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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Wanted: scholars of the cirth and the tengwar... [some trailer-based spoilers]
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Demosthenes
Sr. Staff


Dec 27 2011, 10:56am

Post #1 of 32 (6671 views)
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Wanted: scholars of the cirth and the tengwar... [some trailer-based spoilers] Can't Post

When I was working on the TOR.n frame-by-frame I was drawn to this scene where Gandalf descends (or ascends) inside a hollow tower.



I spotted that the door-frame (pillars and lintel) on the extreme right of the above shot seemed to be carved with some sort of runes.



So I started digging a bit. My initial, hurried conclusion was that they could be indicative that Gandalf was travelling through Moria. I thought I could see a KH and a A on the left pillar just above that deep topmost deep cut into the stone.



After doing some dodgy CSI-style photoshop work to pull out as much detail as possible I no longer think this is the case. I've also piled pillar on linter on pillar (from left to right for ease of analysis.

But I'm still not certain what the runes are, or what they might say. I'm not even totally convinced that they're Cirth -- if they are they're very unevenly worn in a place that doesn't seem prone to uneven wear.

Canonically, the only alternative is Tengwar, and that seems even less likely. Maybe Jackson is messing with us.

So, my question: can anyone here identify and decipher these letters?

TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and HOF moderator
----
Words With Pictures

(This post was edited by Demosthenes on Dec 27 2011, 10:58am)


geordie
Tol Eressea

Dec 27 2011, 11:11am

Post #2 of 32 (5797 views)
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'Tis a phrase long known in Elven lore - [In reply to] Can't Post

- "Celeborn Hearts Galadriel"


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Dec 27 2011, 12:07pm

Post #3 of 32 (5799 views)
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well I'm no cirth scholar, but I can certainly spot a poorly carved "G" rune at the beginning of your second... [In reply to] Can't Post

 ....to last photo. the weird english looking capital L or acute angle rune next to it I've never ever seen before.

I can just about spot an "ea" in the photo above, a rune not in the original appendix of LOTR but known in angerthas erebor. It looks like an english m but with the sides angled down.
I can, like you also see an "a" quite clearly...but not really a "kh"...its too dark and pixellated.
there could also be an "ia" another non-original cirth from the erebor mode (i think). which looks like an english capital W. i can almost see it as the second to last rune in that photo.

great to use my cirth knowledge for once...but its too dark and unclear at the moment to be sure

:)


The Five Isari:

Sarry, Gandy, Raddy, Ally and Pally

A great bunch :)

(This post was edited by Xanaseb on Dec 27 2011, 12:07pm)


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Dec 27 2011, 12:13pm

Post #4 of 32 (5700 views)
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if that is a huge enlarged rune in your bottom picture then [In reply to] Can't Post

that is either a "h" or a "s" rune depending on which mode or preference you have (i always use it for "h")

also, the alternative for that possible "g" rune is that it could be an "L" rune as it also has a squiggly bit angling down to the left of the stem...

hmmm this is such a fun mystery!


The Five Isari:

Sarry, Gandy, Raddy, Ally and Pally

A great bunch :)


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Dec 27 2011, 12:28pm

Post #5 of 32 (5718 views)
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actually that "ia" capital w rune looks unlikely the more i look at it... [In reply to] Can't Post

there might even be another "a" rune within it so...

there seem to be few consonants I can actually spot so far!


The Five Isari:

Sarry, Gandy, Raddy, Ally and Pally

A great bunch :)


burrahobbit
Rohan


Dec 27 2011, 3:00pm

Post #6 of 32 (5765 views)
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Moria or Dol Guldur? [In reply to] Can't Post

The likely motivation for Gandalf to explore Moria in relation to the Hobbit story would be to find Thrain I think. If you look at the tower descending sequence closely you can see the scabbard of Gandalf's sword. This sword is probably Glamdring and this may date this sequence to after the trolls scene.

Another theory is that this scene is at Dol Guldur, with Gandalf descending to discover what evils lie in the depths of the fortress. It all seems very empty for Dol Guldur admittedly, but so do the outdoor Dol Guldur shots shown in the trailer. Perhaps the film's emphasis will be on Sauron's subterfuge. His return is a secret Gandalf has to delve deep to uncover.

Not sure if this will help decipher the runes though! Despite your excellent CSI efforts Demosthenes I can't make much out. If anything for me, the runes on top of the door appear to be in a different script from the vertical runes- more curved and flowing, more elvish and less dwarvish.


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Dec 27 2011, 3:35pm

Post #7 of 32 (5630 views)
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No idea what reads there, just passing by to say this fandom is awesome. That's all. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

<3 Gandy, Raddy, Sharkey, Ally & Pally <3

(This post was edited by Faenoriel on Dec 27 2011, 3:36pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Dec 27 2011, 4:24pm

Post #8 of 32 (5640 views)
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i might be wrong [In reply to] Can't Post

but from all I have read and seen Gandalf was not actually looking for Thrain. He merely found him in DolGuldur wile trying to find out for sure that the Necromancer was Sauron. it was totally coincidence.


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 27 2011, 5:15pm

Post #9 of 32 (5621 views)
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You rock Dem! B-) [In reply to] Can't Post

I have nothing of value to contribute here, but I wanted to let you know that I contacted the webmaster of Gwaith-i-Phethdain and sent him a link to this thread.

I also asked him if he'll be doing the same linguistic analysis for The Hobbit as he did for LOTR.

Let's see what he says Cool



The Plan 9 Interview... in celebration of the 10th anniversary of the release of The Fellowship of the Ring.


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Dec 27 2011, 5:29pm

Post #10 of 32 (5581 views)
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yeah....a good pet theory! [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf may unexpectedly notice Dwarvish runic graffiti on the walls, leading him to a Dwarf who he realises is Thrain or knows is Thrain etc. (after or before they have a violent encounter with each other)

coolio

:)

I agree with burrahobbit, they do look quite different in style. Though once again, its hard to tell...


The Five Isari:

Sarry, Gandy, Raddy, Ally and Pally

A great bunch :)


burrahobbit
Rohan


Dec 27 2011, 5:41pm

Post #11 of 32 (5619 views)
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Why would we visit Moria in The Hobbit? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes you're right that Gandalf finding Thrain in the dungeons of the necromancer was a coincidence. But I was wondering what the storyline purpose would be of having Gandalf visit Moria in the Hobbit films. The only link I can think of is Gandalf searching for the missing Thrain and/or the dwarven rings. This would happen as a flashback I think, so without Glamdring.

So I think storyline wise it is more likely to be Dol Guldur, but the architecture is Moria-like and not as malicious as you'd expect Dol Guldur to be, so can't be sure. Maybe the runes will tell us! Wink


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Dec 27 2011, 6:20pm

Post #12 of 32 (5599 views)
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actually I have come to the conclusion that the rune second from the right in the third from last photo... [In reply to] Can't Post

....is probably a "B" rune, the one that looks like a capital R, no. 2.


ps. I haven't been able to show these observations visually as Im posting via phone/tablet hehe
so sorry about the extremely vague pointers
much catch a pc soon to post some pics

:)


The Five Isari:

Sarry, Gandy, Raddy, Ally and Pally

A great bunch :)


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Dec 27 2011, 6:27pm

Post #13 of 32 (5652 views)
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In FotR Gandalf tells Gimli he searched for Thrain in Moria... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
"Good Gimli!" said Gandalf. "You encourage me. We will seek the hidden doors together. And we will come through. In the ruins of the Dwarves, a dwarf's head will be less easy to bewuilder than Elves or Men or Hobbits. Yet it will not be the first time that I have been to Moria. I sought there long for Thrain son of Thror after he was lost. I passed through, and I came out again alive!"


But Glamdring's presence seems to imply that this is indeed Dol Guldur.


(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Dec 27 2011, 6:30pm)


Aragalen the Green
Gondor

Dec 28 2011, 1:45am

Post #14 of 32 (5580 views)
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Glamdring or not? [In reply to] Can't Post

Does Gandalf have Glamdring in this scene? The scenes in the trailer show Gandalf in the ruins (Dol Guldur?), and some of them he has Glamdring in his right hand, but others where he is fighting "Thrain" he only has his staff in his right hand.


NickLeStrange
Registered User

Dec 28 2011, 1:52am

Post #15 of 32 (5523 views)
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Maybe? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know what the writing says, and it is hard to see the script properly, so I think it is best to rule out certain things so that we get a cleare picture, in our heads, as to narrow down the script.

I have come to the conclusion that it is not Runes, but Tengwar. If you increase the brightness, you can see slight curves in

the carving, which relates to the text here: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/tengwar.htm

Also, seeing as PJ has some room to play with, and is showing more than what is in the book, I think that it is safe to

presume that he would show Gandalf finding Train in the dungeons of Dol Guldur, which can be done easily in a retelling to

Thorin about how he came to get the map and key.

It would also be Tengwar if it were Dol Guldur in Mirkwood.

"Gandalf entered Moria through the Dimrill Gate while searching for ThrŠin II who disappeared in 2845."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moria_(Middle-earth)

"Gandalf returned to Dol Guldur in disguise in 2850 and found Thrain, father of Thorin Oakenshield, in the dungeon."
Source: http://www.tuckborough.net/gandalf.html

I think it's also safe to exclude Moria from the list, as in the trailer, we see Gandlaf descending stairs, where you can see

sky above him. You also see some roots and vines and some thorny type of wood around him, which can point to Mirkwood.

Because when Sauron came to Dol Guldur, Orc, Spiders and other dark creatures came to inhabit Mirkwood, and, I think Sauron

would have some influence of other things as well. You can also see Gandalf is somewhat troubled in that scene, and then you

see him carefully sneaking around in the vicinity of the door with the writing. Even though Gandalf is not in disguise in the

trailer, it is still plausible. He did return there to investigate the suspicions that the Wise had, about the return of Sauron.

So anyone lexic in Tengwar should, I think, try to see if it fits.



(This post was edited by NickLeStrange on Dec 28 2011, 1:54am)


Aragalen the Green
Gondor

Dec 28 2011, 1:59am

Post #16 of 32 (5515 views)
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Possibly! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank makes sense. I noticed the openness of the setting as opposed to Moria. Also Sauron used Tengwar ("Elvish runes") on the Ring, and that would fit with the script being used in Dol Guldur. Good eye for the lettering! I hadn't caught it.

Also it would be hard to translate, unless one knows the language Sauron used. I think Gandalf tells Frodo in FotR that the language on the Ring is that of Mordor, "which I will not utter here" (I could have the reference wrong, I can't find my copy of the book).


(This post was edited by Aragalen on Dec 28 2011, 2:04am)


burrahobbit
Rohan


Dec 28 2011, 1:24pm

Post #17 of 32 (5470 views)
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Tengwar date runes? [In reply to] Can't Post

The clearest rune I can see is the English like 'L' at the left of the lintel. After checking a couple of Tolkien language websites, this seems to be the Tengwar numeral for the number 4:

http://www.omniglot.com/images/writing/tengwar_num.gif

It's also possible judging by the next character that it could be the number five, with the vertical join between the characters eroded.

So my guess is that the vertical runes begin with some kind of date. The character before the 'L' looks like an x-like shape, but I haven't been able to find a translation for this character. Tolkien used an x-like Tengwar rune on the Moria gate, so maybe it's the same character. Any guesses?


titanium_hobbit
Rohan


Dec 28 2011, 9:26pm

Post #18 of 32 (5364 views)
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(not serious) [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a broken lift/elevator shaft, and the runes are floor numbers... :P

Hobbit firster, Book firster.


burrahobbit
Rohan


Dec 28 2011, 9:39pm

Post #19 of 32 (5393 views)
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Floor 4: Evil Spider Production [In reply to] Can't Post

Floor 3: Dwarf Torturing
Floor 2: Necromancy Department
Floor 1: Reception and Staff Canteen

:p


Darkstone
Immortal


Dec 28 2011, 9:47pm

Post #20 of 32 (5441 views)
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Oooo!!! A song to go with it!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHVRxzvkJao

******************************************
"Oh, Gandalf, Gandalf, you fool! Canít you see how I feel?"
"Yeah, I see. I see our troubles donít amount to a hill of beans. You belong with Celeborn. And I need to go find the only one who can save us."



burrahobbit
Rohan


Dec 28 2011, 10:07pm

Post #21 of 32 (5358 views)
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Lol [In reply to] Can't Post

Make it stop please! Crazy

I'm more than a little disturbed by that video! It's like some deviant version of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.


stoutfiles
Rohan

Dec 28 2011, 10:19pm

Post #22 of 32 (5405 views)
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Glamdring might not be important at all. [In reply to] Can't Post

Who's to say he even gets the sword after the troll encounter? Considering Jackson didn't bother making the sword glow in Moria in LOTR, he might not bother with finding the sword in The Hobbit either. It could just be a sword like any old sword, and Gandalf has always had it.

I would prefer in a flashback that Gandalf go to Moria first and then Dor Guldur like the books. I would also prefer he gets the sword after the trolls, but continuity has already been destroyed by LOTR so it doesn't even matter now. Sting is the "magical glowing sword" as defined by the casual movie fan, so Glamdring will likely not glow or be special in any way.


Demosthenes
Sr. Staff


Dec 28 2011, 10:20pm

Post #23 of 32 (5359 views)
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Belated thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been working on another, different piece regarding the trailer but just wanted to comment that there are excellent thoughts here.

I never would have worked out it was Angerthas Erebor -- that is fantastically helpful.

Once I'm done on the other, I'll be back to pick all this apart. :D

Many thanks!

TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and HOF moderator
----
Words With Pictures


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Dec 28 2011, 11:06pm

Post #24 of 32 (5449 views)
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Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting? [In reply to] Can't Post

It may not, but I'm really hoping so. If the movie has Thorin finding Orcrist, then they should mention Glamdring as well. Both swords have a role in the Goblin cave ("Beater and Biter") and in the Battle of Five Armies, but PJ may choose to leave them out.

I agree, in the FotR it is a shame that Glamdring doesn't glow but Sting does. It flashes nicely though.

Soon it began to rain and they all caught colds.


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Dec 29 2011, 5:04am

Post #25 of 32 (5348 views)
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(also not serious) [In reply to] Can't Post

"Made in Mordor"

Soon it began to rain and they all caught colds.

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