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talkingmongoose
The Shire
Jul 12 2011, 5:32pm
Post #2 of 601
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I was 9 seconds too late! I think they look great. Different, but great.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 12 2011, 5:34pm
Post #3 of 601
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Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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architecthis
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 5:34pm
Post #4 of 601
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These are the first two I'm a little worried about, Kili looks downright elvish to me...
I'm not going to judge until I see them in action tho
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architecthis
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 5:35pm
Post #5 of 601
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They are the youngest of the group..
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 12 2011, 5:40pm
Post #6 of 601
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Now I understand PJ's take on Thorin Oakenshield
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The Incredible Hunk.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Leviathan's Bane
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 5:40pm
Post #7 of 601
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...That these two rascals are the new Merry-Pippin duo for The Hobbit. 
"So knights are mythical!" said the younger and less experienced dragons. "We always thought so."
- J.R.R. Tolkien, "Farmer Giles of Ham"
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Leviathan's Bane
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 5:43pm
Post #9 of 601
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I think (I may be wrong) you're getting Kili's elvish look from his long, straight hair. I actually kind of like it, becuase it's a sort of rebel/youth dwarf look. That might not be the way they take Kili's character, but I'm betting he'll be spirited 
"So knights are mythical!" said the younger and less experienced dragons. "We always thought so."
- J.R.R. Tolkien, "Farmer Giles of Ham"
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Dwimbruk
The Shire
Jul 12 2011, 5:45pm
Post #10 of 601
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I agree, Kili doesn't look very dwarvish at all. But then, should we expect all dwarves to be fat? Aren't any of them allowed to look cool?
And I do like Fili's dual swords...
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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 5:46pm
Post #11 of 601
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Least "Dwarvish"-looking of the buch thus far...
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Rather undecided about these...at least Nori and Ori look like caricatures of "Dwarves"...
Still, sure they'll grow on me...
I would rather be watching Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit" and Ridley Scott's "Prometheus"...it's going to be a long few years.
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Gandalf'sMother
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 5:47pm
Post #12 of 601
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I like differentiation and variety, but...
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Okay, now, I understand that Fili and Kili are the youngest of the lot, but...a goatee and a five-o'clock shadow?
Appreciate the lack of prosthetics here, but give these kids some beards!
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Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 5:47pm
Post #13 of 601
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must have done something which Fili found amusing, but ticked Kili off, judging by their expressions 
..The land of long-forgotten name:
......no man may ever anchor near;
..No steering star his hope may aim,
......for nether Night its marches drear,
..And waters wide no sail may tame,
......with shores encircled dark and sheer.
..O! Haven where my heart would be!
......the waves beat upon thy bar
..For ever echo endlessly,
......when longing leads thy thought afar
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architecthis
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 5:49pm
Post #14 of 601
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It is definitely the hair and thin waist line but given these are the younger dwarves it makes sense..
the look on Fili's face is priceless
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Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 5:50pm
Post #15 of 601
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it being the long, straight hair that gives Kili an elvish air. The bow/quiver adds to the impression too.
..The land of long-forgotten name:
......no man may ever anchor near;
..No steering star his hope may aim,
......for nether Night its marches drear,
..And waters wide no sail may tame,
......with shores encircled dark and sheer.
..O! Haven where my heart would be!
......the waves beat upon thy bar
..For ever echo endlessly,
......when longing leads thy thought afar
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Pipe Dream
Gondor
Jul 12 2011, 5:50pm
Post #16 of 601
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I'm not sure how I feel about that. It just looks wrong. I guess they all had to be skinny at some point, and these are the two youngest.
"There is a long road yet," said Gandalf. "But it is the last road," said Bilbo.
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Pipe Dream
Gondor
Jul 12 2011, 5:57pm
Post #17 of 601
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..."neither being able to imagine the fate which lies before them."
"There is a long road yet," said Gandalf. "But it is the last road," said Bilbo.
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 5:57pm
Post #18 of 601
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Why are their ears so stupidly big?? Have we seen everyone now? Sept.. Balin or Bofur.. whichever one wasn't in Bag End...
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rings7
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 5:58pm
Post #19 of 601
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Definitely NOT what i expected
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Kili looks like Spanish dancer Joaquin Cortez with pointy ears, not dwarfish at all. But they surely look like they'll be the Merry and Pipin of the Hobbit. They look cool though. But that's not too dwarfish.
(This post was edited by rings7 on Jul 12 2011, 6:03pm)
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dave_lf
Gondor
Jul 12 2011, 5:59pm
Post #20 of 601
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Still need Bifur, Bofur, Bombur, Dwalin, Balin, and Thorin.
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Evernight
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 6:00pm
Post #21 of 601
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Are there L'oreal ads in these movies?
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First thing I don't quite like of what we've seen so far: they don't look like dwarves. Not a problem though, it could be just a bad picture.
In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit...
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Turambar
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 6:01pm
Post #22 of 601
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that they'll reveal Thorin and Balin last as they seem to be made out to be the two most influencial dwarves in the group
This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king, ruins town,
And beats high mountain down.
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 6:02pm
Post #23 of 601
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Sorry, I meant that we've seen them in the Empire pictures...//
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dave_lf
Gondor
Jul 12 2011, 6:05pm
Post #24 of 601
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I've been avoiding that picture since they started releasing these high-quality photos because I don't want to spoil the reveal! :)
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maut
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 6:06pm
Post #25 of 601
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Great as usual. One question *SPOILER ALERT*
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neither being able to imagine the fate which lies before them
Does that mean they' ll be killed as in the book?
Far over the misty mountains cold
To dungeons deep and caverns old
We must away ere break of day
To seek the pale enchanted gold.
__________________________________
...and the sound of the kettle on his hearth was ever after more musical than it had been even in the quiet days before the Unexpected Party
________________________________
Welcome back to Middle-Earth!!!
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 6:07pm
Post #26 of 601
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Their "fate" is gonna be a heartbreaker...
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..If they're entering the adventure with youthful enthusiasm. There's gonna be a very harsh, hard-to-watch scene toward the end...
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TheWhiteRider
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 6:10pm
Post #28 of 601
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they look like a couple of guys modelling medieval attire !!!
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droidsocket
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 6:19pm
Post #29 of 601
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I am not one to complain. I generally like what PJ comes up with. But Killi is down right terrible! Other than the large ears he looks 100% human. I am all for variety but they should at least look like they belong to the same race. But he doesn't. Unless his daddy got busy with a human or elf.
And I don't buy the " it's be cause they are young" argument either. Because by that logic all dwarves start out pretty and as they age they get dwarf like? Come on!
At the very least they have sweet weapons.
(This post was edited by droidsocket on Jul 12 2011, 6:22pm)
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kiwifan
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 6:20pm
Post #30 of 601
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at the very thought of their fate! They look so lovable (Fili) and downright gorgeous (Kili) --- quite undwarvish in my opinion but cute as anything (hah, now I'm outing myself as a female not impervious to male charm, right ). But perhaps they are indeed Dwarvish, in a 'rebellious youth' kind of way. After Oin and Glóin who embody Dwarvishness as I always pictured it, these two certainly are different --- but I hope they won't be like Merry and Pippin humour-wise since those two are Hobbits, after all, and I wouldn't like their particular brand of humour repeated in Dwarves. But I'm so looking forward to seeing what PJ and Co. are going to do with Fili and Kili, and so not looking forward to crying my eyes out...
'Goodness gracious, you really are a messie!' 'Oh no, I'm not, these are all just mathoms...'
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Rodu
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 6:21pm
Post #31 of 601
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Kili looks like a human with a wig, is he even wearing prosthetics? His nose looks like the actor's
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 6:22pm
Post #32 of 601
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I think they'll be the Legolas and Aragorn of the film. With Thorin as Boromir? //
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 6:24pm
Post #33 of 601
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Anybody have a hi-res picture to have a better look? Cheers!
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 6:24pm
Post #34 of 601
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Don't forget they'll be short...
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Maybe they'll look more dwarvish when stood next to a human or elf...
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Rodu
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 6:25pm
Post #35 of 601
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maybe dwarves don't grow beards till they become adults
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and it's Kili's 18th bday when they leave, I dunno
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RoseCotton
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 6:27pm
Post #36 of 601
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Aidan Turner will go A-list. Studios will start now to sign him up for big movie projects that begin filming from about next spring onwards (while he's still relatively cheap), and movies he's in will be released every three or four months thereafter...
What do you think the odds are?
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renzn
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 6:27pm
Post #38 of 601
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Big guy, tough spirit, soft heart
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I'm a big man but my heart melts when I see my child aching in pain. My heart ached when Théoden wept at the loss of his son Theodred. He said no parent should have to bury their child. I knew Théoden would die in the ROTK, but it didn't affect me watching the movie because he was just another man passing after a long life. Out of the LOTR characters, I enjoyed the interaction between Merry and Pippin most. I didn't like seeing Merry hurt when being carried by the Uruks. I truly felt happy when Merry and Pippin were reunited on the Pelennor field and in the movie Pippin said he knew Merry would find him.
I have no illusions Kili and Fili will have the same effect on this grandfather. I hate to see youth buried by their elders.
I’m a bit taken back by the short beard and straight hair of Kili, but it doesn’t matter to me. I just can’t wait to see those two characters youthful banter. It’ll bring a sense of hope when many situations (trolls, Goblins, Spiders, Smaug) seem bleak
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nobofthepony
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 6:27pm
Post #39 of 601
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personalities based on "audition sheet"
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Okay on the audition sheet, it says that Fili is the one who "feels the weight" and Kili is more carefree...yet the lines in that supposedly official audtion sheet reversed those.
So it looks like from this picture that Kili is the brooding one and Fili is the quick-witted playful one. Maybe they just reversed the two names and personalities? I know you can't tell everything from a photo but it looks like they're trying to put some of their characters into the pose...
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Gimli1252
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 6:28pm
Post #40 of 601
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ahh...so aragorn will be in the hobbit after all...!!!?
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Whaaat...???oh just a minute it's kili...
ok let's talk serious now...they look great, both of them, but i would like a sign of a beard for kili not a fluff..
also for the bow, i expected that one of them will has one cause they have the best vision among the dwarves...
''There is one dwarf yet in Moria, who still draws breath''
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Radagast_the_Brown
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 6:30pm
Post #41 of 601
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they're the younger, "hunkier" looking Dwarves. They've been pretty unorthodox overall so far, but I think most of the remaing ones will look decidedly more "traditional" so maybe I'll appreciate these two more in retrospect.
All you have to decide, is what to do with the time that is given to you...
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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 6:30pm
Post #42 of 601
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I think it's pretty clear they're going for Thorin as Aragorn in TH...which makes sense, given that the characters are reflections of each other, (with Aragorn really acting as a thematic "correction" on Thorin as well), while the "Merry & Pippin" comparison for Kili & Fili comparison seems apt.
Judging from the casting, that pic and what little info we have, I assume Kili will be the comparatively "serious", dependable one ALA Merry, and Fili will be the one who's constantly getting into trouble ALA Pippin...
I would rather be watching Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit" and Ridley Scott's "Prometheus"...it's going to be a long few years.
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 6:30pm
Post #43 of 601
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look like they could be in Mens Vogue of Middle-Earth! Look at Kili's hair! A bit high on the shampoos and conditioners are we? All in all a very good(if not stylish) example of young dwarves.
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 6:30pm
Post #44 of 601
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The "Orlando" of TH, then?
I would rather be watching Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit" and Ridley Scott's "Prometheus"...it's going to be a long few years.
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Rosebud
The Shire
Jul 12 2011, 6:31pm
Post #45 of 601
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I'm all for pushing the envelope a bit but this is nowhere close to how Tolkien described the characters. :-(
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 6:32pm
Post #46 of 601
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THEY LOOK SO WEIRD! they are nothing like I imagined,are they even where any of the dwarf make up ( e.g. nose and ears)? And where the hell are there beards? Yeah, agree Kili does look elvish and I'm also starting to get worried, I pray that my current opinon might change because Fili and kKli are my favourite of the dwarves and at the moment I think Weta have made a HUGE mistake...
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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willowing
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 6:32pm
Post #47 of 601
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If any of the dwarfs we have seen thus far looked liked Gimli I would be very disappointed. I think personality, heritage, size(big, small, short, tall, lanky) age, experience was considered when creating these characters for The Hobbit. 
They are so different and I like it.
As one poster said earlier the fate of Fili and Kili will be a tear jerker.
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mykonos
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 6:34pm
Post #48 of 601
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Fili looks like the grounded one, and Kili looks like he could get a little out of control. Fili looks like he could be saying "alright, let's scope out the situation" while Kili saying "LET'S GET 'EM!"
It's their expressions that is a little confusing 
(This post was edited by mykonos on Jul 12 2011, 6:35pm)
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Evernight
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 6:35pm
Post #49 of 601
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According to HoME dwarves are born with beards. //
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In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit...
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 6:37pm
Post #50 of 601
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He didn't really describe Fili and Kili, did he?
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Except to say that they were "younger."
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Eldaria
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 6:37pm
Post #51 of 601
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Nori's reveal was bad enough, but seeing what they've come up with for Kili is heart-breaking. This is too far removed from what it should be. Look at side by side pictures of Kili next to Gimli ..... there is no connection whatsoever. They should at least look like they've come from the same universe. When things spin off into absurd story lines or unlikely characterizations, such as this, it's called jumping the shark.
Words really fail me, but 'sold out' come to mind. I can only hope that this is some twisted joke being played on us.
“There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep ... that have taken hold.”
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Rodu
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 6:38pm
Post #52 of 601
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Doesn't one of Kili or Fili lose their beard
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because it's full of spider web? Maybe that's post spider Kili
I wonder if the other dwarves will make fun of the pretty dwarf
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Muireadhaigh
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 6:42pm
Post #53 of 601
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Agreed, if the women dwarves have beards, the young men surely should too//
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 6:44pm
Post #54 of 601
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they have some stubble as if they used their nice sharp swords to shave
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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veldrin
Registered User
Jul 12 2011, 6:44pm
Post #55 of 601
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I agree that Kili looks like he will be the Leeroy Jenkins of the Dwarves.
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 6:47pm
Post #56 of 601
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Can sombody please photoshop them so they can join the other five dwarves? it would help me put their look into perspective considerablyand help me get used to them...
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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Nesse
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 6:48pm
Post #57 of 601
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I thought if the female audience were gonna get some eye candy it would be from Bard, Thandruil, Lego etc I never thought hobbits or dwarves are the type of race you would drool over...was I wrong. Top marks to PJ and co for making something I thought wasnt possible....sexy dwarves.
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 6:49pm
Post #58 of 601
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I just clicked the thread to post the same thing!!! We need Paul to so some more dwarven magic!
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 6:49pm
Post #59 of 601
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But seriously...stick a blond beard on Bill S. Preston, Esquire, and there's Fili!
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Estel78
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 6:50pm
Post #60 of 601
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I liked every dwarf they revealed, untill now... :( //
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Gimli1252
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 6:50pm
Post #61 of 601
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aidan turner had a ''long'' beard before production, and they decide to shave him ...???why... because he didn't look dwarvish enough...???
''There is one dwarf yet in Moria, who still draws breath''
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Gandalf'sMother
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 6:53pm
Post #62 of 601
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If they are portrayed as somewhat superficial and vain, it is likely that they shaved, not that they can't grow their beards any longer.
The strange thing is that Turner's natural beard in the production videos was much thicker than this!
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 6:55pm
Post #63 of 601
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yeah i agree, they are really going to have to make Balin and Thorin( especially Thorin) look fantastic becuase as you say they are both the most influencial of all the dwarves and probabaly the most well known...
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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KateTheHobbit
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 6:55pm
Post #64 of 601
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I have been extremely happy with all of the Dwarves thus far. And like a lot of people on here, these are the first two that I am hesitant about. I agree about the almost-Elvish look. Which is quite unsettling, for a Dwarf. But again as most have already said, I do understand that these two are the youngest, and probably the "Wild Child" (or "Children", lol) of the group.
I do admire that they are making each of the Dwarves look decidedly different from each other. In my opinion, each of the Dwarves thus far has their own distinct "look", while still being fundamentally Dwarvish. Personally, while these two definitely look different, I feel like they lack the basic, necessary Dwarvish-ness. So yeah, all told, I'm not a huge fan of this. BUT, I trust PJ and the whole crew on this. If there personalities are at least handled appropriately, I'm sure everything will be fine.
SPOILERS BELOW!!!
On a side note, I do think that -- if handled well -- their deaths are going to be absolutely heartbreaking. If they are portrayed as the young, enthusiastic, new-to-the-world-of-adventure young'uns (which seems to be the case, going by the picture description), it will be crushing to see them die at the very end of this big adventure of theirs. I really hope this is done well. It can have a HUGE emotional impact if it's done right. And it bears repeating, I trust PJ to handle it well.
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 6:56pm
Post #65 of 601
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I can even get behind Nori's hairstyle. I'm even working with the "men in black" colors--no one in color except the dark burgundy. But this heart throb dwarf look really goes very contrary to how I've always imagined The Hobbit to be. I expect Richard Armitage's look will be similar. Too bad, because though I'd had initial doubts I was trying to let him convince me otherwise.
Permanent address: Into the West
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 6:59pm
Post #67 of 601
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I'm hoping the filmmakers overlook that little detail, if they decide to show any of the dwarves' family life. The idea of giving birth to a bearded baby gives me the jibbly wibblies.
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 7:03pm
Post #68 of 601
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Yeah,Im not fully convinced either...
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Yeah,Im not fully convinced either,their look is clearly not going down too well with the majority of the TORN users,but i'm now actually give Weta the benfit of the doubt and hopefully it will work in the movies.... I'm really looking foward to what their going to do with Bombur though!
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 7:04pm
Post #69 of 601
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I've had a completely different reaction to each of the three photos.
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The first one, frankly, left me cold. Especially Nori's yellow brick road, we welcome you to Munchkinland, hair.
The second one, of Oin and Gloin, was thrilling. I loved everything about it.
This one isn't *quite* what I expected from dwarves, but as I've said elsewhere, as long as the character and the role is written right, I really don't care what they look like.
(And I freely admit, my X chromosomes are enjoying themselves very much right now. ROWR! )
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Rachamatazz
The Shire
Jul 12 2011, 7:04pm
Post #70 of 601
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...although Kili is possibly the thinnest dwarf in existence. I like how they don't all have axes; those swords look just as lethal...
Not all those who wander are lost.
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Runk Snusgrop
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 7:05pm
Post #71 of 601
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If anything gives me the jibbly wibblies it's the thought of a naked bearded dwarf woman (looking almost exactly like a male dwarf and probably sounding like one as well) on her back squeezing out a baby.
I can never erase that from my poor mind.
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Nesse
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 7:06pm
Post #72 of 601
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what takes places 60 years in the future to make dwarves go from the pics weve just seen to the way Gimli looked in LotR.
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Pipe Dream
Gondor
Jul 12 2011, 7:07pm
Post #73 of 601
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Don't the arrows look REALLY oversized?
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Like they wouldn't even work because they are far too large and heavy?
"There is a long road yet," said Gandalf. "But it is the last road," said Bilbo.
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 7:08pm
Post #74 of 601
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I've put up a new poll where you can vote on how much you like( or do not like) the PJ versions of Kili and Fili.
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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TheWhiteRider
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 7:09pm
Post #75 of 601
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Are dwarves even tall enough to use and aim a bow and arrow ???
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Bound
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 7:11pm
Post #77 of 601
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Kili just looks silly. I mean I guess dwarfs have to grow their beards but he looks plain silly, and his head looks wrong for the body !!
Fili is fine...
The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 7:12pm
Post #78 of 601
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Someone transported tribbles into the storage bay.
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Serious answer, though, is that there isn't any particular reason, is there, why all dwarves have to look the same. Oin and Gloin do have a similar look to Gimli.
And perhaps, since this movie will have so many more dwarves, they decided to go minimalist with the prosthetics and the other time-consuming makeups.
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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dave_lf
Gondor
Jul 12 2011, 7:17pm
Post #79 of 601
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Are dwarves even tall enough to use and aim a bow and arrow ???
Maybe not a 7-foot English warbow, but Tolkien specifically mentions the dwarves using bows in Mirkwood (Beorn provides the arrows).
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 7:18pm
Post #80 of 601
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This is how I feel. The dwarves shouldn't look the same, but...
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should look as if they were born of the same race. Kili looks elvish, to me too.
This is a still photo. I'm trying very hard to keep an open mind that I'll forget all of this when the movie is on the screen. But for now, this is the first dwarf with whom I'm disappointed in his look.
Permanent address: Into the West
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 7:20pm
Post #81 of 601
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Thank you for sharing that lovely thought with us, we are are all now deeply disturbed now you have planted that image it in our brains aswell... Ewwwwwww, LOL!
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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Runk Snusgrop
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 7:22pm
Post #82 of 601
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Want another one?
Try picturing two dwarfs making the baby in the first place. 
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droidsocket
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 7:22pm
Post #83 of 601
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Thorin will look more like these then the rest
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And my theory behind it is PJ and company want us viewers to connect with these three dwarves the most because of how their stories end. I think they feel the emotional connection to their end would be hindered if the look too "dwarfish". Unfortunately I think that's dumbing it down. And not giving enough credit to Joe blo viewer. I guess heart throbs win over in the eye of the film makers
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RoseCotton
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 7:24pm
Post #84 of 601
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I'm betting the important question is...
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Can one of them be Kili? 
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 7:25pm
Post #85 of 601
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Otherwise, I need the brain bleach and a toothbrush...
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
(This post was edited by RosieLass on Jul 12 2011, 7:25pm)
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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven
Jul 12 2011, 7:25pm
Post #86 of 601
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*grumble grumble* still no color *grumble*
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On the plus side, we do have some blond hair now.
I wonder if the filmmakers were worried that the audience wouldn't be able to identify with anyone under all the prosthetics and beards. Generally, audience members need to be able to enter the film through at least one of the characters, which is why so many films about other cultures/sci-fi films involve a Western main character. The audience has to identify with someone in order to understand and enjoy the movie.
In the book, that character was Bilbo and his fish out of water experience. In LOTR we had two human main characters, plus plenty of human side characters, to identify with. I wonder if the filmmakers decided to lighten the prosthetics and beards to let the audience in a little more this time around. One character who can't emote under his make-up in a cast of nine is okay. 13 in a cast of 14 is probably a little more problematic.
Just a thought, and I hope this post made sense.
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TORn's Costume Discussions Archive
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 7:25pm
Post #88 of 601
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and in 3D !
Permanent address: Into the West
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R11
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 7:25pm
Post #89 of 601
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It looks like they even got out the fan to get Kili's luxurious locks flying in the breeze behind him. And all these years for some reason I was under the impression that he belonged to the race of dwarves . I'm not sure who deserves the blame for this but it's really a shame IMO. Major downer...
ron
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 7:26pm
Post #90 of 601
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EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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Runk Snusgrop
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 7:26pm
Post #92 of 601
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Ooooooooh I see what you did there.
That's much better.
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Brandybuckled
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 7:28pm
Post #93 of 601
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And my theory behind it is PJ and company want us viewers to connect with these three dwarves the most because of how their stories end. I think they feel the emotional connection to their end would be hindered if the look too "dwarfish". Unfortunately I think that's dumbing it down. And not giving enough credit to Joe blo viewer. I guess heart throbs win over in the eye of the film makers
Of all the things PJ is famous for, "going subtle" isn't one of the ones that leaps to mind.
NAArP since 2011*
*Not An Ardent Purist
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 7:28pm
Post #94 of 601
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hahahahahaha,in 3D,LMAO x1000000000000000000000000000!
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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redgiraffe
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 7:29pm
Post #95 of 601
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Don't know what to make of them
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I think these two are gonna take the most getting used to for me. I don't understand though why Aidan turner had a decent beard before filming and in the production video and then they cut it off. I don't know how I feel about it. Someone get on the hi-res and photoshop so we can see them better in context.
Even with that said it's not the end of the world and I don't think it will destroy the movie.
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 7:31pm
Post #97 of 601
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They would probably have had him shave the beard in any case.
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Since it's easier to apply a complete new costume beard than work with a real one.
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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rings7
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 7:33pm
Post #98 of 601
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I actually thought they would look like twins
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Fili and Kili that is. But I guess they're fraternal.
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Evernight
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 7:33pm
Post #99 of 601
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Thanks! Fili not so much, but Kili sticks out like a sore thumb.//
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In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit...
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eralkfang
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 7:35pm
Post #100 of 601
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First off, I don't think we can start calling shenanigans on characterizations—I've seen plenty a film adaptation where a character looked wrong but acted so, so right.
They both look fine, but Fíli looks much more like a young dwarf than Kíli does. It's the straight, completely unadorned hair combined with a five o'clock shadow. I understand wanting the younger dwarves to have shorter beards to keep them, well, youthful-looking, but dwarves are vain and look after their beards as much as their hair—Kíli just looks unshaven, which implies that he does shave or just started growing a proper beard. Perhaps if Kíli had the goatee and Fíli a slightly fuller beard, it would work better while still keeping them looking young.
I'm also a bit thrown by the lack of prosthetics here, especially compared to the other dwarves we've seen. They have less prosthetics, but they retain some dwarven features we saw in The Lord of the Rings—bulbous noses and pronounced brows. O'Gorman looks fine; his facial features look like a dwarf before all the hard living they love. But Turner, as people have said, has more of an Elvish look to him—thinner nose, narrow jaw. His body type is also more Elvish—lithe and tall. I wouldn't expect a young dwarf to be as thick as an old dwarf, but O'Gorman has at least that sturdy, rectangular look to him. Turner just looks too thin for a dwarf, especially with the proportions of the feet and the head.
Look, I understand wanting to have a Orlando Bloom-esque hottie in the group and giving that role to the younger guy—fair enough! But Fíli manages to be both attractive and dwarven at the same time. (The two are not mutually exclusive, heh.) Kíli just doesn't look dwarven.
I hope Turner does amazing things with the role, but I don't care for Kíli's design. This makes me wonder what Thorin is going to look like, what with the family resemblances and all.
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 7:37pm
Post #101 of 601
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ohhhh, sorry mate but that was not the best picture...
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ohhhh, sorry mate but that was not the best picture, It really looks like Fili and kili have just been stuck on the end and they are slighty to far foward and inproportiante to the others,nice try though...
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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Bound
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 7:37pm
Post #102 of 601
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Others will do a better job
The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 7:38pm
Post #103 of 601
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See, I hate to be a complainer, but it seems like all of Middle-earth is getting the "dark" treatment.
I guess it's these old eyes, but there seems to be no color other than gray, with the little of burgundy (not red) thrown in.
Permanent address: Into the West
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 7:39pm
Post #104 of 601
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ahh well, doesnt matter, it was still pretty good
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 7:39pm
Post #105 of 601
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One like this one would be great!
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Unfortunately it does not include Kili and Fili: http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Dwarves.jpg
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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TheWhiteRider
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 7:39pm
Post #106 of 601
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Compared to Kili, Nori looks like a masterpiece !!
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Estel78
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 7:40pm
Post #107 of 601
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That not all of them look like Gimli is not what most of us are complaining about, though.
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Nori or Ori doesn't look like Gimli, at all. Do you hear me complaining? Nope. But with Kili especially, they went too far, they should have at least given him a nose prosthetic, like Fili.
Boy i hope they hit it out of the park with the rest of the dwarves... 
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 7:41pm
Post #108 of 601
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In the dwarves clothes there is no color other than shades of grey and the rare burgandy.
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 7:42pm
Post #109 of 601
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Have another shot, just put them behind Dori and and little further back and it should then work,the key to doing photo's like this is so that the overalp to give the effect that its one picture, Good luck..
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 7:44pm
Post #110 of 601
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I wouldn't know where to begin!
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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Estel78
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 7:44pm
Post #111 of 601
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I'm also a bit thrown by the lack of prosthetics here, especially compared to the other dwarves we've seen. They have less prosthetics, but they retain some dwarven features we saw in The Lord of the Rings—bulbous noses and pronounced brows. O'Gorman looks fine; his facial features look like a dwarf before all the hard living they love. But Turner, as people have said, has more of an Elvish look to him—thinner nose, narrow jaw. His body type is also more Elvish—lithe and tall. I wouldn't expect a young dwarf to be as thick as an old dwarf, but O'Gorman has at least that sturdy, rectangular look to him. Turner just looks too thin for a dwarf, especially with the proportions of the feet and the head.
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chrismortega
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 7:45pm
Post #113 of 601
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Yep. They obviously needed a 'Legolas' character to pack the little girls in. And I'm not saying that's bad. Frankly I surprised to hear so much grumbling about a 'hot' dwarf at this point. I would have thought most people knew this would be coming down the chain eventually. I pretty much resigned myself to it, and I've been waiting to see what it'd be like. Not too bad really if you ask me. Tastefully done.
"It was deliberate, it was deliberate..."
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carrioncrow
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 7:46pm
Post #114 of 601
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I was hoping that the dwarves in this film would be freed somewhat from the prosthetics that restricted JRD's performance and took such a toll on his health. But once the decision was made (as it apparently has been) to cleave to the visual palette established by Jackson's LOTR I feared it would add needless burden on the actors.
Here we see an honest attempt to have it both ways. It appears these young dwarves (and other young one revealed last week) will be the least encumbered and with the most expressive faces and the oldest will be, shall we say, calcified. I think it is an interesting take and a quite surprised (and happy) to see it.
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 7:47pm
Post #115 of 601
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That thought HAD crossed my mind.
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Actually, I wouldn't whine about LotR's new coloring so much if they hadn't DARKENED it so.
Permanent address: Into the West
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Zherkezhi
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 7:47pm
Post #116 of 601
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... I agree with you! It definitely does make sense and I've come to a similar conclusion. However, I think they could look a bit more rough or at least not that dressed up to the nines, you know?
Then again, I think of the latest cover of Empire magazine: There you catch a glimpse of Gandalf which, I think, is rather unusual and differs from what we've seen of Gandalf before and after that (in images of The Hobbit's shooting). I believe that these promo shots probably convey pictures of these characters which are not that accurate or informative for that matter. You have to take into consideration that these promo shots are set up quite artificially (I know, the finished movie is also something that is artificial) and none of the actors will pose for the camera like that. These dwarves will be dirty and rough-looking and exhausted from their long trip. Let's not make a fuss about these pictures. I am sure, everything will look just fine, in the end...
(This post was edited by Zherkezhi on Jul 12 2011, 7:48pm)
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 7:48pm
Post #117 of 601
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yeah i agree, they seem to be lacking the prostectics of the trade mark dwarf look ( the nose and ears), They just look like armoured up Man-childs and I think that if they at least added the prostetics, fattened they out abit and gave they proper beards, they would actually look really good. And sorry Dean, Rob kazinksy would have looked Ten Times cooler than you do...
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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sharpened_graphite
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 7:51pm
Post #118 of 601
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And not in a good way. While I can buy Fili, who actually looks like quite a convincing take on what a young dwarf would look like, Kili looks as if he stepped out of a shampoo commercial. And the sad thing is that Aidan Turner did look pretty dwarvish with a longer beard in those very first pre-production photos. Here he looks decidedly human if not elvish (beard notwithstanding). I think I could buy him as a dwarf had they given him a long drooping moustache that completely covers the mouth as well as a long flowing beard, both matching his hair, a larger nose and a somewhat more weathered complexion (at the moment he doesn't seem to just use expensive shampoo but also the best skin lotions Dove has to offer). Even if they're that determined (and probably also pressured by the stuodios) to have a handsome dwarf in there, there's a much larger leeway to "good looks" than "perfectly groomed fashion model". So Peter, if you're by any chance reading this, please make Kili more dwarf like, at the moment he isn't even convincing as a Middle Earth character, much less a dwarf.
(This post was edited by sharpened_graphite on Jul 12 2011, 7:59pm)
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 7:52pm
Post #119 of 601
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I am sure, everything will look just fine, in the end...
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I hope so, I really hope so...
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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DamienEngland
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 7:53pm
Post #120 of 601
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SOMEBODY PLEASE FIND AN EMBIGGENABLE HI-RES VERSION!
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If one is out there, that is. It was on both the other occasions
I can't believe I'm the only person here who wants to see one before making up his mind!
a) You don't know if there's no prosthetic work on his nose at that size image and b) all the other dwarf images benefitted hugely from embiggenable looks under the microscope for me hugely, as opposed to my first impressions from the smaller images which were always kinda meh.
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redgiraffe
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 7:55pm
Post #121 of 601
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I'm not reall complaining about the prosthetics...
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.or even Kili's hair. or even fili at all. I don't really care that they are rather thinner. I just wish they could have put a beard on Kili. It didn't have to be a huge one, but at least one like he had in the pre production photos and the blog video. But I guess we will just have to wait and see.
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle
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Altaira
Superuser
Jul 12 2011, 7:55pm
Post #122 of 601
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Perhaps *you're* not complaining about the other dwarves, but I've heard plenty of "they should look more like Gimli from some folks. In fact...
they should have at least given him a nose prosthetic,
still sounds to me like many people have developed a paradigm, or formula, of what dwarves should look like pretty much solely based on one character: Gimli, and woe be to PJ & Co. if they stray too far from that paradigm. Of course, that's okay. I'm just not one of you. I like the differences and, while I acknowledge Kili is more 'outside the box' than some of the others, it doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I'm glad.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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Rosebud
The Shire
Jul 12 2011, 7:55pm
Post #123 of 601
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Both with yellow beards, blue cloaks and silver belts. I think there is also some mentioning of long noses.
On top of all this there is of course the more generic descriptions of dwarves as short and stocky with long beards (including women). I think it's reasonably clear what Tolkien had in mind and its not this.
Some creative license is ok but this is a bridge too far for me personally. I'm happy for you that you can enjoy it though!
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 7:55pm
Post #124 of 601
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You're not. I want one too. But I'm sure we'll get one...
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be patient.
Oh, and I want the one being worked on that adds these latest two to the others. I wonder how soon it will be that they won't all fit onto a good high res pic? The Nine worked it, but we are talking 13 here, so I don't know...
Permanent address: Into the West
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 7:56pm
Post #125 of 601
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The costumes and weapons are cool as always, and Fili actually doesn't look bad at all – the beard and the braids in his hair look nice and Dwarvish, and I appreciate the way they've retained the hair colour that was specified by Tolkien. Give him a bit of a longer beard and he's perfect. But Kili... where do I even begin? He doesn't look like a Dwarf at all! They've also severed his visual connection with his brother by giving him dark hair. Look at that brooding stare and dramatic mane, completely free from prosthetics and facial hair... This is a sad day – the 'Hunky Dwarf' hypothesis has been verified.
I fear for Thorin, I really do.
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 7:58pm
Post #126 of 601
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Altaira, I can hear you shouting...
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"hubba -hubba" all the way from Colorado here to Indy.
Permanent address: Into the West
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DeadRabbits
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 7:59pm
Post #127 of 601
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Well, what did y'all think? This can't come as a surprise...
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PJ hired two young, good looking actors for the roles and spoke about "heartthrob dwarves" in an interview... I was expecting two hunky dwarves, and would actually have been disappointed to see something else... I think PJ and his crew did a great job on these ones (and the other dwarves as well)! It's great to see some variety.
Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 8:05pm
Post #128 of 601
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It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Pipe Dream
Gondor
Jul 12 2011, 8:13pm
Post #129 of 601
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"There is a long road yet," said Gandalf. "But it is the last road," said Bilbo.
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 8:14pm
Post #130 of 601
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that the 'longest noses of them all' thing from the book did not transfer to the movie.
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 8:14pm
Post #131 of 601
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This might be an early costume test... So his beard could be thicker in the film....
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Someone else suggested this is the "post-spider Kili" (in the book he gets so much spider-web in his beard he needs to shave it off). but he's supposed to have yellow hair :(
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Bound
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 8:18pm
Post #134 of 601
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Why wouldn't it be... (yes it is)
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It's exactly the same release as the other offical photos..
and yes, i've just checked Pete's facebook page and he's got it posted there
The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed
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Eldaria
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 8:21pm
Post #136 of 601
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Aidan Turner looked more dwarven, and more believable, at the press conference, el natural, than totally-missed-the-mark Kili does.
“There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep ... that have taken hold.”
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 8:22pm
Post #137 of 601
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No, don't worry. It's just a nightmare! //
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please wake up. please wake up.
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 8:22pm
Post #138 of 601
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Nah shoundn't worry about the other dwarves!
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Ok people, here's the deal, there have been some Hurrays and heart breaks over this pic of Fili and Kili and though I am not fully convinced either, that dosent mean that the Dwarves are going to go down hill from here onward.
Fili and kili's look was completely based on the fact that they are the youngest of the dwarves and probably somewhat naive and rebellious( a possible reason for the lack of huge beards). All the other dwarves are battle harderned veterans ( well, perhaps with the exception of Ori who seems to be weilding a book in the pic) and will probably look more like the dwarves we know and love.
Furthermore, I recently bought a copy of the Hobbit Special Empire magazine and on the main page picture ( also the frist picture we got on TORN) it shows Bilbo reading the contract with dwarves looking on in the background and from that picture I can not recognise any of the dwarves that have appeared on the site and from what i can tell, they got big beards , they are wearing fat suits, awsome armour and have the original prostetics.
So to sum up ,we don't need to worry, Fili and Kili are an unique case and stand very much alone and I'am pretty sure that the rest of the dwarves are going to be more like the ones we are familiar with and that we re all going to love them.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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Altaira
Superuser
Jul 12 2011, 8:22pm
Post #139 of 601
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*points down the thread to Bound's post* No need to yell. Someone already has //
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Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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Estel78
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 8:23pm
Post #140 of 601
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Fili & Kili just look out of place... //
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 8:24pm
Post #141 of 601
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They have gotten their eye-candy out of the way with Kili, and Thorin will look appropriately avuncular.
I'm still not convinced that they cast Armitage for his "heart-throb" qualities anyway.
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Hanzkaz
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 8:24pm
Post #142 of 601
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I guess Kili is a fan of the Elves.
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It could be argued Fili and Kili are really young Dwarves - perhaps the Dwarven equivalent of teenagers. They probably tend to grow more
'Dwarvish' as they grow older, some more quickly than others.
We know more about Elves than we know of Dwarves but I'm pretty sure that the women and children of Tolkien's Dwarves did not have beards.
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 8:26pm
Post #144 of 601
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My first thought: message boards are gonna love this... I wasn't wrong. //
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Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 8:26pm
Post #145 of 601
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I really doubt that. These are meant to be introductory images; why would they show us the Dwarves in degenerated, dishevelled states which they reach at a late chronological point in the first film? Surely we're supposed to be able to look at these images and immediately recognise the chacters they depict when we watch the film?
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Estel78
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 8:27pm
Post #146 of 601
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Ori actually looks younger than Fili and Kili... //
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 8:28pm
Post #147 of 601
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The women and children of Tolkien's Dwarves actually did have beards. //
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 8:29pm
Post #148 of 601
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These so called " heart throb" or "hunky" dwarves
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yes, but these so called " heart throb" or "hunky" dwarves could have at leastly look more like Dwarves, not these armoured up man-child things that look like they are workin for the middle earth fashion industry...
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 8:29pm
Post #149 of 601
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Fili is the only one smiling!!
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out of all the dwarfs!
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
(This post was edited by Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth on Jul 12 2011, 8:30pm)
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 8:31pm
Post #150 of 601
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But then, as I've said before, I have no problem with the hairstyle.
That his hair would be "star-shaped" seems in keeping with primative races focused on the natural universe. It seems pretty regal to me, and not "human".
But "Elf-dwarf" Kili is another matter.
Permanent address: Into the West
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Proudfoot
The Shire
Jul 12 2011, 8:33pm
Post #151 of 601
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Not high res, nor high-tech, and as I can't get the other to load, this may be just the same. But this how I killed a bit of time this afternoon.
(as fast-moving as this thread has been, no doubt something better has popped up while I was posting, but a spare dwarf portrait never hurt anyone!)
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/Chickadee33/Dwarves-group.jpg
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 8:33pm
Post #152 of 601
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a little Estrogen Island where we least expected it?
Permanent address: Into the West
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 8:34pm
Post #153 of 601
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Ori actually looks younger than Fili and Kili...
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Well at least Ori actually looks like a dwarf
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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duats
Grey Havens
Jul 12 2011, 8:34pm
Post #154 of 601
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I cannot believe how far they've missed the mark here with Kili. He looks like the love-child of Aragorn and Legolas, and I mean that quite literally. I'm honestly convinced that Kili couldn't get further from being a dwarf if PJ and Weta tried.
Horrible. Just absolutely horrible. I really cannot think of anything else to say.
But just so my post isn't solely negative, Fili does look good.
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Pipe Dream
Gondor
Jul 12 2011, 8:35pm
Post #156 of 601
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I guess I just need time to try to accept it. I have that feeling again that I had during Indy 4. Sort of a mixed disbelief. It was hard to know how to feel, being that it was an oxymoron, it is impossible for Indiana Jones to suck, and yet it did. I thought the results would cause a chain reaction that would unravel the very fabric of the space time continuum, and destroy the entire universe in the process, but nothing happened. I was just left in shock and scared for life. They need to be different, I get that, but why no beard? Maybe the other dwarves shaved him in his sleep?
"There is a long road yet," said Gandalf. "But it is the last road," said Bilbo.
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sharpened_graphite
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 8:36pm
Post #157 of 601
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Aidan Turner looked more dwarven, and more believable, at the press conference, el natural, than totally-missed-the-mark Kili does.
I still have a glimmer of hope that he looks like that only in the poster with all the airbrush and fan blown hair and would be much more rugged and hirsute (in one word: dwarf-like) in the actual movie. It's a faint one, but there it is. Othewise he sticks out like an overgroomed urban dandy in the middle of a rough and dirty biker gang.
(This post was edited by sharpened_graphite on Jul 12 2011, 8:43pm)
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 8:38pm
Post #158 of 601
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What the....love-child of Aragorn and Legolas!
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ROFL, the love-child of Aragorn and Legolas!hahahahahahahahahahahaha,LMFAO XD
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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Hengist
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 12 2011, 8:39pm
Post #159 of 601
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So at least we now know who Tauriel is
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Kili's mother.
Kili looks like a small elf or human - just doesnt look right.
Fili doesnt look too bad.
" So let me get this straight. You want to fly on a magic carpet to see the King of the Potato People and plead with him for your freedom, and you're telling me you're completely sane? "
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rings7
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 8:39pm
Post #160 of 601
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namarie
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 8:42pm
Post #161 of 601
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There is always hope
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 8:42pm
Post #162 of 601
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I guess he doesn't know the seriousness of the quest yet...
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He's going to be happy and enthusiastic throughout the journey, until...
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Crunchable Birdses
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 8:45pm
Post #163 of 601
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I wouldn't mind giving Kili a feel-i
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Can't wait for Thorin Hunkenshield.
* crunch *
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namarie
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 8:45pm
Post #164 of 601
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There is always hope
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rings7
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 8:48pm
Post #166 of 601
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...they start fighting for good old Uncle Thorin.
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 8:49pm
Post #167 of 601
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Kili or Fili?
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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Welsh hero
Gondor
Jul 12 2011, 8:50pm
Post #168 of 601
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on their way to the shire the stopped at Bree. The dwarves decided to have a big drinking session. The last one before the trip. Kili got so drunk he passed out. The other dwarves thought it would be funny to shave him. Thus Kili woke up with out a beard. the dwarves find this funny, kili vowes never to drink again.....
Twitter: @IrfonPennant
(This post was edited by Welsh hero on Jul 12 2011, 8:51pm)
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 8:50pm
Post #169 of 601
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Best post on this thread
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R11
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 8:51pm
Post #171 of 601
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They actually went out of their way to pretty him up! I'm holding out hope that his on-screen look in the films is a bit rougher and this promo shot is some kind of inside joke, because otherwise it's pretty much a slap in the face to Tolkien and all the fans who haven't been overwhelmed by their hormones. Speaking of which, I'm very surprised at how such a large number of fans could basically abandon their Tolkien ideals just for the sake of some cheap eye candy.
ron
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namarie
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 8:52pm
Post #172 of 601
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I think it's easy to guess who is going to be the heart throb in this movie :)
There is always hope
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TheWhiteRider
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 8:52pm
Post #173 of 601
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lovechild of Aragorn and legolas....HAHAHA too good !!
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 8:53pm
Post #174 of 601
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he must be VERY tired from spinning so much in his grave.
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 8:53pm
Post #175 of 601
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They're twins, their age differance might only be a matter of minutes!
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 8:54pm
Post #176 of 601
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Fili is 5 years older.
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
(This post was edited by RosieLass on Jul 12 2011, 8:55pm)
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 8:56pm
Post #177 of 601
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ROFL, that would be brilliant but remenber dwarves are very sensitive about their beards and they would probbaly never disrespect or disgrace another dwarf in that way, nice idea though. XD
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 8:56pm
Post #179 of 601
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All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 8:57pm
Post #180 of 601
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All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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aifeme
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 8:58pm
Post #181 of 601
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So...when dwarves are young they look like humans, and they get 'dwarvier' when they grow old? I just don't get it and don't like it. But I'm sure that PJ knows what he's doing.
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Hanzkaz
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 8:59pm
Post #182 of 601
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Question - What do young Dwarves look like?
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Fili and Kili will probably blend in with the other eleven Dwarves after a while.
I've looked at the pics of the other Dwarves again, and I get the impression of seeing several generations of the same family.
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sharpened_graphite
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 8:59pm
Post #184 of 601
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Even Jack Sparrow from "Pirates of the Caribbean" would make for a better dwarf...
And that's saying something.
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ltnjmy
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 9:00pm
Post #185 of 601
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I think that they look great !
Let's give PJ a chance  and remember that they are the youngest of the dwarves. . .
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namarie
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 9:01pm
Post #186 of 601
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because Aidan Turner looks like a teenager.
There is always hope
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Bullroarer
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 9:01pm
Post #187 of 601
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I know, I have so got the hots for smaug, that sexy thing, ROFL
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All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us- Gandalf to Frodo
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 9:01pm
Post #188 of 601
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Now that mental image will haunt me to my grave.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 9:03pm
Post #189 of 601
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I went for quite some time thinking they were twins, too. I wonder where we all got
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that idea? I think I only knew they weren't due to a post here a few years ago. But it's been so long since I've read it, and mostly now just listen to the BBC audio, which doesn't mention their ages either way.
We probably just assumed it because their names are so similiar. But then, so are Ori, Nori, etc.
Permanent address: Into the West
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Turambar
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 9:03pm
Post #190 of 601
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what the teenagers in your part of the world look like, but he definitely doesn't look like a teenager to me.
This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king, ruins town,
And beats high mountain down.
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 9:03pm
Post #191 of 601
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I fear the opposite is true...
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That Oin and Gloin got the Tolkien fans out the way, so that they can mess around with the rest as much as they want. Something for everyone kinda thing. Unfortunately they've stepped a little too far this time. If Bombur is not a model dwarf I will be very displeased, he's my favourite character!
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namarie
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 9:03pm
Post #192 of 601
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There is always hope
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 9:05pm
Post #193 of 601
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pun intended?
Permanent address: Into the West
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mykonos
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 9:05pm
Post #194 of 601
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I don't know about that, I thought JD was the hottest thing in the world in that movie at the time I was only 15
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 9:07pm
Post #195 of 601
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I just don't see how they can mess Bombur up...
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He's already got the padding, thank goodness! He was a great casting choice.
I like him, too, but my favorite is Balin. I really hope he looks as I have imagined him.
Permanent address: Into the West
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aifeme
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 9:08pm
Post #196 of 601
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And I'm just waiting to see which dwarf is the bald one...
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namarie
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 9:09pm
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..but if I look at the small picture I could easily give him 18-19
maybe 20 with indulgence
Aiden Turner is 28 (according with imdb anyway) but he looks much younger in the picture.
There is always hope
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mykonos
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 9:09pm
Post #198 of 601
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I think it might be James Nesbitt //
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Garfeimao
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 9:10pm
Post #199 of 601
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this is one moment, frozen in time
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The thing about all these pictures is they are taken out of context, away from any set that might inform the look.
My feeling with all of the images is that this is what the dwarves look like the day they show up at Bagend, and then they all go traveling, and all hell breaks loose and things change.
I'm quite sure we will see Nori's starfish hair get limp and change shape, especially after the encounter with the spiders. And I'm willing to bet Kili dies with a full beard.
Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,
Garfeimao
The orange stripey One
Cruise to Middle-earth
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rings7
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 9:11pm
Post #200 of 601
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I do wonder now why in the world they cut Aidan's hair if they were still gonna leave a long hair look ala Mitchel. Just straight.
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 9:12pm
Post #201 of 601
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Thank you for a voice of reason!
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Honestly, I was prepairing myself for the worst, and this isn't anywhere near that.
But perhaps I'm biased, as my own mental image of Dwarves has always been pretty human-like and not neanderthalian-like, as I've said before.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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droidsocket
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 9:13pm
Post #202 of 601
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PJ is not subtle! And rather then making Killi and Filli subtlety more human he went to the extreme of making them 99% human looking with 1% big ears
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Proudfoot
The Shire
Jul 12 2011, 9:13pm
Post #203 of 601
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And here's a second version, from a newbie....
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One more for good measure
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/Chickadee33/Dwarves-group.jpg
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 9:14pm
Post #204 of 601
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I know what you mean **shudders**
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All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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Theodred
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 9:16pm
Post #205 of 601
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I really don't think that's going to happen,
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So Peter, if you're by any chance reading this, please make Kili more dwarf like, at the moment he isn't even convincing as a Middle Earth character, much less a dwarf.
Because they have probably already shot many scenes with the dwarves, and they wíll probably not, because of this, make Kili more dwarf-like, and then reshoot all the scenes with Kili again.
http://dehobbithyve.hyves.nl/
http://www.widgetbox.com/widget/the-hobbit-news-widget-ronald_40
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 9:18pm
Post #206 of 601
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It's a very common misconception
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I think it's because they're described identically; the only real visual information we have about either of them is that they have long yellow beards. Add to that their status as 'the young ones' of the group (which implies close age) and their similar but equal names (you wouldn't expect twins to be called Dori and Ori, as that seems to emphasise the former, but Fili and Kili sounds quite twinnish), and it's not hard to see how the 'twins' idea crept into our minds.
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Proudfoot
The Shire
Jul 12 2011, 9:18pm
Post #207 of 601
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A freshly shaved (by dwarf standards) face, post-spiders, would make perfect sense. I've no idea why we'd see that version in these photos, but if they were using natural beards, and this shoot happened to be scheduled after those real beards had actually been shaved... I think the theory works well.
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 9:19pm
Post #208 of 601
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With the recasting of Fili, those scenes may have to be reshot anyway... //
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 9:21pm
Post #210 of 601
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Thank you. Someone who knows these two are not twins.
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Just kinda bugs me every time someone mentions that PJ isn't making them identical.
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Altaira
Superuser
Jul 12 2011, 9:23pm
Post #212 of 601
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I'm very surprised at how such a large number of fans could basically abandon their Tolkien ideals just for the sake of some cheap eye candy.
It's unfair to paint all the fans who aren't bothered by Kili's looks with such a broad brush I personally couldn't care less if they're hunky or not. It just doesn't bother me that he doesn't look like a cookie-cutter dwarf. *shrugs*
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 9:23pm
Post #213 of 601
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On the other hand, he's got Sword of Shannara down PAT ! /
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Permanent address: Into the West
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sharpened_graphite
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 9:24pm
Post #214 of 601
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That was just a rhetorical appeal more than anything else...
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...I don't think Peter Jackson will change his mind just because of one post on a forum.
But it's also 100 % my honest opinion.
And besides, who knows, fan pressure did keep XenArwen out of the Lord of the Rings.
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Muireadhaigh
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 9:25pm
Post #215 of 601
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When the Oin and Gloin pics came out, I posted that I now understand everyone's concern, because they were hunks. I was joking obviously, and never thought PJ would give us this. I am so very disappointed with these two dwarves.
I wonder what conditioner Kili uses, his hair is perfect. 
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TheWhiteRider
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 9:28pm
Post #216 of 601
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also had the longest nose in the whole group !
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 9:29pm
Post #217 of 601
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Are you disappointed with Fili, too?
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I wouldn't call him a hunk. But I'm with you on Kili.
Permanent address: Into the West
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 9:30pm
Post #218 of 601
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............................................................................................................................
...........................................................................................................................
...........................................................I beg your pardon?
Jeepers. I don't quite know what to say.....................Come back Armitage all is forgiven?
I'd like to say I told you so, but that'd be referring to the wrong dwarf- i had high hopes for Fili and Kili, Rob Kazinsky and Aidan Turner seemed like a cracking couple of blokes and a good match for the carefree energy of the younger dwarves (and Dean O'Gorman was a pretty cool replacement even if the replacement was regrettable). Like others have said, Aidan Turner looked positively dwarvish at the press conference- what in the name of all that's holy happened? I'm sorry, but there's no wind machine or anything like that that can shoulder the blame for the abysmal Kili look. Fili is acceptable (not ideal- give me my dwarven proportions) but Kili really is tall, dark and handsome in that picture, three things that the short, blonde dwarf that is his role should not be. This goes beyond 'making him distinct' or 'making him look young'- young people can be short and stocky too (in fact given childhood obesity figures a lot of them are!) this is exactly the kind of cynical manipulation of the decision to lessen the prosthetics and the calls for variety that i feared- the thin end of the wedge hasn't got any fatter! (Yes i know that doesn't make any sense but then Kili's look doesn't either and the parallel in phrase and message was too tempting to miss).
In the 'casting of Thorin' thread i wrote some things that some considered to be a bit sexist and patronising, at the time i was speaking out of paranoia, i never suspected i would be so near the truth. Surely now anyone who gives a damn about dwarves can see my point? While i'm trying not to rant, i do take this in bad humour and unless proven otherwise, i think anyone who tries to defend Kili's look is either a Estrogen Islander or a contrarian. Devil's advocate simply isn't a strong enough phrase
PJ- sort your Kili out before your next shooting session or i'll stick shadowfax's head in your bed
Dr Death
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 9:30pm
Post #219 of 601
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what PJ did to Kili and Fili...
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 9:30pm
Post #220 of 601
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XenArwen wasn *not* changed because of fan reaction
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But because Philippa and Liv felt it was wrong and wanted to change the character.
I doubt they're going to do any re-shooting because many dislike this look. They know we're going to watch the movies anyway, one (or perhaps a few) hot Dwarf here or there. And the audience is made of other groups than us Tolkien fans too, so they can afford losing some ToRNsibs.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
(This post was edited by Faenoriel on Jul 12 2011, 9:31pm)
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mykonos
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 9:31pm
Post #222 of 601
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And I don't see a problem with these two young dwarves when seen with the rest of the dwarf pics that have been released already. Or is that my hormones speaking?
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 9:33pm
Post #223 of 601
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pfirst picture we saw showed kili a little bit different than this
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when we saw the first picture of bilbo in the back ground we could see a dwarf very probably kili, and it looked different than this, so dont get angry
besides imagine all dwarves gimli like, it would be boring but more of that, very very difficult on the screen to know who is who, i had problems with merry and pippin imagine with 13 dwarves, it would be very confusing, even boring
GOD bless you all!!!!!!!!!
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SF
The Shire
Jul 12 2011, 9:34pm
Post #224 of 601
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Brothers don't always have the same color hair. I've known siblings with light and dark hair.
Personally, I think they look just fine.
(This post was edited by SF on Jul 12 2011, 9:36pm)
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Muireadhaigh
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 9:35pm
Post #225 of 601
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though he looks better than Kili. Kili's too pretty, too thin, and looks like a short elf.
Fili looks like a man. Really nothing dwarvish about him. Just a guy with a smile on his face.
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Marionette
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 9:35pm
Post #226 of 601
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Love this one, really couldn´t imagine Fili and Kili, but they are young dwarves so I think it´s OK.
The other dwarves look better "dwarvish" becoz they are the old ones.
Besides, they are achieving the goal of makind each dwarft DIFFERENT, and you can easily know who is who, that doesn´t happen thinking in the image we have from the book.
Well, I still find the first image (Ori, Dori and Nori ) odd, it looks like a photoshoped toys...
I am pretty sure they will all look wayyy better on film.
Hope to see the rest of dwarves this week.
"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 9:37pm
Post #227 of 601
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I'm expecting Bifur, Bofur and Bombur tomorrow! You go making statements like that, you're asking for trouble :/
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SF
The Shire
Jul 12 2011, 9:38pm
Post #228 of 601
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I was about to suggest the same thing.
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 9:39pm
Post #229 of 601
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I was waiting for your post, darling.
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And you didn't let me down.
I'm feeling really sorry for PJ right now. 13 Dwarves without much of characteristics must be the most uncinematic thing to try to film. He was almost bound to do something wrong, and while I feel that Kili's looks are off as far as Dwarven looks are considered, I'm still not feeling any panic at all. Actually I'm pretty sure I'll learn to live with this.
And as I said before, this isn't anywhere near my worst case scenario. (Which is that the characters would be boring.)
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 9:41pm
Post #230 of 601
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I was almost stunned into silence to tell the truth
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Nice to know you get a kick out of me having kittens though
Dr Death
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adu
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 9:42pm
Post #231 of 601
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Ok, I was kinda hesitant as well, but here are the positives for me
1) My wife has suddenly found a reason to get excited about the Hobbit (she is not into the whole Middle Earth craze like us mortals)
2) They are young, you cant make all dwarves fat and unattractive looking :)
3) I am sure in the movie, when seen amongst their peers, they will be much much more acceptable.
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Altaira
Superuser
Jul 12 2011, 9:44pm
Post #232 of 601
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I like that in a person. Very clever!
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 9:44pm
Post #233 of 601
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okay, I take it all back.
Hey, wouldn't it be great to get their pics tomorrow? I'm thinking it will be nearer the weekend.
Permanent address: Into the West
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 9:44pm
Post #235 of 601
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Countless directors have had to handle making twelve beardy apostles unique and recognisable, i'm sure 13 dwarves isn't that much of an issue.
Dr Death
(This post was edited by DrDeath153 on Jul 12 2011, 9:45pm)
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Amigo
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 9:44pm
Post #236 of 601
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Why should all dwarves look the same?
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Not all people look the same. Why should it apply to dwarves? There are pretty people, ugly people, fat people, skinny people, stocky people, tall people, short people, hairy people, bald people. I personally don't want to see 13 Gimlis. Diversity is good and realistic.
Speak "friend" and enter.
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rings7
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 9:48pm
Post #237 of 601
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By looking at all of them together
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They're definitely going for the good, the bad and the ugly. Oh, and the HOT ones.
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Estel78
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 9:49pm
Post #238 of 601
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I don't want to see 13 Gimlis but i also don't want to see 11 dwarves and 2 humans... //
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sharpened_graphite
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 9:49pm
Post #239 of 601
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...having Arwen look like this: http://img2.timeinc.net/...ox/megan_fox300a.jpg for the sake of "character diversity".
First and foremost, character diversity doesn't require any of the dwarves to be good looking. So this is no excuse.
And second, even if they are so dead set on having a good looking dwarf, why make him look like a modern generic fashion model rather than an actual Tolkien character?
All I personally hope for at the moment is that the picture is photoshopped and airbrushed beyond recognition for promotion and marketing's sake, and that the actual movie Kili looks like a proper dwarf that belongs in Middle Earth and not a billboard above a highway.
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little mouse
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 9:50pm
Post #240 of 601
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I`m quite happy with their looks, where is written that all dwarves have to be fat and bearded?
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R11
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 9:52pm
Post #242 of 601
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Simply an observation based on the explicit responses in this thread and the comments on PJ's facebook posting. My comment only applied to those expressing their delight for his hawtness anyway . There's really nothing subtle about it. It's something I would expect on a general forum like facebook, but to see it here is surprising to me because I always figured the members of TORN to be more the type to value visual authenticity over sex appeal. I mean, a dwarf that essentially has no characteristics of a dwarf and instead looks like human model? Sorry if you feel insulted by it though...
ron
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 9:54pm
Post #243 of 601
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Where does it say dwarf = ugly? //
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It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Eledhwen
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 12 2011, 9:54pm
Post #244 of 601
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For long shoots you stick your actors in wigs - it makes for easier continuity. I believe even Liv Tyler, whose hair is naturally pretty much like Arwen's, had a wig for LOTR.
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Lunamoth
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 9:55pm
Post #245 of 601
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I'm not sure what you are implying here, nor with the comment regarding hormones, but yanno, I'm just a femine with her knitting and such so what do I know about such things? 
I don't have any Tolkien ideals. He doesn't dictate my ethics or principles, thank you. He wrote some fictional books that a lot of people love, and they are good stories. And these are film adaptations. Just films. It doesn't change the content of the books. It becomes something else.
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pacochoa
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 9:55pm
Post #246 of 601
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There doesn't seem to be alot of talk about Kili's cool, black bow and arrow setup.
I think this is a pretty good sign that Kili will be doing some awesome action moves (i.e. Legolas)
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Eledhwen
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 12 2011, 9:56pm
Post #247 of 601
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I reckon the Dwarves will all look more Dwarvish when perspective is taken into account - when Kili's standing only chest-high to Gandalf, he'll look like a Dwarf. I actually quite like these two, and would like to thank PJ for not carrying out the crime of putting Aidan Turner in heavy prosthetics.
Seriously, I think there's some interesting design decisions going on, and I can't wait to see it all realised together on screen.
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Estel78
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 9:57pm
Post #248 of 601
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Where does it say hunky dwarf = hunky human? Different races, different ideals of beauty... //
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens
Jul 12 2011, 9:58pm
Post #249 of 601
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Whoa...not what I was expecting. This is going to go well around here...//
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"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules."
--Walter Sobchak
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Zizix
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 10:00pm
Post #250 of 601
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I thought Bard the Bowman had been revealed
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But it turns out it's a dwarf...
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rings7
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 10:02pm
Post #251 of 601
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Whether we like it or not, this will put more seats on the movie theaters which is at the end the main purpose of making a film. I just came from a blog where they just posted this picture and they're all ecstatic, did i say ecstatic? euphoric! with how these dwarfs are looking. All the Being Human fans are already sold out for the Hobbit.
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Amigo
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 10:02pm
Post #252 of 601
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Kili and Fili would be considered ugly by dwarven standards? And Oin and Gloin are the hunks? Who knows?
All that matters to me is that the actors personify the dwarven race through their acting abilities.
Speak "friend" and enter.
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R11
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 10:02pm
Post #253 of 601
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Paint all the fans with a broad brush. I specifically commented about a particular group expressing their glee over his steamy appeal. So, unless you have a guilty conscience Altaira it shouldn't bother you
ron
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 12 2011, 10:02pm
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Well I knew what you would say when these popped up.
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My thoughts go back to PJ's choice of 3-D. It gave a clear signal that he intended to go in a new direction. I would say that it is not what I expected but it could still turn out well in the end. If The Hildebrandt Brothers, Alan Lee, and Cor Blok can all illustrate Tolkien then I can live with GQ Dwarves.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Jul 12 2011, 10:04pm)
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Marionette
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 10:03pm
Post #255 of 601
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Are people saying they have no beards?
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Kili and Fili have beards XD Why people say they haven´t.
They have beards of YOUNG dwarves
Honestly the dwarves are not described, they basically are all the same while reading the book (s), OK, with some feaures, but making them different is OK
So, it is not my worry the look of the dwarves, or other characters.
Still waiting for Thorin cuz he is my favorite.
"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 10:03pm
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Dori, Nori and Ori didn't look like cookie-cutter Dwarves either
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But their photo was released to markedly better reception than this one. I don't want them to be thirteen Gimlis any more than you do, but I do want them to look like they're actually Dwarves. Judging by this picture, Kili does not quite fulfil that basic requirement.
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sharpened_graphite
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 10:05pm
Post #257 of 601
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It's not that dwarves should be "ugly"...
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...it's rather that they shouldn't be handsome in this kind of squeaky clean Holllywood pretty boy manner.
Look at this dwarf by Alan Lee: http://imageshack.us/...mages/97/dwarfs.jpg/
He looks like a dwarf without being "ugly", if anything he looks noble and dignified. The last thing he resembles is a model out of a fashion magazine (unfortunately the same cannot be said for Kili).
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mykonos
Bree
Jul 12 2011, 10:06pm
Post #258 of 601
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And then when we have the pics of all the dwarves, we can better make assumptions.
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 10:09pm
Post #259 of 601
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I'm not understanding your distinction
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...between "ugly" and "not handsome."
Apart from saying that dwarves are shorter than men and stockier than hobbits (which Kili admittedly isn't), Tolkien really doesn't define a "dwarvish" look. So I don't see how anyone can say definitively what they do or do not look like.
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
(This post was edited by RosieLass on Jul 12 2011, 10:10pm)
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 10:10pm
Post #260 of 601
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Liv's concerns were caused/amplified by fan feedback.
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I really don't know if the fans were what ultimately caused PJ to reconsider, but at this point, it hardly matters: you can delete a XenArwen sequence, but you can't reshoot every single scene that features Kili. So unless they figure out some way to go back and digitally Dwarfanise him, we're stuck with the hunk.
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 10:11pm
Post #261 of 601
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...that the "XenArwen" persona was eliminated before the fans ever knew anything about it.
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 10:12pm
Post #262 of 601
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But Christ is always portrayed as a handsome man
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Notice though, that they manage the handsome look even while he is very bearded. That's something that little irks me here. I understand they wanted to let Kili be handsome, but it wasn't necessary to make him pretty and shiny. Bearded men can look very good too.
As a metal fan I should know this.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 10:15pm
Post #263 of 601
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Dwarves are ugly because they are not Illuvatar's children.
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They are imperfect creations of Aule. Not ugly, but they certainly shouldn't compare to the beauty of elves...
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 10:19pm
Post #264 of 601
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Actually, Kili being handsome is not the problem here
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It's him being a wrong kind of handsome.
Fili looks pretty agreeable to me too, but he still keeps that Dwarven look.
Tolkien isn't very keen on describing his characters in minute detail (do the Elves have pointy ears, anyone?) but he does make it clear that Dwarves are short, strongly built and have beards. He doesn't say they're ugly. Now, this Kili here is tall, slim and pretty unbearded. That's the problem, not his handsome face.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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R11
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 10:19pm
Post #265 of 601
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It has nothing to do with knitting. What it does have to do with is a number of women getting hot and bothered over a Dwarf! Yes, a Dwarf! That in itself should tell you something is not right... Dwarves are short and stout, with heavy features. I think it's safe to say that when you have a Dwarf women are swooning over, and has nicer hair than Arwen, something has gone off the tracks somewhere .
ron
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Muireadhaigh
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 10:23pm
Post #266 of 601
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I never said they should look the same
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but,,, they shouldn't be handsome. At least I dont think they should imho. They were not part of Iluvitar's plan for the earth. It has been a while since I read the story, so I can't go into it, other than to say, they weren't meant to be. They were created by an eager Valar who didn't have the skill to create a new race, hence their short stature and, in my opinion at least, their physical shortcomings relating to beauty.
Anyway, it's just my opinion.
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 10:24pm
Post #267 of 601
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Dwarves aren't "imperfect". There's no mention of them being any worse than Elves or Men in any kind. And they're Children of Ilúvatar too, because Eru adopted them.
They're short in stature, and strongly built to be able to survive the dangers of Arda Marred. That's the reason for their distinctive looks: that they would be strong, and because Aulë wasn't quite sure how the Children are *exactly* going to look like.
Saying they're ugly because they're imperfect is like saying they're ugly like Orcs are ugly for their fall of grace. In M-E, being úvanima and losing your beauty is connected to moral decay, and linking Dwarves to this is pretty insulting to us Dwarf-friends.
Sorry if I heated up, I don't mean to be mean. I'm just passionate about this stuff.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 10:24pm
Post #268 of 601
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Although I'm a little surprised at the look of Kili, it is nothing to make me stay out of theaters, cursing PJ all the way.
The attitudes they project from this one picture seem right for a couple of young dudes out to take back the ancestral home, etc. They look cocky, proud, sure of their skill, and if they are also easy on the eyes from a human female point of view, I can live with that.
And suddenly the Tornadoes saw afar off a greenlight, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame;
and they knew that this was no vision only, but that PJ had made a new thing: The Hobbit, the Film that Is.
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 10:25pm
Post #269 of 601
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Although, to be strictly accurate, Eru made it all--even Morgoth and the Balrogs. And they wouldn't win any beauty contests.
Permanent address: Into the West
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sharpened_graphite
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 10:25pm
Post #270 of 601
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Well, there's a certain archetype that the dwarves express....
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They're miners, craftsmen, warriors, hardy and resilient folk. That already imposes certain traits on their appearance. People who lead hard lives (even young people) never looked well groomed and smooth faced the way young good looking actors and models do. And moreover, dwarves specifically embody the archetype of old age and its qualities, wisdom, stalwartness, irascibility. They're kin to Rocks and Mountains, the oldest elements in the world. They don't have beards for nothing. So even younger dwarves have to reflect that in their appearance in some way. These are the defining characteristics of the whole race. Of course it all depends on your decision of "handsome", and if it includes "dignified, noble and distinguished looking" than yes, dwarves can be handsome, if however it means Robert Pattinson from Twilight, than they most definitely aren't.
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 10:27pm
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Morgoth and the fire spirits were beautiful too in their original form. Only their moral fall from grace made them incabable of taking fair form. Eru didn't make them ugly.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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Crunchable Birdses
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 10:28pm
Post #273 of 601
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Or maybe someone in the PJ camp realised they're making a film
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and need to include at least one attractive main character. Just a stab in the dark...
In an ensemble of 13 lumpy dwarves I'm happy to "take the hit" as it were and have one good-looking one. Besides, has Tolkien ever described what a very young dwarf looks like?
* crunch *
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 10:29pm
Post #274 of 601
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And there is a "hubba hubba" coming from the direction of Texas, too!
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Permanent address: Into the West
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redgiraffe
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 10:29pm
Post #275 of 601
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It would have been better had he been a little closer looking to Fili
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If you look at Fili he looks the least dwarven of the others (excluding Kili) but still maintains a handsome look and can still pass for a dwarf and I find him completely believable as one of the youngest dwarves. I would find Kili just as believable had they done something similar but the thing is that Aidan has too fair of a face. He has a much more "GQ" look than O'Gorman.
Maybe this is how he starts the journey and throughout the film his beard gets longer. I HOPE that happens.
Again it's not the end of the world but it feels like they are trying to put a male megan fox in the film (although Turner is probably 10,000 xs better actor)
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 10:31pm
Post #276 of 601
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I'm wondering, what people were really expecting.
Because the minute I saw the faces of those actors, I saw this coming.
Especially after they replaced poor Rob with a very similar looking actor. The look certainly was important to them.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 10:31pm
Post #277 of 601
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Hah! Maybe that's why Legolas is there...
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he's handsome enough for all of them.
Permanent address: Into the West
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weaver
Half-elven
Jul 12 2011, 10:33pm
Post #278 of 601
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I'm kind of putting this in the same category as casting Frodo as young, rather than middle aged...
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...well young to the eye of the average movie goer (you can always argue Frodo was old but just looked young in the films...)
I was not here when the first shots of Elijah Wood came out, but I imagine when those images hit, there was similar consternation on these boards -- there are still some comments made about his age, even today, actually.
Not everyone agreed with casting a "young Frodo", but the film makers had definite reasons for that choice, I think largely because visually a young Frodo could pull of the "martyr" role better than a middle aged guy. He just looks more like a lamb going to the slaughter, you know?
I'm trusting there is some decent thinking behind all of their choices, including these "hot dwarves" -- for plot, practical, money or studio purposes -- whatever. They must think this look will work, so let's see how it plays out..
Don't know if this helps you Patty, but I thought I'd try! You were so disappointed in the Blu Ray, I hate to have you deal with dwarf depression on top of that!
Weaver
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens
Jul 12 2011, 10:34pm
Post #279 of 601
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They had to know this would cause a bit of controversy with fans when they finalized the look? Surely they knew Tolkien fans would be a bit taken aback by these looks? I'm just wondering what their thought process was here? Besides let's make a couple of young, good-looking dwarves that the ladies can drool over...I would think at this point, PJ would try to avoid naysayers at every point possible, but I assume he's still a renegade filmmaker, eh?
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules."
--Walter Sobchak
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Crunchable Birdses
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 10:35pm
Post #280 of 601
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It's almost as if they're making a blockbuster movie with mass appeal or some crazy nonsense!
* crunch *
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens
Jul 12 2011, 10:39pm
Post #281 of 601
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Not what I was expecting, but I feel pretty bad for PJ as well. Nothing he does will please all, and as I've said before it's a lose-lose for him, since he can't please everyone on every decision. But then again, how does that quote go, never feel sorry for a man who owns a plane?
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules."
--Walter Sobchak
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 10:40pm
Post #282 of 601
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To be honest, Legolas never did anything for me.
But neither did Aragorn, for that matter.
Oddly enough, nobody in the LOTR films really flipped my lid, as far as "eye candy" went.
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens
Jul 12 2011, 10:41pm
Post #283 of 601
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I was expecting more prosthesis and hair on the face...
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...but I still like them, the more I see them. I don't hate their looks, just different...
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules."
--Walter Sobchak
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 10:41pm
Post #284 of 601
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Actually, I'm sorry that Kili looks un-Dwarf like (although, I personally never had any issues with Elijah's age), fortunately for me, I was never as married to The Hobbit as I was to LotR, so I'm enjoying the ride with it and not too affected with changes. It is what it is, and as long as they don't make Rivendell and Hobbiton look other than a rough estimate of their already established LotR looks (only 60 years earlier) I'm kinda good.
Now, if they would just offer an alternate EE blu without all that dark overlay all would be good in Middle-earth, even if the dragon looks like Kangi Ska's picture of Pete the Dragon.
Permanent address: Into the West
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Altaira
Superuser
Jul 12 2011, 10:43pm
Post #285 of 601
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These are promo shots. I guarantee they'll all be different to some degree once the movies are in the can. Remember how much Gimli's look changed over the 3 LOTR films; even in the footage that wasn't cut.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 10:43pm
Post #286 of 601
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Fili is a good-looking fella too
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But he still passes for a Dwarf. Kili? Not so much. I'm comfortable with the idea of having a few reasonably attractive Dwarves in these films, as long as their attractiveness does not make them look un-Dwarvish – or in this case, Elvish.
According to Tolkien, all Dwarves are born with beards, and any Dwarf whose beard was shaved off would die of shame. I'm afraid that any attempt to squeeze five-o'-clock-shadow Kili into the logical lattice of Tolkien's legendarium is a bit of a dead end...
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Richie Rich
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 10:43pm
Post #287 of 601
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Let's see...all we gotta do is stick a respectable sized nose on him, throw in some black fluff in the chinnish region, oh and of course we simply must expand that scrawny waistline of his. Now he can officially be called a dwarf! http://i52.tinypic.com/2eqcjuw.jpg
P.S. Pay no attention to Starfish, he's beyond help at this point.
(This post was edited by Richie Rich on Jul 12 2011, 10:46pm)
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 10:46pm
Post #288 of 601
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Not one of us is a squealy teenaged fangirl!
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens
Jul 12 2011, 10:48pm
Post #289 of 601
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Haha, thanks for the laugh of the day...
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Frightening mental image indeed...
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules."
--Walter Sobchak
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weaver
Half-elven
Jul 12 2011, 10:53pm
Post #290 of 601
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you're welcome...and you know...
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....I imagine there are some folks who will go to The Hobbit who haven't seen dwarves since Snow White...so breaking the dwarf model might not be all bad, as there are a lot of stereotypes/biases out there that could really keep some folks from getting into Tolkien's story...Kili is breaking new ground here!
I hope that they reissue all the films in a the super, overextended, immortal version for you someday where you can make the color exactly what you want and adjust the "dwarviness" of the characters to your personal preference!
Weaver
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rings7
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 11:02pm
Post #292 of 601
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And just to think that i thought that Bilbo was gonna be the only good looking character in that group of travelers.
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rings7
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 11:03pm
Post #293 of 601
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I don't get it. What's wrong with Ori?
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Never mind. I hadn't read the rest of your post.
(This post was edited by rings7 on Jul 12 2011, 11:06pm)
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 11:07pm
Post #294 of 601
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Permanent address: Into the West
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 11:09pm
Post #295 of 601
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Help, I've been imprisoned by a messageboard thread!
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I've been tied to this thread for hours and can't get away!
Y'all know what ? You're such interesting friends. I have discussed Kili's looks here actually for HOURS!
Permanent address: Into the West
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Theodred
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 11:14pm
Post #296 of 601
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You might find this interview with Aidan Turner from February 20th a very interesting read,
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as you all have seen now how Kili probably will appear in the movie:
You were sporting a pretty impressive beard at the Hobbit press conference. Is that for Kili?
AIDAN TURNER: Yeah, it is. I’m growing out the beard. We’re giving it a chance, seeing what it looks like.
Is that how Peter Jackson plans to make you less handsome and more dwarf-like?
To de-handsomify me? [Laughs] No, not really. I mean, famously in the books, the dwarves have really long beards, so we’re just trying stuff out and seeing what it looks like.
Are you in “hobbit boot camp” now?
Yeah. Well, it’s dwarf boot camp, not really hobbit boot camp. It’s just all dwarves—training and stuff.
http://dehobbithyve.hyves.nl/
http://www.widgetbox.com/widget/the-hobbit-news-widget-ronald_40
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Zizix
Rivendell
Jul 12 2011, 11:22pm
Post #297 of 601
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the picture shows Aidan with his own beard, they later decided that didn't work, and pasted on the biggest beard ever, that we have yet to see?
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 11:25pm
Post #298 of 601
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My girlfriend shouted at me earlier "put the laptop down!!" she's asleep now, coz it's half twelve, so I sneakily picked it up again
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Jul 13 2011, 12:39am)
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dwarf_girl
The Shire
Jul 12 2011, 11:25pm
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Kili looks like a noldor... so what! A little (hot) variety doesnt hurt.
The pic with all of them together looks pretty nice. In there, you can see that the "traditional" dwarves are the ones at the middle, the oldest ones. And the youngest represent the new waves in the dwarf world.
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 11:29pm
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There was a TV program I was supposed to watch. So much for that program.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 11:30pm
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Back off! The snarky fire-breathing ginger is mine! ALL MINE!//
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**********************************
NARF
NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 11:32pm
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this is the first set of pictures that i don't love.
i sort of understand that they want to get the hunk factor into the hobbit somewhere, but these two just look like normal humans. they don't look bad, they just don't look like dwarves-- especially kili. honestly, i was afraid that they were going to do this with all the dwarves, so the first five reveals were a big relief. but honestly, this photo is a disappointment.
but i absolutely love the previous 5, and fili looks actually not too bad, but kili is just far too hunky for a dwarf.
my concerns when i saw that they cast aidan turner seem to have come to fruition.
oh well.
bring on more dwarves!
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 11:33pm
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I wonder how he is taking this. Naturally, it's not the actor's fault how his character looks like - it's up to PJ and the design team. But remembering how Liv even still sometimes gets bashed for the changes PJ made for her character...
I hope the guy has either the wisdom of his own, or someone wise advising him to not to read these threads.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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Theodred
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 11:33pm
Post #304 of 601
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I just was making you aware of this remarkable interview,
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because Aidan Turner said he was growing out his beard for Kili, but after seeing the photo of Kili, the opposite seems true: Kili with (almost) no beard. so somewhere down the line PJ felt a beard for Kili probably wasn't working for him I guess.
http://dehobbithyve.hyves.nl/
http://www.widgetbox.com/widget/the-hobbit-news-widget-ronald_40
(This post was edited by Theodred on Jul 12 2011, 11:38pm)
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Brandybuckled
Lorien
Jul 12 2011, 11:36pm
Post #305 of 601
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Almost Kha'ili Drogo!
NAArP since 2011*
*Not An Ardent Purist
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 11:37pm
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I have a feeling the beard in this picture is a work-in-progress...
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Either he'll have a thicker beard in the film or his beard will grow as the story progresses...
(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Jul 12 2011, 11:39pm)
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 11:40pm
Post #307 of 601
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I was thinking the same thing.
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But I loved Liv's Arwen, and I take every thread opportunity to say so, in case she somehow still gets to know.
Permanent address: Into the West
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Geldof the Grey
Registered User
Jul 12 2011, 11:41pm
Post #308 of 601
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Kili looks like he's hitting us with dwarf blue steel!
Seriously this is a bit too much isn't it? I keep seeing comments that Tolkien never described what the dwarves looked like and I'm sure he didn't, but Peter Jackson did establish a "look" for them. No one wants to see thirteen identical Gimlis, but Kili is a bit too far removed from what we already know. He just looks human.
I would like to have seen Alan Lee and John Howe's faces when PJ sprung this one on them. I bet they swallowed their paintbrushes.
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 12 2011, 11:43pm
Post #309 of 601
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Well, don't quack too loudly or you'll wake her up./
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Permanent address: Into the West
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 11:48pm
Post #310 of 601
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And firmly belief the inclusion of her story from the Appendices to the main saga was exactly the right choice. Tolkien would have approved.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 12 2011, 11:48pm
Post #311 of 601
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Tolkien DID describe them... anyone who says otherwise is in denial.
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Fili and Kili are described as short and fat with yellow beards, blue hoods and silver belts. Dori, Ori, Nori, Oin and Gloin however, are not described beyond the colour of their hoods.
(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Jul 12 2011, 11:50pm)
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Altaira
Superuser
Jul 12 2011, 11:49pm
Post #312 of 601
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I don't understand your logic, I guess
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I don't understand how appreciating the good looks of an actor or actress translates into abandoning all loyalty to Tolkien. Surely you're not going to tell me that anyone of the male persuasion who thinks Liv Tyler or Miranda Otto are hot are traitors to the books?
So, yes, even by including only "a particular group expressing their glee over his steamy appeal" you are painting a very broad brush to take that and draw a very specific conclusion like the one you're drawing about females here at TORn. We don't have anything to prove, but if you know half of us even half as well as we deserve, you would know that none of us deserve that harsh judgment.
I hope you never stumble upon a good Estrogen Island session here (which, by the way, doesn't include a LOTR book-burning), as we'll all sorely disappoint you, as will the lads here who like a good Testosterone Tower thread.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 11:50pm
Post #313 of 601
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A little correction to the above
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I'm in no way accusing anyone of bashing Turner. No such sentimentals have appeared here. I shouldn't have even brought the subject into the discussion, as it's ultimately secondary. The mere fact that many fans are reacting negatively to his character must be hard for the actor.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 11:52pm
Post #314 of 601
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it's my understanding that dwarves don't start out thin and then get "fat", but that the dwarvish race is a naturally stocky race.
elephants don't start out skinny then get fat, they always look like elephants, and always have that same basic elephant shape.
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lurtz2010
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 11:52pm
Post #315 of 601
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They're perfect young dwarves and people really need to get over the beards, they'll probably get longer as the journey goes on anyway.
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jul 12 2011, 11:52pm
Post #316 of 601
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Kili does look a little Ted Theodore Logan... Hmm...
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 12 2011, 11:54pm
Post #317 of 601
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To me, this shows the real progression of the dwarf lifespan if you will. I could totally see young dwarves starting out fairly "normal" looking, just small(and to be honest the only thing we really know about Tolkien's dwarves is they have beards and they are short and kind of stocky, other than that there is no reason to think they aren't as individual as humans are and some humans are sort of squat and ugly and some are tall and beautiful and some are small and beautiful and some are tall and ugly, etc, etc, etc).
Aule was after originally making them to be similar to Iluvatar's creations, IIRC - Elves and Men(actually didn't dwarves come before Men? I can't remember but I supposed the Valar knew men were coming some day by that point), he didn't set out to make squat little rough guys, they just didn't turn out quite how he planned them too, because he didn't have Iluvatar's abilities. So I'd imagine they might look alright to start and then sort of start looking more stereotypically "dwarvish" as they age.
To be honest I tend to think that the Gimli-like dwarves are probably considered the hotties of the dwarf world and while we may think "Oh look at Kili and Fili, how adorable" they are probably thought of as being not great looking by OTHER dwarves(at least not yet, they are, at this point in their lives, basically little more than teenagers) . Sort of like Marilyn from The Munsters. LOL (If anyone hasn't seen it, it's a comedy from the 60's based on the idea of Frankenstein's monster, Dracula, dracula's daughter being a family with the monster and the daughter's son being a wolf boy - they have a young niece who lives with them named Marilyn who is very pretty blonde girl, to human eyes, but they are always feeling bad for her because, to their eyes, she's very plain. :) )
Basically I could even see it being played for a bit of a joke, about how the "goodlooking" dwarves are actually "ugly".
Though I guess maybe this explains all that ribbing Aidan Turner took about "sex appeal" in that charity video. :)
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2011, 11:54pm
Post #318 of 601
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'The Hobbit: Fili and Kili's Excellent Adventure'? //
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 13 2011, 12:08am
Post #319 of 601
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But Liv Tyler and Miranda Otto's characters are described as fair in the books... //
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 13 2011, 12:10am
Post #320 of 601
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As what is presumably the diametric counterpart of Estrogen Island (or Oestrogen Island, as I prefer to call it), wouldn't a good Testosterone Tower thread involve male Tornadoes fawning over attractive female actresses? If so, I don't think we've actually had any of those – as far as I can recall, the announcements of Evangeline Lilly and Cate Blanchett didn't result in an any 'approving males vs disapproving females' arguments (whose inverse R11 seems to see here). Unless by 'Testosterone Tower sessions' you mean those threads where some of us enthusiastically discussed the merits of a crusty old Thorin not aimed towards the female sector of the audience.
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 12:20am
Post #321 of 601
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than that twisted creature
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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Garfeimao
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 12:20am
Post #322 of 601
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Sorry, I'm going to pull out the girl card too and say 'Hubba Hubba' here.
When the cast list started coming out I kept hoping we'd get to see the faces of some of these actors, and it looks like we will be able to. Yup, I'm a wee bit shallow on this point, but I was not looking foward to seeing 13 pairs of eyes staring out of fuzzy faces for two whole films.
But I do have to wonder about the Middle-earth Cosmo pose and the obvious advertising for Lothlorien Beauty Care products going on here.
Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,
Garfeimao
The orange stripey One
Cruise to Middle-earth
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 12:22am
Post #323 of 601
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although it apparently was given.
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 12:22am
Post #324 of 601
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I've thought this for a while now
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...That these two rascals are the new Merry-Pippin duo for The Hobbit.
I really thought everything about what they seemed to be casting for said "Merry and Pippin of the Hobbit" and it also makes sense, given how they end up - that he might particularly want to make the audience get to know and feel for them so the ending will have some poignancy and affect..
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jul 13 2011, 12:22am
Post #325 of 601
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I agree with your assessment of Fili
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It seems like people are mostly posting about Kili not looking dwarven enough, but I agree with you, Fili looks suitably dwarven to me.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 12:29am
Post #326 of 601
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They may not all start out pretty...
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I am not one to complain. I generally like what PJ comes up with. But Killi is down right terrible! Other than the large ears he looks 100% human. I am all for variety but they should at least look like they belong to the same race. But he doesn't. Unless his daddy got busy with a human or elf. And I don't buy the " it's be cause they are young" argument either. Because by that logic all dwarves start out pretty and as they age they get dwarf like? Come on! At the very least they have sweet weapons.
They may not all start out as pretty but they may well all start out fairly slender and smooth faced. Actually the funny thing about Kili is, to be I can "see his uncle in him". I mean I could imagine a young Thorin having dark hair like that and sort of glare like the one Kili is wearing.
How often do you see a picture of someone as a teenager and they look all young and freshfaced and then you see them 30 years later and they are fat and gruff and it's like "How did that handsome quarterback end up....like this?" or "How did that pretty cheerleader end up looking like Nurse Ratchett?" I don't see why dwarves should go through less of a change than humans might. I mean I bet all the fat hobbits didn't start out fat, they started out as those adorable little kiddies like we saw at the beginning of Fellowship of the Rings.
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nenyacaster
Bree
Jul 13 2011, 12:32am
Post #327 of 601
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I like these styles; variety is good. I'm sure that the dwarves are capable of making scissors and razors to cut beards if they so choose to. A population is never without exceptions.
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rings7
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 12:33am
Post #328 of 601
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I wasn't around the forum during the LOTR time, so
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what exactly happened to Liv Tyler? Was she on the boards and saw all the heat on her or what?
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 13 2011, 12:37am
Post #329 of 601
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Your posts are few, Richie Rich, but always memorable! :D
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Darkfalz
Registered User
Jul 13 2011, 12:39am
Post #330 of 601
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Patently ridiculous. Epic failure. Words cannot express how bad Kili looks. Like he's from a completely different universe/race to the rest of them.
This also gives them scope to put in all sorts of jokes about him being the "pretty one" (un-Tolkien humour, that is).
Jackson is mostly competent but every once in a while takes a stupidly bad idea and runs with it (eg Arwen). I guess in any behind the scenes PJ will explain it away by suggesting the dwarven aging process is what makes the older ones (and Gimli) have the exaggerated noses, eyebrows and so on (sort of like acromegaly I guess) - having a 6 o'clock shadow with completely normal human/elven features (minus the out of place ears) and windswept hair is a big slap in the face to every fan of the book.
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Annael
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 12:39am
Post #331 of 601
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LOL!
Although I suppose that the Dwarves that attended Elrond's Council were the elders, while the Dwarves Thorin picked for his little adventure were for the most part the best warriors he could find? Well, maybe not Bombur . . . but I can believe that the youngest ones might not have filled out yet. I was pretty scrawny in my own youth :)
The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
(This post was edited by Annael on Jul 13 2011, 12:42am)
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rings7
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 12:42am
Post #332 of 601
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some people do find this hard to swallow. But you wouldn't expect 13 ugly (aka Gimli) looking dwarfs for these two movies. That would not be attractive for the viewers. 13 characters are too many to not have "pretty" ones among them. This is Hollywood and Hollywood is eye candy wherever you look at it. So many comments i read somewhere else about how much they love the looks of the dwarfs and the amount of desire to see them in action is increasing. Isn't that the whole purpose?
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
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Jul 13 2011, 12:44am
Post #333 of 601
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wouldn't a good Testosterone Tower thread involve male Tornadoes fawning over attractive female actresses?
And not necessarily actresses from LOTR or The Hobbit either. (Although Miranda Otto and Liv Tyler did get more than their fair share of screentime.)
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Darkfalz
Registered User
Jul 13 2011, 12:44am
Post #334 of 601
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When the cast list started coming out I kept hoping we'd get to see the faces of some of these actors, and it looks like we will be able to. Yup, I'm a wee bit shallow on this point, but I was not looking foward to seeing 13 pairs of eyes staring out of fuzzy faces for two whole films.
Sorry, but Tolkien wasn't meant to be Twilight. I dunno if we can immediately blame PJ on this, I'd say Fran and Phillipa are probably more to blame.
Granted, the hobbits (especially Frodo) looked way too "pretty" compared to illustrations we've seen in the past, but Kili is just not in the same realm of reality as the rest of them.
(This post was edited by Altaira on Jul 13 2011, 12:56am)
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
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Jul 13 2011, 12:46am
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she makes the comment that she made the mistake of looking at fan websites to see what they were saying, and came away in tears. We don't know if that was during filming or after FOTR was released, or which websites she went to.
However it's clear from the appendices that the change in direction for Arwen began with Liv and Philippa talking over dinner, and Pete also came to the same conclusion. The Arwen change wasn't prompted by fan reaction to the rumours of XenArwen.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 12:56am
Post #336 of 601
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yes, but these so called " heart throb" or "hunky" dwarves could have at leastly look more like Dwarves, not these armoured up man-child things that look like they are workin for the middle earth fashion industry...
Fili and Kili ARE man-children(or "dwarf-children") - they are basically the dwarvish equivalent of high school seniors or college students. Fili and Kili are basically little more than kids. And not kids who have been hardened in war - kids who are are going on their 'first adventure"(::sniff::) They are basically dwarvish princes who while I'm sure they've been trained hard by their uncle have also in some ways been very protected.
I do think they could have gone a long to reducing negativity if they'd lost the wind machine though. :) I'm not sure why they went the Pantene commercial route with that.
My theory on that is that after the "shock" of "heartthrob dwarves" with Fili and Kili, they figure it'll make all the other dwarves look that much "better" in comparison for the naysayers. Meanwhile those of us who don't care as much can say "gee, that's one hot dwarf!"(depending on one's personal favorite:))
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jul 13 2011, 12:57am
Post #337 of 601
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If you're going to say something like that...
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Can you at least say "some women?" Some of us here who are women care more about the plot than eye candy. Honestly, what with all the concerns people have about Richard Armitage as being "eye candy," I've had a lot more concerns about Turner being too eye candy, no matter how much I enjoyed watching him in Being Human. I wish they at least used a curly wig, as Turner's naturally curly hair seems to me to look more dwarfish than this straight wig.
I'm hoping that his performance will take precedence over his costuming.
As for Twilight, I'm a woman who thinks it's pure drivel, so clearly, not all women have the same tastes and preferences.
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Buchanicus
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 12:58am
Post #338 of 601
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I would just like to interject that I really like the look of all the dwarves so far... I love how distinct each one is. Just like I've said before, are these the dwarves i've always imagined? No they are not. Do I still think the new designs are great? Yes, yes I do.
It also appears that many "reactions" seem to be of the"knee-jerk" variety... intial reactions without really taking a look at the pictures before "getting upset".
TORn member formally known as ryan1976.
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Garfeimao
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 1:00am
Post #340 of 601
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Never been described as Vapid before
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Definitely going to have fun playing against type for once. ;-)
but plot ignorant, couldn't disagree more on that point.
I'm not sure how someone's looks, be it a real person or an actor playing a role, has any effect on plot or characterization.
Like others here, I'm just going to watch 14, sometimes 15, individuals having an adventure in Middle-earth. They will encounter Trolls and Goblins and Wargs and Eagles and Spiders and Elves and wind up stuck outside a mountain trying to figure out how to get inside without being killed by a Dragon, and in the end, all that matters is how they all get through that together, not what they looked like while doing it.
I kinda think that 'vapid' claim belongs to all those who are so wrapped up in the look of the characters, that they forget there will be a performance aspect to the character.
Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,
Garfeimao
The orange stripey One
Cruise to Middle-earth
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 1:09am
Post #342 of 601
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Countless directors have had to handle making twelve beardy apostles unique and recognisable, i'm sure 13 dwarves isn't that much of an issue. Dr Death
Most of the time in all those Life of Jesus movies, the only one who actually stands out is Peter and maybe Judas, otherwise the rest tend to blend into a gang of dark haired guys in long tunics.
So actually no most directors do NOT manage, imo, to differentiate between 12 disciples, most fail pretty miserably and after their initial introductions they mostly just blend into a group, aside from maybe one or two, perhaps 3 standouts.
Thus I can see why PJ would have a difficult job ahead of him. :)
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rings7
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 1:11am
Post #343 of 601
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I'm a woman and i hate Twilight. I also care a lot more about the performances of all these actors than how they look. They can be cannon and look the perfect dwarfs and suck at acting.
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Garfeimao
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 1:15am
Post #344 of 601
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13th Warrior did it fairly well
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The only film with a large band of warriors who were all supposed to look like warriors that I've seen that did this well was 13th Warrior.
You have Antonio Banderas, beardless, and 12 Vikings who all looked uniquely different to each other, and yet, all a part of the same culture. Some had more facial hair than others, some had tattoos, a few were gigantic, their armor was different, etc. They all worked well together and yet each had unique weapons and duties that all complimented the others.
It is this paradigm that I am hoping PJ achieves in filming this group.
Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,
Garfeimao
The orange stripey One
Cruise to Middle-earth
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Ruijor
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 1:16am
Post #345 of 601
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My goodness, 15 pages already?
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All because of a very short bearded dwarf who looks like a young Elrond in a bad hair day?
Well Aidan Turner always stated hat we was growing a beard for the film if I remember it correctly...
(This post was edited by Ruijor on Jul 13 2011, 1:17am)
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 1:18am
Post #346 of 601
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They both, and especially Aidan, look like half-Elves who offended Saruman one time to many and had a shrinking spell placed on them as a consequence.
That said, I DO love the fact that at least Fili has the yellow hair and beard the books described. I was hoping for the same for Kili, just as I still hope for a blue bearded Dwalin. Balin already seems to have the proper white beard. Only five of the Dwarves actually get an explicit physical description in The Book, so those five might as well have their descriptions well adhered to. These are the first two I'm a little worried about, Kili looks downright elvish to me...
I'm not going to judge until I see them in action tho
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jul 13 2011, 1:23am
Post #347 of 601
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I do agree with much of what you say here.
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I was always a little more concerned about how Turner would turn out than Armitage. I really think that they "cleaned" Turner up too much in this picture for him to be Gimli's "fully armed and filthy" statement. Couldn't they have at least kept Turner in curly hair? Curly hair seems so much more dwarfish than these sliken tresses. Or even dreads.
I still don't think dwarves have to look as specificly Gimli-ish as you prefer, but Kili doesn't come across as dwarf. He comes across as a short human.
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Altaira
Superuser
Jul 13 2011, 1:26am
Post #348 of 601
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--> Sub-thread removed for veering off into personal territory... please move on. Thanks! //
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Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 1:28am
Post #349 of 601
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...this Estrogen Island you speak of? I keep hearing about it, but I've never been able to find it. :)
I don't understand how appreciating the good looks of an actor or actress translates into abandoning all loyalty to Tolkien. Surely you're not going to tell me that anyone of the male persuasion who thinks Liv Tyler or Miranda Otto are hot are traitors to the books? So, yes, even by including only " a particular group expressing their glee over his steamy appeal" you are painting a very broad brush to take that and draw a very specific conclusion like the one you're drawing about females here at TORn. We don't have anything to prove, but if you know half of us even half as well as we deserve, you would know that none of us deserve that harsh judgment. I hope you never stumble upon a good Estrogen Island session here (which, by the way, doesn't include a LOTR book-burning), as we'll all sorely disappoint you, as will the lads here who like a good Testosterone Tower thread. |
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 1:33am
Post #350 of 601
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Didn't any of YOU learn anything.................. from Gandalf?
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"Do NOT be too eager to deal out Death and JUDGEMENT, even the Wise (PJ&CO)....can NOT SEE all ends."
xoxoxOB
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 13 2011, 1:37am
Post #351 of 601
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The curls would have been good
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Actually, they could have kept him just the way he looks IRL and he would have been pretty fine hair-wise.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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Spencissimus
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 1:40am
Post #352 of 601
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You make some good points, MC Double D!
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...for me, it seems like with Kili they forgot to adjust his waistline. All the other actors (except maybe Ori, but he still looks stocky) have their belts somewhere that gives the impression that they are actually of a dwarvish build, Aiden Turner appears to have his belt around his actual waist and just looks like a human.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 13 2011, 1:40am
Post #353 of 601
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lasts about one day of camping before he's tying it back or asking for a little braiding assistance from his brother. Speaking as someone with long straight hair, if you're going to rough it in the wilds, braids are the way to go.
Seriously though, while I'm not wildly enthusiastic, I'm still waiting to see all the dwarves together before I form a definite opinion. Context is a very important factor here, as all these characters are going to be more or less milling around in a pack everywhere they go. I'd love a formal shot of Bilbo at the end to add in to the group, too.
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 13 2011, 1:41am
Post #354 of 601
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Thanks for bringing it up!
I want to have faith he looks more Dwarvish on-screen than in this promo shot.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Jul 13 2011, 1:47am
Post #355 of 601
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It's a game that appears occasionally on Off Topic
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Someone will start with a post inviting everyone to Estrogen Island, and the post will contain a picture of a good-looking man, or a link to a picture. Others participate with other pictures. Much giggling and silliness ensues .
Estrogen Island started way back in the early days of TORN when most of the members were men. They had an occasional thread called Testosterone Tower with pictures and the women reacted with Estrogen Island.
Here's a link to the TORN dictionary, which has lots of definitions of some of our obscure terminology
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Spencissimus
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 1:50am
Post #356 of 601
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...I think that hatted dwarf peering around at Bilbo in the Empire pic is probably Jimmy Nesbitt as Bofur. While I'm at it, the bald dwarf is probably Dwalin, the chap next to him Bifur, and of course Balin with the white hair and beard! If I'm right, the only dwarf we haven't had even the slightest glimpse at is Bombur.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 2:20am
Post #358 of 601
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Hey, I'm watching Twilight: Eclipse at this very moment! //
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jul 13 2011, 2:25am
Post #360 of 601
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I'm going on 2 hours in this one thread alone!
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Helllllppppppppp!
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 2:35am
Post #362 of 601
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Speaking of being "stunned into silence"
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Miss Lily is going to work out just fine. I predict her and Kili hook up.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 2:36am
Post #363 of 601
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Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 2:39am
Post #364 of 601
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Ok a virtual rootbeer says Evangeline will work out just fine ;) //
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 2:45am
Post #365 of 601
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I sense you are taking a small step back in regards to her association with Fili.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 2:55am
Post #366 of 601
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but let's settle this once and for all... is Aiden Turner Fili or Kili? This will be the bane of me. I need a mnemonic, stat!
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jul 13 2011, 2:58am
Post #367 of 601
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For the life of me, I can't come up with a mnemonic. I could with the components of DNA because Adenine and Thymine start with my brother's initials, and Guanine and Cytosine start with my aunt's initials.
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sushiking
The Shire
Jul 13 2011, 3:01am
Post #368 of 601
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I'm going to say this; They will be my favorite in the bunch without a doubt now :P
I sure they will act like Merry And Pippin and be as awesome as Legolas was ;D, seeing how Kili has a cute small bow and arrow and fili has 2 awesome swords!!!!
This is awesome!
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens
Jul 13 2011, 3:06am
Post #369 of 601
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Yeah, I'm really digging the look of Fili.
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I like his dual-wielded swords, and the epic look on his face, like "I'm about to start some %*$&". It's Kili I'm unsure about at this point, but it could just be the Fabio-commercial hairdo.
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules."
--Walter Sobchak
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R11
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 3:07am
Post #370 of 601
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There's nothing wrong with appreciating the good looks of actors or actresses. But my point was that it seems to fly in the face of Tolkien's vision and story to be so enthusiastic over the appearance of a character who doesn't look much like they're from the race of the character they're supposed to be . I think most people agree that Liv and Miranda fit the looks of their respective roles pretty well, even though both are quite easy on the eyes. I mean, we're talking about a board here where people obsess over minute details, but somehow this rather large oddity is Hunky-Dory (no pun intended of course)? That just surprises me...
Iike I said before, I made the comment after reading a number of comments on PJ's facebook post before reading this thread as well and meant the comment in general and not specifically regarding TORn. And quite honestly I really don't see where this feeling of it's harshness comes from. I'm very surprised that so many seem to have taken it that way and think I was being judgmental to tell you the truth.
I hope I don't stumble into one of your sessions. You know I've got images in my head of sharks with blood in the water already!
ron
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 3:11am
Post #371 of 601
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Aha! "Will Ki-ss Li-ly" might work... your move Kangi XD //
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your move Kangi
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Phibbus
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 3:12am
Post #372 of 601
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So actually no most directors do NOT manage, imo, to differentiate between 12 disciples, most fail pretty miserably and after their initial introductions they mostly just blend into a group, aside from maybe one or two, perhaps 3 standouts. That's pretty much the way it should be handled for effective storytelling. Anything beyond that is sidetracking for its own sake and to no dramatic purpose.
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sushiking
The Shire
Jul 13 2011, 3:13am
Post #373 of 601
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Haha, his hair is pretty cool though, not all Dwarves have thick hair and plat there hair/bears :P
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 13 2011, 3:23am
Post #374 of 601
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It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens
Jul 13 2011, 3:28am
Post #375 of 601
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This thread is a hefty slice of fried gold.
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Some of the sub-discussions and posts have verged on epic-win. I've definitely gotten my fair share of entertainment today.
Also, how much do you want to bet that the next batch of dwarves will be properly uglified and hairified? There's a formula to releasing these photos, I just know it!
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules."
--Walter Sobchak
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 13 2011, 3:32am
Post #376 of 601
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I think they're alternating the controversial with the traditional. I'm expecting the B-trio to be short, stocky, and bearded in the best traditional sense...though possibly with a little less on top. We shall see.
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 3:38am
Post #377 of 601
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So actually no most directors do NOT manage, imo, to differentiate between 12 disciples, most fail pretty miserably and after their initial introductions they mostly just blend into a group, aside from maybe one or two, perhaps 3 standouts. That's pretty much the way it should be handled for effective storytelling. Anything beyond that is sidetracking for its own sake and to no dramatic purpose.
The original posted stated that directors DID differentiate between them with no problem, as an argument for saying that it wouldn't be a problem to differentiate between the dwarves. The rightness or wrongness of that differentiation or lack thereof of was not under discussion. :)
My opinion is that no most of the 12 apostles in films do not look like anything more than a bunch of guys with beards, the directors normally do not do a good job differentiating, which is the opposite of what the original post was saying.
And IMO, there is a dramatic purpose in The Hobbit for at least a few of the dwarves, most particularly Thorin and Fili and Kili but a 2 or 3 of the others as well, to really stand out--so basically at least half the dwarves should be more than just "ah...more dwarves".
Thorin as the "lead dwarf" probably wouldn't be too hard to keep track of but we need to really know who Fili and Kili are so that way when...what happens happens the audience will care and not be like "Oh shame that...now who are they again?" (I'm not sure if that is considered a spoiler seeing as, well, it's in the book and the book has been out for 60 years or so)
And frankly, imo, the best and most balanced way to do that is to give all the dwarves their own looks and personalites.
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jul 13 2011, 3:40am)
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sushiking
The Shire
Jul 13 2011, 3:40am
Post #378 of 601
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Ya, but i don't have anytime reading 10 other pages D:
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But i'll tell you this, i can already see myself crying at the end of the hobbit for these two characters :'(
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northoftheborder
Registered User
Jul 13 2011, 3:41am
Post #379 of 601
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I signed up to TORN to voice my Kili disappointment
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This is my first post on TORN, even though I have been visiting the site about twice or thrice a week since early last year. I feel moved to voice my thoughts now because of the Kili and Fili photograph. Fili is a bit naff, but he can slide this now if only because Kili is a departure too far. It is hard to gauge much from a solitary photo so let's not be hasty. Yet first impressions are important (especially for $500m movies!) and this first impression is a stinker. With her semi-beard, stout build, and lack of height, my grandmother does a better Kili and dwarf impression than what is being done here. Who made awful decision to portray Kili in this fashion?
I hope The Hobbit in 5 reports upon the mixed and disappointed reaction to the Kili image.
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Altaira
Superuser
Jul 13 2011, 3:43am
Post #380 of 601
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At one point this afternoon there were 61 registered users online
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That's the most I've ever seen. We also had 15 new users sign up so far today though that's not even close to the all-time record of 91 new users in 24 hours in March 2010 when we announced a LOTR Blue-ray giveaway where people had to post their favorite scene in a thread on the boards.
Yes, this day has been interesting and fun, and there's certainly more to come!
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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Eldaria
Rivendell
Jul 13 2011, 3:50am
Post #381 of 601
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Your tweaking of Kili is just what was needed. Now he looks like he actually belongs in the same movie.
“There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep ... that have taken hold.”
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens
Jul 13 2011, 3:52am
Post #382 of 601
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Your feelings are no doubt shared by many, here and other places on the net. I too was a bit blown-back by Kili when I first saw the picture this morning. At first, I was a little shocked, then a bit confused, then I accepted him, and I'm kind of starting to like him, strange enough. But there is a giant pessimist and cynic in me that says, "yes, some of the people on this board are right: this is all to garner a larger female fanbase that may not have been interested in Tolkien before, and it was probably a joint decision between the filmmakers and the studio suggestions to try to gain a new audience". But I'm trying hard not to let that cynical voice on my shoulder overpower the optimist on my other shoulder saying: "Peter knows what he's doing, don't worry about the look of one or two dwarves poison your pre-conceptions of the film, which will most likely be brilliant overall". I can see why some people could hate this design, I totally understand that, and I also understand why some people love it. Kind of strange, but I don't really have any strong opinions on them otherwise, except that I liked Fili right away as a young dwarf, and I'm curious about Kili. We'll see.
Just as long as the next few don't look like this, I'll be fine:
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules."
--Walter Sobchak
(This post was edited by Maiarmike on Jul 13 2011, 4:02am)
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LordElrond
Rivendell
Jul 13 2011, 3:55am
Post #383 of 601
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But I think by the time the first film is out we will all have accepted the different looks and when we are actually watching it we will be too wrapped up in the story to even bother caring what they look like.
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Proudfeet!
Bree
Jul 13 2011, 3:57am
Post #384 of 601
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Maybe the other Dwarves will tease them
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Make fun of their slenderness. Lack of beard.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 3:58am
Post #385 of 601
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That's what I keep thinking. As someone mentioned above with the comparison with Merry and Pippin, what would it have been like if that had happened to them? Because it's basically the equivalent of that. I'm thinking it's going to pretty heartbreaking. It's really a very tragic situation and they are quite young, for dwarves.
(OK to be honest? I wasn't all that into Merry and Pippin, I might not have cared that much if it had happened to them but still know that part they were playing and that a lot of people DID care about what happened to them, I can already see Fili and Kili having the sort of "journey" I'd care more about anyway and though by nature of the differences between the books, their roles were smaller than Merry and Pippin's, they were two of my favorite dwarves in the book)
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 4:06am
Post #386 of 601
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I've been reading around a bit
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And to be honest, overall the reaction to Kili is not bad at all. In some places it's very positive, and in others it's just "Hey they had to differentiate between somehow, and so far the dwarves look cool and have great weapons"
So yeah I have to say even on more "male" dominated general entertainment sites(as opposed to more female dominated general entertainment sites) the response, from what I can tell, hasn't really been that negative, it's probably been even better than I thought it would be, going by some of the reactions here.
Many people commenting seem to be excited about seeing them, looking forward to more and think the dwarves, as a whole, look cool, even while maintaining individual styles that range from "typical dwarf" to "dwarf pretty boy". :)
To me that is exactly the reaction to the photos that have been released all during the past week SHOULD be getting.
It's getting a lot of people excited, from what I can tell, it's making a lot people think seeing a movie with 13 dwarves among the main characters could be very cool. That isn't remotely a bad thing.
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jul 13 2011, 4:08am)
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens
Jul 13 2011, 4:12am
Post #387 of 601
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Although I'm definitely not going over to AICN.com to see what they're saying in the talkback, because I can already guess, and they'll say it with some colorful language.
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules."
--Walter Sobchak
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rings7
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 4:12am
Post #388 of 601
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I bet Thorin's pic will be the longest thread.
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sushiking
The Shire
Jul 13 2011, 4:13am
Post #389 of 601
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I agree with you 100%.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 4:21am
Post #390 of 601
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Although I'm definitely not going over to AICN.com to see what they're saying in the talkback, because I can already guess, and they'll say it with some colorful language.
I stopped visiting that place so long ago(for just those reasons), I forgot it was still around. :)
But yeah, my own personal preferences aside(hey I won't pretend I'm not perfectly happy seeing more of Aidan Turner's real face:)) - I was concerned about "general reaction", because I want the films to be good and do well. I'm so glad to see that, mostly, people seem to be getting really excited.
The first place I saw the Fili/Kili pic posted was on ONTD and the reaction was almost completely positive. Yes it was a lot of women commenting but the point is, they were getting excited about seeing the film. And Dean O'Gorman had his fair share of "Oh I've loved him since he was Young Iolaus in Hercules!". The reason was similarly positive for the previous picture releases too(though obviously with less "That dwarf could GET IT!" type comments:))
All the photos taken as a whole, by perhaps slightly less serious fans than here, seem to have had the cumulative effect of exciting people for the film. And really, this is a GOOD thing.
So basically this makes me think that whoever decided to release the photos like this is a marketing genius. :D
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jul 13 2011, 4:23am)
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Phibbus
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 4:24am
Post #391 of 601
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My opinion is that no most of the 12 apostles in films do not look like anything more than a bunch of guys with beards, the directors normally do not do a good job differentiating, which is the opposite of what the original post was saying.
And IMO, there is a dramatic purpose in The Hobbit for at least a few of the dwarves, most particularly Thorin and Fili and Kili but a 2 or 3 of the others as well, to really stand out--so basically at least half the dwarves should be more than just "ah...more dwarves". My point was that "a bunch of guys with beards" generally is enough differentiation to the purpose of the story for the basis of the apostles, with the 5 or so that rise to real importance to be developed more fully.
Distinguishing the looks of each dwarf is all well and good, but I'm still of the opinion that the group en-masse benefits from being confusing and perplexing to the viewer.
But as to actual character development, my main fear is that we wind up getting hit over the head with an unending string of thirteen different variations of sub-par dialog scenes along the lines of what Kangi posted in his "Fili and Kili - audition" thread, all just in order to say: "OK, this is the rakish pair of young brothers;" "These are the mature merchants concerned with getting a return on their investment;" "This one is the rebel who is challenging authority;" etc., etc. That kind of stuff is just filler. It formed the weakest parts of the LotR films, and as much time as it ate up in those, it has the potential to really multiply with thirteen dwarves.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 4:39am
Post #392 of 601
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My opinion is that no most of the 12 apostles in films do not look like anything more than a bunch of guys with beards, the directors normally do not do a good job differentiating, which is the opposite of what the original post was saying.
And IMO, there is a dramatic purpose in The Hobbit for at least a few of the dwarves, most particularly Thorin and Fili and Kili but a 2 or 3 of the others as well, to really stand out--so basically at least half the dwarves should be more than just "ah...more dwarves". My point was that "a bunch of guys with beards" generally is enough differentiation to the purpose of the story for the basis of the apostles, with the 5 or so that rise to real importance to be developed more fully. Distinguishing the looks of each dwarf is all well and good, but I'm still of the opinion that the group en-masse benefits from being confusing and perplexing to the viewer. But as to actual character development, my main fear is that we wind up getting hit over the head with an unending string of thirteen different variations of sub-par dialog scenes along the lines of what Kangi posted in his " Fili and Kili - audition" thread, all just in order to say: "OK, this is the rakish pair of young brothers;" "These are the mature merchants concerned with getting a return on their investment;" "This one is the rebel who is challenging authority;" etc., etc. That kind of stuff is just filler. It formed the weakest parts of the LotR films, and as much time as it ate up in those, it has the potential to really multiply with thirteen dwarves.
I just can't see how the 'group en masse" benefits from confusing the viewer. That might work in the first big dwarf scene but after that, the audience of movie viewers tends to either just ignore what they can't differentiate between or they get annoyed by it and I can't see either of those things benefitting the portrayal of the dwarves.
IMO, unless it's a suspense thriller, it's not a very good idea to "perplex" the viewer too much, least of all in a big budget fantasy adventure film. I can't see how the film would benefit from a gaggle of indistinguishable dwarves, who look about the same, sound about the same and whose ages you can't really tell except if perhaps they have grey hair to make you assume "oh older".
Actually I didn't have a big problem with the dialogue scene Kangi posted for Fili and Kili - it wasn't perfect, definitely could use some polishing and tweeking but I don't think the general idea of it was all that bad. I think all the various groupings of dwarves start out with "this is the rakish young pair" "these are the tight fisted merchants", etc, etc. That's to give people the general idea and then as the story develops they each ot varying degrees develop more unique traits.
I mean parts of this film are meant to be more light. The Empire article and I think the interview with Richard Armitage both mentioned the funny bits and we can't just be laughing AT the dwarves, soemtimes we probably have to laugh with them.
Personally I don't know, just looking at them in pictures, I'm already feeling really fond of all these guys and frankly I don't think I'd feel that way "en masse"
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stormcrow20
Gondor
Jul 13 2011, 4:55am
Post #393 of 601
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I became accustomed to Nori and his hair within a few hours....I even grew to like it. This is going to take quite a bit longer.
I'm fine with younger dwarves. I approve and want a variety of unique dwarves. I can even accept that some will be somewhat attractive. And from the blurry Bag End photo, Thorin is even acceptable. But this just doesn't jive. The only dwarven feature on Fili is the braids, and Kili looks entirely human to me.
If this photo of Kili were released on its own with no name given, and we did not already know which character Aidan Turner is playing....what is there to say he is a dwarf (aside from the ears, perhaps)? Even their costumes seem less dwarvish than the others. Looking at all of them in the combined edit, Fili and Kili just look out of place. All of the previously revealed dwarves have a very dwarvish feel to them, and have uniquely styled beards, yet Fili and Kili have neither. In my eyes, and as established in Jackson's trilogy, well-trimmed goatees and overgrown stubble are features of men. I don't think any dwarf should have a beard shorter than Gandalf the White, at least.
On a more positive note, I like the weapons....
But all things considered, my excitement for The Hobbit is far from tarnished, and I can't wait to see the rest of the gang!
A greenlight from the shadows shall spring!
(This post was edited by stormcrow20 on Jul 13 2011, 5:05am)
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 5:01am
Post #394 of 601
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I just wanted you to know that this is why I signed up to TorN as well. It was (as they say) my density...er destiny. Looks like Kili is one of them there Del Toro Monsters I have heard about in these parts.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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lurtz2010
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 5:10am
Post #395 of 601
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so how are you feeling about these two dwarves Kangi Ska?
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I'd like to know
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Phibbus
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 5:22am
Post #396 of 601
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just can't see how the 'group en masse" benefits from confusing the viewer. That might work in the first big dwarf scene but after that, the audience of movie viewers tends to either just ignore what they can't differentiate between or they get annoyed by it and I can't see either of those things benefitting the portrayal of the dwarves. Again, I'm going to disagree. The first two-thirds of the book consists of similarly chaotic, mass-mayhem scenes and handling of the dwarves: Dazed Bilbo seeing the dwarves sacked one-by-one by trolls; dwarves captured in a confused gaggle by goblins and run through tunnels; mass of dwarves being run up burning fir trees and carried off by eagles; paraded in re-introduction to a bear-man; spun into cocoons by spiders; stuffed into barrels. Bilbo is constantly trying to rise above the muddle that the dwarves present to him, and so should the viewer be. I'm kind of repeating an older post, but the dwarves in these scnenes form a collective, primarily visual character. Most of them can be mere bodies along for the ride, simply because the scenes wouldn't be as appealing with, say, 5 dwarves. We can disagree whether this is cinematically effective or not (I think it is, and I think TH and LotR are much more cinematic as-written than most seem to give them credit for.) To me, effective writing will gradually differentiate the essential dwarves along the way by a few deft strokes within the context of these scenes rather than by attempting to derail the action with tangents just so the viewer can come to know each dwarf personally.
Of course, I know that many feel differently, as you do, and I think the writing will turn out more to your liking than mine.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 5:26am
Post #397 of 601
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I am just thankful no one took to trimming Gandalf's beard again.
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After the damn goatee they gave him for TTT and ROTK, I had a real fear that the boys in hair and makeup might take the more than half century backwards time leap as an excuse to trim his grey beard to half of what it was in Fellowship. So, at this point, if Dwalin sports a blue tinted beard, I will not complain anymore about anything beard related. . . unless an Elf shows up sporting one, or Gandalf's turns out to be much thinner and more scraggly than all the photos suggest. I became accustomed to Nori and his hair within a few hours....I even grew to like it. This is going to take quite a bit longer.
I'm fine with younger dwarves. I approve and want a variety of unique dwarves. I can even accept that some will be somewhat attractive. And from the blurry Bag End photo, Thorin is even acceptable. But this just doesn't jive. The only dwarven feature on Fili is the braids, and Kili looks entirely human to me.
If this photo of Kili were released on its own with no name given, and we did not already know which character Aidan Turner is playing....what is there to say he is a dwarf (aside from the ears, perhaps)? Even their costumes seem less dwarvish than the others. Looking at all of them in the combined edit, Fili and Kili just look out of place. All of the previously revealed dwarves have a very dwarvish feel to them, and have uniquely styled beards, yet Fili and Kili have neither. In my eyes, and as established in Jackson's trilogy, well-trimmed goatees and overgrown stubble are features of men. I don't think any dwarf should have a beard shorter than Gandalf the White, at least.
On a more positive note, I like the weapons....
But all things considered, my excitement for The Hobbit is far from tarnished, and I can't wait to see the rest of the gang!
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jul 13 2011, 5:39am
Post #398 of 601
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I practically worship the ground PJ walks on, and love his trilogy of LotR films, and appreciate & understand the changes he made in those films - but this hurts.
They're just not dwarves. They are shrunken humans, basically. I suppose I'll get over it at some point, but this is genuinely the first time I've ever been disappointed by PJ and Co.
Not cool.
"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Jul 13 2011, 5:40am)
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sador
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 6:13am
Post #399 of 601
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Only according to appendix A of LotR.
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In The Hobbit, Fili is said to be the youngest and have the best eyesight (drawing that boat in Mirkwood)
"Who saw this coming? Just curious if the laws of deus ex machina applied for everyone’s reading experience."
- Milady
The weekly discussion of The Lord of the Rings is back. Join us in the Reading Room for The Battle of the Pelennor Fields!
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Spencissimus
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 6:30am
Post #400 of 601
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Pretend that PJ and the Gang were made to prettify Fili and Kili by WB, and that what we see here is Weta making the best out of a bad situation! I for one don't mind them...in fact I quite like Fili. Kili is ok, and will probably look better on screen.
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willowing
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 6:57am
Post #401 of 601
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Uncle Thorin's little boy's!
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angelocrator
Registered User
Jul 13 2011, 7:02am
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I am actually happy that Weta didn't go the easy route and just did the worn-out D&D design, making dwarves miniature vikings.
Over the last decades, all fantasy authors and artists have just been coying from each other without ever trying to come up with something new in regards to dwarves.
I am really thrilled to see that PJ and his team are bold enough to re-invent dwarves and smash our old, preconcieved notions about how dwarves are supposed to look (and act) like.
Remember that Eomer when he first saw Gimli thought he might be elvish.
After this, dwarves will never be the same again. Mark my words.
(This post was edited by angelocrator on Jul 13 2011, 7:03am)
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Earl
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 13 2011, 7:02am
Post #403 of 601
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Hahah! Your levity is admirable :D //
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Jul 13 2011, 7:06am
Post #404 of 601
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I'm tempted to use "Tur-Ki...with no stuffing!" to remember it. Rather appropriate, IMO. ;) //
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**********************************
NARF
NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens
Jul 13 2011, 7:17am
Post #405 of 601
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Dwarves were pretty much pigeon-holed into stereotypical D&D designs, then with the popularity of Gimli, and the rise of games like World of Warcraft, it seems impossible for dwarves to look at all different from what they have been looking like for years now.
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules."
--Walter Sobchak
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willowing
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 7:20am
Post #406 of 601
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oh no!...I don't see any problems with the nose.
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They could well be aiming to keep the movie real nose job or not.
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Jul 13 2011, 7:24am
Post #407 of 601
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it's not that he's a good lookin' guy...
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... it's that he (aidan turner) looks about as much like a dwarf in that photo as orlando bloom.
there's more to the trasformation into a dwarf than slapping a couple of altered spock ears, not shaving for a few days, throwing on some cosplay d&d gear, and standing in front of a big fan.
i don't care how many good lookin' guys are in the movies (i love that lotr has so many female fans), and i don't want 13 gimlis running around (loved all the different looks of the other dwarves we've seen so far). you can fill the hobbit with beautiful elves and handsome laketown men as far as i care. but a hobbit should look like a hobbit, a goblin should look like a goblin, and a dwarf should look like a dwarf.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 7:54am
Post #408 of 601
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(On Richie Rich's version.....)
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Curiously enough, that does make Kili look much more dwarf-like! Trouble is, it makes Fili look a bit skinny!
OK. I've slept on it, read 17 (17?!!!!) pages of comments here and my reaction is..... er.....
I wish I could see a high res picture as we had with the others, to get a better idea of the costumes.
Fili looks fine to me. Kili looks very good in himself, just nothing like a dwarf, or at least, nothing like I'd imagined a dwarf to be. Don't understand why so many people think he looks like an elf, he's got far too much facial hair for that.
Oh well... I'm not giving up yet, this is just one picture and after the first surprise, I'm getting used to him and once we see him acting, and interacting with the others..... The end is going to be heartbreaking....
Wonder how long before the next dwarves appear. More dwarves.... Three (perhaps?) more dwarves.....
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Owlyross
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 7:55am
Post #409 of 601
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Bill and Ted or Fili and Kili?
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)
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RoseCotton
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 8:31am
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I've found myself comparing Gloin's hair with Kili's -- the latter having caused quite a stir; the former, barely a murmur. Yet how different are they really?
Both dwarves seem to like their hair long, and they like to wear it loose. By 2011 standards, Gloin's hair doesn't look especially 'attractive', although, if these movies were being made during a 'big hair' era (somewhere between the bouffant '60s, through the Bee Gees '70s into the new-romantic '80s), I wonder whether some might consider it to be too 'straight out of the salon', much in the way that some are saying about Kili's hair now (not helped by the breeze-teased look in the only photo we have).
I appreciate that Gloin has a lot more classic-dwarf about him due to prosthetics and general build, but, just to focus on the hair, how substantial is the difference between Gloin and Kili really? Gloin is Barry Gibb, Kili is Jennifer Aniston -- but then, if Jennifer Aniston had been a celebrity during the '60's or '70s, she'd have probably been Barry Gibb, too.
(Here's the 'dwarves so far' image posted earlier to aid comparison: http://i51.tinypic.com/2nlbt3s.jpg.)
Don't know really where I was going with this -- only to wonder out loud why Kili's hair has caused much more noise than the no-noise that Gloin's caused, other than being viewed by our 'standards of the day' eyes.
(This post was edited by RoseCotton on Jul 13 2011, 8:35am)
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Garfeimao
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 8:36am
Post #411 of 601
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The only reason there is so much debate on this is simply that not only do most fans think of Gimli as the very definition of a Dwarf, but the filmmakers painted themselves into a corner when they made the 7 Dwarf Lords and the other Dwarfs at the Council of Elrond look exactly the same as Gimli.
It is unfortunate that there wasn't a little more variety then, because we would all be more open minded if Dwarves didn't already appear to have a set uniformity to them established in PJ's Middle-earth.
So it appears they are trying to break that mold, and I kind of like the notion that maybe the appearances will show a generational progression of sorts. The older, more senior members of the party will resemble Gimli, especially daddy dearest and uncle, and some of the other older dwarves will most likely also appear similar in size and look. But we've also seen a dramatic departure with Nori and Ori, while Dori looks halfway inbetween. Could this variety be age related, or job related, or clan related? Not sure, but maybe we'll get a bit of story devoted to these differences. After all, Bilbo will be on the road for a long time with these Dwarves, I can't imagine he won't ask questions about this weapon or that hair cut, or whatever.
And this thread has been amazing to watch, can't wait to see what happens after Thorin's big reveal.
Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,
Garfeimao
The orange stripey One
Cruise to Middle-earth
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Ececheira
Bree
Jul 13 2011, 8:40am
Post #412 of 601
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I really love these dwarves - especially AT as Kili and I love even more that they are challenging some people's views of what a dwarf should look like.
Bring on Thorin Oakenshield, I say!!!
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 8:45am
Post #413 of 601
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I think it's just the 'shock of the new', really....
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... on the line-up of them all together they start to become 'these are the dwarves' and not just 'oh my goodness!'.
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Bound
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 9:11am
Post #414 of 601
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The only reason there is so much debate on this is simply that not only do most fans think of Gimli as the very definition of a Dwarf, but the filmmakers painted themselves into a corner when they made the 7 Dwarf Lords and the other Dwarfs at the Council of Elrond look exactly the same as Gimli.
It is unfortunate that there wasn't a little more variety then, because we would all be more open minded if Dwarves didn't already appear to have a set uniformity to them established in PJ's Middle-earth. No matter what I feel about the picture, I think you are spot on. In terms of Middle Earth Dwarves, most people will be expecting 13 Gimli's because we've had no indication that Dwarves can look any different. Other people have mentioned it here - the sterotype of Dwarves across fantasy has pretty much been stuck in the realms of Gimli.. or something like miniture Vikings (I recall someone wrote that above)... I guess at the end of the day with 13 Dwarves on screen - it will help to have certain things make them stand out. This doesn't ruin the movies - at least not for me anyways
The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed
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Merowen
The Shire
Jul 13 2011, 9:18am
Post #415 of 601
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perhaps the younger the dwarf, the smaller the beard. After all, both have a beard in the photo, Kili's beard just smaller.
I do like the look of Fili, it feels right to me. However I don't exactly like the look of Kili, he doesn't look very dwarvish (not because of the beard), so slim that he looks taller! I guess we only know for sure when we see them in action.
Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'.
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TheWhiteRider
Bree
Jul 13 2011, 9:30am
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are fine with me as long as they dont say stupid stuff like "It's the Dwarves that go swimming with little, hairy women"
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jul 13 2011, 9:36am
Post #417 of 601
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in lotr we travelled across middle earth but only visited one dwarf realm that was actually some kind of tomb (Moria), instead of being too much critic i suggest take things like this:
we are not watching some promo photos, we actually are travelling around middle earth again in another direction we haven´t seen before, is just that we have found the party of dwarves sonner than we expected, not the movies, we are actually on the road ahead to Erebor wich is the home of this race and all his different clans, imagine we had saw the hobbit first, then looking at gimli it should looked right because we had known gloin before,
orcs of moria looked different, uruks were different, but all were orcs after all, and im not toling about the age, wich clearly makes a difference, maybe i feel we should wait to see the party togheter, not that photo of the silouetes of 13 gimlis following gandalf, ah , and fili looks cool
love!!!!!!!!!
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 13 2011, 9:53am
Post #418 of 601
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Can someone with Photoshop magic put Gandalf in the line-up??!
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For size reference... Here's a pic if you need one... http://www.theargonath.cc/characters/gandalf/pictures/gandalf28.jpg
Thanks!
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 10:14am
Post #419 of 601
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Still no hi-res picture? I want to see the details!
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 10:18am
Post #420 of 601
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Everyone here seems too Hasty.... "to deal out Death and Judgement?"
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Okay opinions are fine , but HONESTLY...I'm prefectly fine to just sit back and wait for all of the next Reveals...Thisn't looking like a Cartoon-version of TH anymore.
For all we know? these Shots are just of our Dwaves in their Final "Battle of the 5 Armies gear!"
after they have raided the Lonely Mountain when Smaug is no more
wearing their Final WarBattle Dress?...So that said..
they could be ALL Canon-dressed, Color-cordinated HOODS like the Book, at BagEnd...They could have two sets of Clothes packed in their bags (maybe..you Think?) on their ponys? I tend to think if they came marching through Hobbiton dressed like? that Half of the Halflings of Hobbiton would be Banging on the DOOR, feeling pretty threathed, Riots in the Streets?
I don't trust that shot in Empire MAG...it is a composite...not the Final version (was it a marketing diversion tactic?) Maybe their wardobe evolves as they get more and More Filty...cause none got to take a Shower in Mirkwood?, (even though Bombur did take a Bath,... and look that, did to him?) If they showed up at Thandrial's Halls dressed like that,
I'd throw them into Deepest Dungeon TOO! ......xoxoOB
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 10:42am
Post #422 of 601
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... one tiny detail which I think I can see, by enlarging the picture and lightening it, is that Kili seems to be wearing something blue on the front of his costume, also on the shoulder just below his ear. It made me wonder if there's more colour on the costumes than we're seeing in these dark photos:
Best detachable party hood, perhaps!
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 10:43am
Post #423 of 601
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Many thanks for your defence through the night
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My original comment was knocked out as a kind of spontaneous remark without the intention that it was going to create so much debate. I'm wholly with you on this though Phibbus- there is very little reason for excessive delineation between dwarves that will just chew up screentime. Personally if it was me adapting this film (and i know that few on this board would approve of that) i would be tempted to break the dwarves down by families with a single spokesman for their opinion in any given scene (such a spokesman may change from one scene to another, but whoever it is will speak for the group). Essentially, the only really 'dramatic' dwarves are those who are important to the plot or who have been referenced in the prior film, so obviously Thorin, Balin (given both his significance as 'second in command' and for his significance from FotR's Moria sequence), Gloin (being Gimli's father) and Fili and Kili (though to be honest in terms of unique characters, they only really count as one- they come as a pair almost without exception during the story). Ori and Bombur have the potential to stand out as individuals, but they don't need to take up great lengths of dramatic time, and it is pretty obvious what you use to identify them- Bombur is notably obese (being a major part of his role as comic relief) and Ori is a bit of a nerd by dwarvish standards, both things that can be done with minimal dialogue through their behavior. Dori, Nori, Bifur, Bofur, Dwalin and Oin do not need much in the way of personal identification- they do need a line or two just to give them a bit of identity but fundamentally they are filler or the 'vox pop' of the company- the audience does not really need to be able to tell which is which (just like they don't have to be able to tell which is which in the apostles).
While i didn't make a point of noting it during my recent skim read of The Hobbit, Tolkien certainly does not overburden us with details on characters. Beyond their initial introductions (and even then he doesn't necessarily identify each one individually, particularly when they start arriving in groups of two and three) only Thorin, Balin, Dori and Bombur actually get individual lines (Fili might get a couple- especially around the boat incident, but generally they like the other 'power pair' of Oin and Gloin are characterised 'as a team'). Therefore i do hope that PJ won't get too bogged down in making sure each and every one of them gets equal development- there is a distinct pecking order in terms of who gets the lions share and PJ would be a fool not to recognise the wisdom in that.
Dr Death
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 11:13am
Post #424 of 601
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.. we don't know that they haven't done exactly what you say, or something like it. Most of the character delineation is in the writing and we know nothing about that at all. I can't imagine that they're going to want to slow the action down by giving each dwarf a developed character study, backstory and so on. It's a balance between having an undistinguished mass bumbling along behind Bilbo and Gandalf and having 13 individuals we can at least tell apart.
In the early days there was speculation here about how many dwarves would be cast. Surely not the full 13? Would some be female? and so on. Well, they surprised all the doubters by sticking to the book and casting 13 male dwarves. Then they had to decide what they would look like. They could have gone 'off the peg' and had them all roughly the same, with different coloured hoods but they've gone for 13 individuals. That still doesn't tell us how far each individual dwarf will be distinguished in the writing but I'm sure some will play a bigger part than others and we will get to know the ones we need to know, as and when we need to know them.
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TheWhiteRider
Bree
Jul 13 2011, 11:26am
Post #425 of 601
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Isn't it too soon for releasing these images ???
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I mean there is a good 1 and a half year left until the release of the first film !!!
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 11:37am
Post #426 of 601
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It's not that they're attractive that's the problem
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Both Liv Tyler and Miranda Otto are attractive women but they're hardly the kind of women who push everybody's buttons. I think Liv Tyler is a terrific actress and her performance in LotR really did make me sit up and take notice of her, but her face is a bit long and horsey for my tastes, and as for Miranda Otto, while she looks lovely as herself, she was a bit hard-featured and po-faced as Eowyn to illicit any kind of hubba hubba response. Being as it is set in the days of modern make-up (and the film following by and large) Lord of the Rings really isn't the place men go to get their rocks off. On the other hand, there's a lot to recommend it to women- in Middle-earth there are men for all tastes- tall and slender, short and stocky or anything in between, rugged men's men or smooth ladies' men. Pretty boys and bits of rough, lean and mean or comforting and cuddly. Knights in armour or rebels with causes. Emotional wounds make the ladies swoon. All wrapped up in the romantic setting of beautiful scenery and spiritual fulfillment.
In Lord of the Rings such diversity of thinking woman's totty was fine- i found it greatly amusing how each year more and more heart-throb material would emerge from cultures new because it fell more or less in line with what Tolkien wrote- of course Aragorn was going to be dark moody and handsome, of course Boromir would be like a modern day military officer, reflecting on the horrors of war and struggling to cope with less simple more political matters. Of course Legolas would be tall, blonde and pretty. There wasn't an issue and i was perfectly happy with that.
With The Hobbit however there is not that same range of totty and i didn't initially see any reason why people would try to shoe-horn some in. There were a couple of roles which would be acceptable for some eye-candy- Bard and Thranduil, and Bilbo would probably not be wholly uneasy on the eye (i even endorsed Colin Firth's assignment to the role, knowing he could play the part fantastically and still bring in the ladies from his pride and prejudice days), but the dwarves were ultimately not going to be a place where those with modern generic preferences would get their kicks (that said if the homosexual bear community latched onto it, fair play- that's their prerogative- there's something for everyone). However, now we've seen the finished job on Kili this does feel like a betrayal. I can see no earthly reason other than cynically appeasing the lowest common denominator to abandon every shred of the dwarven aesthetic. I would happily go chasing through the books again for the evidence to confirm Tolkien's depictions of dwarves as being more than just small humans in appearance but it would not do any good. One of the first things i learnt about philosophy and arguing is that a person who refuses to acknowledge grounds on which they can be proved wrong can never be proved right, and the reaction of some females to this picture confirm my suspicions i had from the moment when all these willowy young men were announced. How about you go chasing through the books to confirm your hypothesis instead? If you can find me one example of a dwarf being described (without qualification- i.e. not to other dwarves but to human or elven females) as handsome maybe i'll soften....
Dr Death
(This post was edited by Altaira on Jul 13 2011, 7:20pm)
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 11:39am
Post #427 of 601
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Because Richard Armitage is a modern, rakish, tall, dark, stubbly type too.
Dr Death
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 11:44am
Post #428 of 601
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Hopefully they have the wisdom not to take it personally
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I have a great deal of time for Aidan Turner- he seemed like a perfectly amiable and not in the least bit vain bloke in the press-conference. It's not ultimately his fault that 'the powers that be' decided to capitalise on his inadvertent good looks and rob him of all dwarvishness. Perhaps he might have objected, but ultimately it's a case of 'PJ's the boss' so you can't blame him for not protesting too loudly when they shaved down his mighty beard and decided Kili should have Sandra Bullock's hair. That doesn't soften my stance on the decisions made about the appearance of his character.
Dr Death
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RaoulJ
Rivendell
Jul 13 2011, 11:50am
Post #429 of 601
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Couldn't say it better. I agree.
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Thanks for your insights, Sometimes I skip texts but I always read yours. Thanks!
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 12:00pm
Post #430 of 601
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Perhaps not the worst case in terms of everything that could happen
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I mean technically there are countless things that could have happened- they could have been played as actual children, or female, or removed altogether or been ice-skating mongeese, but in terms of the 'worst of all possible worlds' given that they were included and the roles were cast with men who were out of puberty, this comes pretty high on the list of what could go wrong. In fact i'm not sure i wouldn't have preferred a pubescent Fili and Kili- if they were kids with weird kind of patchy beards and puppy fat, at least that would have been a take on the youth of them, instead we have got the most generic hunk in a parka you could imagine. It's pretty catastrophic (within it's context) if you ask me.
Dr Death
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens
Jul 13 2011, 12:02pm
Post #431 of 601
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I always enjoy reading your posts bud...
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...but I can see why some of the ladies get their feathers ruffled, especially with some of the gender generalizations that you throw out, like the ones in your last paragraph. I guess I mean to say that if you want your opinions to be taken more seriously, then you have to be careful what your saying, and know your audience. I know I have to watch myself sometimes too, I forget where I'm at once in a while. It happens to us all.
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules."
--Walter Sobchak
(This post was edited by Maiarmike on Jul 13 2011, 12:04pm)
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 12:12pm
Post #432 of 601
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No point beating around the bush when you can see straight through it
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I hope people who read my posts appreciate that i am desperately trying (both for the sake of my argument and with the utmost sincerity) to offend as few people as possible, but there are times when you have to press your accusations through the denial. If someone is in court and you lay the accusation of murder in front of them, if they think they can get away with it of course they will deny it. Not to liken fangirls (i.e. in this case those who defend the 'dwarfiness' of Kili's look) to murderers, but in terms of murdering a fictional character they're a bit like a bent jury
Dr Death
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dave_lf
Gondor
Jul 13 2011, 12:18pm
Post #433 of 601
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I mean there is a good 1 and a half year left until the release of the first film !!!
They probably want to make sure they release them officially and on their own terms before they leak out on their own. Plus, if they were trying to keep the dwarves' appearances secret, it would be extremely difficult to release any photos or videos from the set. Now the door is open!
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Estel78
Tol Eressea
Jul 13 2011, 12:37pm
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They probably wanted to release something around Comic-Con...
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They might show some more at the convention, i don't think anything major, though. That will have to wait till next year.
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 13 2011, 12:40pm
Post #435 of 601
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Wait... so Estrogen Island and Testosterone Tower are real forum events?
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I thought they were simply terms used to describe the reaction of certain members to the cast. Well, the more you know...
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 13 2011, 12:44pm
Post #436 of 601
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O'Gorman is the one with Golden hair?
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Works for me.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 12:55pm
Post #437 of 601
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Not sure how far 'trying to offend' comes into it....
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... isn't it more a case of 'Sorry if anyone is offended, but....' ? [Meaning, I'm going to do it anyway...]
Thing is, DrDeath, you've made it pretty clear how you feel on these matters and it always seems to come down to... 'women are brainless' > 'anyone who disagrees with me is brainless' >'ergo: anyone who disagrees with me is probably a woman so need not be taken seriously' . 'Fangirl' used as a term of abuse towards anyone who doesn't share your opinion - in this case on Kili - is just plain rude. Do you know that all the posters who've said they like Kili's appearance are female? Or that all those who don't are male? Or that the only possible reason they can have for reacting positively is that they fancy him? You don't - you can't, so why do it?
This is probably pointless but I'll say it anyway - there are posters out there less obdurate than you. It doesn't have to come down to whether you fancy the actor or not. There are other good, rational criteria for judging the character designs. For me, in that photograph, Kili doesn't look like a dwarf. At least, not like any dwarf I've ever imagined - I can't presume to speak for the rest of creation. I doubt very much if he's anything like the Kili Tolkien imagined either.
But, he is Kili in film of 'The Hobbit', or he will be when the time comes. Whatever any of us think of it, however differently we might have chosen to do it, he is the Kili we'll see on screen. We can either gnash our teeth about that or we can look for reasons to accept the idea and get used to it. I choose the second option. Not because I fancy him [you may find this hard to believe but we don't automatically fall for anything in trousers. Or in this case, very large boots.] Just because I've waited for these films a long time and I want to go on enjoying the wait. And I know that this is only one photograph - so much is going to depend on the writing and the acting, about which we know nothing.
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ShireHorse
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 12:56pm
Post #438 of 601
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Dr D, it always comes back to Richard Armitage
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Because Richard Armitage is a modern, rakish, tall, dark, stubbly type too.
Dr Death
Is he? Well, perhaps in the extracts you've been watching. But, as I've already mentioned, he's a character actor and doesn't always look that way. I notice you passed no comment on his appearance in the latest PJ video where he has very short brown hair, a greying beard, a big nose and pointy ears. (Not many prosthetics needed there, then! And not exactly a pretty boy.) The following with thanks to RANet (and apologies if it doesn't work, but you know the shot I mean.)
http://www.richardarmitagenet.com/images/gallery/Hobbit/2ndVideoBlog/album/Video2-RA03.jpg
And although I'm a follower of Being Human, I'm not too sure about AT as Kili either for all the reasons that others have given. But I expect he'll grow on me because I always give people a chance.
(This post was edited by ShireHorse on Jul 13 2011, 12:57pm)
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Sunflower
Valinor
Jul 13 2011, 1:18pm
Post #439 of 601
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It makes sense. Teenage rebellion! Knowing it would tick his parents' generation off mightily, he adopts an Elvish look. (Be interesting to note if Elrond will have any visible reaction written into the script.)
Now I wish that Kili would survive. He'd def. not be one of the wifeless Dwarves....
Well, it seems we are in for a cinematic first: a hottie Dwarf. Wonder what The Professor's reaction was to this pic! He's probably sitting up there in Heaven smoking a pipe, with a bemused twinkle in his eye
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redgiraffe
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 1:30pm
Post #440 of 601
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I'm slowly starting to come around to them while seeing them in the lineup of the other dwarves. The shock factor was kind of a big deal for me but I think when I look at the pic they slowly look more and more like part of the group
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle
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redgiraffe
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 1:30pm
Post #441 of 601
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I'm slowly starting to come around to them while seeing them in the lineup of the other dwarves. The shock factor was kind of a big deal for me but I think when I look at the pic they slowly look more and more like part of the group
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle
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Gandalf'sMother
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 1:48pm
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...bad fanfiction. We are talking about a film based on a book by JRR Tolkien, right?
I don't love PJ's style, but I don't think he'll take the concept that far. Turner will certainly be a little rebellious, vain and immature, but to play him as the equivalent of a modern teen would be disastrous.
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Gandalf'sMother
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 1:52pm
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And does a beard automatically make one unattractive?
I haven't heard many women complain about a bearded Clooney or Sean Connery, for example...Why should they not accept a bearded Turner?
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Laerasyn
Bree
Jul 13 2011, 1:53pm
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To me, this shows the real progression of the dwarf lifespan if you will. I could totally see young dwarves starting out fairly "normal" looking, just small(and to be honest the only thing we really know about Tolkien's dwarves is they have beards and they are short and kind of stocky, other than that there is no reason to think they aren't as individual as humans are and some humans are sort of squat and ugly and some are tall and beautiful and some are small and beautiful and some are tall and ugly, etc, etc, etc).
Aule was after originally making them to be similar to Iluvatar's creations, IIRC - Elves and Men(actually didn't dwarves come before Men? I can't remember but I supposed the Valar knew men were coming some day by that point), he didn't set out to make squat little rough guys, they just didn't turn out quite how he planned them too, because he didn't have Iluvatar's abilities. So I'd imagine they might look alright to start and then sort of start looking more stereotypically "dwarvish" as they age.
To be honest I tend to think that the Gimli-like dwarves are probably considered the hotties of the dwarf world and while we may think "Oh look at Kili and Fili, how adorable" they are probably thought of as being not great looking by OTHER dwarves(at least not yet, they are, at this point in their lives, basically little more than teenagers) . Sort of like Marilyn from The Munsters. LOL (If anyone hasn't seen it, it's a comedy from the 60's based on the idea of Frankenstein's monster, Dracula, dracula's daughter being a family with the monster and the daughter's son being a wolf boy - they have a young niece who lives with them named Marilyn who is very pretty blonde girl, to human eyes, but they are always feeling bad for her because, to their eyes, she's very plain. :) )
Basically I could even see it being played for a bit of a joke, about how the "goodlooking" dwarves are actually "ugly".
Though I guess maybe this explains all that ribbing Aidan Turner took about "sex appeal" in that charity video. :)
I actually really like that idea about the "pretty" dwarves being considered ugly by dwarf standards. I can see it being played for quite a few laughs; it fits with PJ's humour style. Marilyn Munster indeed!
I also anticipate many jokes about their lack of proper beards.
'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 2:12pm
Post #446 of 601
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I have not got anything against women, not in the slightest, not in the least, not in any fashion what so ever.
it always seems to come down to... 'women are brainless' > 'anyone who disagrees with me is brainless' >'ergo: anyone who disagrees with me is probably a woman so need not be taken seriously'
Such a misinterpretation of my attitudes are tantamount to slander and i find such an interpretation as deeply offensive, possibly even a willful misinterpretation in the point i am trying to make. Yes, it is a point about the female reaction to these pictures, but that does not mean i am tarring the whole female race with the accusation- there are plenty of women who have posted here that hold opinions that i agree with. However, the vast majority of those who have responded positively to this (as opposed to negatively or with concern) have been female (according to their profiles) and have without any irony it seems defended the decision purely on the grounds of how it appeals to their particular predilections. I apologise if allowing that kind of public sexual appreciation is considered essential to feminism, but if it's any consolation i find it just as repugnant in the 'lads mag' culture. Women have been fighting for years to be taken as more than just sexual objects and yet now it seems based on the reaction of this forum that they are doing exactly the same to men, basing their opinions purely on how he looks with the rather cop-out justification of 'well if his performance matches what does it matter?' it's the distaff equivalent of a man saying he reads playboy for the articles, and frankly neither washes with me.
Just to prove that i'm not barking up a non-existant tree, let me furnish you with a few quotes from this thread:
They look so lovable (Fili) and downright gorgeous (Kili) --- quite undwarvish in my opinion but cute as anything (hah, now I'm outing myself as a female not impervious to male charm, right ) look like they could be in Mens Vogue of Middle-Earth! Look at Kili's hair! A bit high on the shampoos and conditioners are we? All in all a very good I never thought hobbits or dwarves are the type of race you would drool over...was I wrong. Top marks to PJ and co for making something I thought wasnt possible....sexy dwarves. (And I freely admit, my X chromosomes are enjoying themselves very much right now. ROWR! ) Kili is more 'outside the box' than some of the others, it doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I'm glad. I was expecting two hunky dwarves, and would actually have been disappointed to see something else I wouldn't mind giving Kili a feel-i Can't wait for Thorin Hunkenshield. I actually quite like these two, and would like to thank PJ for not carrying out the crime of putting Aidan Turner in heavy prosthetics. if they are also easy on the eyes from a human female point of view, I can live with that. Sorry, I'm going to pull out the girl card too and say 'Hubba Hubba' here. Meanwhile those of us who don't care as much can say "gee, that's one hot dwarf!"(depending on one's personal favorite:))
Those are just the most oblique, there were many more inferences and nudge, nudge, wink winks that are not so easy to pack into a quote. It is plain however that the majority of authors of posts loudly in favour have been female, some of them openly confessing their bias based on their preference (as i have shown above) with varying degrees of sincerity. Now, there have been men in favour of the choice (the majority of whom i assume are heterosexual), and a fair number of people both male and female who are as yet undecided or ambivalent, and equally there are a great number of women who have expressed their opposition, but is it wholly unfair to state that the majority of those who reacted positively to the picture were female and this was due at least in part to the minimal work done in terms of padding out his build and his face? As i've quoted above, at least one person considers it a 'crime' to put Aidan Turner in heavy prosthetics.
The sole arguments in defence of Kili's look other than the thrill of the fact Aidan Turner hasn't been turned into what we know as a dwarf is the fact it offers 'variety' (which i would argue can be achieved in other ways, and in any case the break-down of humanoid types into the short and stocky dwarves, average humans and lithe and beautiful elves limits that variety from the start) and the ease of identification (despite the fact people never had any issue recognising one stubble-clad, shoulder-length haired grubby human in armour from another). My powers of deduction therefore lead me to the conclusion that the primary motivating factor behind this decision was to make Kili palatable to a large part of the female (and a part of the male) audience who would otherwise be put off watching a film about thirteen pint-sized hairy men. Is it sexist of me to come to that conclusion based on the evidence available, or can we drop the slanderous idea that i consider women an inferior breed?
Dr Death
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 2:28pm
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Yes, he does look a little worse for wear there, but he's still not exactly an aging mastiff of a man- the hair isn't greying as far as i can see (it's cut short to facilitate a wig but it's hardly thinning or even notably receding) and there are a couple of crow's feet around the eyes, but then he's plainly knackered having just shot for a number of months with very early calls with prosthetics and adhesive ravaging your complexion each day. He's still a 39 year old man with strong linear features and not a jowl or sign of gravity in sight. Besides, under all those prosthetics it doesn't matter how *he* looks.
And for the record, i brought up Richard Armitage because the person was talking about kili's uncle- ie, Thorin, and yeah, you could say there's a resemblance. Let's wait and see how Thorin looks in his glamour shot before we start calling a tired Richard as evidence that Thorin will look as battered as his book counterpart (complete with failing eyesight).
Dr Death
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Annael
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 2:30pm
Post #448 of 601
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I always figured the members of TORN to be more the type to value visual authenticity over sex appeal.
You haven't seen the Estrogen Island and Testosterone Tower threads on "Off-Topic," then . . . we swim in both the deep and shallow ends of the pool!
The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
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NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Annael
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 2:36pm
Post #449 of 601
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"Some dwarves are just really, really good-looking" . . .
The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Annael
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 2:47pm
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the terms "murdering a fictional character" do sound like something a lawyer would say to rile up the jury. When the LOTR movies came out, the equivalent phrase was "raping the book." I argued then and I argue now that the book remains intact, as do the characters. You can still pick it up and read it and it's all there like it was before. All Peter Jackson has done in both cases is present us with an interpretation of both. Just as all the hundreds of "Tolkien artists" have done with their drawings. You may not like his interpretation, and that is fine. The only interpretation any of us is ever going to love completely is our own, and alas, making a movie (or in my case, even just drawing what I see) is out of the question. So we either have to watch PJ's movie and be a bit frustrated when he veers away from what we think he "should" have done, or choose not to see it at all.
I hope you don't mean that someone else's ideas have the power to destroy your own.
The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
(This post was edited by Annael on Jul 13 2011, 2:48pm)
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 3:03pm
Post #451 of 601
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Well where to start. How about "Once upon a time".
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After Pete's statement about sexy Dwarves and seeing the tease of Thorin's image I thought that a short dark and handsome dwarf was a good. possibility. I am not really surprised. I knew that there was going to be one heck of a blow out here on the boards if it came along. Most everyone expected variations on the theme of Gimli and really never tried to think of Dwarves as a real culture with a population with genetic variability and therefore a range of appearances. Kili might just be the ugly Dwarf from the Dwarve's perspective. (Lets hope he grows out of it, maybe a few battle scars will help...)
I see the strategy of pushing the boundaries of expectations generally a good approach to art. It creates something fresh and new and drags us out of the doldrums of our existence. I see this approach in Chris Nolan's "Dark Knight" and J.J. Abrams "Star TreK", both of which I am extremely fond. I think PJ is going for a reboot of Middle-earth. I think Guillermo del Toro inspired him, pulled him out of the idea that these two films will just be remakes of The Lord of the Rings. I was near convinced of this when Peter went with 3-D. The choice of a cutting edge format was a big signal that The Hobbit was not going to be a comfortable match-up with with its sequels (that happened to get filmed first). Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the framing devise was shot in 2-D and it go to 3-D once the story hits Munchkin...er. Hobbiton. But that is an aside.
You asked what I thought of the two new Dwarves. Well I must say I was suprised and Kili's look does not align with my preconceived notions coming from both the book and Peter's Lord of the Rings. It is not Tolkien but is Tolkien re-imagined. I will not be a naysayer at this point. It is far too early to tell how this will all end up. I will say one thing. The production has not been boring so far.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Alientraveller
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 3:08pm
Post #452 of 601
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Well I'm surprised as anyone by Kili
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TVNZ's picked up on the controversy. http://tvnz.co.nz/entertainment-news/hot-hobbit-pics-spark-debate-4301729 But I do believe Kili won't look as airbrushed as he does in this photograph given PJ's grimy style, and will look more proportionate on screen. I agree with everyone Kili's looks could be a source of humour, with Fili jibing about ugly he is and how he needs to grow a beard.
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jul 13 2011, 3:18pm
Post #453 of 601
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Even with all of this fun teasing, my hope that the performances are so good that the costuming is only a small part of what makes the actors convincing as dwarves. And even with that, the costuming is pretty good. It's mostly just Kili's hair that bugs me.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 3:22pm
Post #454 of 601
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I have one suggestion...Chill.
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The best defense is not always a great offense. Besides being on the offensive is bound to offend someone.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 3:25pm
Post #455 of 601
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Now let's take some of your quotes out of context and see how well they fare...
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One of the first things i learnt about philosophy and arguing is that a person who refuses to acknowledge grounds on which they can be proved wrong can never be proved right Not to liken fangirls (i.e. in this case those who defend the 'dwarfiness' of Kili's look) to murderers, but in terms of murdering a fictional character they're a bit like a bent jury Women are much more convincing liars than men and have a remarkable capacity to raise their hormones to the level of poetry but here it is wholly transparent. i think anyone who tries to defend Kili's look is either a Estrogen Islander or a contrarian. Emotional wounds make the ladies swoon. I can see no earthly reason other than cynically appeasing the lowest common denominator to abandon every shred of the dwarven aesthetic and the response of some women on this (yourself included) and their attempts to defend this just ring so phoney it's infuriating.
My LiveJournal
My Costuming Site
TORn's Costume Discussions Archive
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sphdle1
Gondor
Jul 13 2011, 3:26pm
Post #456 of 601
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Not a lot of it, but a short beard or really good scruff.
sphdle1
"You shall not pass!"
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Annael
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 3:26pm
Post #457 of 601
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I see the Cartesian bias that abstract rationality and pure ideas are to be preferred over anything that actually engages with life. Which, many have argued, does in fact stem from a problem with the feminine - or rather, those aspects of human character that Cartesian dualism insist are feminine, even though men and women have them equally (you're not saying men do not respond viscerally to attractive women now are you?).
It's not actually an either/or situation. It is possible to be intelligent AND have emotions and enjoy the physical side of life.
The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
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NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jul 13 2011, 3:28pm
Post #458 of 601
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I think you did a pretty good job trying not to generalize too much to offend.
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Women are much more convincing liars than men and have a remarkable capacity to raise their hormones to the level of poetry but here it is wholly transparent.
This one statement, however, you may want to adjust, as generalizing women to be liars is pretty harsh. A good rule of thumb is to say "many women" or "some women." (I'm just saying this as a friendly suggestion, by the way, because I could see you were trying to tone it down, and I very much appreciate that.)
Please keep in mind that some of us women aren't as interested in the dwarves being handsome as we are interested in them being convincing dwarves. I'd like to see Turner be more dwarfish myself, and at this point, I'm hoping that his performance will be what makes him a dwarf, because clearly, at the very least, his hair isn't doing it for me.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 3:28pm
Post #459 of 601
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the terms "murdering a fictional character" do sound like something a lawyer would say to rile up the jury. When the LOTR movies came out, the equivalent phrase was "raping the book."
Such burning and passionate (yet trite and cliched) phrases are vitally necessary to establish that one is A Real Fan. We'll be seeing a lot more rape and murder as we get more Real Fans on the forum in the coming months. It's not going to be pretty.
I argued then and I argue now that the book remains intact, as do the characters.
Narf!
I hope you don't mean that someone else's ideas have the power to destroy your own.
DD does have a point. Like Ben Kenobi said, the minds of certain types of people are easily influenced. That's what Hitler did. And we don't want to be like Hitler, do we?
(And with that Reductio Ad Hitlerum, Godwin's Law is invoked!)
******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.
Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?
So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.
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Annael
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 3:33pm
Post #460 of 601
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I you passionately.
Solely for your mind, of course, you degenerate old NARF!
The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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esheming
Bree
Jul 13 2011, 3:34pm
Post #461 of 601
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They all look just fine to me...
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...considering that film is a visual medium and that the characters must be visually different from one another to a certain extent. I remember thinking that the Hobbits of LOTR didn't look very hobbitty at the time (Frodo, Merry and Pippin are too slender, Martin Freeman's Bilbo is technically too slender as well, their clothes aren't as described in the novels etc etc) ~ but that didn't bother me a bit once the film started. To be honest, the first time I saw 'Fellowship', my heart sank when Viggo uttered his first sentences as Aragorn. By the end of the film, I couldn't have imagined anyone else ever playing Aragorn!
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 3:34pm
Post #462 of 601
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I love pair. They're great. Especially Turner. Who is hawt!!
And I'm a guy!
(I love being the outlier in someone else's data!!)
******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.
Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?
So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 3:35pm
Post #463 of 601
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Your understanding is correct. /
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******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.
Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?
So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jul 13 2011, 3:38pm
Post #464 of 601
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There's a difference in how women admire men and how men admire women. A lot of what these women said was jokingly, and to be silly. It's fun to be silly, and it doesn't mean we all prefer a guy to be good looking over convincing in his role.
If you ever notice the difference between a strip club with female strippers and one with male strippers, you can see some of this. Often, the strip clubs with female strippers are filled with men who stare more and seem to take it all more seriously. Strip clubs with male strippers are more often filled with giggling women, who are just out having fun and not taking it seriously at all.
Testosterone plays a huge role in thinking about sex. We all have it, men and women. But men have it more, and it can make sex and the imperative to have it a much stronger, more serious instinct. In women, it's not so strong, and we think about sex much less often per day. So when we talk about attractiveness in men, there's less of that imperative. And I think this is where many men get annoyed, frustrated, confused. What we mean as being fun, admiring, but silly at the same time, men can often misinterpret as us being more serious.
I'm sure some of these women are being serious, but most of these quotes you pulled out sound like playful joking to me.
And mods, if there's anything I need to adjust here to fit better to board standards, please let me know, I'm happy to adjust.
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Hanzkaz
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 3:41pm
Post #465 of 601
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BILBO: All I said to Thorin was that maybe Dwarves and Elves should get along better - and he threw his axe at me!
BALIN: That might have been a mistake.
BILBO: Why? What's he got against Elves, anyway?
BALIN: You didn't hear this from me, but a few years back there was a, let's say, silly, rumour going around concerning his sister and a certain Elf. It was completely unfounded, of course.
BILBO: Of course. (Looks thoughtfully in Kili's direction)
BALIN: Bilbo?
BILBO: Yes?
BALIN: Don't stare.
(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Jul 13 2011, 3:42pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 3:43pm
Post #466 of 601
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About what I was thinking. This is going to be the Legolas Dwarf!
Can't wait to see him shield-surfing down the stairs of Erebor, or climbing up the side of a huge warg, killing the Goblin riders, then sliding down its snout.
This is going to be so cool!!
(BTW, how'd somebody so reasonable and level-headed as you get into this discussion?)
******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.
Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?
So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 3:47pm
Post #467 of 601
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Still, previously my images of Dwarves consisted of the archetypes from Disney, D&D, and WOW. Nice to have my mind expanded away from decades long cliches.
I was so worried about 13 identical little Dwarves running around with only colored hoods to distinguish them. This is looking better and better!
******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.
Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?
So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 13 2011, 3:52pm
Post #468 of 601
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Women being better liars does not mean they lie more frequently
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I would consider the ability to lie well quite a useful one. I actually wish I was a better liar, as I can't lie to save my life (I have some kind of psychological block about misleading others and it sometimes gets me into trouble). Commenting on the disparity of general lying capabilities between the genders doesn't strike me as particularly offensive – and from my experience, it's got some truth to it...
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 3:56pm
Post #469 of 601
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I actually was kinda hoping it was a physical thing.
But I'm still grateful for the "we're just friends" acknowledgement.
Thanks!
And congrats again!!
And BTW, as I get more geriatric I'm becoming less degenerate, but I hope to remain as narfy as ever!
(That's "narfy", as opposed to "smurfy.")
******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.
Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?
So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.
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lindorian
The Shire
Jul 13 2011, 3:58pm
Post #470 of 601
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Most grown women have a laugh over fancying guys on screen. It's not something to take seriously. And the assumption that his look will will have us all drooling in the aisles is just plain wrong. (He's too pretty for a start!) I didn't fancy any of the hunks in LOTR. I watched it for the story.
As for Kili's look, yes he doesn't look like an archetypal dwarf. I would happily slap a big beard on him but I think there's been a huge overreaction about the hair. By the time he's been on the journey, it's going to look more like Aragon's straggly mess than anything else. These are glossy studio portraits - teasers to get us talking in the run up to Comic Con. I love that the dwarves have different looks and can't wait to see the rest of them.
BTW, I hope James Nesbitt isn't the bald one... after he spent all that money on a hair transplant!
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 4:06pm
Post #471 of 601
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So more than just one of the Company would possibly be part Elf.
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Present version of The Hobbit:
"As I was saying, the mother of this hobbit – of Bilbo Baggins, that is – was the fabulous Belladonna Took, one of the three remarkable daughters of the Old Took, head of the hobbits who lived across The Water, the small river that ran at the foot of The Hill. It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife. That was, of course, absurd, but certainly there was still something not entirely hobbit-like about them, and once in a while members of the Took-clan would go and have adventures."
Tolkien's abandoned revision of The Hobbit from 1960 (published in volume 2 of The History of The Hobbit):
"As I was saying, the mother of this hobbit – of Bilbo Baggins, that is – was the fabulous Belladonna Took, one of the three remarkable daughters of the Old Took, head of the hobbits who lived across The Water, the small river that ran at the foot of The Hill. It was often said (in other families) that the Tooks must have some elvish blood in them: which was of course absurd, but there was undoubtedly some thing queer about them, something not quite hobbitlike, according to the manners of the Shire: an outlandish strain maybe from long ago. Every now and again Tooks would go off on adventures."
******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.
Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?
So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 4:09pm
Post #472 of 601
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Absolutely agree with all you've said, sauget.diblosio,
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and belated welcome to TORn, by the way.
Permanent address: Into the West
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Phibbus
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 4:12pm
Post #473 of 601
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Has anyone considered that the studio pressure to mitigate mostly-male-Middle-earth may have been more successful than we at first realized? Gimli tells us that dwarf women often can't be distinguished from the men... Look at Kili's soft, downy fringe, that slender, willowy build...
I can see it now, just as Kili is about to fall defending lord and uncle... off comes the helmet to reveal that that absolutely glorious nimbus of flowing hair...
"It is no man-dwarf that stands before you, but Kelli, Daughter of Dis!"
(Perhaps it is the guys who should be ogling this cheesecake?)
In seriousness though, the look does not bother me overmuch. What the look might imply as to what is done with the character has me a bit nervous.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 13 2011, 4:32pm
Post #474 of 601
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LOL, this is great! Let the rumors fly! //
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 4:37pm
Post #475 of 601
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because if the description says she falls for an Elf Lord perhaps someone saw Kili and thought he was the elf.
Permanent address: Into the West
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 13 2011, 4:49pm
Post #476 of 601
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Nice to see Dis get a mention...
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But considering their rarity, I don't think the dwarves would be willing to send one of what few women they have on a near suicidal mission to slay a dragon...
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 13 2011, 4:50pm
Post #477 of 601
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We haven't done them in a while.
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But yeah, every once in a while, someone would get inspired to start a thread, and everyone else would chip in with their crush(es)-of-the-moment.
It was fun!
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 4:57pm
Post #478 of 601
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I remember my first look at Bag End and the hobbits...
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I loved it all because it was so familiar--it was like PJ et al had climbed into my head (especially with the Nazgul) and put it all on-screen. If they could only be 100% (or nearly 100%) about one of them, I'm glad it was LotR, my favorite.
After looking at Kili, I may have to just enjoy The Hobbit as a Middle-earth movie of someone else's vision. Rivendell and Bag End we've already seen shots of, and they look basically the same. Most of the Dwarves so far look basically like the dwarves I've always thought of. But with much more of the "Kili factor" and I probably won't be loving The Hobbit because it is a visual of my view, it'll definitely be someone else's view. But I'm gonna love it anyway.
Permanent address: Into the West
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 4:59pm
Post #480 of 601
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...the look of the Dwarves leads me into anticipating that Jackson and Co. will dump the cookie-cutter Elvish look and introduce some more serious non-hawt-ish variations among Elven-kind.
Picture the uproar over the release of a photo of a short dark-haired rather overweight Elf. (Like, say, the Elven-King's Butler?)
Oh, this is going to be so much fun!
But alas, the fun is destined to fade when, in the end, the concensus will be "They're perfect!"
******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.
Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?
So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 13 2011, 5:03pm
Post #481 of 601
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Mine was certainly tongue in cheek!
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I mean, yeah, Kili is very easy on the eyes, () but the real reason I'm not getting bent out of shape over this photo (or Nori's, for that matter, which I find even more absurd and ridiculous and yuck) is because their appearances really don't matter, in the end. if the character roles are written well, they could dress in clown outfits and it would work. But if the roles are written badly, all the prosthetics and beards and stumpy legs in New Zealand aren't going to save it.
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 13 2011, 5:05pm
Post #482 of 601
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Darn you, Arwen's Daughter!!1!
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Um...I'm sorta between hottie crushes at the moment, though. I'll have to think about this...
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 5:05pm
Post #483 of 601
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Costumes could have helped them to stand out and they could have still all looked like traditional dwarves.
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Instead, they've costumed them all mostly in monotone gray, at least for the stills. Individuality could have been achieved in a different way and still conformed to the traditionalist, familiar vision, is all I'm saying.
Permanent address: Into the West
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 13 2011, 5:07pm
Post #484 of 601
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The LotR movies are miles away from my mental view of Middle-Earth
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Especially Elves are completly different, Dwarves are a bit off, and the landscapes and plants are totaly un-European. Where are the birches, beeches and oaks? What are all these tussock grasses and nothofaguses? Why Gondor and Rohan are so barren? How come the Misty Mountains are nothing like the Alps of Switzerland, like Tolkien dreamt them?
And yes, I love them. For their own merits. So I'm going to love TH too.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 5:13pm
Post #485 of 601
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Looks like Peter chose the road less traveled by.
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I still think that Kili will be played as the ugly Dwarf.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 13 2011, 5:19pm
Post #486 of 601
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I still don't think the LotR cast is 'perfect'.
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Elijah Wood was too cherubic to portray the weary fifty-year-old Frodo of the book, Hugo Weaving looked considerably less than Half-Elven, Orlando Bloom was more 'Wood' than 'Elf', and in terms of acting ability, Daniel Day-Lewis and Uma Thurman would have blown Viggo Mortensen and Miranda Otto out of the water. I've long since come to terms with the shortcomings I perceive – and as such I don't wish to get caught up in a tiresome debate with any fans of the aforementioned actors – but I don't expect I'll ever come to regard the Hobbit cast as 'perfect' either. Not by a long shot.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 5:23pm
Post #487 of 601
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Yeah see that's the thing, I am not at all worried about any of the actors I know(and I know Richard Armitage, Aidan Turner, James Nesbitt and now Dean O'Gorman best) and I have little doubt the other actors would be up to similar snuff.
If I had doubts about the actors' talents or the writing(which while I don't think LOTR was perfect, I thought over all it really worked) then the looks of the characters might be more important but to me, now, with those worries out of the way, I'm content to just imagine what these "un-stereotypical" dwarven looks mean, what they represent for the dwarves as a culture on screen and to just have fun with it and if there is eye-candy to be had, well, I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth. :)
I mean I find it kind of fun to play with the idea of Kili maybe getting ribbed for his looks("Now, don't be mean, It's not his fault he's ugly") or maybe he's a rebellious little Dwarf "Elf Fan"(Look at that hair! You need to grow up and grow a real beard! You're a dwarf dammit! Not some pansy elf!). :) And to me that sort of thing(if not that exactly) allows for showing how dwarves are as "real people" with all the sorts of quirks and weirdnesses that real people have rather than just representatives of the race. I don't think any of it would actually play a huge role in the film anyway so there isn't really anything to get that upset about.
And as I said, overall the reactions I've seen have been pretty positive to all the picture releases and for the most part the worst that is said is "Ah well, it's just one out of 13". :)
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LoremIpsum
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 5:24pm
Post #488 of 601
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it's nice to have some untraditional dwarves, it only makes them seem more like real people rather than fantasy creatures.
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 13 2011, 5:27pm
Post #489 of 601
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It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 5:28pm
Post #490 of 601
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Peter Jackson's view of Middle-earth has never been mine
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but I found a way to allow the difference and in time even love the difference. The Hobbit movies are going to be a rip-roarin' adventure and a new view of my favorite fantasy world. I think it is destined to be great cinema.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 13 2011, 5:29pm
Post #491 of 601
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I had no issue with the LOTR cast. I hadn't seen most of them in anything anyway.
I just thought several of the roles were written badly (Aragorn, Merry, Pippin, Faramir, Denethor...).
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 5:31pm
Post #492 of 601
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This is probably what I don't love...
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cause I want it to be a fantasy--a vacation from real people.
Fortunately, so far, Kili is the only one that draws me back into the real world. Hopefully even he will blend in when the movie becomes a movie, and not just a set of promo stills.
Permanent address: Into the West
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 13 2011, 5:33pm
Post #493 of 601
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PJ's already gone down that road.
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At least, he hasn't had gone short and dumpy yet, but I thought most of his LOTR elves were decidedly "Homely."
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
(This post was edited by RosieLass on Jul 13 2011, 5:33pm)
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 5:34pm
Post #494 of 601
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No problems with casting for me either
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and since I had never read the LOTR books before PJ's adaption I adopted his LOTR as the one I imagined. The Hobbit may be different for me because I have read the book and imagined my own 'hobbit world'. I'lll test that statement December 2012.
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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Wraith Buster
Gondor
Jul 13 2011, 6:07pm
Post #495 of 601
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The swords look dwarvish. Fili looks pretty good IMO but Kili looks like a human.
Pedich Edhellen? Lau? Hria cuilë.
End of line.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 6:08pm
Post #496 of 601
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Now, there's a thought! ;-) //
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Jettorex
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 6:32pm
Post #497 of 601
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.....is one strange looking dwarf!
I am sure he is going to be teased incessantly in the movie by the other dwarves. And he's not going to take kindly to it either.
The big question will be...is this Tauriel's love interest?
- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
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Eldaria
Rivendell
Jul 13 2011, 6:41pm
Post #498 of 601
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In the early days there was speculation here about how many dwarves would be cast. Surely not the full 13? Would some be female? Ohhhhh.....I get it now. Kili is a female dwarve. The length of the beard should have tipped us off. If they change the spelling of her name to Keely I think they can pull it off. NOT!!!
“There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep ... that have taken hold.”
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 6:42pm
Post #499 of 601
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http://newboards.theonering.net/...cgi?post=31326#31326
Obviously neither of us share in the consensus.
(You and I actually *agree* on something??? The Apocalypse is near!!!)
******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.
Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?
So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jul 13 2011, 6:52pm
Post #500 of 601
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I have particular dislike for the drag queen looking effiminate Elves.
And yet nobody whines about them, thought it's pretty obvious they don't look what Tolkien ment Elves to look like. (Elves and Humans are practically the same species, and are only identified from each other by their eyes and voice.)
But all this time I've felt people are really less butthurt that the Dwarves are "different than in the books" than they're butthurt about them being "diffefrent than in LotR movies"
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 7:19pm
Post #501 of 601
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...on why this time around fan criticism of The Hobbit will be twice as toxic as before:
But all this time I've felt people are really less butthurt that the Dwarves are "different than in the books" than they're butthurt about them being "diffefrent than in LotR movies"
Now there are not only Book Purists, but Film Purists.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.
Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?
So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 7:23pm
Post #502 of 601
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You are assuming that Tauriel will have a love interest. All we know about Tauriel is who is playing the part.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Jul 13 2011, 7:24pm)
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carrioncrow
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 7:30pm
Post #503 of 601
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Are two cocky "greenhorns".
The world hasn't left its mark on these two, but things are about to change.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 7:37pm
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At least, he hasn't had gone short and dumpy yet, but I thought most of his LOTR elves were decidedly "Homely."
I don't think most of his elves were actually particularly beautiful. Heck IMO that's why Figwit stood out, he was actually kind of hot(not that I had any idea about this Figwit thing at the time but I do remember watching the movie and being like "Hey he's kind of cute" during his little scene--still a little horsey though:)).
Most of the Elves IMO ranged from bland to downright homely(in the US English sense meaning plain/ugly--I believe in some other English speaking countries it actually means simply attractive--maybe what we in the US might refer to as "all American" in looks, a nice fresh natural look). I think the only one who really came close was maybe Cate Blanchett, she's not really someone I'd normally consider all that hot but somehow she worked as an Elf. It may have been that at least she didn't have an excessively and/or bony long face. :)
But you know, it didn't ruin the movie for me, I don't even really think about it except that it just happened to come up here today. :)
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carrioncrow
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 7:42pm
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If the youngest dwarves are the least "calcified" and therefore the least encumbered by facial prosthetics, then what of Balin?
He is one of the oldest dwarves and is being played by one of the older actors. Balin is a significant character, deeply entwined in many of the emotional threads of the story and the film franchise. His portrayal and his interaction with Bilbo and Thorin are extremely important.
I long thought if they get Balin right, then the battle is half won for me.
But am I to now assume Ken Stott is going to have to accomplish all of this while suffering deep beneath "Pizza the Hutt" prosthetics?
(This post was edited by carrioncrow on Jul 13 2011, 7:44pm)
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 7:45pm
Post #507 of 601
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Yeah,k I think that's my problem.
Permanent address: Into the West
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Lindele
Gondor
Jul 13 2011, 7:49pm
Post #508 of 601
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why fix it if it's not broken?
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 7:53pm
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That which was established in LotR film is basically what I wanted to see. Whatever hadn't already been visualized (new territory) is fair game.
Permanent address: Into the West
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 13 2011, 7:54pm
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Wow! It's deja vu all over again!
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That's exactly what the Book Purists said during the filming of LOTR!
*Play Twilight Zone music*
******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.
Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?
So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.
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tolkiennerd
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 7:54pm
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The one with the black hair Kili? looks like a human I thought I was seeing Bard before I read it. the other one looks like a young dwarf.
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Elfhelm
The Shire
Jul 13 2011, 7:55pm
Post #512 of 601
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Hmm. I believe they'll look good in the films, and actually fit right in...
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...as the two distinctive young rascals in our merry little band of dwarves. Kind of a strange promo pic, though... I mean the first dwarf photo that was released seemed like it was even doctored/scaled to make the actors' build more compact and dwarvish, but this one is completely the opposite, nothing really suggests it's dwarves we're looking at. If I didn't know any better I'd say it's just two human medieval/fantasy warriors. However, I can imagine this look working just fine in the films, they'll probably appear just as dwarvish as the rest yet easily distinguishable. It all comes down to the script and their acting. And I like it that they're not buried under (unnecessarily) heavy prosthetics.
As someone mentioned the arrows do look unrealistic, Kili's going to need a ballista rather than a tiny shortbow for those! So I'm starting to get a little worried about these props, I do hope they'll not forgo realism for the weapons and such and just go for a "cool look", as I think in the second production video we saw a short bit of Richard Taylor playing with a composite bow, which in practice with its limp string seemed more like a toy than a real bow with which you could actually shoot (I'll have to review that video and look closer).
Fili's dual-wielded swords seem nifty and promise some wicked swordplay from him (as evidenced by the first production video where we saw a dual-wielding Rob Kazinsky practicing fight choreography against multiple opponents).
Finally, I kind of like the idea mentioned earlier that these two young dwarves with their almost non-existent beards are actually the "ugly" ones in dwarven culture and might even have to suffer some good-humored teasing for it by their older companions.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 7:55pm
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Hate to say it but this little funny has been done to death
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and that is only on this thread. Kili is an ugly male dwarf, but what he lacks in looks he more than makes up in spunk.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Jul 13 2011, 7:56pm)
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 8:05pm
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For me though, the looks are almost more important than the performance. The major appeal of a film as an adaptation of a book is the chance to see the scenes of the book in a more solid form than the mutable vagaries of your mind's eye. A picture's worth a thousand words, and frankly i don't think Tolkien wrote a thousand words about Kili- this is now the image that will be lodged in my mind as Kili. All the worse when i go to see the films since then i'll have 48 pictures of him per second of screentime to contend with. If you've got a performance that fall's flat it's a lot easier to discard it as you read the book- you're dealing with word-to-word replacement with whatever better version you can imagine, but visually these are now the forms these characters will take in my mind (unless i can come up with a equally complete and far stronger physical image of what the character would be. If there was another live-action film of The Hobbit in the pipeline i wouldn't mind so much, but since this is the only one there is i wish PJ and the powers that be would be a bit more careful with their visual material.
Dr Death
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 8:18pm
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Can i hire you as my interpreter?
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Thank Christ for you Flagg, you've made my point more palatable- you're a wonderful little liar!
Lying is a vital social tool, one i've got to admit i'm not exactly proficient in (hence why i get these royal bollockings on this site so frequently). While i don't wholly wish to remove the acidity of my point there, you do a lot better job at articulating the specific meaning underneath the 'tabloid headline' hammer blows i utilise when trying to 'cut the proverbial'.
Dr Death
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 13 2011, 8:18pm
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I would not say it was for lack of care for their visual material
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that PJ an company might be faulted. I an very-very certain that Kili's look was considered and discussed at length and that decisions were made that you disagree with, but your dissatisfaction is not due to a lack of care on the movie maker's part. It is obviously a carefully made decision that does not satisfy your preconceived notion of what a Dwarf should look like. I had never thought of a Dwarf like Kili either but then I always thought that Aragorn was tall and Faramir was noble.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Theodred
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 8:27pm
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but I have the feeling that this thread started with mostly negative reactions and slowly but surely turned over towards more positive reactions. I think that some people (not all ofcourse), reading other peoples reactions and opinions, picked up various opinions of other people along the way they haven't thought of themselves and because of this, changed their opinion from negative towards more positive and are slowly accepting the fact that it's possible that dwarves maybe are more diverse than most people thought and are not all Gimli-clones, so where at the beginning many people thought Kili is not looking as a dwarf without a decent beard and all, now they're already starting to accept the fact that there could be dwarves like Kili, and by the time The Hobbit comes out, are completely accustomed to Kili as one of the dwarves.
http://dehobbithyve.hyves.nl/
http://www.widgetbox.com/widget/the-hobbit-news-widget-ronald_40
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Elfhelm
The Shire
Jul 13 2011, 8:36pm
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Doh. Remembered it all wrong, it wasn't Rob K. nor was he dual-wielding, and Richard's bow looked fine (and it was not even strung!). Nevermind an old man's ramblings. n/t
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Jettorex
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 8:43pm
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Thats because they're not Dwarves...
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......they're dwelves.
- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
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kiwifan
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 9:31pm
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If you take quotes out of context, at least get them right
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because in mine (the first one of your list), you left out the icon which signified that I had meant it tongue-in-cheek!
'Goodness gracious, you really are a messie!' 'Oh no, I'm not, these are all just mathoms...'
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kiwifan
Rohan
Jul 13 2011, 9:44pm
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I've never been in a strip club of either sort but you are spot on
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as far as the different kind of admiration women can have for goodlooking men. And my impression is that most of us females in this thread mean just that ---- jokingly, tongue-in-cheek. It seems I was the first one apparently in this thread to start commenting on gorgeous Kili, and got that part of my post misquoted by DrDeath...
Oops, my laptop is beginning to make weird knocking noises, I'd better call it a day, but I just want to say thank you, Taekotemple, for a very thoughtful and well-reasoned post!
'Goodness gracious, you really are a messie!' 'Oh no, I'm not, these are all just mathoms...'
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 13 2011, 9:45pm
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I manage to find references to Aragorn as 'dark' and 'handsome' (moody i have a pretty good idea won't feature (at least not directly- i think i can manage a reference to an analogous phrase though)). And 'consistently' is too vague a term- say three references to each word? If i do it, but you manage my challenge to find a single example of dwarves being called handsome without qualification i'll accept it. Lets quit the talking and get down to business. All texts written by Tolkien (or 'as Tolkien' in the case of posthumous publications) are game, but not Christopher Tolkien's commentary, scholarly texts or derivative works.
Dr Death
(This post was edited by Altaira on Jul 13 2011, 10:07pm)
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adu
Bree
Jul 13 2011, 10:12pm
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sphdle1
Gondor
Jul 14 2011, 1:14am
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A mental view of Middle-Earth is...
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Completely mental!
sphdle1
"You shall not pass!"
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sphdle1
Gondor
Jul 14 2011, 1:17am
Post #529 of 601
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keep up the positive outlook!
sphdle1
"You shall not pass!"
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sphdle1
Gondor
Jul 14 2011, 1:18am
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Wow this thing's on fire ... gonna be some kinda record me thinks!? :-) //
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sphdle1
"You shall not pass!"
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jul 14 2011, 2:09am
Post #531 of 601
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Well, I'm a woman and I'm a crappy liar.
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It's always obvious when I lie, because I was raised to be honest by a very honest woman. And that's even with me having a theater background. For some reason, I could play a character, but I can't play a lie. I think I may have that same psychological block as you do. And if I went from my experience, I've been lied to more panifully and dramatically by some men than women. And those lies did a great deal more harm to me than any lie a woman has told me.
Now, part of the problem could be what is interpreted as a lie. Women do tend to put a lot more nuance behind their words, so they can be saying something, and it's true, but it has an underlying meaning that isn't being said, but implied. That isn't necessarily a lie. It's just a more complex meaning behind a statement. To understand this better, there's a book called "Odd Girl Out." It's a great book in understanding not only how young girls bully each other, but how girls and women develop communication styles which are very different from the way men usually communicate, which can be more straightforward.
So ultimately, I think it's best to be careful about generalizations. And nobody likes to be accused of lying, so it can come across as offensive, especially if you're someone like me who is likely just as bad a liar as you are.
Wow, I'm really using my psych degree today in this thread!
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jul 14 2011, 2:36am
Post #532 of 601
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I wonder what the record is here for how many responses are posted to a thread topic?
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 14 2011, 2:48am
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ETA: Have we gotten a higher res version of the Fili and Kili picture yet?
It's often the case, in my experience, that women sometimes know when another woman isn't being entirely truthful and men won't catch it. That would seem to say that it isn't that women lie better, just that sometimes men don't necessarily pick up on the same cues women do which gives the lie away.
IIRC there have been studies showing that women tend to pick up non-verbal cues more accurately, even in still photographs(such as body language, facial expressions, and for the verbal things like subtle changes in tones of voice) then men do. This is probably behind the idea of "women's intuition", it's not really some magical thing, but something very "real" that women just tend to be better at picking up(and there are always exceptions)--we're gathering information from more aspects of the situation sometimes, I guess, often on a subconscious level.
I guess it could be one advantage to having a less compartmentalized brain(I don't know I'm just assuming, I remember hearing that there are more connections between various parts of womens brains then mens, that's why women can sometimes recover somewhat better from strokes), it comes in handy sometimes being more compartmentalized, but sometimes it can be more helpful to have the various bits of the brain interacting more freely.
Which is also why we sometimes can think a guy is really hot and still be using our reason to judge other aspects at the same time. ;) Mental multi-tasking can have it's advantages. LOL
It's always obvious when I lie, because I was raised to be honest by a very honest woman. And that's even with me having a theater background. For some reason, I could play a character, but I can't play a lie. I think I may have that same psychological block as you do. And if I went from my experience, I've been lied to more panifully and dramatically by some men than women. And those lies did a great deal more harm to me than any lie a woman has told me. Now, part of the problem could be what is interpreted as a lie. Women do tend to put a lot more nuance behind their words, so they can be saying something, and it's true, but it has an underlying meaning that isn't being said, but implied. That isn't necessarily a lie. It's just a more complex meaning behind a statement. To understand this better, there's a book called "Odd Girl Out." It's a great book in understanding not only how young girls bully each other, but how girls and women develop communication styles which are very different from the way men usually communicate, which can be more straightforward. So ultimately, I think it's best to be careful about generalizations. And nobody likes to be accused of lying, so it can come across as offensive, especially if you're someone like me who is likely just as bad a liar as you are. Wow, I'm really using my psych degree today in this thread!
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jul 14 2011, 2:50am)
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Sunflower
Valinor
Jul 14 2011, 4:08am
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How about if Peter does something that is closer to Tolkien but departs from his film/ LOTR concept of ME? Then you'd have a Film Purist upset at him for being a Book Purist. It is possible. The mind reels.
I'm sorry, this is just too darned entertaining. Our first genuine Hobbit Controversy! This hearkens back to the glory days of the First Age pre-FOTR and I missed all that. And yes, the poster who said that this is nothing, wait until we get overrun by "Real Fans" is right on the money. Thank God, we Tolkien fans have something to lok forward to when the Hogwarts Express pulls away and we, like Harrry, wil have to wave goodbye.
(That's where I'm going to be tomorrow night...and yes Ithink I may bring tissues.)
You know this is good when it successfully pulls you out of the Potterverse for a few hours, where they are writing near-universal rave reviews taht aren't just (respectful goodbye to the Franchise" reviews, but "It's a great movie on its own" reviews, and many top critics are openly calling for a HP Best Picture nomination...and Alan Rickman for an Oscar. (I kid you not--Peter Travers of Rolling Stone and Roeper among them.)
It's a great week for the loverd of fantasy...as one reviewer for FOTR said, "Let us at last praise the colonizers of dreams."
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little mouse
Rivendell
Jul 14 2011, 12:05pm
Post #535 of 601
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is Thorin described as fat?
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 14 2011, 12:14pm
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It's not about what Tolkien DIDN'T say...
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He stated that dwarves are stocky, so it becomes unnecessary to describe individual dwarves as such. If Throin were thin then it WOULD be necessary to state that fact, because it would conflict with a previous description.
Because Tolkien didn't describe him as thin it PURPOSELY implies that he is of the same build as other dwarves... Had there been any thin or beardless dwarves, Tolkien would have mentioned it.
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 14 2011, 1:51pm
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 14 2011, 1:53pm
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I'd actually be more comfortable with Kili's appearance if the writers made him the illegitimate offspring of a Dwarf and an Elf. Maybe they could make a decent running joke out of it. I'd definitely be able to accept him as Fili's Elvish half-brother.
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GhostofMacbeth
Bree
Jul 14 2011, 1:58pm
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I am in agreement. He didn't say anything about them being thin. The general framework would have to fit. Fili is fine to me as a young dwarf, Kili really isn't. I just have to add my opinion to the masses that really am not liking the beardless pretty dwarf. They have plenty of opportunity to have some eye candy in the elves and other characters. They don't need to simplify one of the main ones to the point that he has no makeup just to appeal to a certain demographic. It just looks out of place in something that has always been very unified.
I am not totally digging the starfish hair either, it sort of looks more like something out of Warhammer or Warcraft than Tolkien but that is a lot better than prettymandwarf here.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 14 2011, 2:59pm
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I think that would be bending the rules a bit too much. But as a part of "The Ugly Dwarf Gag" the accusation could be hilarious.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Jul 14 2011, 4:17pm
Post #543 of 601
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If it's any consolation, I was only being half-serious.
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But I do believe than an Elf/Dwarf hybrid would make sense within the framework established by Tolkien.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 14 2011, 4:28pm
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I would say it might be possible but not probable.
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Dwarves were beings created by a lesser God.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 14 2011, 4:43pm
Post #546 of 601
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As described in the book! Cheers for the high-res!
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 14 2011, 4:46pm
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The good news is that people soften over time. I remember the outcry of some when FOTR came out: it's not like the book, why did they ruin the book, etc., and most of those same people now lovingly call it their favorite of the three films.
That's because the other two were even less like the book.
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 14 2011, 4:48pm
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That's so huge that, even tiled, it's too big for the background on my widescreen monitor...
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 14 2011, 4:48pm
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Stocky does not mean fat, though it can. I can think of one actor who is naturally, left to his own devices, rather stocky(but he wasn't fat by any means, he was athletic, even ran a marathon in a little more than 3 hours), but he got a role that called for a really hard bodied, 3% body fat type look look and he worked out a lot and probably gave up some of the carbs and such and hot damn, the man was like an Adonis, a somewhat short Adonis being only about 5 ft 8, but what a lovely little package of god-like gorgeousness. LOL But in any case, he was, normally, what you'd call stocky before that and yet he was not what you'd have called fat, aside from the baby fat in his face when younger.
So anyway, I'm just saying stocky does not necessarily mean fat or even particularly chubby. It's more about the bone structure and proportions. The old excuse "I'm not fat, I'm just big boned" is actually sort of true in the case of some stocky people. :D
He stated that dwarves are stocky, so it becomes unnecessary to describe individual dwarves as such. If Throin were thin then it WOULD be necessary to state that fact, because it would conflict with a previous description.
Because Tolkien didn't describe him as thin it PURPOSELY implies that he is of the same build as other dwarves... Had there been any thin or beardless dwarves, Tolkien would have mentioned it.
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 14 2011, 4:51pm
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I could live with it as a joke.
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It would be very funny to have the other dwarves jibing Kili about being so "pretty."
But I don't know if I could swallow the idea of it being an actuality. I haven't studied the matter to know Tolkien's views, but somehow I've gotten the impression that the Dwarves are an entirely separate kind of being and that they are physically incompatible with the other races.
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 14 2011, 5:01pm
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As described in the book! Cheers for the high-res!
His costume is beautiful(there are a few of them I've really liked, I think Gloin's was one and Dori's was the other, they were both sort of burgundy).
I'm not sure, I have a bad monitor but does he have jewels encrusted on the cuffs of his coat and the belt of his quiver?(I was right in thinking he wasn't even wearing a belt around his waist and thus we have no idea how long his legs actually are in proportion to his body). He also seems to have thick fingers, though they are a bit hard to make out on his sword handle.
And his nose really isn't all that small. Sure it's smaller than most of the others, except for Bofur, but it still got a sort of bulbous tip.
LOL And I don't care what anyone says, I love his hair(except for the wind machine)
Everyone was talking about the "huge bow and arrows" but neither his bow nor his arrows look all that huge to me. The arrows look a bit like the "stag killing" arrows of Robin Hood's time period(if you got caught with those arrows they knew you were out for no good with the King's deer:)) And unless I'm missing something the bow doesn't look especially large at all.
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jul 14 2011, 5:05pm)
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 14 2011, 5:06pm
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His outfit is incredibly detailed and beautiful.The Hobbit already has an Oscar for best costume in the bag ! I must say, Kili is my favorite dwarf so far!
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 14 2011, 5:40pm
Post #553 of 601
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I clicked on this link to look at Kili...
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and when I glanced over at Fili, I could have sworn he winked at me!
Permanent address: Into the West
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 14 2011, 5:52pm
Post #554 of 601
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Awesome! He does have a mischievous twinkle in his eye!
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Jul 14 2011, 5:57pm
Post #555 of 601
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I was beginning to think that I missed seeing it among all of the posts
..The land of long-forgotten name:
......no man may ever anchor near;
..No steering star his hope may aim,
......for nether Night its marches drear,
..And waters wide no sail may tame,
......with shores encircled dark and sheer.
..O! Haven where my heart would be!
......the waves beat upon thy bar
..For ever echo endlessly,
......when longing leads thy thought afar
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Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Jul 14 2011, 6:01pm
Post #556 of 601
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As a joke, it has the potential for hilarity, but I don't think I could swallow it as an actuality
..The land of long-forgotten name:
......no man may ever anchor near;
..No steering star his hope may aim,
......for nether Night its marches drear,
..And waters wide no sail may tame,
......with shores encircled dark and sheer.
..O! Haven where my heart would be!
......the waves beat upon thy bar
..For ever echo endlessly,
......when longing leads thy thought afar
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Garfeimao
Rohan
Jul 14 2011, 6:06pm
Post #557 of 601
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Fili does have a twinkle in his eye, to be sure
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Both costumes are gorgeous, I'm just drooling over some of the leatherwork and trim. Squeeee for Hi res.
Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,
Garfeimao
The orange stripey One
Cruise to Middle-earth
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LaurenDrake
Registered User
Jul 14 2011, 6:16pm
Post #558 of 601
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Has anyone else spotted something very strange about Kili's lower hand? Wonder if this was the reason it took so long to get a hi-res since it's not so noticeable at all in the smaller image...
Thanks very much for posting this by the way. Love this costume so much more now I can see the detail.
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 14 2011, 6:21pm
Post #559 of 601
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Is he wearing fingerless leather gloves?
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and what you're seeing is the fingers of his other hand?
Permanent address: Into the West
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Phibbus
Rohan
Jul 14 2011, 6:22pm
Post #560 of 601
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Kili of the seven fingers.
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jul 14 2011, 6:23pm
Post #561 of 601
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Hallo, my name is Inigo Montoya! You killed my father. Prepare to die!!
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Jul 14 2011, 6:38pm
Post #562 of 601
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No, I believe that's what could be called a photoshopping continuity error.//
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**********************************
NARF
NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jul 14 2011, 6:40pm
Post #563 of 601
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Is he supposed to have seven fingers?
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Or it that just a mistake?
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Jul 14 2011, 6:46pm
Post #564 of 601
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Looks like proof that this pic is a photo composite, to me.//
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**********************************
NARF
NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jul 14 2011, 6:54pm
Post #565 of 601
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That answers the question about photoshop,//
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Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Quabbelgum
Registered User
Jul 14 2011, 6:55pm
Post #566 of 601
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Fingers, Knives & dwarven runes
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Maybe Fili could take care of Kilis Extra-Fingers with the knife attached to his left arm..... well, however......... at least another cool detail....
Talking about cool details - are there dwarven runes on the blade of Kilis sword??
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 14 2011, 7:34pm
Post #567 of 601
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I'm so out of the loop--where is your nick from?
Permanent address: Into the West
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DrunkenMime
Registered User
Jul 14 2011, 8:23pm
Post #568 of 601
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Kili looks more like an elf if you ask me....they should make his beard a little longer
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RoseCotton
Lorien
Jul 14 2011, 8:27pm
Post #569 of 601
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(This post was edited by RoseCotton on Jul 14 2011, 8:30pm)
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Quabbelgum
Registered User
Jul 14 2011, 8:32pm
Post #570 of 601
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Oh, it's the name of the oil used by the robot in the "Wizard of Oz"!
Well.................not really..........just something out of the upper left corner of my sick brain......... so... nevermind your out of loopiness....
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Oleander Took
Rivendell
Jul 14 2011, 8:42pm
Post #571 of 601
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I didn't notice he had 7 fingers, maybe they thought his hands looked too small for a dwarf and decided to add extra fingers lol. The first time i saw it, i thought that the lower part of the body looked smaller than the upper part. Maybe they should look at the pictures a bit more before releasing them.
I'm not sure about the runes but i at first i thought that too.
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jul 15 2011, 1:16am
Post #572 of 601
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So, if Frodo gets the "Frodo of the Nine Fingers" song in Rankin/Bass
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Does Kili get a "Kili of the Twelve Fingers" song?
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Annael
Immortal
Jul 15 2011, 2:52pm
Post #573 of 601
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For me though, the looks are almost more important than the performance.
I know a lot of guys who base their judgments almost entirely on appearances . . .
(teasing you!)
The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 15 2011, 3:35pm
Post #574 of 601
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You're probably not too far off the mark
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Men are more visual- we know it applies in terms of sexual attractiveness (the male sense of what makes a woman attractive is far more limited than the female idea of what makes a man attractive) and in terms of gratification from pornography. It's entirely possible that men get more out of seeing a picture and read more from it than they do picking up the subtleties of language. It's no secret that autism (which i have) tends to affect males far more than it does females- it seems to emerge from our natural inclination towards technical things and our comparative lack of imaginative capabilities. Personally i stand in wonder of people with artistic minds since i literally have the imagination of a gold-fish. Give me a picture and tell me where it goes right or wrong though and i can pick it apart into it's component parts as easily as talking.
Dr Death
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jul 15 2011, 3:45pm
Post #575 of 601
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I had a vague notion in the back of my head that you might be on the autism spectrum by the way you write (which is can be very eloquent, by the way) and the way you interpret some of the social cues in posts. I've worked in counseling with a few people on the autism spectrum. This makes a lot more sense to me now, and definitely helps me understand the way you interpret things. Thank you for sharing that!
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 15 2011, 3:51pm
Post #576 of 601
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Well i've made no secret of it
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And if anyone wants to batter my arguments with it like i have in regards their aesthetic preferences or any other 'off limits' personal qualities that may be pertinent to the discussion in hand, feel free. It may hurt somewhat, but things that lie close to the bone always do, and it is only in challenging our opinions both of ourselves and of less personal matters that we learn and become better and wiser human beings.
Perhaps i should put it in my signature as a warning- abandon hope all ye who argue here!
Dr Death
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enginemonkey
The Shire
Jul 16 2011, 2:15pm
Post #577 of 601
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...in Photoshop. I have tweaked the scoundrel a bit and made his proportions more dwarf like and given him more nose, eyebrows and bit more beard. The changes are very subtle but make him less of an half elf!
http://bit.ly/p2qLio
Still a sex bomb mind  !!!
See my artwork here:
http://www.amandaclegg.co.uk
http://enginemonkey.deviantart.com/
(This post was edited by enginemonkey on Jul 16 2011, 2:18pm)
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Annael
Immortal
Jul 16 2011, 2:27pm
Post #578 of 601
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My nephew has Asperger's. He's done just fine for himself (attorney & Marine captain and now a terrific father) but we have found we have to be very direct with him, since he doesn't pick up on the nonverbal cues that the rest of us take for granted. I just saw a film with Hugh Dancy playing a guy with Asperger's, and it brought home to me that the oblique way many neurotypicals interact can come across as "lying" to someone who can't read those cues. I had to explain to my sister-in-law, who I suspect also has Asperger's (they didn't know about it when she was young) that when our mother-in-law said "yes" in a certain tone she meant "no" but didn't want to say so. Sis-in-law could not understand that at all.
But I must say as I get older, the less tolerance I have for such obliqueness, and just wish people would say what they want instead of trying to get it in such a passive-aggressive way. Unfortunately, most people grow up in families where that is the model, and learning to be direct is very hard for them. Perhaps the autism we're seeing these days will teach us all honesty . . .
The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.
- James Hillman, Healing Fiction
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
(This post was edited by Annael on Jul 16 2011, 2:29pm)
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Patty
Immortal
Jul 16 2011, 7:56pm
Post #579 of 601
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This does make him look more dwarf-like...
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he'd have to join the others in wearing a "fat suit", but it would be do-able.
Permanent address: Into the West
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 16 2011, 10:24pm
Post #580 of 601
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Well it won't teach tact that's for sure
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Yes, i believe the honesty and reckless candor of my people has a certain charm all of it's own amid the staggering pigheadedness and mental inflexibility. The world takes all types- it's just a pity some of them have to be such utter pain in the backsides
Dr Death
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jul 19 2011, 3:18pm
Post #581 of 601
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You're saying Fili is older, but my book says different...
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I'm confused, where are you getting the dates from? In Flies and Spiders Thorin says "Dori is the strongest, but Fili is the youngest and still has the best sight". So Kili must be older.
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DrDeath153
Lorien
Jul 19 2011, 4:03pm
Post #582 of 601
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I think the correction comes in the LotR appendices where he lists Kili as the younger of the brothers.
Dr Death
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 19 2011, 5:37pm
Post #583 of 601
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I actually think Tolkien just got the names mixed up because let's face it? How does it actually matter whether Fili or Kili is the oldest enough to "correct" it in the first place? In the book The Hobbit itself, they are treated as a pair and they both die at the same time in the same way(relatively speaking).
So I can't see it mattering enough to anyone, even Tolkien, to say "oh wait, how did I screw that up, of course KILI must be the youngest! Have to fix that in this here appendix". :D
I think when he was writing the Appendix he either forgot or it was just a "typo"(in writing I assume) and it wasn't even important enough to notice. "Fili, Kili? Eh I don't have time to look it up right now, they are practically interchangeable, doesn't matter anyway, they both die!"
I actually assume in the movie it might matter a bit more.
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jul 19 2011, 5:39pm)
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kiwifan
Rohan
Jul 19 2011, 6:14pm
Post #584 of 601
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you're so right --- couldn't agree more about passive-aggressive behaviour being detrimental to communication
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Glad to hear your nephew is dealing so well with having Asperger's! And thanks for mentioning the film 'Adam', I didn't know about it (just checked out the online catalogue of our municipal library and they have the DVD so I'll get it next week, I hope).
Also found this interesting article about the film, here's the link:
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article6731818.ece
Has the author got it right, in your opinion?
I'm absolutely convinced that one of my nieces has Asperger's, too, in a relatively mild way I suppose, but although her parents suspect I'm right, they don't want to have her tested since they fear an official diagnosis would stigmatise her. In the mean time, they just let things slide, which I find worrying since at nine years old she could still profit from special support available at school. However, it's their decision. And it's a good thing she has three sisters so she has some company as she finds it hard to make friends. But it's like you said, she doesn't understand irony, subtlety of meaning, nuances of tone, and gets extremely frustrated when she realises she can't understand something but has no way of finding out what it is. I get along fine with her since I'm usually very direct in what I want to communicate (which sometimes made things a little awkward during the years I lived in Canada and the States and got me in trouble in one of the threads right here on a TORn message board not so long ago). And I don't have Asperger's --- I just grew up with mostly boys who were nothing if not direct, and never had much patience with what my mother and grandmother regarded as polite behaviour and tried to instil into me and which I considered mealy-mouthed avoidance of the heart of the matter. You can imagine that some forms of political correctness aren't exactly up my alley.
Yet I'm not so disastrously blunt that I would deliberately hurt someone unless they offered me irresistible provocation. In fact, I once had a new colleague who was absolutely desperate for acceptance but managed only to get on everyone's nerves, trying to foist first names and informal mode of address on everyone which is not a thing to do in Germany when dealing with people older than oneself, and being new and 'untested' so to speak. She even followed one of our male colleagues halfway into the men's room once, so insistent was she that he talk to her! (And then he came to me to complain about her as if she were my responsibility, which she wasn't.) And one Friday evening she once literally cornered me in my office blocking the way so I couldn't leave the room, asking me to tell her why I (and the others) didn't like her. There was no way I could tell her the unvarnished truth because I feared she might jump out of the window if I did, so I tried to be tactful and said she had a habit of overwhelming people with her demands that was rather off-putting. That didn't faze her, so I said she ought to stop steamrollering over people. And still she wouldn't let me leave, insisting I go out for a drink with her, and that was the last thing I wanted since I had a date. I didn't tell her that since she was perfectly capable of tagging along uninvited (besides perhaps being depressed about not having one herself). I tried to help her by suggesting she improve her appearance by talking about a perfectly great new line of shampoo/conditioner/deodorant/shower gel with a lovely scent and suggesting she get that for herself --- any other woman would have picked up on the veiled message 'you smell and and are generally unkempt' --- which I couldn't have said to her straight out --- but she didn't get it. I wonder if she had Asperger's, too? But that was over twenty years ago and I'd never heard about it. So I was being oblique to spare her feelings, with the result that nothing was communicated except frustration on both sides. I hope that I'd have the guts to tell her more directly if I were in that situation now --- but I'm afraid would still find it extremely awkward...
P.S. What about songs like 'Honesty' by Billy Joel, and what is the one that goes something like 'cruel to be kind in the right measure' (can't remember either title or singer/band)?
'Goodness gracious, you really are a messie!' 'Oh no, I'm not, these are all just mathoms...'
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kiwifan
Rohan
Jul 22 2011, 11:38pm
Post #585 of 601
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I'm not trying to tease you, I simply can't figure out who you are referring to. ??
'Goodness gracious, you really are a messie!' 'Oh no, I'm not, these are all just mathoms...'
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sueb1863
Rivendell
Jul 23 2011, 12:13am
Post #586 of 601
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In the most recent video blog, KIli's hair is shorter, messier, and it looks brown instead of black. His overall appearance isn't as polished, he looks scruffier. He doesn't look so much like a shampoo ad!
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jul 25 2011, 4:48pm
Post #587 of 601
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Hair, Hair long beautiful hair...
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In the most recent video blog, KIli's hair is shorter, messier, and it looks brown instead of black. His overall appearance isn't as polished, he looks scruffier. He doesn't look so much like a shampoo ad!
I don't think his hair actually changed color, I think it was just the lighting, brown hair can look black in the right settings. Thorin's hair looks more brown too, in some of the bits and pieces from the video. I always figured Kili kind of got tossed to the wolves as the "pretty boy" complete with inexplicable wind machine to make it easier to accept the OTHER not quite so dwarfy(to some people's interpretations) dwarves, especially Thorin. I don't know, the shampoo model thing just felt exaggerated for effect to me.
I think if Thorin had been released, say right after Oin and Gloin, it would have been "OH MY GOD HE LOOKS too human!!!". There was still some of that, but by the time Thorin came along it was more like "Hey yeah, he looks OK, I can accept that" And I really think that was because some fans(not all) who were inclined to dislike such appearances got to see just how "bad" it could be with Kili first so suddenly Thorin looked pretty good being a bit older and rougher.
Then, they released the video and suddenly even Kili doesn't actually look so bad in action because, you know, there is no wind machine following him around and his hair is a mess. LOL
I think it was a very smart marketing ploy. :)
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jul 25 2011, 4:50pm)
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sueb1863
Rivendell
Aug 1 2011, 1:11am
Post #588 of 601
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...of Aidan Turner as Kili:
http://twitpic.com/5xjy1c
I think here he looks scruffier, more dwarf-like and nowhere near the smooth, elfish way he looked in the publicity shot.
Just passing it along!
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marillaraina
Rohan
Aug 2 2011, 7:02am
Post #589 of 601
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I saw a smaller version of that capture when the video was originally released. Thanks for the bigger version.
Nose and eyebrows too.
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Niniel Valinor
Rivendell
Aug 4 2011, 9:00pm
Post #590 of 601
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I've always thought of Fili and Kili kinda like the dwarf versions of Merry and Pippin, just a little less naive, but still young at heart. That's why those photos works for me. Expecially after seeing the production videos. I don't find any of the dwarfs sexy, but I do find those two cute as buttons which works for me considering that's how I expected and hoped they'd be like.
As for the neverending discussions about beards... sigh... lol. I'm a huuuuge fan of Tolkien, of the books as well as PJ & Co, but things like beards doesn't bother me. They all have some sort of facial hair. And the fact that some says they look more like Disney dwarves... WHAT? I was terrified that they WOULD look like the seven dwarves from Snowhite. With different coloured hats. It works on paper, but it would be terrible on screen with 13 identical dwarves only difference by the color of their hats.
So I love my two faves!
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marillaraina
Rohan
Aug 4 2011, 9:39pm
Post #591 of 601
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I feel very similarly. It would be one thing if hair wasn't playing a major role but dwarf hair is clearly playing a major role, both of the beard and scalp variety. :) So I just see it as adding a little more variety to the whole idea that hair is a kind of cultural importance, just in different ways and more individual ways than just being all about the length of the beard.
Fili and Kili I think definitely have the potential to be TH's Merry and Pippin.
One thing I really hope is that they are developed well enough for their death's to mean something. And for it to be shown. I don't just want to be told "Oh yeah Fili and Kili died" like in the book or to be like "oh yeah, those two dwarves, what were there names again...yeah they died, during the battle, I noticed it off to the side"
The deaths of Thorin and Fili and Kili is one aspect that is quite different from LOTR I feel. The only member of the original fellowship who died in LOTR was Boromir and it was early in the journey. Three of the characters with whom we travel through The Hobbit from the beginning are going to die near the end and in the brothers' case, it's at the beginning(relatively speaking) of their lives, when they should have their whole lives ahead of them. I want it to mean something.
I've always thought of Fili and Kili kinda like the dwarf versions of Merry and Pippin, just a little less naive, but still young at heart. That's why those photos works for me. Expecially after seeing the production videos. I don't find any of the dwarfs sexy, but I do find those two cute as buttons which works for me considering that's how I expected and hoped they'd be like.
As for the neverending discussions about beards... sigh... lol. I'm a huuuuge fan of Tolkien, of the books as well as PJ & Co, but things like beards doesn't bother me. They all have some sort of facial hair. And the fact that some says they look more like Disney dwarves... WHAT? I was terrified that they WOULD look like the seven dwarves from Snowhite. With different coloured hats. It works on paper, but it would be terrible on screen with 13 identical dwarves only difference by the color of their hats.
So I love my two faves!
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Niniel Valinor
Rivendell
Aug 5 2011, 7:43am
Post #592 of 601
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I agree that loads of hair seem to be a part of the dwarf culture obviously, but I think they've done it well with them in the movies. Some has loads of beard, some less, but still some kind of facial hair. But of course that's just my opinion XD I don't wanna force it on anyone - just voice it lol.
Oh I totally agree with you. I hope indeed they develope most of them, also those two since they do die. As long as they just don't pull a "Harry Potter" and suddenly you see characters you have become fond of is just dead. Speaking of, we don't "read" their deaths scenes in TH either do we?
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sueb1863
Rivendell
Aug 5 2011, 10:25am
Post #593 of 601
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It's mentioned after Thorin's death that Kili and FIli fell defending him, and they're buried with him under the mountain. Bilbo says farewell to them when he also says farewell to Thorin as he's departing, in a general sort of way, and that's about it.
I suspect PJ will flesh it out quite a bit! I think PJ will want the focus to be on Bilbo and Thorin, but I'm sure F&K won't get the 'oh by the way, they died too' blink and you miss it treatment!
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marillaraina
Rohan
Aug 6 2011, 4:12am
Post #594 of 601
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I suspect PJ will flesh it out quite a bit! I think PJ will want the focus to be on Bilbo and Thorin
Well when you think about it, Fili and Kili might even be a good way to flesh out the focus on Bilbo and Thorin. Fili and Kili are sometimes sympathetic towards Bilbo and in the end, while they stay with the dwarves, they do tend to agree, along with Balin, that perhaps this isn't the best way to handle the whole "treasure" thing.
So in a way, they could possibly be used as a sort of "caught in the middle" type of plot point. They are dwarves, and they certainly remain loyal to their uncle, but they do have some sympathy for other opinions.
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sarahb1863
Rivendell
Aug 6 2011, 3:19pm
Post #595 of 601
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Well when you think about it, Fili and Kili might even be a good way to flesh out the focus on Bilbo and Thorin. Fili and Kili are sometimes sympathetic towards Bilbo and in the end, while they stay with the dwarves, they do tend to agree, along with Balin, that perhaps this isn't the best way to handle the whole "treasure" thing.
So in a way, they could possibly be used as a sort of "caught in the middle" type of plot point. They are dwarves, and they certainly remain loyal to their uncle, but they do have some sympathy for other opinions.
Definitely. The fact that Kili and Fili basically disagree with Thorin's refusal to share the gold, yet defend him anyway and die doing it, is to me very tragic. I'm really hoping that PJ writes some dialogue that goes, in essence anyway, like this:
Bard: Wow, we could really use some of your gold to rebuild our town.
Thorin: Go stuff yourself! It's all ours.
Fili/Kili: Uncle, this is wrong! There's tons of gold and Bard killed Smaug. We should do the right thing and share it with him.
Thorin: Ah, you're just children, you don't understand, this is a matter of dwarf honor. All you two do is joke and sing. You didn't even care about the gold we got, you just took those silly useless harps!
Fili/Kili: The harps are cool!
Thorin: Ah, kids today. You two are just a couple of hippies! Grow a beard, son!
Fili/Kili stomp off
Later on, the dwarves are getting their armor on to go fight. Thorin's putting on his armor and look up. There's Kili and Fili, looking smokin' hot in their metal duds.
Thorin: What the hell? I thought you two were against all this!
Fili/Kili: We are, but you are our mother's brother and we swore to protect you. We can sing songs after all this is over.
Thorin: That's more like it. Let's go kick some goblin butt!
(the battle occurs and, sadly, the dwarves do not kick goblin butt. Thorin is badly wounded and realizes, after watching a LOT of death, that maybe this was a bad idea and he's going to lose. He gets another spear in the breadbasket and looks up to see Kili and Fili hacking away the goblins who are attacking him. Earlier this would have filled him with dwarfy pride, but he's bleeding from several orifices and full of pain and is suddenly, blazingly aware that his young hippie nephews are about to get killed. So NOT in the original plan! Suddenly all the gold in the world don't mean squat.)
Thorin: You crazy kids! Get away from here, it's hopeless!
But, no use. Fili and Kili have both seen that Thorin is gravely wounded and they won't budge away from him - he's their uncle and they swore to defend him no matter what. We switch to Haldir-death-slo-mo and Thorin watches in horror as both brothers fall. Maybe Kili is wounded first, Fili rushes to defend him and then gets stabbed, I dunno. But the upshot is, Thorin sees both of his sister's sons die defending HIS dream -which they didn't even support, in the end.
Not sure where it goes from here, but in my world Thorin's speech at the end about the world being a better place if it valued songs and cheer above hoarded gold takes on an added poignancy. And in my world, when Kili and Fili are shown on their funeral biers each is holding not a sword, but a gleaming golden harp. Sob!!
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marillaraina
Rohan
Aug 7 2011, 2:22am
Post #596 of 601
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I shouldn't laugh but the "Kids today" and You two are just a couple of hippies" cracks me up. :) Oh and "Go stuff yourself!" There needs to some comedy version where he says just that.
But yes, on a more serious note, I think that would not be a bad direction to take it. When you think about it, if part of the lesson being taught in the story is "Greed isn't good" and "Pride goeth before the fall"(so to speak) - then what better way to hit that home, for Thorin than the death of his nephews, a couple of young, likeable, good-hearted chaps who were also brave and loyal, who were his heirs though not his children and who died for him - when it should have been the other way around.
ETA: You know we are probably setting ourselves up for some disappointment. :)
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Aug 7 2011, 2:24am)
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sarahb1863
Rivendell
Aug 7 2011, 3:37am
Post #597 of 601
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I shouldn't laugh but the "Kids today" and You two are just a couple of hippies" cracks me up. :) Oh and "Go stuff yourself!" There needs to some comedy version where he says just that.
Oh, it's OK to laugh at those parts, they're supposed to be funny! :-) Glad ya like 'em.
But yes, on a more serious note, I think that would not be a bad direction to take it. When you think about it, if part of the lesson being taught in the story is "Greed isn't good" and "Pride goeth before the fall"(so to speak) - then what better way to hit that home, for Thorin than the death of his nephews, a couple of young, likeable, good-hearted chaps who were also brave and loyal, who were his heirs though not his children and who died for him - when it should have been the other way around.
Exactly! Fili and Kili are the sacrificial lambs to Thorin's greed. It doesn't need to be that melodramatic maybe, but if PJ works it in to some extent I'll be a happy camper. :-)
ETA: You know we are probably setting ourselves up for some disappointment. :)
Well, hey, that's what fanfic is for! I've written AUs before, I can do it again!
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Niniel Valinor
Rivendell
Aug 8 2011, 7:58am
Post #598 of 601
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Ah yeah sorry for laughing too. Your Thorin is hilarious hahaha. Goblin butts and kids these days and hippies... and go stuff yourself almost had me on the floor. Love it
(This post was edited by Niniel Valinor on Aug 8 2011, 7:58am)
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Niniel Valinor
Rivendell
Aug 9 2011, 8:23am
Post #600 of 601
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Only male Tolkien characters can get away with braids XD
And damnit is he smiling again? lol. Seen that fella' three times (Twice in prod. vid and one on the photo) and he's always smiling
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sueb1863
Rivendell
Aug 9 2011, 10:12am
Post #601 of 601
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Thanks for sharing it, sis! Can't wait to see Dean actually interacting with the other actors, hopefully in the next video blog...
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yeah, well...
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