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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
Does anybody actually like these moments in the films?
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Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 30 2011, 7:03am

Post #26 of 62 (569 views)
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Argh, yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

That's the one that really gets me and I just can't reconcile with it. There are other changes or scenes I'm not fond of, but that's the only one I just can't cope with. It's too wrong.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jun 30 2011, 7:06am

Post #27 of 62 (513 views)
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I agree completely. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My Website! ~ My artwork and photography at dA

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


RosieLass
Valinor


Jun 30 2011, 2:42pm

Post #28 of 62 (623 views)
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The only time I absolutely close my eyes and turn my head away... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is whenever there is a close-up of the disgusting hair on the hobbits' feet.

Otherwise, the scenes I don't like just make me roll my eyes or sigh with disappointment. Cool



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien


Jun 30 2011, 2:51pm

Post #29 of 62 (641 views)
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The one part I cannot stand is [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf in Moria! He had the chance to run away with the fellowship and be safe after the Balrog fell! I also dislike his whole attitude with Aragorn when he pushes him and yells, "Swords are no more use here!" and then later "Fly you fools!". For me, I find the wizard battle fascinating and fun to watch. In fact, I would have loved to see more of Gandalf's battle wizardry! Hopefully the Hobbit will be filled with it!

All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...


tiamy
Rivendell


Jun 30 2011, 4:39pm

Post #30 of 62 (565 views)
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A few more... [In reply to] Can't Post

FOTR
- the look on Lurtz face as he puts the last arrow in the bow that will fatally wound Boromir. Something about his hands and eyes feels girly.

ROTK
- Frodo's "ballerina" fall in Mordor


Darkstone
Immortal

Jun 30 2011, 4:57pm

Post #31 of 62 (564 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
FOTR
- the look on Lurtz face as he puts the last arrow in the bow that will fatally wound Boromir. Something about his hands and eyes feels girly.


I think you've stumbled onto something. I mean, where *are* the female Uruk-hai?



In Reply To
ROTK
- Frodo's "ballerina" fall in Mordor


I can't remember. Was it en dedans or en dehors? (I always get them confused.) Anyway, I can't fault him since most beginners tend to fall out of their pirouettes. Fortunately his little spin went well with his later speech about a wheel. Nice symbology!

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 30 2011, 5:00pm)


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jun 30 2011, 7:57pm

Post #32 of 62 (592 views)
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The one that annoys me and the only cut i would make to FotR is.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sam's drowning at the end of the film. Considering you've just had a hugely exciting battle scene and the emotionally powerful death of Boromir and have sat through three hours of pretty demanding viewing (the pace of FotR is just non-stop), this crappy piece of tagged on melodrama just seems so trite, so unnecessary, so repetitive (what? Another fake death?) that it ruins a veritably perfect film every single time and in fact seems to undermine the poignancy and emotional impact that Boromir's death and the breaking of the fellowship gives the film.

Dr Death


elvenhobbit
Rohan

Jun 30 2011, 8:39pm

Post #33 of 62 (563 views)
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The only bits I cant do with as the continuity doesnt make sense... [In reply to] Can't Post

Merry and Pippin escape the Uruk Hai - untied or tied? what the heck is going on with that scene

Barrels in the Hideout (Faramir) - are they there or are they not? The scene isnt clear here.

The share the load from Sam - i can see why its there but it isnt my favorite scene

Frodo's wake up calling names in slow mo - why???!!!


and I cant say I noticed the towel dried Gandalf beard - I get what u mean


but thats my only qualms....

-e-

Elven by name, Hobbit by nature

'Road lead ever on and on
down from the door where it began
now far ahead the road has gone
down from where all began' -FOTR-

and through all the world has changed
the ages come and go with time
and yet those remain unchanged
unto they journey westward
over the sea...

and through it all we remain strong and true
for eternity is bonds unbroken
beyond the sea...

into the realm of TORN!


wheres breakfast?

beauty is not skin deep, it is as deep as the wish of the beholder.
fore! fore! wassup!



eralkfang
Lorien


Jun 30 2011, 10:10pm

Post #34 of 62 (522 views)
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Well… [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's one at the very least—I've nicknamed her Lady Fabulous, what with her headgear and such. (They might call her Boy George behind the scenes, but she's always a woman to me!)


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Jul 1 2011, 4:17am

Post #35 of 62 (563 views)
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I have to say I'm amazed... [In reply to] Can't Post

That noone else has mentioned Weathertop. IMO, both one of the worst-adapted and worst scenes (cinematically) in the series. Close to unwatchable.


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 1 2011, 9:43am

Post #36 of 62 (550 views)
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Well i don't think anyone really understands how you could come to that conclusion [In reply to] Can't Post

The book's version is actually rather underwhelming if you ask me- taking place not in the ruins themselves but in a dell halfway down the hill, the witch king coming up and stabbing Frodo before being driven off by Aragorn just waving a fiery stick at him. The film's version by comparison was rather fantastic. For a start it makes best dramatic usage of the environment turning a tumble of ruined stones into an almost cage-like arena of pillars and impassive statues with the wraiths materialising between them, advancing on the Hobbits in perfect synchronisation- there's a wonderful shot of the hobbits giving ground against this towering wall of wraiths before as one they level their swords and close in for the kill. Frodo's vision of them in the wraith world is pretty much perfectly true to the book, and when Aragorn does come to their rescue, at least the wraiths put up some kind of fight rather than just legging it. It certainly helps confirm Aragorn's allegiance and heroism in going toe to toe with all five of them and sets up the wraith's immortality in showing them for all intents and purposes 'killed' before reappearing shortly after chasing Arwen.

No opinion is invalid of course, but i think you're very much in the minority and many (myself included) can't really understand what you could have against that scene.

Dr Death


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jul 1 2011, 1:29pm

Post #37 of 62 (514 views)
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I guess that just proves [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien's point that he makes in the Prologue to LotR:
"It is perhaps not possible in a long tale to please everybody at all points, nor to displease everybody at the same points;... the passages or chapters that are to some a blemish are all by others specially approved."
The drowning scene is one of my favourites in the whole movie, and for me is what brings the emotional roller coaster to its necessary conclusion - because no matter what great battles may have been fought, in the end it's the faith and endurance of simple hobbits that is the true heart of the tale. I'd be willing to have any amount of orc-hacking cut out in order to keep that (although I'm perfectly content to have the orc-hacking left in for those who enjoy that kind of thing...)

Tongue

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



kzer_za
Lorien

Jul 1 2011, 1:35pm

Post #38 of 62 (504 views)
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One common criticism of movie Weathertop is that Frodo doesn't put up enough of a fight [In reply to] Can't Post

I sort of agree (he could have at least hacked at the Witch-king's feet), but it doesn't really bother me. I'm happy with the scene overall.


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Jul 1 2011, 1:41pm)


Darkstone
Immortal

Jul 1 2011, 3:06pm

Post #39 of 62 (511 views)
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Similarly...... [In reply to] Can't Post

...there has been criticism that Boromir just sat on his knees while Lurtz prepared to kill him. Some feel he should have lurched forward and hit Lurtz, or bit his ankle (I am not making that up), or something, anything, in a last gesture of defiance, anything than just waiting like cattle to be killed. (Personally I've always felt that would be a bit too Monty Python Black Knight-ish.)

On the other hand others see great courage and determination in him fighting to simply keep conscious and erect as well as keep eye contact in the face of certain death.

Different strokes.

Frodo's failure does serve to emphasize the terror-inducing power of the Nazgul, which Jackson tried to show with Maggot's dog, the squirming bugs (at the shortcut to mushrooms), Butterbur's terrified cowering, and M&P's total ineffectiveness.

With the failure of his physical courage, I've always taken it as a sign of Frodo's great mental courage that he was able to keep it together and conceive of the off-the-cuff plan to put on the ring so he could somewhat dominate the Nazgul, thus they could not kill him as they had originally intended to, but instead they had to resort to turning him into a fellow wraith to get the ring. Clever, and courageous, Frodo.

I know that's just me, but hey, that way I can enjoy the scene while everyone else can't! Neener-neener-neener!!

******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.

Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?

So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Jul 1 2011, 3:34pm

Post #40 of 62 (492 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

The scene in the books is genuinely frightening. It has a silent horror to it. These half-seen forms in the night advance upon the group, in a cold and desolate wilderness. There are shadows and faint screams. It is difficult to know what is happening, but it is horror. Real horror.

The film turned this scene into a battle royale action scene which has little to no horror about it. Let me count the ways in which this scene fell flat.

1. The staging is awfully contrived. The hobbits inexplicably run up the stairs to a very "stagey"arena, where they are more exposed than they would otherwise be (better to face the Nazgul in a narrower spot where they cannot attack en masse.)

2. On top of this contrived staging, you have the worst-lit scene in the film. It is nighttime, yet the place is bathed in green light and almost glowing, at one point with an almost strobe-light effect, as if this was some sort of medieval wrestling match. Really poorly lit. The lighting makes the Nazgul look absolutely silly, and the entire scene feel false and not scary in the least.

3. The subsequent battle with Aragorn is a farce. Instead of the more chilling, almost spiritual battle that occurs in the books, we get a dumb action sequence which ends, preposterously, with a torch embedded in a Nazgul's face! That Nazgul then runs off flailing like a fool.

4. Now jumping back to the wraith-world. Consistent with the book? Sorry, but the wraith world in the book was described as a cold and silent world, where the Nazgul in their true forms came into focus. PJ's version had an over-the-top cosmic wind, streaky craziness of it, loud whooshing, etc, making an already loud scene even louder, when it should have been quietly horrifying.

In short, the scene should have been genuinely scary, in a "we are out in the wilderness at night, and something worse than death is out there" sort of way. We got an amateur action sequence instead.

Just my opinion, but I have heard lots of people deride this sequence. Certainly don't get the sense that I'm in the minority on it. It was, in fact, one of the first scenes PJ filmed, so perhaps they hadn't gotten the hang of it yet?


weaver
Half-elven

Jul 1 2011, 4:22pm

Post #41 of 62 (503 views)
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I like both versions... [In reply to] Can't Post

As written, I agree it's genuinely scary, and makes a good horror story. But it's like Shelob's Lair, or the Paths of the Dead in the books -- most of the horror comes from what you "can't" see, which is sort of hard to convey on film, where you have to show something. Jackson changed all of these sequences, to make them more "visual", I guess, and of the three, Weathertop works best for me. I like the arena-ish setting with the silent statues watching over everything, the synchronized movements of the Nazgul closing in on the poor hobbits, and think it helps to show Frodo struggle here, so that later, when he takes the Ring, you know he's doing it with full knowledge of what he's up against, making that scene stronger. And I'm a big fan of the Aragorn fight at the end -- he could save me from five Nazgul anytime he wants (Smile)..I could watch that bit over and over again (and have!)

That said, if Weathertop as written was one of your favorite book sequences, I could see you being disappointed with not seeing it play out closer to the book on screen. I feel that way about the Gandalf/Witchking and Mouth of Sauron encounters in the films, so am glad those were EE scenes, rather than a key part of the TE's.

And now you have me curious -- what scenes do you like in the films? Were there some that gave you exactly the book to screen experience you were hoping for?

Weaver




Darkstone
Immortal

Jul 1 2011, 4:40pm

Post #42 of 62 (485 views)
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An interesting thing.... [In reply to] Can't Post

…is that was Mortensen’s first scene. He’d been in NZ just long enough for swordmaster Bob Anderson to give him some quick basics, but he pulled it off quite nicely I thought.

******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.

Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?

So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 1 2011, 6:49pm

Post #43 of 62 (523 views)
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That criticism extends to the whole trilogy, actually. [In reply to] Can't Post

When challenged, Frodo mostly waves Sting and then falls down. He falls down a lot over the course of the story. Some years back, someone proposed a drinking game in which one took a shot every time Frodo fell down, but concluded that it might result in total incapacitation far before the end of the story. Tongue The only real exception that comes to mind is the fight in Moria where he stays on his feet until speared by the troll. He isn't really shown fighting like the others, though. I have sometimes wondered if this is just a factor of the editing; that perhaps they shot scenes of Frodo fighting but just never used them, or if they just sort of planned that others would fight and Frodo would fall. In any case, a little less probably would have been more.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Darkstone
Immortal

Jul 1 2011, 6:56pm

Post #44 of 62 (505 views)
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He falls 34 times. [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course, he's just a gentlehobbit, not Frodo Schwarzenbaggens.

Still, there is great courage in endurance. It's not how many times you fall that counts, but how many times you get back up. Frodo falls 34 times, and he gets back up 34 times.

This means something.

******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.

Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?

So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 1 2011, 7:25pm

Post #45 of 62 (477 views)
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If you really want to make it fun [In reply to] Can't Post

Play the drinking game and end with asking the participants to stand up. If they can stand and stay up they have officially bettered Frodo, if not then they must live in shame of falling over more easily than Elijah 'wilty' Wood.

Dr Death


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 1 2011, 8:28pm

Post #46 of 62 (476 views)
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Well your complaints are valid [In reply to] Can't Post

But i shall do my best to defend the scene point by point.

1) There are a number of reasons the hobbits could have run up those stairs. First and foremost, just to put some distance between them and the wraiths- when people are in mortal peril they tend to think very immediately. In addition i think there's sound reasons to run up the stairs; as it stands they were pretty much trapped against the rock wall with only the narrow staircase as an escape route (which may very well have been blocked by any of the remaining four wraiths to their knowledge) if the wraiths attacked them in the bay, so seizing the initiative and heading for the top of the tower would ensure they couldn't be cut off at the stairs and provide them with more options of possible escape route (more or less 360 degrees).

2) In all performance art scenes set at night are invariably shot in wholly unrealistic levels of light so that people can see what's going on. I don't know the exact science but i believe blue is the lowest chromatic colour or some such meaning that things can be made to look dark if coloured with blue even if they're actually quite light. I must assume there lies the origin of the green lighting. It is still lighter than most nights but there have been times when i've looked outside in the middle of the night and if sky is clear and the moon is strong you can see things lit quite remarkably by the moon almost like a weird alien sunset- pale and (from my window at least) rather green. I'd argue that far from the worst lit scene, it's one of the best- i'd rather have a go at the sun-strobed pelennor even when it should be under Mordor's shadow.

3) I really don't remember there being much of a battle in the book. In the context of the film it was almost necessary- you had this huge opening piece of action and since then there's been an awful lot of running, after all of that, with the introduction of a plainly savvy warrior type you needed something of a skirmish (i think battle royale is a bit of an overstatement) to let him prove his worth and as i said before- confirm his allegience. If there was some kind of 'cold war' you'd think the wraiths retreated because Aragorn was on their side- he had to see them off good and properly to confirm who he was fighting for. The brand in the face was a kind of dramatic way to conclude the fight and show Aragorn's down and dirty practicality in fighting (the only thing i wish is that since there's supposed to be 'nothing there' physically, that the brand itself had actually dropped rather than sticking out of the wraith's face as he fled.

4) Well i suppose the wraith world is rather love it or loathe it- i think it would have been a disappointment if it was just the real world only duller with less sound- i mean when Frodo puts on the Ring at weathertop it's kind of the climax of the scene- the critical mass point- if it suddenly went quiet people would think the speakers in the cinema had cut out or something. I think it's quite fitting that when Frodo puts on the Ring to escape this horrible chaotic situation it actually becomes worse. It's supposed to be uncomfortable, it's supposed to be excessive- PJ is trying to stress that you really don't want to spend your time with this thing on.

Throughout writing this i've actually been looking at screen captures on framecaplib.com of the scene and replaying it in my mind, and i'd actually go so far as to say it's one of my favourites. It might not be particularly scary in a kind of 'classic horror' way but it's fantastically effective as a piece of cinema and gloriously sinister. It's one of the few places in all the films that PJ actually manages to achieve the kind of 'mental snapshot' iconic moments that he said he wanted- again the moments with the wraiths' synchronised murderousness, the wonderful sound effect of the kind of 'stone door opening' as the Witch King turns his head towards Frodo, the way they move- at once as solid and efficient and yet unpredictable and undulating. I've got to admit i'm tempted just to delete this entire post and replace with with a simple 'you're wrong' but i guess it's just different strokes for different folks.

Dr Death


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Jul 1 2011, 9:02pm

Post #47 of 62 (459 views)
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I think it's hilarious and awesome at the same time. [In reply to] Can't Post

It makes me giggle sometimes, and sometimes I think it just looks "cool". It depends on what mood I'm in.Tongue

I have similar feelings about the slow motion thing with Frodo seeing the Fellowship after he wakes up. I'm a sap for that kind of stuff, so usually some of the silliness in that scene is outweighed by everything else.


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Jul 1 2011, 9:08pm

Post #48 of 62 (475 views)
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Sometimes that bothers me. [In reply to] Can't Post

But I think him resisting the Witch King's grasp rather than giving in and letting him grab the Ring is at least a decent substitute for yelling something in Elvish and stabbing at him.


little mouse
Rivendell

Jul 1 2011, 10:23pm

Post #49 of 62 (503 views)
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Arwen saving Frodo in FotR [In reply to] Can't Post

 


kzer_za
Lorien

Jul 2 2011, 12:42am

Post #50 of 62 (460 views)
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Frodo actually does fight back a bit against the cave troll // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Jul 2 2011, 12:52am)

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