 dwarfs with Gimli).. different costumes,weapons, and normal dwarf (also seen in FOTR) hairstyles or multiple other ways to make them look like individuals instead of 13 Gimli's on screen


BeornBerserker
Neirol

Jun 18 2012, 11:25pm

Post #124 of 242 (8594 views)
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i think [In reply to] Can't Post

I am going to wait until we see them fully girded for battle. I think when they are fully armed and armored and make their dramatic entrance into the BoFA we can see how OTT their design is. At that point if they maintain their uniqueness but take on a more uniform look of battle ready grim Dwarves maybe entering their final battle, we will have a more complete view.


Demosthenes
Sr. Staff


Jun 18 2012, 11:50pm

Post #125 of 242 (8627 views)
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warhammer needs a banhammer? [In reply to] Can't Post

That's mad!

I hope it's not that caricatured.

I expect it won't be ... a bunch of madmax-style dwarves with pink mohawks riding 500 wild boars into battle seems just to unlikely.

Also, consider that visually, Jackson and his crew are usually pretty spot on -- it's stuff like plot and dialogue that tends to get cheesy.

TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and Hall of Fire moderator


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 19 2012, 12:17am

Post #126 of 242 (8740 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

I am keeping my expectations appropriately low. Well below sea level, in any case.


lurtz2010
NahoR

Jun 19 2012, 2:09am

Post #127 of 242 (8720 views)
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You know the movies will blow your mind [In reply to] Can't Post

in a good way, exceeding your expectations by 1000


Demosthenes
Sr. Staff


Jun 19 2012, 2:31am

Post #128 of 242 (8702 views)
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I don't like the axe [In reply to] Can't Post

 
The axe stretches credulity to breaking point. Phineas Gage is not a corollary as the railway spike was not left embedded in the fellow's skull -- it drove through and out and subsequently healed. Wandering round with somethng sticking out of your body like that is a recipe for a festering wound, septicaemia and death.

Connolly's Dain, otoh could work. It's fanciful, but possible. It has some mythological precedence. And some factual precedence in celtic history too.

But like I said, Dain needs to be smart as well as being a mighty hacker of legs. I doubt we'll find out much about that until the films' release.

Not unless someone has a script handy to drop into our laps. :)

TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and Hall of Fire moderator


Xanaseb
Aessere Lot


Jun 19 2012, 2:38am

Post #129 of 242 (8743 views)
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:D :D :D *applause* for this post painjoker [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Because I am looking forward to another PETER JACKSON fantasy movie!
I am not expecting a 100% faithful adaption :)

We have the book, the film should be a different view on this IMO^^

Peter made good movies out of LotR (especially the two first) even though you like the changes or not, the movies themselves are very tastefully done!
I expect the same from The Hobbit, and so far it seems like I'm getting what I'm expecting :)


Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!

________________________________________________

Laketown guy: What have the dwarves -ever- done for us?

Bard: The aqueduct!

Laketown guy: Piss off! We're not from Dale


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 19 2012, 4:09am

Post #130 of 242 (8684 views)
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Unfortunately [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't just want another couple Peter Jackson fantasy movies...

I want an excellent adaptation of the Hobbit, made by brilliant filmmakers...

I want great movies to complement the books, not to be dramatically poorer renditions of them...

But I have learned to expect something different than what I want...


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jun 19 2012, 5:06am

Post #131 of 242 (8690 views)
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Truer words [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Because I am looking forward to another PETER JACKSON fantasy movie! ...We have the book, the film should be a different view on this IMO^


Way to cut to the chase, painjoker. Smile

If one enjoys Jackson's movies overall, and/or enjoyed the LOTR movies overall (not 100% blind devotion to either, by any means) the Hobbit movies are something to look forward to and one will probably enjoy them. If one doesn't like Jackson and/or the LOTR movies overall, it seems highly likely that they will dislike the Hobbit movies for intrinsic reasons, or will have already talked themselves into not liking them, no matter what they see on the screen.

It's fine to wish Jackson had a different style, or that some changes we already know about weren't going to happen, but it pretty much "is what it is." Like you, I'm thankful that I can completely separate something I love with my heart (the books) from something I appreciate with my mind (the movies).

Cheers!


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





AinurOlorin
Nevle-flah


Jun 19 2012, 6:06am

Post #132 of 242 (8732 views)
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The more badass Dain comes across, The more awesome a Threshold of Moria scene [In reply to] Can't Post

would be. I really do kinda hope to get to see this super hardcore dwarf decimating goblins and Azog in the last great battle of war between the Dwarves and Orcs/Goblins, only to come to the threshold of The Gates of Moria. . . and behold through the darkness behind the gate a Demon of Might, Shadow and Flame, and be overcome with fear. I think that will bring home for Fellowship goers, past and future, how much more than just a monster The Balrog truly was, among other things (like the dwarves never really having a chance to retake Moria)

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 19 2012, 7:15am

Post #133 of 242 (8679 views)
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Assuming we get to see the whole Moria sequence that is :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



The Plan 9 Interview... in celebration of the 10th anniversary of the release of The Fellowship of the Ring.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 7:17am

Post #134 of 242 (8659 views)
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I wish! [In reply to] Can't Post

This would be truly cinematic Shocked


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 7:18am

Post #135 of 242 (8634 views)
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Agreed!! [In reply to] Can't Post

And if anything, it's just great for the nostalgia when waiting for the release of the trilogy Laugh


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 7:20am

Post #136 of 242 (8648 views)
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Humour and characterisation [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a bit of both really.

I'm not that bothered by it. The thing that concerns me is it's believability - how can someone have a quality of life with an axe in their head?!

Still, how he got it may make for an ammusing scene.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 7:23am

Post #137 of 242 (8644 views)
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Yes, these were my thoughts too. [In reply to] Can't Post

There has to be a mix, otherwise Gimli or Thorin and co. will not fit in.


flowww
Eerb

Jun 19 2012, 7:34am

Post #138 of 242 (8795 views)
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Yeah, after reading this article... [In reply to] Can't Post

It struck me that I'm just going to have to watch these next two films as kind of a D&D/Warhammer-esque take on Fantasy. Which, I mean, I liked as a young metalhead back in the day, so I guess I can deal with it. Like, I was initially horrified by all these relevations, because I'd really liked the.... well, I was going to say 'realism' of the LOTR films, but it wasn't really realism at all... but there was a seriousness with which the stories were portrayed... somewhere between 'real world' and 'Myth' rather than 'Fantasy'. The new movies are going to be way more Genre Fantasy, which gets a little more outragious in its designs, but oh well. Conan the Barbarian was a total Fantasy genre flick, and it was done perfectly. Maybe this'll be a good realization of the genre as well.

Yeah, just going to tell myself that I'm going to see the good Dungeon and Dragons movie that was never made.


(This post was edited by flowww on Jun 19 2012, 7:36am)


Demosthenes
Sr. Staff


Jun 19 2012, 8:53am

Post #139 of 242 (8650 views)
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Azanulbizar [In reply to] Can't Post

I propose three reasons why I think it's more than likely than not we'll see something of the dwarf-orc wars.

1) the casting of Azog. Why is there an Azog if there's not going to be some visual reference, even if fleeting, to the battle between the orcs and dwarves. By extension you can include castings for thrain and thror in this, though they're needed for any Erebor flashback as well. However, Azog only exists for Azanulbizar (canonincally at least)

2) Jackson likes the battle scenes. And those giant set pieces are what sell blockbuster films.

3) My reading of the press thus far is that Connolly is in both films. So, again, interpreting the canon, Dain appears at only two points: Azanulbizar and BOTFA.

TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and Hall of Fire moderator


Demosthenes
Sr. Staff


Jun 19 2012, 9:00am

Post #140 of 242 (8654 views)
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Dain on Moria's threshold [In reply to] Can't Post

I left it kinda implicit in my piece as I felt I'd already rabbitted on long enough, but when I referred to Dain's wisdom, the scene between Thrain and Dain was key in my mind.

It would take not just a lot of guts, but a lot of smarts, to reject one's liegelord in such a situation.

Reading the passage in the appendices, and I think it's the only speaking piece he has ANYWHERE, it's clear that he's a thinker as well as a fighter.

TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and Hall of Fire moderator


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 19 2012, 9:07am

Post #141 of 242 (8620 views)
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Good analysis [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd love to see more of the history of the Dwarves too, so yeah, my fingers are crossed for the Battle of Azanulbizar.

My only doubt stems from the fact that Azog was for a long time the only Orc-villain cast in the films; Bolg was announced much, much later. This whole mix up served to remind me that PJ could just as well have been tampering with storylines and stuff.

Similar to how Gil-galad and Anarion were cast and were shot in the Prologue scenes, but were eventually never shown (or were shown very briefly) because they didn't serve the purpose of "advancing the plot".

I do hope your analysis proves to be right though Smile



The Plan 9 Interview... in celebration of the 10th anniversary of the release of The Fellowship of the Ring.


malickfan
Rodnog

Jun 19 2012, 9:23am

Post #142 of 242 (8628 views)
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Anything linking with the zanier fairytale tone of the book is fine with me. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm massively excited about Connoly's casting and Dain should look as badass as possible, frankly I don't really care about it tying in with designs from the trilogy-he will need to stand out in his few scenes anyway and this crazy design would be good way of doing that.
I want to see The Hobbit on screen- a different story with a different tone and designs-but set in the same universe as LOTR. If I wanted designs like LOTR I'd watch LOTR.

As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said All is now ready.



Kendalf
NahoR

Jun 19 2012, 9:57am

Post #143 of 242 (8645 views)
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I agree and disagree, malickfan! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not too upset by the postulated "radical" appearance of Dain.

1) He's a ferocious warrior - wading through a sea of orcs to behead your people's nemesis isn't exactly the most restrained and refined of actions.
2) He needs to stick out - only appearing twice in the entire duology (possibly), audience members need to remember him from the Azanulbizar flashback (early in Film One?) when he turns up at the Bo5A (at the end of Film Two) and they also need to be able to identify him easily on the battelfield once the carnage begins.

At the same time though, unlike you, I'm a little worried about all this "excess" not "tying in with designs from the tilogy" as yoiu put it. I'm quite keen on an overall aesthetic for all five films and it's looking, increasingly, that this may be in jeopardy...


ShireHorse
NahoR

Jun 19 2012, 10:39am

Post #144 of 242 (8668 views)
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All of England was Celtic when the Romans came, [In reply to] Can't Post

not just the north, and some of the most famous Celtic tribes who put up a good fight against the Romans were from the south. Yes, it's true that they probably painted themselves with blue woad and bleached their hair with lime which they pulled into stiff spikes all over their heads. Quite punky, LOL!

The tribes known as the Scots and the Picts lived over the border and, like the rest of the UK, had complicated origins. Supposedly, they came from Scythia (Iran) and the Iberian peninsula. There was a Celtic input and a touch of Goth.

When anyone mentions a "northern" accent in the UK, most people think of the Yorkshire accent (which Armitage is good at doing) and not a Sottish one. And so RA fits into the casting call. This accent is well-regarded in the UK and is seen to represent toughness, honesty and decency. From the little I've heard on the trailer, RA is using a Yorkshire accent, although not too strong as befits his royal blood.

I don't think of northern England as being Celt but as Viking. This is where most of them settled when they invaded and their main city was York (Jorvik). And this would fit in with the Norse names Tolkien gave his dwarves. However, since the Iron Hills are to the north of the Lonely Mountain, I have no problem imagining that Thorin would have a load of relatives from "over the border", as is the case in England today, and that this perfectly justifies using Billy in the role of Dain.


Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 19 2012, 11:33am

Post #145 of 242 (8571 views)
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This is the Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

It is a fairy tale fantasy. There are Trolls Goblins. Whats a little axe in the head. I consider it just a bit of body piercing jewelry.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kendalf
NahoR

Jun 19 2012, 11:47am

Post #146 of 242 (8611 views)
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Yep, the dwarves are Nordic, not Celtic... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...some of the most famous Celtic tribes who put up a good fight against the Romans were from the south... I don't think of northern England as being Celt but as Viking. This is where most of them settled when they invaded and their main city was York (Jorvik). And this would fit in with the Norse names Tolkien gave his dwarves...

Absolutely, Caratacus (of the Catuvelauni) and Boudica (of the Iceni) being the two most famous examples, right? Sure, it's fantasy, and, to a degree, Weta's artists should be allowed to indulge their creativity, but they should be looking to Medieval Scandanavia for inspiration for Dain's appearance (and the others'), not pre-Roman Britain.


Xanaseb
Aessere Lot


Jun 19 2012, 12:34pm

Post #147 of 242 (8574 views)
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Wooo for Jorvik :D I study history here :P [In reply to] Can't Post

and I agree with what you said... for the most part...

It's pretty tough to say if the people of the north in the British Isles were one type of culture or another, plus that whole period of our history is really quite a blur... we know relatively little about it all to be 100% confident. Even Archaelogical evidence can be quite a mish-mash, and doesn't in anyway give the full Pict -ure (LOL see what I did there? Tongue)

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!

________________________________________________

Laketown guy: What have the dwarves -ever- done for us?

Bard: The aqueduct!

Laketown guy: Piss off! We're not from Dale


Kendalf
NahoR

Jun 19 2012, 1:16pm

Post #148 of 242 (8553 views)
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Yes, it's complex but... [In reply to] Can't Post

...when you have history, archaeology, linguistics and toponymy all telling you that the dominant culture was Norse (whether or not the people were, which DNA studies suggest they weren't), then it becomes a little clearer. Or not! Crazy

Still, I'm not entirely convinced that the Danelaw was much of an inspiration for Tolkien (though I may be completely wrong!). It's Scandanavia, not northern England, that seems to hold the greatest sway over his dwarven culture and it's there that Weta should be focussing...


dave_lf
Rodnog

Jun 19 2012, 1:33pm

Post #149 of 242 (8564 views)
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Scandinavian dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

Scandinavian dwarves are evil, greedy, mischievous, and crafty (think Rumpelstiltskin) and can't abide the sunlight--it's the goblins and trolls who seem to have the most in common with them. Aside from their names and their love of gold, Tolkien's dwarves are really very different creatures. And Tolkien himself said that if anything, he thought of them as almost Jewish in their desire to reclaim their old homeland after being dispersed around the world by a catastrophe. Let's see Weta incorporate that into their designs. Wink


duats
SnevaH Yerg

Jun 19 2012, 1:45pm

Post #150 of 242 (8595 views)
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With Billy Connolly [In reply to] Can't Post

You really have to take everything he says with a grain of salt. He's a comedian, and he could just be making up hyperbolic statements about Dain for comedic effect.

But for the sake of argument, let's suppose he's telling the truth. Honestly, and I'm surprised these words are coming out of my mouth, but none of these details really bother me concept-wise. Obviously I'd have to see how they're executed before I can pass complete judgment, but I think a Mohawk could be made to work well. Same goes for the head tattoos and wild pig.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 1:52pm

Post #151 of 242 (8863 views)
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So do dwarves have different physiology to us then? [In reply to] Can't Post

 Excluding the obvious ...


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jun 19 2012, 1:53pm)


Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 19 2012, 2:17pm

Post #152 of 242 (8894 views)
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Separate Sub-creation: [In reply to] Can't Post

Dwarves be made from stone. This might explain the axe piercing. Dwarves are not Eru's creation. This explains a lot about them.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 2:20pm

Post #153 of 242 (8845 views)
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Regardless of this [In reply to] Can't Post

They still have a humoid form. Some organ, whether it is a heart, brain or bladder, must be contained in the skull. An axe imbedded inside certainly wouldn't be comfortable Wink


Kangi Ska
Nevle-flah


Jun 19 2012, 2:26pm

Post #154 of 242 (8848 views)
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Just because two things app[ear similar does not make them the same. [In reply to] Can't Post

I work it out this way. If a Dwarf has a fragment of an axe embedded in his head and he still is functioning then it must be OK. (At least for Dwarves) Let us not forget this is fantasy. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 2:29pm

Post #155 of 242 (8830 views)
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Yeah, I know that ;-D [In reply to] Can't Post

If PJ has an explanation I imagine it's something like dwarves having thicker skulls/harder heads (something along those lines) - no doubt Bilbo will be interested.

As you say, if Bifur is fine, then it must be ok.

It's natural for anyone to question the functionallity of an axe-in-the-head dwarf.


imin
Ronilav


Jun 19 2012, 2:46pm

Post #156 of 242 (8838 views)
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Its not very Tolkien in my opinion. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think one reason bifur has an axe in his head is due to GDT and the pun on bifurcate and to seperate him from the others. personally i dont think it was needed and like the rest of his design. An axe in the head isnt needed for identification by the audience.

To me the dwarves run the risk of becoming parodies in a world where everything seems realistic, serious. I know there are orcs and trolls but for some reason they seem fine to me. I also dont necessarily mind the tattoos or the boar riding or the bunny sled or the massive weapons or the Mohawk its more how they are done. In the past PJ i think has been excellent in terms of the visuals of LOTR, the only area i think looked not so great was minas tirith but even then its only because the rest of the places in the movies looked incredible. So i do have faith that these things will look good and work well on screen. Dwalin has head tattoos and if done like that i think dains will look good, even though i did not imagine him with a mohawk or tattoos.

I just hope they dont take things too far and make the dwarves become a stereotype of what people think of dwarves as in fantasy today - warhammer etc.

i think there is more to tolkien's dwarves than just being 'badass' and i really hope they show those other qualities otherwise the world of middle earth becomes a more one dimensional boring place.

I understand TH is a book aimed squarely at children but it then became part of the middle earth universe as he was writing and so has to keep some aspects the same as LOTR. It is more jolly and whimsical than LOTR (at least the first 1/2) but in my mind that doesnt mean you can get away with anything in the movie and use the excuse of its a fantasy for kids.


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 19 2012, 3:07pm

Post #157 of 242 (8836 views)
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This is an important point [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien did not adopt dwarves wholesale from Norse myth. He used a number of their names, sure (though interestingly, Balin is a French name), but not so much of their characteristics (apart from the idea that they were unlovely and liked to craft things out of metal...). In addition to Norse influence, he also may have been inspired by the way in which the very tall men of the German world, Gaul and Britain saw Romans, who were usually much shorter than them.

If anything, Tolkien's dwarves are an 'ingestion' of the concept of dwarves into a theoretical Anglo-Saxon mythology, and tempered by Tolkien's own Christian philosophy. They are what Tolkien speculated the Anglo-Saxons might have conceptualized, with influence from their origins in Germany and Jutland, invading Norse later in history, and perhaps even influences from Celtic Britons and Jewish merchants, but we'll never know because of 1066, whose aftermath seems to have erased a lot of the local mythology. But in the end, they are a creation of Tolkien, a sub creation, and Tolkien knew many cultures and many languages, and liberally drew from them.

So, it cannot be said that the dwarves must look Nordic. It's not that simple.

Personally, I would love it if Dain looks to have a historical analog, and will wait to see what the mohawk looks like before judging. I also like the boar-mount, which immediately takes my mind to Norse myth. Tattoos on the head are also fine, as they look quite good on Dwalin. I'm just worried about PJ overdoing it, that's all.

But Bifur's axe in the head really breaks the illusion of reality needed for such films to 'rise above the genre.' IMO, it is a horrible idea.


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Jun 19 2012, 3:09pm)


Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Jun 19 2012, 3:45pm

Post #158 of 242 (8801 views)
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reply to danielb [In reply to] Can't Post

If you take a close look at the 4th vblog, the scene where the camera is moving fast against the gathering dwarves in rivendell....you ll notice that Bifur is just standing there while the others are freaked out and assembling a defence dwarven unit . This suggests he might be a little crazy....


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 4:00pm

Post #159 of 242 (8793 views)
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Yes, others have mentioned that before [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not just Bifur that gets pulled into the bundle though.

Plus we here William Kircher speaks Khuzdul in one of the early vlogs. He can't be that "crazy".


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 19 2012, 4:42pm

Post #160 of 242 (8886 views)
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In my experience [In reply to] Can't Post

Most crazy people are able to formulate sentences, so that doesnt say too much. Plus, Kirchner states "Mighty dwarf!" three times, while pointing at his head, which seems like something a crazy dwarf might say and do Smile

I have no problem with Bifur being crazy. Might bring some interesting humor to the proceedings.

I do have a problem with the alleged reason for his craziness - a piece of exposed axe stuck in his brain.

It just screams schlocky, Halloweeny gimmick. If this was a parody of the Hobbit, I would happily accept it. But as far as I am aware, PJ's not aiming for parody...


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 19 2012, 4:47pm

Post #161 of 242 (8779 views)
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The axe in the head thing [In reply to] Can't Post

Reminds me of the scene in the TTT EE, where Gimli's axe is embedded in the Uruk's head, and he mentions nervous systems (one of the stupidest additions to the EE, next to the extra Paths of the Dead scenes, IMO).

Bifur's ornament strikes me as something out of PJ's sensibilities, not GDT's.

However, I imagine we may never know...


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 4:58pm

Post #162 of 242 (8751 views)
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hahaha! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Most crazy people are able to formulate sentences, so that doesnt say too much. Plus, Kirchner states "Mighty dwarf!" three times, while pointing at his head, which seems like something a crazy dwarf might say and do Smile

You're right! Maybe we expect a disabled Bifur? Is it necessary though?


Macfeast
NahoR

Jun 19 2012, 5:00pm

Post #163 of 242 (8778 views)
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It's not just that he gets pulled in. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's that almost absent look on his face, and his lack of response to what's going on. The rest of the company are forming up as a defensive unit, drawing their weapons and the like, but Bifur...it looks like he doesn't even acknowledge that something's going on (apart from being surprised about Bombur's repositioning him).

As I recall, Bifur's only spoken line in the book comes when Smaug has left his lair, and is about to go berserk on the mountan, when Bifur goes "My cousins! Bombur and Bofur we have forgotten them, they are down in the valley!" It could be that they are trying to add even more importance, and tension, to that particular scene, by having it being one of the few times (if not only time) Bifur speaks coherently.


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Jun 19 2012, 5:06pm)


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 5:02pm

Post #164 of 242 (8764 views)
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Yes, I'm just coming up with excuses to comfort me ;-) / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 5:03pm

Post #165 of 242 (8793 views)
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How did Gimli know of nervous systems? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder if Gloin was a practicing physician? Wink


Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Jun 19 2012, 5:04pm

Post #166 of 242 (8743 views)
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reply [In reply to] Can't Post

Exactly...hes definitly bongas...probably thought the coming avalanche of horse ridding elves were sweet bearded dwarf ladies...Wink


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 19 2012, 5:06pm

Post #167 of 242 (8773 views)
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Dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

Were not just natural sprinters, but natural surgeons as well.

In fact, film Gimli seems to be quite the modern scientist, discussing such complex matters as the consistency of squirrel droppings and the nervous systems of humanoid creatures.

A Gimli in the Mist, perhaps?


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Jun 19 2012, 5:08pm)


Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Jun 19 2012, 5:10pm

Post #168 of 242 (8723 views)
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reply [In reply to] Can't Post

I loved that squirrel line...

GIMILI M.D.


Oin K
Llednevir


Jun 19 2012, 5:17pm

Post #169 of 242 (8737 views)
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I really hope he at least gets that one line [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of the dwarves get so few lines of dialogue in the books. It would be wonderful if on film they all got to say their own lines in addition to any invented by the screenwriters. I thought of Bifur's line from the book, too, a while ago when there was speculation based on Bifur's "sign language" from the trailer that he might be mute. Half-mute would be much better, and seems more likely given that the actor knows a little Khuzdul.

"The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their snouts were long. Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a snoutless Dwarf - unless he were rhinoplasted in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have snouts from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike..." (History of Middle Earth, volume 11, The War of the Truffles, p. 205)

(This post was edited by Oin K on Jun 19 2012, 5:17pm)


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 5:19pm

Post #170 of 242 (8739 views)
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I wonder if squirrel droppings are a dwarf delicacy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Gimli wasn't a modern scientist, but a chef!

Nervous system soup with squirrel dropping croutons.


Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Jun 19 2012, 5:22pm

Post #171 of 242 (8740 views)
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reply to danielb [In reply to] Can't Post

Bring your pretty face to my axe! Ill make orc porridge of you!


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 5:22pm

Post #172 of 242 (8745 views)
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Would certainly add tension if Bifur has a speech impediment [In reply to] Can't Post

and is the only one in the company to remember/know where Bombur and Bofur are. May add to the fact that it isn't just a journey for Bilbo??


In Reply To

As I recall, Bifur's only spoken line in the book comes when Smaug has left his lair, and is about to go berserk on the mountan, when Bifur goes "My cousins! Bombur and Bofur we have forgotten them, they are down in the valley!" It could be that they are trying to add even more importance, and tension, to that particular scene, by having it being one of the few times (if not only time) Bifur speaks coherently.



DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 5:23pm

Post #173 of 242 (8698 views)
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Special fried Galadriel hair noodles / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Jun 19 2012, 5:25pm

Post #174 of 242 (8712 views)
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reply [In reply to] Can't Post

Yummy....

Good point concerning bifurs mutenness...If hes almost mute all the time and communicates through body language..then the outburst of concern for his cousins will be even more evident...


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 19 2012, 5:32pm

Post #175 of 242 (8717 views)
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Great idea for a network television series [In reply to] Can't Post

Nurse: Your surgeon is out today, so Gimli M.D. will be filling in.

Patient: Um...

Gimli M.D. with an axe: Do not worry, young patient. We dwarves are natural surgeons, and have a great deal of experience embedding our axes in the nervous systems of unsuspecting humanoids. And we know about the consistency of squirrell droppings too. Nurse, bring me some Dwaaaaaaaaarven ale! *raises axe above patient's head*

Patient: Nooooooooooooo!


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Jun 19 2012, 5:36pm)


Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Jun 19 2012, 5:36pm

Post #176 of 242 (8745 views)
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reply [In reply to] Can't Post

The fabled hospitality of the dwarves...roaring screaming...
squirrel encyclopedia...ripe meat of the surgery table...this, my patient is the home of my MDs ....and they call it a mine...a MINE!

Patient gulps....


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 5:38pm

Post #177 of 242 (8747 views)
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It does raise the question of why the company would take Bifur at all? / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 19 2012, 5:41pm

Post #178 of 242 (8738 views)
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They don't have much to work with [In reply to] Can't Post

A motley crew is better than no crew, I suppose.

Plus, I imagine they'll make him a fierce fighter when he finds out what's going on...


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 19 2012, 5:45pm

Post #179 of 242 (8743 views)
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Patient consultations... [In reply to] Can't Post

Patient: Hold on, where's my regular surgeon?

Gimli M.D.: Haha!

Patient: Wait a minute...

Gimli M.D.: Certainty of death, small chance of success...What are we waiting for?!! *raises axe above patient's head*

Patient: Nooooooo!!!


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 5:51pm

Post #180 of 242 (8736 views)
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Perhaps Bifur is a Tolkien minority [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink
http://newboards.theonering.net/...?post=458186;#458186


dave_lf
Rodnog

Jun 19 2012, 5:51pm

Post #181 of 242 (8716 views)
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I think you're on to something [In reply to] Can't Post

Much is explained. Severing the corpus callosum is actually a common last-ditch treatment for severe epilepsy. Clearly Bifur found himself on the receiving end of that procedure, courtesy of Gimli M.D.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 5:54pm

Post #182 of 242 (8734 views)
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A Witch Doctor [In reply to] Can't Post

Gimli: They say that a great Doctor lives in this hosptial. A witch Doctor of terrible power. All who look upon her, fall under her anesthesia... and are never seen again.


Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Jun 19 2012, 5:54pm

Post #183 of 242 (8737 views)
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reply to Shelobs Appetite [In reply to] Can't Post

Patient surgery

Patient sits on the surgeons table...but Gimli is too short to properly operate on him...

Assistant: Here MD Gimli, let me help you get u...
Gimli MD: NOBODY tosses a dwarf!....( jumps with raised axe to stick it to the table and secure his feet) UUUAAAAAAAAGGHHH!!

Patient faints....


Oin K
Llednevir


Jun 19 2012, 5:55pm

Post #184 of 242 (8795 views)
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So, I found a picture of Billy Connolly's stunt double [In reply to] Can't Post

You guys are not going to like this:
http://i.imgur.com/FP9FM.jpg

In all seriousness, I think a mohawk could be really cool-looking, as well as intimidating or downright terrifying, as long as they don't go overboard with scary tattoos or try to get too over the top awesome with it.

"The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their snouts were long. Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a snoutless Dwarf - unless he were rhinoplasted in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have snouts from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike..." (History of Middle Earth, volume 11, The War of the Truffles, p. 205)


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 19 2012, 6:00pm

Post #185 of 242 (8764 views)
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Why have a foward-backward mohawk [In reply to] Can't Post

When you can go sideways:

http://www.google.co.uk/...=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:73

But you raise a good point - all of us (I assume) are thinking of a modern-day mohawk.

There are plenty of acceptible variations - just google weird mohawks Wink


Macfeast
NahoR

Jun 19 2012, 6:33pm

Post #186 of 242 (8711 views)
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I can't do this all on my own, no I know, I'm no super-dwarf. [In reply to] Can't Post




Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Jun 19 2012, 6:44pm

Post #187 of 242 (8683 views)
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reply [In reply to] Can't Post

Every dwarf lies...Wink

Great photo by the way


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 19 2012, 6:48pm

Post #188 of 242 (8694 views)
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Haha! [In reply to] Can't Post

Legolas the nurse, of Mirkwood Hospital.

Gimli M.D.: Stitches? Ha! We have a much more efficient solution. Legolas, my laddie, we need your bow!

Legolas: *aims arrow at the patient's incision area*

Patient: *drowsily* Noooooo...ooooo....ooooo...


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Jun 19 2012, 6:48pm)


dormouse
Nevle-flah


Jun 19 2012, 6:53pm

Post #189 of 242 (8717 views)
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I don't think they need to make him a fierce fighter... [In reply to] Can't Post

 He was one, wasn't he? I was listening to the audio of The Hobbit in the car today and noticed that Bifur and Bombur were singled out as having put up a fierce fight before the trolls caught them.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jun 19 2012, 7:25pm

Post #190 of 242 (8690 views)
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I bet he gets great TV reception on that thing. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Saurons master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Carne
Aessere Lot

Jun 19 2012, 10:24pm

Post #191 of 242 (8641 views)
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Maybe Bofur and Bombur have taken care of him since he went a bit "crazy"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Being family and all they might not want to leave him behind.


Captain Salt
Aessere Lot


Jun 19 2012, 10:54pm

Post #192 of 242 (8609 views)
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That's the impression one gets in the shot where they're attempting to tend(?) to him in one of the vlogs (may have been 3)// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Jun 19 2012, 10:54pm)


droidsocket
Neirol

Jun 19 2012, 10:58pm

Post #193 of 242 (8595 views)
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Kinda like... [In reply to] Can't Post

Silent Bob!

It's the adventures of Bilbo and Silent Bifur! Snoochie boochies!


Demosthenes
Sr. Staff


Jun 20 2012, 3:53am

Post #194 of 242 (8571 views)
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red hammer ... axe [In reply to] Can't Post

Dain's axe was red.

Worth pointing out.

TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and Hall of Fire moderator


AinurOlorin
Nevle-flah


Jun 20 2012, 5:00am

Post #195 of 242 (8554 views)
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He had common sense and knew when he was outmatched, certainly. [In reply to] Can't Post

He had felt the fear of a mighty Maia Spirit from before the forming of The World, the very demon who had driven the dwarves from Khazad-Dum in the first place, slaying their great kings and routing their armies.

I don't know if there will be a visual nod to The Balrog or not, but I feel if the history of The Dwarves is going to be explored at all, then He must be given some acknowledgement, for he was the chief instrument of their initial and greatest misfortune. The Balrog singlehandedly exiled The Dwarves from the most ancient and mighty homeland they knew. He did from within what Sauron could not manage from without, and in doing so allowed it to devolve into the haven of orcs and trolls that it later became. Following Sauron's hatred for Durin's heirs, as related to the ring they bore but were not subjectated by, The Balrog is the first and worst of the great misfortunes of Durin's house, and also the longest reigning, driving them from their nation and denying them any hope of return for a thousand years.

In Reply To
I left it kinda implicit in my piece as I felt I'd already rabbitted on long enough, but when I referred to Dain's wisdom, the scene between Thrain and Dain was key in my mind.

It would take not just a lot of guts, but a lot of smarts, to reject one's liegelord in such a situation.

Reading the passage in the appendices, and I think it's the only speaking piece he has ANYWHERE, it's clear that he's a thinker as well as a fighter.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 20 2012, 5:07am

Post #196 of 242 (8566 views)
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Gimli M.D. continued [In reply to] Can't Post

Patient wakes, and looks around.

Gimli M.D.: Aha! There is one patient in this hospital that still draws breath!!! *raises axe over patient's head*

Patient: Noooooooo!!!!


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Jun 20 2012, 5:09am)


dave_lf
Rodnog

Jun 20 2012, 12:47pm

Post #197 of 242 (8529 views)
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There's no such thing as too much [In reply to] Can't Post

You're killing me with these things. My turn.

Patient: Wait, who are you? Where's my regular surgeon?
Gimli M.D.: Give me your name, and I shall give you mine.
Patient: I'm not so sure about thi...
Gimli M.D.: You might as well accept it.
Patient: No, seriously, I...
Gimli M.D.: Bring your pretty face to my axe!
[Sound effects]
Gimli M.D.: Legolas, two already!
Legolas R.N.: I'm on 17!
Gimil M.D. [to himself]: Let's hope they last the night.


(This post was edited by dave_lf on Jun 20 2012, 12:54pm)


Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Jun 20 2012, 1:45pm

Post #198 of 242 (8477 views)
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gloin [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you guys think Gloin will be as vigorous and energetic and funny lines giver as his son was in LOTR?


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 20 2012, 1:56pm

Post #199 of 242 (8510 views)
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I'm hoping for similar mannerisms [In reply to] Can't Post

As you say, they are Father and Son afterall. What could Gloin do though, that would represent Gimli?


Lusitano
Aessere Lot


Jun 20 2012, 2:40pm

Post #200 of 242 (8475 views)
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gloin [In reply to] Can't Post

Well...he already ha a similar look to him....the question of the voice and way of speaking...though i wonder if they chose another vocality, because peter hamblton 's voice is quite different....at least from interviews and vblogs...

He might have a similar fighting style...


Xanaseb
Aessere Lot


Jun 20 2012, 3:02pm

Post #201 of 242 (8653 views)
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well there is that -possible- photo shown in the trailer... could be Gimli??... though this has already been discussed and we concluded that it's most likely of Hobbit origin di we not? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!

________________________________________________

Laketown guy: What have the dwarves -ever- done for us?

Bard: The aqueduct!

Laketown guy: Piss off! We're not from Dale


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 20 2012, 3:10pm

Post #202 of 242 (8637 views)
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Gimli M.D. gets in trouble [In reply to] Can't Post

Gimli M.D.: Toss me.
Patient: I'm calling the cops.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 20 2012, 3:15pm

Post #203 of 242 (8628 views)
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It never looked like Gimli/JRD to me / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


imin
Ronilav


Jun 20 2012, 3:31pm

Post #204 of 242 (8603 views)
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hoping against the 'funny' one liners of gimli [In reply to] Can't Post

Gimli is a favourite character of mine and i think they kinda ruined him for me in LOTR. I understand there had to be comic relief but to me that is all Gimli became along with Merry and Pippin but even they grew up a bit along the way.

I think there are already other dwarves in TH who are going to be the funny ones so i dont think we need Gloin's character to be sacrificed to comic relief as well otherwise they might all end up just being comic relief, lol.

As for how they look i think there are some similarities such as the hair colour and Gloin being one of the more conservative/better designs of dwarf but like daniellb i dont think there is too much similar about them.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 20 2012, 3:36pm

Post #205 of 242 (8622 views)
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Yes, they didn't do Gimli justice [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps they can redeem themselves with Gloin


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 20 2012, 3:37pm

Post #206 of 242 (8608 views)
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Amen [In reply to] Can't Post

We are going to be with these dwarves for about six hours of film, and I hope they aren't a constant and unrelenting source of unfunny one-liners.

I hope they make them humorous in a natural way. You know, the way people can be funny on road trips.


Yngwulff
Rodnog


Jun 20 2012, 4:50pm

Post #207 of 242 (8610 views)
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A series of one liners would be a shame [In reply to] Can't Post

I get the feeling Bombur will be the butt of many a joke and one liners.

I hope I'm wrong, but fear the worst.


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Jun 20 2012, 5:38pm

Post #208 of 242 (8566 views)
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More dwarf tossing jokes [In reply to] Can't Post

or beard pulling Crazy ohh please I hope not Angelic


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 20 2012, 6:00pm

Post #209 of 242 (8565 views)
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No, none of them [In reply to] Can't Post

But I hope they make it believable enough they are Father and Son - mannerisms as in actions/walking/thoughts rather than jokes and puns.


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Jun 20 2012, 7:00pm

Post #210 of 242 (8540 views)
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Me either [In reply to] Can't Post

I would rather see a somewhat serious portrayal of the dwarfs although I'm sure they will ring every last fat joke out of poor old Bombur Angelic


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 20 2012, 8:52pm

Post #211 of 242 (8533 views)
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More from Connolly - may be worth a new thread? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=10814478


Quote

"I hate them all. Kill them all. Especially elves," he says.



Looks like there will be elf-dwarf slaughter...


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Jun 20 2012, 9:47pm)


Carne
Aessere Lot

Jun 20 2012, 8:57pm

Post #212 of 242 (8511 views)
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Possibly all this killing happens due to some disagreement gone a bit too far? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think we'll just see Dain kill elves for no reason.


(This post was edited by Carne on Jun 20 2012, 8:58pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 20 2012, 9:01pm

Post #213 of 242 (8522 views)
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Billy never says he kills any elves [In reply to] Can't Post

Just that his character Dain is up for killing them all.

I wouldn't read anything into this one. Unlike the other comments, where he mentioned very specific physical attributes of his character (and his mount) this is him just expounding on the subtleties of his character.

My guess is that he arrives ready and chomping at the bit to take home some elf scalps, and then the Orcs show up.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 20 2012, 9:03pm

Post #214 of 242 (8523 views)
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I've always liked the idea [In reply to] Can't Post

of elves/men/dwarves killing elves/men/dwarves because they disagree with the sudden "union". After all, many of them marched to war with intent to kill dwarves (and vice versa). Makes sense, for cinematic reasons, to show this.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 20 2012, 9:05pm

Post #215 of 242 (8511 views)
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Well of course Billy wouldn't kill any elves! [In reply to] Can't Post

I read his comments differently. But you could be right!


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 20 2012, 9:13pm

Post #216 of 242 (8501 views)
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Would make little sense, however [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would these individuals disagree with the sudden union, if that union is precipitated by an unexpected attack from a more hated (and common) enemy, the orcs? It is quite normal human behavior to band together against a shared existential threat (basic alliance theory) and it would take a rather convoluted explanation to have some of the members of the groups violently disagree with the decision to focus on the orcs...

Would be a strange and unnecessary change, IMO, and would likely be confusing to audiences.

Don't see it as more cinematic, either.


dave_lf
Rodnog

Jun 20 2012, 10:10pm

Post #217 of 242 (8480 views)
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It's canon [In reply to] Can't Post

In the book, the dwarves do actually launch an attack on the elves+men just before news of the goblins arrives and puts a stop to it. So Dain can kill him a couple of elves without any invention from the scriptwriters.


Yngwulff
Rodnog


Jun 20 2012, 10:11pm

Post #218 of 242 (8478 views)
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Orcs [In reply to] Can't Post

Everybody hates Orcs LOL!!!


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well


BeornBerserker
Neirol

Jun 20 2012, 11:34pm

Post #219 of 242 (8470 views)
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And nasty hobbitses! Sorry got into the moment. [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Jun 20 2012, 11:34pm

Post #220 of 242 (8486 views)
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I always seen it as [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf arrives just in time to stop any fighting that would have occurred between the 3 armies... At least thats my understanding of it. I think Dain is under the assumption that he is going to be killing elves when he begins his journey to help Thorin and company but when it really actually hits the fan before the BO5A, then he understands that he wont be fighting elves and will have to split a few orc/goblin skulls instead Wink

I don't think Jackson makes the best choices when it comes to his scripts but I don't think he would actually have the 3 armies fighting each other at all in the film(s)


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Jun 20 2012, 11:36pm)


DarkJackal
NahoR


Jun 21 2012, 12:05am

Post #221 of 242 (8457 views)
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Much as I want to see a bloody fight [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't quite agree that Dain's army killing a bunch of elves is canon. It says arrows were shot, yes, but that could have been just gauging the range. Never actually says anyone got hit. A possibility, but not a certainty.

This does not mean I think the movie need follow the book in all ways. Not remotely, especially when it comes to Bo5A. So, give me a Dain smeared with elf blood, or elves with dwarves at the point of their "skinny swords" and I'll be happy enough.


(This post was edited by DarkJackal on Jun 21 2012, 12:07am)


Voronw_the_Faithful
Ronilav

Jun 21 2012, 12:35am

Post #222 of 242 (8457 views)
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That better be it [In reply to] Can't Post

I would be extremely disappointed to the point of probably avoiding the films altogether if it became clear that the Dwarves and Elves are actually killing each other. As you say, it would make no sense at all.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


AinurOlorin
Nevle-flah


Jun 21 2012, 5:42am

Post #223 of 242 (8427 views)
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I think they need to follow Tolkien's lead [In reply to] Can't Post

He made the hilarious! But not in a stupid, one liner type way. They were funny in the natural way you speak of. Sometimes grumpy, sometimes grousy, sometimes jovial, sometimes a little fretful etc. etc.: Gloin voicing his doubts about Bilbo, for example, Bombur never missing a meal, or all the dwarves being terribly anxious about Gandalf leaving them without his guidance and power on the threshold of Mirkwood, but trying to cover their worries by being especially crabby towards him at their parting. lol.

In Reply To
We are going to be with these dwarves for about six hours of film, and I hope they aren't a constant and unrelenting source of unfunny one-liners.

I hope they make them humorous in a natural way. You know, the way people can be funny on road trips.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 21 2012, 5:45am

Post #224 of 242 (8426 views)
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Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien actually had a very good sense of humor, and I think PJ could learn a thing or two from it...

BTW, has anyone heard anything else about this alleged "food fight" that seems to be happening in the Rivendell scenes from the trailer?


AinurOlorin
Nevle-flah


Jun 21 2012, 5:46am

Post #225 of 242 (8458 views)
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But you are calculating without the Wizard, [In reply to] Can't Post

which it is never wise to do. lol. Gandalf knows the goblins are coming by the time the other armies take the field. And he has a knack for knowing how to get people's attention (and get them in line) when he really needs to. Wink

In Reply To
of elves/men/dwarves killing elves/men/dwarves because they disagree with the sudden "union". After all, many of them marched to war with intent to kill dwarves (and vice versa). Makes sense, for cinematic reasons, to show this.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Nevle-flah


Jun 21 2012, 5:51am

Post #226 of 242 (8792 views)
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I think this is about right [In reply to] Can't Post

If Elves had been hit, then the fighting would have begun in earnest. Recall, however, that while Bard was ready for the fight, Thranduil was hesitant. "Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold." And then there is old Gandalf. In a battle that predates guns and most cannons by millenia, a sudden peal of tremendous thunder and a searing lightning bolt sent from ground to sky has a way of getting folks to pause and listen to what you have to say.

In Reply To
I can't quite agree that Dain's army killing a bunch of elves is canon. It says arrows were shot, yes, but that could have been just gauging the range. Never actually says anyone got hit. A possibility, but not a certainty.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 21 2012, 5:58am

Post #227 of 242 (8790 views)
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But the poster suggested [In reply to] Can't Post

That some of the dwarves and elves might "disagree with the sudden union." I was responding to that.

Once the orcs arrive, disagreements are set aside. Period.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 21 2012, 7:06am

Post #228 of 242 (8777 views)
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Everybody might hate orcs [In reply to] Can't Post

But I am sure there are plenty of men/dwarves/elves that would kill other men/elves/dwarves for the fun of it!


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 21 2012, 7:08am

Post #229 of 242 (8783 views)
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Yes, on the whole, you are right [In reply to] Can't Post

But disagreements would not *fully* be set aside.

If you were an elf or man who had a real hatred for dwarves, what would you do in a battle? Sure, you'd chop of orc heads, as you hate them too. But I'm sure if a dwarf got in the way you wouldn't think twice!


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 21 2012, 7:15am

Post #230 of 242 (8779 views)
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Yes, I am [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf is the voice of reason. If it happens the way it is intended (as in the book Wink) then there should be no significant dwarf/elf/man killing.

I suspect that Gandalf will arrive late at the Battle though (miss the Arkenstone exchange etc...)

He will arrive on an eagle, of course.

Shooting flames from his staff.

And Radagast dropping bunnies from an eagles talons.


AinurOlorin
Nevle-flah


Jun 21 2012, 7:30am

Post #231 of 242 (8768 views)
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Lol. [In reply to] Can't Post

God, I hope they just stick to the damned text on that bit. Lol. I don't think Gandalf will just drop in mid battle though. I think he will be present in Thranduil's tent, just as in the book, as I very much doubt the Dol Guldur assault is going to run that close to the Battle of Five Armies.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 21 2012, 7:36am

Post #232 of 242 (8749 views)
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I hope so too [In reply to] Can't Post

But Gandalf does like to arrive just in time. PJ may decide to change events...


DarkJackal
NahoR


Jun 21 2012, 11:06am

Post #233 of 242 (8757 views)
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If Gandalf is late... [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe the bunny sled broke down on the way there.

And if he was late, then the fight would have begun for real. Thranduil may have been hesitant because he had the upper hand with the luxury to wait it out, but Dain knew the dwarves were outnumbered with the element of surprise taken from them by Bilbo (thnx much little rat!) So all he has is determination, but it is arguably stronger than the resolve of the elves since he was going to reclaim dwarven homeland. I don't think it changes the basic beliefs of the characters to have them engage in battle a bit before Gandalf puts a stop to it.


BeornBerserker
Neirol

Jun 21 2012, 1:07pm

Post #234 of 242 (8734 views)
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Pre battle [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose he could be talking about something other than the main battle. Perhaps we will see an Elf scouting party engage a forward vanguard of Dain's force with him leading it and all this prior to his army reaching the lonely mountain.


Sinister71
Aessere Lot


Jun 21 2012, 1:55pm

Post #235 of 242 (8714 views)
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a wizard is never late... [In reply to] Can't Post

He arrives precisely when he means to...Wink


DarkJackal
NahoR


Jun 21 2012, 4:14pm

Post #236 of 242 (8723 views)
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My apologies [In reply to] Can't Post

If Gandalf chooses to procrastinate on his way to the Bo5A, so that we may get more battle for our buck, then that is obviously his choice. Smile


Shelob'sAppetite
Ronilav

Jun 22 2012, 2:01am

Post #237 of 242 (8688 views)
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Actually [In reply to] Can't Post

I would rather have some outlandish mohawk - like the kind attributed to some Picts and Britons, than one of those standard, American or UK teenage boy mohawks like this one.

I also really want to see Thranduil in a very tall, outlandish headdress. Not sure why, but I do!



Eowyn of Penns Woods
Ronilav


Jun 22 2012, 3:05am

Post #238 of 242 (8729 views)
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But... but... but... [In reply to] Can't Post

It wasn't made for him! *whinegrumblegrumble*

**********************************


NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011


DarkJackal
NahoR


Jun 22 2012, 11:07pm

Post #239 of 242 (8628 views)
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So you're the one... [In reply to] Can't Post

...we should blame/thank for inspiring them on Dain's look. Tongue


TheSexyBeard
Neirol

Jun 23 2012, 10:27pm

Post #240 of 242 (8583 views)
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First Post, Hi all [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm really curious about Dain's look. The fact Billy Connoly described him as "terrifying" makes me think mohawk may be more akin to the "original" version rather than the punk hairstyle. I'm curious about his tattoos, I'm guessing then might be like Dwalin's. I find all the comparisons to Warhammer a bit funny (in a possibly ironic way) because the creators of Warhammer's take on Dain is not as out there compared to whats we have heard so far about Jackson and Weta's look:
http://www.games-workshop.com/...;prodId=prod1500384a

Dain's the ginger one, Balin's there as well.


DanielLB
Latrommi


Jun 23 2012, 10:52pm

Post #241 of 242 (8552 views)
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Welcome to TORN! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes you are right, and suggested something similar (regarding the actual mohawk) awhile back. I had never realised how many varieties of mohawk there were, until I googled it. You can have anything from punk to David Beckham. As soon as I read Connoly having a mohawk, I automatically thought of the punk version. The punk version is at the extreme end of the mohawk scale, a different style may actually work ... and look good.

I do hope we get *some* "traditional" looking dwarves though. I want beards tucked into belts!


TheSexyBeard
Neirol

Jun 23 2012, 11:17pm

Post #242 of 242 (8927 views)
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Thanks for the welcome! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I do hope we get *some* "traditional" looking dwarves though. I want beards tucked into belts!


I hope Dain's army fits the description in the book or at least feature elements clearly inspired by the text. It would be cool if Dain himself got a full blown, massive beard compared to some of the short beards some of Thorin's company seem to be sporting (I understand and appreciate the need to make each charcter their own, and varying beard length helps achieve this). Dain having a longer beard would also make him stand out compared to Thorin's company. Not that his description so far isn't going to make him stand out!

 
 

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