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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Wired: "Why the Hobbit Trailer Creeps Me Out"
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dave_lf
Gondor

Jan 16 2012, 5:03pm

Post #76 of 93 (1765 views)
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I think a lot of people are misunderstanding [In reply to] Can't Post

The article mentions romance, but that's not the main thrust. His major concern is that Gandalf is shown being needy. And needy toward, of all people, an elf. Gandalf may be unsure of himself from time to time, but if so, he doesn't show it (except perhaps through nervous pacing and a short temper). And if he ever did let his defenses down and pour his heart out to someone, he would not choose an elf. He's a mair and outranks elves considerably.

And I share the author's general annoyance with these authors' reluctance to let characters be strong.


(This post was edited by dave_lf on Jan 16 2012, 5:04pm)


RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 16 2012, 5:25pm

Post #77 of 93 (1736 views)
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That wasn't really what I meant. [In reply to] Can't Post

I meant that if anyone was going to be calming someone's insecurities, it should be Gandalf comforting Galadriel, since he is practically a demigod and the Elves are just created beings.



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Jan 16 2012, 7:59pm

Post #78 of 93 (1824 views)
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I don't think Gandalf - (some spoilers) [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
he is practically a demigod and the Elves are just created beings.


- sees himself as being 'greater' than other beings.

If I remember correctly, when the Five Wizards were chosen, Olórin (Gandalf ) never wanted the job in the first place, one of his reasons being the fact that he was afraid he lacked the strength to face Sauron.

However, once he agreed to be a Wizard, he took it very seriously.

Knowing his limits, and knowing what was at stake, it's not surprising that he'd accept a pep talk (of sorts) from a friend.


(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Jan 16 2012, 8:03pm)


RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 16 2012, 9:05pm

Post #79 of 93 (1684 views)
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I think the issue is... [In reply to] Can't Post

...his self-effacing nature notwithstanding, as a maiar, he shouldn't need a peptalk. Humility is one thing. Pretending to be weak when you're nothing of the sort is entirely different.

And if he lacks the strength to face Sauron, then Galadriel doesn't stand a chance.



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 16 2012, 9:27pm

Post #80 of 93 (1684 views)
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From Unfinished Tales: [In reply to] Can't Post

"Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearinesses coming from the flesh.
"But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aule, and Alatar, who was sent by Orome. Then Manwe asked, where was Olorin? And Olorin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwe would have of him. Manwe replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle Earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that 'Olorin was a lover of the Eldar that remained', apparently to explain Manwe's choice). But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron."
-Unfinished Tales, Part IV, The Istari

******************************************
"Oh, Gandalf, Gandalf, you fool! Can’t you see how I feel?"
"Yeah, I see. I see our troubles don’t amount to a hill of beans. You belong with Celeborn. And I need to go find the only one who can save us."



RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 16 2012, 9:55pm

Post #81 of 93 (1726 views)
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Right. But still. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf is a peer of Sauron.

Galadriel is not.



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Owain
Tol Eressea


Jan 16 2012, 9:59pm

Post #82 of 93 (1683 views)
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Agreed.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 16 2012, 10:08pm

Post #83 of 93 (1705 views)
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Yeah, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

...comfort can come to the mighty from many sources. Such as, say, from a humble little hobbit.

******************************************
"Oh, Gandalf, Gandalf, you fool! Can’t you see how I feel?"
"Yeah, I see. I see our troubles don’t amount to a hill of beans. You belong with Celeborn. And I need to go find the only one who can save us."



dave_lf
Gondor

Jan 16 2012, 10:14pm

Post #84 of 93 (1711 views)
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Comfort, yes [In reply to] Can't Post

Comfort, yes, but it's hard for me to imagine Gandalf making himself vulnerable to a Hobbit or elf. Though if he were going to pick an elf, I guess Galadriel would be on the short list.


Dzhon
Bree

Jan 16 2012, 10:37pm

Post #85 of 93 (1705 views)
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Gandalf's character & origins [In reply to] Can't Post

Due to copyright and license issues, I'm pretty sure that PJ and co. cannot use any of Tolkien's published writings other than The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings in their adaptation. I therefore doubt that they read "Unfinished Tales", "The Silmarillion", etc. To the extent that the screenwriters do consult with Tolkien experts on Tolkien's other works, it would have to be to ensure that they include nothing that can be construed as having derived from them.

Gandalf appeared similarly grieved in FotR when Frodo took on the burden of first carrying the One Ring to Rivendell and later to Mordor. One the one hand, he clearly recognized that this was what needed to be done, but he was just as clearly torn about having to imperiling those who he cared about. I imagine he'd be similarly conflicted over exploiting Thorin's lust to reclaim Erebor and Bilbo's latent curiosity as part of his greater goal of restoring Erebor and Dale as a potential bulwark against Sauron (the outline of his motives in "The Quest of Erebor" is fortunately contained within the LotR appendices).


RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 16 2012, 11:44pm

Post #86 of 93 (1715 views)
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Until the movie comes out, [In reply to] Can't Post

we have no way of knowing how it will play out.

I think that's all the author of the article is trying to convey. This could be one moment where Gandalf and Galadriel are contemplating the difficult task ahead of them, and for a brief second Gandalf lets his hair down, so to speak. And that is fine.

The author simply hopes that this isn't a sign that Gandalf's character is going to be weakened and made hesitant and vulnerable throughout the film.



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jan 17 2012, 12:40am

Post #87 of 93 (1709 views)
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At least some of them have read UT and the Sil. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Ring of Barahir, which Aragorn wore throughout and which was featured in TTT-EE, didn't come out of thin air. One assumes the Estate didn't complain because it was only clearly recognizable in the EE. There were other wisps, but that one was the most blatant.






Stay tuned for a Reading Room discussion of Tolkien: A Cultural Phenomenon by Brian Rosebury, starting January 23!

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 17 2012, 1:38am

Post #88 of 93 (1668 views)
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Why wouldn't have they? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've read them, so why wouldn't they?

And from the films it appears that they have.

For example Aragorn’s description of the Nazgul to the hobbits in Bree borrows heavily from their description in The Sil, “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"

Interestingly a previous version from an earlier script also draws form it:

“They were Kings…great Kings of Men. Sauron gave to them Nine Rings of Power and with them the promise of eternal rule…unending life. They took the Rings without question…and one by one, regardless of their strength to good or evil…they fell. They are the Ringwraiths, the Nazgul, the Nine Servants of Sauron.”
-Previous draft of the FOTR script

And the little islet that Theodred was found on in the TTT EE is mentioned only in Unfinished Tales, "The Battles of the Fords of Isen”.

And as Elizabeth notes, though it's mentioned by name in LOTR, the actual description of the Ring of Barahir is from The Sil and HoMe III (The Lay of Leithian).

The guys doing the films are pretty smart people so I assume they surely know just as much as I do if not more.

******************************************
"Oh, Gandalf, Gandalf, you fool! Can’t you see how I feel?"
"Yeah, I see. I see our troubles don’t amount to a hill of beans. You belong with Celeborn. And I need to go find the only one who can save us."



Dzhon
Bree

Jan 17 2012, 4:34am

Post #89 of 93 (1677 views)
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Wasn't intended as criticism of PJ and co. [In reply to] Can't Post

For all the criticism leveled at PJ, Fran, and Phillipa, they have deviated far less from their source material than most screenwriters. All I meant by avoiding Tolkien's other works is that they wouldn't want to inadvertently include any material forbidden to them. That may even be why that line about the Nazgul was altered/shortened.

At any rate, that passage you quoted from Unfinished Tales demonstrates that humanizing Gandalf should not be considered out of bounds.


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Jan 17 2012, 6:46am

Post #90 of 93 (1687 views)
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I don't think Gandalf's too proud - [In reply to] Can't Post

- too admit something is stressing him.

We've seen him when he's impressed (by a 'lesser' being) and when he's irritated - behaviour traits that are considered more human than 'angelic'.

Also, the shapes the Maiar chose seemed to have a way of shaping their personalities and behaviour.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 22 2012, 6:04am

Post #91 of 93 (1611 views)
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Entirely agreed. A friend and counsellor has taken on a mighty burden, with little thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

to quote a pretty girl in a great 80s movie with a rockstar Elfin Goblin King, Gandalf passed through "Dangers untold and hardships unumbered," on behalf of all the free children and creatures of The World. . . to be all but blatantly scorned by a Saruman, a jealous kinsman who should have been his most staunch ally and friend. His hard work to protect the Elves put into peril, along with the Elves themselves, because the power of Saruman's persuassion, even over The Wise, was not easily overcome, even when Saruman's interests were not in the best interest of those around him.

Galadriel knew the burdens Gandalf bore. I see this gesture in a very positive light. Not that of a lover or of a Holy mother to a disconsolate child, but that of a friend and, as much as she can be a pupil to anyone, pupil (of sorts) reassuring a wearying and slightly disheartened mentor that his words of wisdom are not wholly unheeded and his works are not in vain. I see in that touch affectionate reassurance but also appreciation. It says, "I know how much you are doing for me, for my people, and for all the children of the world, and I am thankful for it, and I have faith that your work will not be vain. You have my thanks and my support." That to me is what that touch is about.

There are MANY things, from no Glorfindel, to Gandalf's diminished magic, to that business with The Witch King, to an insufficient explanation of the connection between The One Ring and The Three Rings and its relation to the departure of The Elves, which really annoyed me about Peter's adaptation of LOTR, and there will probably be a couple of changes that rile me up in The Hobbit. This show of familiarity and friendship between Wizard and Elf Matriarch is NOT going to be one of them. I was very moved by it, in fact, and look forward to seeing the scene in its entirety.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


alienorchid
Lorien


Jan 22 2012, 7:41am

Post #92 of 93 (1597 views)
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Bravo, well said! [In reply to] Can't Post

I totally agree. I think the moment captures something very 'Tolkien' - the moment of light in the darkness that friendship provides.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 25 2012, 6:09am

Post #93 of 93 (1598 views)
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Thank you. We are in total agreement. [In reply to] Can't Post

I am glad that this seems to be the majority opinion on this matter. I am looking forward to the full scene.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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