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Lady Brynna
The Shire
May 31 2011, 1:21pm
Post #1 of 129
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Are you a Homeschooler or Not
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I've heard that quite a few homeschoolers like Lord of the Rings. But I'm not sure. I'm a Homeschooler myself so I just wanted to put this up there.
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Patty
Immortal
May 31 2011, 1:54pm
Post #3 of 129
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Are you a person being schooled at home or...
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a person who is schooling someone at home?
Homeschooling always struck me as something that would be detrimental to the students' socialization with his/her peers, but I imagine the moms and dads address that issue in other ways, like through their churches or putting the child in other social groups?
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Lady Brynna
The Shire
May 31 2011, 2:16pm
Post #4 of 129
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.......someone who schools their own kid at home or is schooled at home. They do their studies at home and they have no homework because all their work is at home.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
May 31 2011, 3:42pm
Post #5 of 129
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It's nice to know there are other home schoolers here. I know a lot of home schooled ringers.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
May 31 2011, 3:47pm
Post #6 of 129
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I promise! While you may occasionally find some who never leave home and don't know anybody, this is a very rare exception. Nearly all the homeschoolers I know are VERY social (I'm probably the "least social" of all my friends, I don't have FB or a cellphone).
I have tons of friends from church, our home school group, Bible quizzing, youth group, and many other activities.
Plus, I've noticed that many home schoolers have a much easier time relating with people of different age groups, not just their peers.
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FantasyFan
Rohan
May 31 2011, 4:39pm
Post #7 of 129
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All three of my children were homeschooled through high-school graduation. It doesn't fit into every family's lifestyle, but it was the best thing for us.
All three are successful college students now (one going for his PhD in astrophysics) and well-adjusted people. We are all geeks in my family, in various ways, although I don't know how well homeschooling correaltes wtih being a Tolkien fan, or how well general geekiness correaltes with successful homeschooling.
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Patty
Immortal
May 31 2011, 4:52pm
Post #8 of 129
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I missed this earlier, but welcome to TORn, Lady Brynna and Gollum the Great!
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stay and chat with us a while--it's the ONLY place to be during the run-up to The Hobbit.
P.S. GtheG--I don't do facebook, either.
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RosieLass
Valinor
May 31 2011, 5:01pm
Post #9 of 129
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It's one of those things that really depends on...
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...why the parents decide to homeschool.
There were a lot of homeschooled kids at my church, and I've known others from various places.
The parents who were homeschooled to make sure their kids were getting a quality education that they wouldn't get in public schools also generally made sure their kids were involved in extra curricular activities, so they had opportunities to develop their social skills.
Unfortunately, there were also some who were homeschooled to shelter them away from the real world, so they got neither socialization nor a quality education. And when they got out into the real world, they had absolutely no clue how to cope. 
(This post was edited by RosieLass on May 31 2011, 5:02pm)
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GAndyalf
Valinor
May 31 2011, 6:03pm
Post #10 of 129
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It very much requires two parents working together as it is a LOT of work even in this modern era where there are more resources and support groups than ever before to help one along.
Sadly my son's mother and I weren't able to work together and now as a single dad I do not have the time to manage it.
I find that homeschooled typically are both on the upper-edge of intelligence because those 'special needs' students have to have both talented teaching AND extensive psych care in their background they tend to be put in schools and also because those are the children not typically served by standard curricula. Those are also the ones that typically appreciate fantasy better because they grasp what isn't immediately in front of them better than their peers.
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Magpie
Immortal
May 31 2011, 6:28pm
Post #11 of 129
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sometimes there a like homeschool 'co-ops' for sports,etc.
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Some get together for chances at team and/or physical activities and some will work out arrangements to be on public school athletic teams.
We had a group of homeschooled kids that arranged for some of our folk dancers to teach folk dance to them (at their location). And some come to our Folk Dance center to dance with the general crowd there.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
May 31 2011, 7:20pm
Post #12 of 129
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Actually, I've lurked around for a couple of years and have loved TORN (my family is sick of hearing about it) But today when I saw the home school-themed poll, I thought, "Egads and Gazooks! The honour of home schooling be at stake! To the forums!"
So I joined.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 31 2011, 7:29pm
Post #13 of 129
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I graduated many years ago, but once a homeschooler, always a homeschooler, right?
I think many homeschoolers are avid readers (or have no choice ) so it wouldn't surprise me to find a high percentage on any classic book discussion forum, not just LOTR.
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Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor
May 31 2011, 8:03pm
Post #15 of 129
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Our neighbors across the street homeschool.
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They have two boys who are about junior high age, and two girls who are about young elementary age. Both parents volunteer to coach in the local youth soccer league and The Little Goblin was on one of their teams last year. The dad is also the local Scout Master, and both boys are in scouts. I assume the girls are in scouts, too, but I don't know.
There is also a local swimming league that has a program for homeschoolers to get their P.E. requirement fulfilled.
Then, I've also known homeschoolers who are hard-core, anti-social, the-world-is-a-horrible-place-and-that's-why-our-kids-will-no-be-out-in-it kind of people. 
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Wraith Buster
Gondor
May 31 2011, 8:22pm
Post #16 of 129
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I just "graduated" last year.
I have a lot of stuff I want to do in my life so school books just seem liked such a drain unless you really want to learn something specific. That's why my mom, sister and I made a pact thing. The deal was we would finish the 12th Grade curriculum. Then once we we did it school would be over. (Although you never stop learning.)
Onward! 
(This post was edited by Wraith Buster on May 31 2011, 8:27pm)
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Wraith Buster
Gondor
May 31 2011, 8:30pm
Post #17 of 129
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I don't like about being home schooled is that people pigeon hole you a lot of the time. It doesn't really matter what it is. Just name something that you think of when "home schooler" comes to mind... That's my only gripe.
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Lady Brynna
The Shire
May 31 2011, 9:20pm
Post #18 of 129
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I wrote this post because I wanted to find out how many homeschoolers were on here. But I also wrote it because I thought someone might spread the word about homeschooling being awesome not bad. Thanks Gollum the Great. Everyone says their not social but they are we homeschoolers have groups that meet all the time too do stuff together we also do it in church. So thanks again.
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
May 31 2011, 9:48pm
Post #19 of 129
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Not being able to connect with peers has happened to me before and it was because
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the kids my age were either extremely whiny about nothing or bouncing off the walls like the entire world was a circus. My parents raised me to be mature and behave myself in public...and most other kids aren't so, yeah, there was a gap but, I don't really think that was technically a "bad" thing.
I'm not saying all kids were wild but, for the most part I enjoyed playing with my sister instead of getting yelled at to "come play" where most of the time they weren't really playing, they were getting into trouble.
I've seen lazy homeschoolers...I've seen people who go way over the top and make their kids walking encyclopedias by age ten. (I guess that's not a bad thing but, shesh, that makes everybody else look really stupid!  )
I don't think there's anything wrong about shielding kids from most of the evil in the world but, I do think they should be taught how to fend for themselves so that when they become adults they know what to do. I mean half of the crud they teach in public schools is ridiculous. (No kid should start learning the differance between boys and girls and be exposed to homosexuality in PRESCHOOL. Let kids be kids! They'll have a chance to figure that out when their adults!) Plus they waste time teaching kids that and have to give them homework to do after school. It doesn't make any sense to me...
Another quick rant: my mom was talking to a public school teacher who told her she couldn't teach her kids at home beause she didn't have the patience. I thought "Uh, what are teaching other people's kids for??"
Also, for some reason teachers expect homeschoolers to finish all their books and grill them to make sure "they know what they should.". The funny think is my public schooled friend told me they hardly ever finish a book at her school. Hmm...so let me gt this straight...it's okay if you don't finish your books if your in a public institution but, if you're homeschooling and you don't, it immediately makes you a TERRIBLE parent. Okay! Gotcha!
Anyway, that's my five cents... And yes, I was homeschooled!
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 1 2011, 12:22am
Post #20 of 129
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Exactly! Most of the time I find it a lot easier to talk to adults because everyone my age is texting!!!!!!! It drives me crazy, since eye-contact was taught in my family.
And just so it's all clear, most home schoolers are perfectly normal people - at least as normal as anyone ever is. In my family, we're not over-the-top, obsessively-sheltered, ridiculously smart, amish people! (not that I have anything against Amish people, it's just that when you're homeschooled people automatically think you must all wear dresses and bake your own bread).
I think the pros definitely outweigh the cons for homeschooling. As Gimli's Box noted, why do kindergartners need sex ed? About the closest thing my sisters have ever had to sex education was when my baby brother was born and they all wanted to know how my parents knew it was a boy. 
Homeschooling isn't about "over-sheltering" kids so they're unprepared to face the world. Believe me, they'll pick up a lot of bad stuff anyways. But I think it's worth something when my six year-old sister doesn't know any swear words.
(This post was edited by Gollum the Great on Jun 1 2011, 12:26am)
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 1 2011, 1:00am
Post #21 of 129
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I like you! Seems like you've got a good head on your shoulders.//
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jun 1 2011, 5:45am
Post #22 of 129
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I was never homeschooled myself...
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But I do know that homeschoolers have social outlets. Some public and private schools will even allow homeschoolers to join in their sports teams, drama clubs, or other such activities.
There are right ways and wrong ways to do homeschooling, and I have a few friends who say they were "homeschooled," but they really weren't. They essentially were taken out of school by their parents and not really taught at home. But also, there are some great statistics on many homeschoolers scoring higher on tests and having excellent acceptance rates into the colleges of their choice.
There's a great book called "The Teenage Liberation Handbook," which has some interesting views on how teens can essentially take control of their education and have a very valuable experience learning outside of traditional mainstream education.
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jun 1 2011, 5:57am
Post #23 of 129
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Kids aren't taught sex ed in kindergarten. At least, not in the state of California. That doesn't happen in the public school system until 5th grade (unless that has changed, but I doubt it.)
I don't see any reason why young kids shouldn't know that homosexuality exists. Two of my cousins were raised by their lesbian mom, and they certainly had to grow up understanding that it exists. I don't think young kids necessarily will understand it the way a teenager or an adult does, and certainly, anything to do with educating any child about any topic regarding sexuality should be age and developmentally appropriate. I mean, most kids, by the time they start kindergarten, know that girls have different body parts than boys, and that is perfectly age appropriate.
I'm sorry, I just felt I had to comment. I've studied enough about child development to know that kids do have enough awareness about their bodies from pretty early on and that there are some things that they're going to know possibly even before they start school. No, they're not going to know the mechanics of everything, or even the social politics of sexuality, but they are aware that they have a body and different body parts, which is perfectly normal.
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jun 1 2011, 6:01am
Post #24 of 129
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Well, the first word that came to mind was "creative."
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But then again, I have a lot of respect for homeschooling, and most of the people I know of (whether personally or have heard about) tend to be very creative people. Also, they seem to be more self-driven than average.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 1 2011, 9:14am
Post #25 of 129
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Why would homeschooled people be any different on the LOTR point?
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Unless you are saying that proportionately they are more into LOTR than the broader public?
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Lady Brynna
The Shire
Jun 1 2011, 2:29pm
Post #26 of 129
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Hey,
Thanks for all these posts I didn't think this many people would post.
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 1 2011, 4:44pm
Post #27 of 129
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I understand that Kids know there's a difference between
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Boys and girls and sometimes at a very young age. I see nothing wrong with that. I mean how many times have some little girl told a boy he *can't* be the mom when they're playing house "because he's a boy"? Knowing that boys and girls are different is fine, it's apart of life but, when you should be letting four year olds play with dolls and run around outside shooting invisible enemies they're teaching them that "if you are attracted to a boy and you're a boy, that's okay!". A four year old can hardly handle their emotions and need their parents help to understand things like why vegetables are good for you and you have to eat them. I don't think they should be learning how it's okay if you like a boy.
Sure they can "know what that means" but, they don't understand it fully to be able to make mature choices. And I'm speaking from my own experience. I "knew what x meant" but when I got older I was able to really know what x meant and how z played into it and why y was also important.
I was watching the news the other day at a friends house (btw, they're in the 50s...lol. My mom, sister and I visit them every Thursday) and they were talking about some schools beginning to teach preschoolers and up about why boys and girls are different. They are telling them about bugs that "change" to become a different gender and how it's okay. And they were going to start exposing kids to homosexuality but, "at the approperiate age" which they said was five or six.
I'm not saying kids should sit in a self contained box and not meet anybody that's "different". But, shouldn't we at least wait until they're old enough to understand it fully and make mature decisions about it? I know you could argue that the age comes to people at different times. But then I say let's have the parents tell them when they think they're ready instead of having a school spill the beans to any kid under five within earshot.
I'm just saying my opinion...so I hope it doesn't come off as an attack.
I usually just say what I think and joke that I have five cents not two because my name if Nic. Short for nickel, ya know!
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Wraith Buster
Gondor
Jun 1 2011, 4:48pm
Post #28 of 129
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Not just with LOTR.
Maybe it's just the peeps I'm around that try to pigeon hole others. You guys aren't like that.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 1 2011, 4:56pm
Post #29 of 129
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wait a minute - how do you know I even have a head? or shoulders?
Just kidding. I do have a head (and shoulders). whether it's a good one or not, I couldn't say...
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Patty
Immortal
Jun 1 2011, 5:03pm
Post #30 of 129
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Just so long as your head is "on your shoulders"
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and you are not carrying it around under them.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 1 2011, 5:07pm
Post #31 of 129
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If you've ever read The Hiding Place, you may remember this (Corrie was just a little girl when she asked this):
"And so seated next to my father in the train compartment, I suddenly asked, "Father, what is sexsin?"
He turned to look at me, as he always did when answering a question, but to my surprise he said nothing. At last he stood up, lifted his traveling case off the floor and set it on the floor.
Will you carry it off the train, Corrie?" he said.
I stood up and tugged at it. It was crammed with the watches and spare parts he had purchased that morning.
It's too heavy," I said.
Yes," he said, "and it would be a pretty poor father who would ask his little girl to carry such a load. It's the same way, Corrie, with knowledge. Some knowledge is too heavy for children. When you are older and stronger, you can bear it. For now you must trust me to carry it for you."
There are so many bad things in the world. You can't shield your kids from them forever. It wouldn't be good if you did. Home schooling isn't about hiding the harsh facts of life from kids. But there is absolutely no reason a five year old needs to know about a lot of things that are going on. They'll find it out eventually. Let them enjoy innocence while they can.
This turned out to be a great topic, Lady Brynna. And it's really neat to see all these people who are home schooled! This might sound kind of wierd, but I've lurked around TORN for a long time, and I already feel like I know a lot of you. So it's fun to see users I've read for a long time saying they're home schooled (for example, Gimli's Box, I've loved your username for a long time. It's awesome! and you were home schooled! so cool!)
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 1 2011, 5:14pm
Post #34 of 129
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I've read that quote before but forgot it. Very fitting. Thanks for sharing!
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You seem to fit into TORN perfectly. It's good to finally "met" you! Stick around!
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 1 2011, 7:23pm
Post #35 of 129
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I already love it. One of the things that's attracted me to TORN is how friendly everyone is. I very rarely see a post the admins have to edit (except for oversised pics, which seems to be the norm)
by the way, has anyone seen Tim Hawkins' "The Homeschool Family" video? You might have to be a homeschooler to appreciate a lot of it, but it's a hoot! Now whenever we go out in public, we arrange ourselves in age order and march, just because it draws some pretty fun looks (I have five younger siblings)
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 1 2011, 7:35pm
Post #36 of 129
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Yeah I've seen it...but I only have one sis so, we don't get too many weird looks.
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She's Wraith Buster on here.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 1 2011, 8:00pm
Post #37 of 129
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My wife's aunt homeschooled. Those poor children walked straight into abusive relationships when they got big enough. That's how much they were properly socialized. And then they homeschooled *their* kids. But *those* kids left home as soon as they could and worked hard to get a proper education. (One worked two jobs slinging burgers to support herself and her siblings, and went to school too!) And now *those* kids are making darn sure their kids get public schooled.
Mom always said if you really want children to get a proper education, attend all school board and PTA meetings.
Not to say homeschooling is a bad thing if it's done right.
BTW, in my day it seemed to me kids only knew about the Lord of the Rings because they saw other kids carrying the book around in school. They'd read it and like it, carry it around in school, and other kids would see it, like it, rinse, repeat.
Not bad for a school in the worst neighborhood in Dallas. (We had the best track team around because South Oak Cliff kids were already trained to start running when they heard a gun go off.)
I heard it's gotten even worse. A couple of years ago the pricipal and staff were caught staging cage fights between students for punishment and their own amusement.
So yeah, maybe it's best to home school....
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 1 2011, 8:04pm
Post #38 of 129
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It must be awesome to have a sister who's also into LOTR!
The sis closest to my age isn't super huge on LOTR, she tried to convince herself she was a starwars fan for a while, but fortunately thought better of it and is still looking for something to be geeky about.
I think my best hope is my second sister, she's big on reading and loves fantasy. She's still a little young for LOTR, and I don't want to force it on her, but I'm pretty sure she'll love it. She's already read Farmer Giles of Ham and Roverandom, and I did a little study on "Smith of Wootton Major" with her for school.
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 1 2011, 8:11pm
Post #39 of 129
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Yeah it's awesome! We're really close too so, we totally geek out on each other.
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You just have to start talking to your sister all the time about LOTR. Keep feeding her little bits of facts and soon she'll want to read it and watch the movies. Be tricksy!
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 1 2011, 8:19pm
Post #40 of 129
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My mom is supper big on reality. And common sense. And reality. Did I say common sense?
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So yeah. Plus she said she was raising adults not kids. And we talk a really lot about everything.
I think that's why some some homeschoolers, once they're adults, go out and get themselves into trouble 'cause they don't talk with their parents.
But, I think it's kind of unfair to say they got into abusive situations BECAUSE they were homeschooled. Public schooled kids do that too and people don't say it was BECAUSE they were public schooled.
Both my parents grew up in public school and have seen some stuff. I'd ask their opinion if I didn't feel I knew about the subject enough to make a educated decision.
But, that's just me.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 1 2011, 8:23pm
Post #41 of 129
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Yes, there are "home school" families who don't do such a great job. and they're the ones who make it hard for the rest of us, because they're the ones who always seem to make the news. I'm sorry for those kids.
But I think the problem isn't "socialization". I mean, think about pioneer families. They wouldn't see any other people for often years at a time. Yet a lot of them turned out ok.
I think the problem is when kids aren't taught how to deal with situations properly. My parents aren't just teaching us what to think, they're teaching us how to think.
My parents didn't just choose homeschooling because they hoped it would make us smarter (it doesn't :). It's because they wanted to be the ones to teach us right from wrong. They wanted to "train us up in the way we should go, so when we are old, we will not turn from it."
If the parents are isolating the kids without teaching them how to deal with life, then yes, there is a problem.
But that's not what the majority of home schoolers are like! Most home school parents are doing their best to make sure their kids get a good education AND are prepared for life.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 1 2011, 9:09pm
Post #42 of 129
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Having a good relationship with your parents is so important, whether you're homeschooled or not. And siblings! It's NOT easy (not that it's ever MY fault when we fight   ).
But if I went to public school, I'd hardly ever see my family! And I would miss so much of my sib's growing up! When you're home schooled, you get to be there every step of the way. It's so fun!
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jun 2 2011, 6:46am
Post #43 of 129
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Well, some of what we are talking about is value, some is fact.
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First off, let me say that I'm not offended, I just don't agree with you based on science, psychology, and my own personal values.
The reality is, in nature there are some animals that can change gender. This is fact. Teaching kids this isn't teaching them to be homosexual. It's teaching them that in nature, in species that aren't even human, this exists. And animals who can change gender aren't even homosexual. They just change gender. Human beings can't spontaneously change gender, so teaching kids that it happens in other species doesn't mean it will make them want to become transgendered, much less homosexual.
Now, personally, I don't think it's wrong to teach kids that homosexuality exists. Maybe it's because I grew up around it. Knowing that homosexuality exists didn't make me gay (as I am most definitely straight), and it didn't involve me having to learn too much about sex before I was ready. It didn't even make me question my sexuality at all. Also, I have friends who are gay, lesbian, or bi who have told me that they knew they were gay since they were very small children. Can you imagine how alienating it was for them to grow up being told that the way they felt was not normal? So when it comes to my personal values, I don't think it's wrong for children to know it exists. And if it's a topic that comes up, it should be explained in age appropriate terms.
I think the problem is that a lot of people assume that being a member of the LGBT community is all about who you have sex with. I really doubt the people I know who are LGBT spend all day thinking about sex and who they have sex with. So if a kid has two mommies or two daddies, does that mean that kid is exposed to sex all the time? Absolutely not. So what's wrong with them going to school and having the other kids understand that having two mommies or two daddies isn't necessarily a bad thing? And what about the incredibly high rate of LGBT teen suicides? The major contributor to that is bullying. Wouldn't there be less bullying of those LGBT teens if understanding and tolerance were taught in schools? In fact, our very own Gandalf, Sir Ian McKellan, helped start an organization called Stonewall to teach anti-homophobia education. He doesn't want kids today to grow up with the biases he's experienced in his life.
The hard thing about this topic is that it is such a heated one. There are so many different views, whether based on life experience, religion, general fear, confusion... I think it's pretty clear you have a viewpoint, and it's quite possible that there's nothing I can say here that may help you see a different point of view on the subject. But I share it because I've known so many wonderful people in my life who have suffered because of people who aren't willing to open their minds up to learn a little more about what's really behind the label.
Maybe I've just gotten to a point in life where I've seen that there is so much negativity and hate in the world, it makes me question why people are so against teaching children that it's okay to love someone, no matter what shape or form they come in.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 2 2011, 3:24pm
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Public schooled kids do that too and people don't say it was BECAUSE they were public schooled.
On the contrary, I would say so.
I think the institutionalized sexual harrassement tolerated in so many public schools today can so destroy self-esteem that it's like admistrators are deliberately training kids to relate to the other gender solely through abusive relationships, males as the abusers and females as the abused.
For that reason alone I'd be very tempted to home school my kids, though well leavened by the cautionary examples of my wife's family.
One wonders if it's like the old Socratean caution: No matter which you chose, you will regret it.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 2 2011, 5:21pm
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I mean this from the bottom of my heart,
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I will never regret being homeschooled, and my parents will never regret homeschooling me or my siblings.
I'm not saying homeschooling is for everyone, or that it's the only way. A lot of my friends are public schooled and are just fine (whatever that means?)
I really don't think sexual harrasment has anything to do with where you go to school. It depends on the choices the individual makes.
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 2 2011, 5:34pm
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I like being able to discuss things without hating each other for it so,
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This is really cool!
Ultimately I know animals change gender. It is a fact. It has a place in biology.
Schools should be in place to teach kids about facts not choices in lifestyles. Although homosexuality is a fact it doesn't teach them any thing that will help them grow up to be productive adults that can support themselves in life.
Choices in lifestyle are just that- choices. Those are personal things that should be decided outside of learning. If they want to learn about it they should do that on their spare time by getting a book from the library or looking it up on the Internet.
Plus I don't really want to pay for five year olds to learn about gender differences and how that plays into your lifestyle choices when they could be learning something like math or how to read with my tax money. That's my hard earned money and they're not even learning something that would help them get a job.
And then they still come home with a hours worth of homework. Maybe if we dropped the extra stuff they would have more time at home to spend with their parents who could help them understand why they feel the way they do if they feel like they are "different".
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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven
Jun 2 2011, 5:48pm
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Growing up gay, asexual, transgender, or straight and cisgendered isn't a choice. People are born the way they are liking the gender they like and nothing is going to change that. Teaching children that homosexuality is okay is absolutely about making them productive adults because it removes the emotional damage that being told you're wrong/bad/evil does to a kid from a very early age and it takes a stab at neutralizing bigotry among the other students (any more than society already does, of course).
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 2 2011, 7:23pm
Post #49 of 129
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I'm going to have to disagree. I believe God created each person and he wouldn't
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Put the desire for people to do something he said was wrong. That would be unfair of him to expect us not to do something he told us not to do. If there would be any reason for people being "born with it" is because of us inheriting a sinful nature from our parents who ultimately got it from Adam.
From my experience people who become gay, etc have had troubled pasts with relationships especially when their parents weren't there for them when they needed love the most. The need for love is in all of us and if we haven't been given it we look for it in other people.
I'm not saying all troubled pasts = people being gay, etc. But, it does seem like a trend to me.
Just my five cents.
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 2 2011, 7:27pm
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Plus if kids were taught to treat everybody with maturity and not pick on anyone
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The need to teach kids about every little difference would be eliminated.
Then kids could keep their innocence longer and no one would be picked on.
Very idealistic, I know, but so is thinking that teaching kids about every little difference will make them not harass each other.
It only really gives them more names to call their victims by.
(This post was edited by Gimli'sBox on Jun 2 2011, 7:27pm)
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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven
Jun 2 2011, 7:33pm
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I have yet to find a passage from the Bible condemning homosexuality that wasn't caused by a mistranslation of the original text. Do you have one?
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GAndyalf
Valinor
Jun 2 2011, 8:04pm
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I have a child who is a tad older than this discussion...
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And I treat this subject the same way I do every other subject under the Sun, if he's old enough to ask about something, he deserves an answer - a FULL answer. I've never withheld on him anything. Does that mean I give him complete information? To the best of my ability to communicate it to him, yes I do. Since he was old enough to talk I have never once given him a 'kid' or 'baby' answer to anything. Most times his eyes glaze over around paragraph 2 of a 5 paragraph explanation. But almost without exception he'll come to me 2 weeks later and talk to me about something from paragraph FOUR, sometimes connected to something completely unrelated to what he asked about, and he'll be RIGHT! Would I bring it up out of the blue if he hadn't asked? No. But he has asked about it and been answered (he's 8 now).
Children have a lot more power to comprehend than we give credit for.
Teaching about differences is never needed, observation will do that. But teaching how to HANDLE differences is among the main things that adults should convey to children as those are hardest to work out on one's own. Most adults cannot do it well.
Not idealistic, but a delusion. Innocence is simply ignorance and dangerous. Compassion and respect are far more valuable. Again, this is not about teaching kids the difference - they've noticed that themselves already - but about how to handle differences, either with belligerance, fear, and intolerance, or respect, compassion, and joy of diversity.
Cruelty invents names better than education does.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 2 2011, 8:54pm
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I am no Bible/Hebrew/Greek expert
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But I have found verses that, as far as I know, very clearly state that God created men to marry women and women to marry men. For example, Leviticus 18 vs. 22 says ‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable" Genesis 19 talks about Sodom and Gomorrah. I won't put the whole story here (it's possibly too mature for some of the younger audience of TORN) but again, homosexuality is condemned as wrong.
Please don't label me as a hater, I believe that God has love and mercy for homosexuals. But He does not love homosexuality.
and you're right gimli's box, so far we've been able to discuss this like civilized people without shouting! :) that's good! :)
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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven
Jun 2 2011, 9:13pm
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Laying aside all the other issues with using Leviticus to condemn or condone (it holds some other rather problematic laws), the Hebrew reads closer to: And with a male do not lie in a woman's bed; it is unclean.
As for the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, you might want to take a closer look at it. The sin the townspeople commit is one of foresaking the guest-host relationship, not homosexuality.
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 2 2011, 9:25pm
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What do you mean by mistranslation?
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I would say look at Leviticus 20. The whole chapter is about sexual sins. Verse 13 says "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination..."
In Romans 1:26, 27 it says: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the women, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness..."
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 2 2011, 9:35pm
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If course it's important to be hospitible
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But no where in the bible does God call it a sin to forsake the host-guest relationship.
And if it wasn't about something sexual why did Lot say it wasn't right and offer his two daughters to the crowd? Why is homosexuality also refered to as Sodomy?
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 2 2011, 9:35pm
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a very similar story to Sodom, men ask for a guest to be brought out to them for bad reasons. The owner of the house calls them "vile". Of course they're also not being proper hosts ( to say the least:) but I'm pretty sure the "vile" epithet concerns the act of homosexuality.
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 2 2011, 9:42pm
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I definitely agree. You shouldn't talk down to kids...
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They do understand more than we mostly give them credit for.
The point I'm making is that you are the parent and you're talking to your own kid. You know how much you want to give him and when. He trusts you and you love him. It's part of the parent-child relationship.
Teachers in public schools don't always know when a child is ready and since these topics are best left to parents they should drop the subject and focus teaching other things that will help them be productive adults.
Then they won't have to give kids homework and you'll have more time to answer your sons questions about life relationships.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 2 2011, 9:42pm
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Genesis 2, matthew 19, Mark 10, Ephesians 5 all talk about a man leaving his father and mother for a woman.
also when God created humans, He made "male" and "female". He didn't leave an "other" choice.
But I would be curious to see what some of the other "mistranslations" are. While I understand that human beings translated the Bible, the Bible itself is the inspired word of God. Humans make mistakes, but God doesn't. And I believe that most Bible translators do everything in their power to make the translations as accurate as possible (otherwise they add footnotes)
(This post was edited by Gollum the Great on Jun 2 2011, 9:44pm)
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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven
Jun 2 2011, 9:50pm
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because his daughters weren't guests and therefore it was a lesser crime to assault them than to assault his guests. The Bible doesn't have to lay out the guest-host relationship because it was so prevelant at the time. This was a crime that other gods *cough*Zeus*cough* had been killing for for generations. The Bible primarily sought to correct harsh behaviors at the time (like mistreating slaves or eating dangerous meat like shellfish) so it didn't need to reinforce things that were soblatantly obvious at the time.
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GAndyalf
Valinor
Jun 2 2011, 10:10pm
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I simply disagree. If he is old enough to ask the question he deserves a response. In a group dynamic such as a school if one child questions then it is something is going to be addressed in one manner or another. Do I understand your concern that some children may not be ready for answers that other children are? Yes. In life a lot happens that some are ready for and others are not. This is a great teaching tool for those situations with those children.
Teaching a child to deal with such situations does teach them to be more productive adults. The school my son attends does not give homework - ever. It's a public school. I get tired of the rant that teachers don't know. They six hours a day with kids - far more than some parents do. You're looking at this from the perspective of a home-schooled kid who has at least one and possibly two parents working together to raise you and your sister. Not all children are so lucky. Yes, I've read where you and WB talk to your 'parents', plural so I know they're together, but I do not know how involved both are with your schooling, etc. Further, many homeschooled, at least of the religious variety, do so because they believe school to be immoral according to their beliefs and your citing teaching homosexuality appears to be in line with such an observation. As such I believe your view to be skewed on the intentions of most teachers and schools who try very hard to do right by the children in their charge. Are there 'bad' teachers? YES! But there are also 'bad' parents as well.
It's fairly easy to get two people to agree on most things or at least to compromise. Once you get 3 or more it becomes increasingly impossible/improbable. I think that getting together in a public forum and discussing matters brings a far greater chance of understanding and peace than avoidance of a subject.
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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven
Jun 2 2011, 10:11pm
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In most cases the prescriptions against homosexuality are caused by a translator either having an agenda or a poor understanding of the nuances of Hebrew and Greek. Disclaimer time: I can still muddle my way through koine Greek, but I'm relying on others for my Hebrew.
Again, Leviticus 20 translates to not lying with a man in a woman's bed, which was a common fertility rite at the time. Romans 1:26 is more interesting since it's less of a translation error and more a context problem. It seems to me that it' arguing not to engage in homosexual intercourse if one is actually heterosexual.
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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven
Jun 2 2011, 10:18pm
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1. Biological sex and sexual preference are not the same thing, so biological sex has little to do with this argument.
2. And yet there are many people born in an "other" category: neutrois and inter-sexed people.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 2 2011, 11:01pm
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Is it possible we're reading into this a little too much? (I do that all the time :) It says it's detestable for men to have "relations" with each other. To me it seems pretty clear. And in the original Greek, it says pretty much the same thing (only choppier :) BTW I don't know greek, but we have a Greek NT that has the original greek, the literal translation, and I think the RSV all together, so you can compare them.
(This post was edited by Gollum the Great on Jun 2 2011, 11:01pm)
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 2 2011, 11:02pm
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there isn't a "sexual preference" option.
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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven
Jun 2 2011, 11:10pm
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Are you saying God didn't create anything other than heterosexual? And where do you find that in scripture because I see several sexual preferences around these days.
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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven
Jun 2 2011, 11:24pm
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What it says is that it's detestable for men or women to turn against there nature in order to lie with the same sex. I see nothing about those who've been with the same sex all their lives here. The Bible continuously picks and chooses the times when it's unacceptable to have gay relations rather than coming out and saying it's forbidden.
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Magpie
Immortal
Jun 2 2011, 11:29pm
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that, being young.. you have not met a large range of people yet. And that, being young, the people in your realm of experience are also mostly young. And, in my experience, young people have angst and troubles no matter what their past experiences.. relationships... situations in life... or sexual preference is.
It is also my experience that the large number of gay, bi, and transgender people in my social circles are not at all troubled and would relate that they have lived lovely lives amongst family and friends who love them. In fact, I was honored to be present at the funeral I attended recently of one such man. That room was full of people from all walks of life, from all religions, from all cultures, from all ages, and from all declared assignments of sexual preference. To the person, we all loved Dan. His past was not troubled and neither were his relationships with peers or family members. Some spoke that, until meeting Dan, their experience of gay people was very limited and they were unsure what to make of him. What they learned was... people are people. And a good soul signs through, no matter what preconceived notions one might carry about a label we might apply to them.
We all develop our understanding of the world from our experiences. But we have to understand when our experiences are limited. You would be welcome to visit my world and meet the lovely people who I'm glad to call friends.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 3 2011, 12:22am
Post #69 of 129
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This discussion has gone way off-topic and has become a mostly three-way conversation. If you want to continue discussion homosexuality, gender issues and the Bible, please take it to private messages.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 3 2011, 2:17am
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Oops. I done it again. I ranted until I think I kind of forgot what the whole point was. Sorry! now I feel kind of silly...
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jun 4 2011, 1:45am
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I work for the Public Schools in my city.
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I believe that private schooling of all types is detrimental to society as a whole.
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Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Jun 4 2011, 3:47am
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that one of the best investments they could make was to send me to a private school.
Not that private schooling is necessarily better than public schooling, but in this case they knew the school system was top-notch and prepared you to do something useful with your life
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jun 4 2011, 8:24am
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I'm not sure I completely agree with you.
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I've attended both public and private schools. I've also worked doing counseling at two public schools. I think there are some wonderful advantages and disadvantages to both.
I've mostly preferred my private school experience. I had smaller classes, more options of classes to take, and I got to take all the classes I signed up for when in high school (except for the chemistry class... they bumped me up to honors chemistry.) But the issue I had with private school is that I grew up in a low income single parent family, and most of my classmates were upper-middle class to wealthy. They couldn't understand why I didn't have the nice clothes they had, couldn't afford a car, vacations all over the world, etc. That was somewhat isolating. And at one of the private schools I attended when I was in elementary school, I was picked on, not only by the other kids, but one of the two women who owned and ran the school. I think in public school, that woman would have been more likely to have been fired for that in the public school system.
As for public school, I had some really great teachers as well as some I had in private school. But the classes were often really big, and the larger class sizes did affect how well I learned. I didn't always get into the classes I wanted, and my honors student friends who went to public school often found themselves scheduled in classes that were totally inappropriate for their needs and goals (one friend was put in drivers ed when she was 14 -- what good was that class to her when she wasn't even old enough for a permit?) I was also more likely to be separated from friends depending on what classes they decided to put me in, which ended up with me having a totally different lunch period from my closest friends, having a pretty depressing effect on my social life.
My biggest problem with the public school system has to do more with my older brother, though. If he had to go to public school the entire time he was in school, he would likely have dropped out at a much earlier age than he did. The schools and the teachers he had in public school just weren't properly trained on how to teach a kid with dyslexia. Instead of getting additional help from the teachers, he just got punished. He ended up going to a school that was specifically set up for highly intelligent kids with learning disabilities, and if that school hadn't lost funding and had to close its doors, he would have graduated. He ended up getting his G.E.D. and scored extremely well.
My experience with working as a counselor in public schools also impacts my view of public schools in general. It seems like public schools are a little better in helping kids with learning disabilities than they were when my brother was a kid. But they still need a lot of work. I also find that some of the teachers are overwhelmed because so many cut backs are being made to schools that sometimes, it's very difficult to do much of anything that resembles education. Many of the teachers would just toss me whatever kid was considered a troublemaker or a bad student so they didn't have to deal with them. And of course, the kids they handed over to me weren't actually bad kids at all and hardly deserved the label. Some of them were incredibly smart kids that were dealing with some very difficult situations in their lives. Oh, and did I mention that I wasn't getting paid in anything other than hours towards getting my license? With as little teachers get paid these days, I wasn't even getting paid anything to live on.
I don't want to badmouth public schools because I know from my own experience that there are some amazing teachers and some amazing public schools out there. But public schools were designed to resemble factories, and not everyone has the mental makeup to work well in a factory setting. There has to be an alternative for those who need a different type of teaching so that they can have a chance to be seen as more than a label of stupid kid, troublemaker, drop out, etc. And I.E.P.s can be very difficult to get so that those kids who need extra help can actually get it through the public school system. There are some private schools that can offer that extra help. There are some private schools that are really terrible. And sometimes home schooling is a really good option. Sometimes it's not. I just can't stand the thought of any child being denied the chance at having a good education because they fall through the cracks of any school system that can't work with them.
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Patty
Immortal
Jun 4 2011, 3:37pm
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I can't speak to which is better, but...
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I think that people who send their kids to private school won't have the emotional investment in trying to see that the public schools get all the funding and support they need. Their money and time is all taken up just trying to get their own kids' schooling paid for. This would be bad news for all who, struggle as they may, must send their kids to public school.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 4 2011, 4:52pm
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is when people list problems with homeschooling, number one on their list is socialization (how we homeschoolers have come to cringe at that word!)
To be honest, I think "socialization" has very little to do with where you go to school. My mom was both public and private schooled, had very few friends, was picked on a lot, and didn't have a great time.
Now wait, don't tar and feather me! My point is there are exceptions to every rule.
For the most part, homeschoolers get just as much socialization as public schoolers - through our own families, through homeschool co-ops, PSEO, sports, etc. There are some exceptions. Some homeschoolers are very reclusive and don't get out enough.
Most public schoolers have friends, are happy, and enjoy being public schooled.But there are public schoolers too who don't have friends, get picked on, etc.
Neither is perfect. And homeschooling isn't for everyone, I understand that. But please, I am begging you on my knees! If you are going to find fault with homeschooling, be creative and pick something other than socialization! It's the least of our problems!
(This post was edited by Gollum the Great on Jun 4 2011, 4:53pm)
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Magpie
Immortal
Jun 4 2011, 5:16pm
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Did Kangi Ska list socialization (or the lack, thereof) in homeschooling in his post? Or are you replying to someone else and hit the 'post reply' button to the wrong post?
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jun 4 2011, 8:13pm
Post #77 of 129
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As a kid who was picked on in school...
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I learned a lot about myself and what to give attention to in my life. Yes, it was a painful experience for me, but if my mother took me out of school and homeschooled me, I would never have learned to stick up for myself. And nowadays, because of my work doing counseling in schools, I've been able to help support other children in learning that being picked on isn't about them being less, but the bully being less.
I think using homeschooling primarily to get kids away from potentially being teased is a very bad idea. The people I know who were homeschooled for that reason have a lot more socialization issues as adults than most people I know. They do not act like their age, and in a sense, are still emotionally trapped at the age in which they were taken out of school. I think this is the big thing when it comes to socialization: some kids actually need to be in a situation where they have to face certain types of circumstances and learn to overcome them. School can provide this.
Homeschooling for the reasons of feeling the school system isn't up to par, or because a kid has a learning disability that the school system doesn't know how to support are far better reasons, in my opinion. I understand you like homeschooling. It seems like you feel it works well for you, and that's really wonderful. But any one kind of educational system (including homeschooling) that can work well for one person for a multitude of reasons can also be detrimental for another person for a multitude of reasons. Having grown up a shy kid, I think homeschooling would have been detrimental for me. Being in school, and being a good student, I built confidence in speaking up in class, which helped me build confidence in speaking up in general. So yeah, going to school instead of being homeschooled actually did help me in the socialization department.
I think the thing is, socialization is always going to be an issue when it comes to however one chooses to educate a child, and you can't ask people to ignore that. Education isn't just about what you learn from a book, but about how you live in the world. I absolutely love books (a taught myself to read when I was 3), but even I know that there are a lot of things you learn by exposing yourself to the world, by talking with people who have different values from yours, by travelling to places that are different from where you grew up. I purposefully attended a college with a cooperative education program where we had to do an internship every other semester. I had the opportunity to live in a foreign country, and in parts of the US that I would have never been inclined to visit. And I learned a lot, because I stepped outside my comfort zone. There is more of a potential of a bubble effect happening when kids are homeschooled, but it doesn't have to happen. Ultimately, good homeschooling allows for kids to socialize and step outside of that bubble. Bad homeschooling leaves us with people like one of my friends, who is 26 years old, lives with her mom on public assistance, and is afraid to get a job because she was picked on so much as a kid. I hurt for her because she's limited herself so much. The world deserves to get to know her.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 4 2011, 9:48pm
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kind of both sorry, my bad!
some of the earlier posts had to do with socialization, and I misread Kangi Ska's post and thought he was talking about it too... I'm really being a good example of homeschooling, I can't even read
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 4 2011, 9:52pm
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homeschooling just to avoid teasing and stuff would be a bad reason. But I didn't mean that we home school to avoid teasing. I meant that kids can feel just as ostracized in a public school as in homeschool.
at our co-op we have a speech class, it's been really helpful in becoming comfortable with public speaking
Actually, there are many debate clubs, etc. for homeschoolers. So we do learn to fend for ourselves (this poll, for example...)
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 4 2011, 10:13pm
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Okay, so I'd like to get a few things cleared up....
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When you say "socialization", what exactly do you mean by that?
Why is socialization important (and I'm not saying it isn't, I'd just like to know what other people think)?
What do you think the effects are on a person when they don't get enough socialization?
These questions are for everyone, I'm just curious.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Jun 4 2011, 10:47pm
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I might have done it for my kids if I hadn't been the family breadwinner.
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They had a miserable time in grade school/middle school. Though now, at ages 26 and 30, they say the experience strengthened them.
I teach at a community college, and I have had several homeschooled kids in my classes, usually because they're ready for more advanced math than their parents can manage. I find they do great. Some of them are as young as fifteen, and fit in very well with the thirty-year-olds in class. I haven't noticed any socialization problems. If socialization means dealing with really rude people, I suppose they might be at a disadvantage. But in a community college setting, where other students are in class because they want to be and are polite and respectful, homeschooled kids fit right in.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Jun 4 2011, 11:02pm
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I think my daughter was about kindergarten age
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when I told her I was going to go to a 30th anniversary party for two gay friends of mine. She asked what "gay" was and I said "When two men or two women love each other the way your dad and I do." She said, "Oh, OK." No trauma, no age-inappropriate sex talk, just simple real life.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Jun 4 2011, 11:06pm
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My kids were certainly no older than five or six
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when they knew we had gay friends. It didn't mean we told them all about gay sex. Just told the what they needed to know: "Ken and Tim love each other the way Dad and I do." It didn't scar them at all, and was an important thing to know about Ken and Tim. Why people make this such a big issue is beyond me.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Jun 4 2011, 11:16pm
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It's like what Tolkien said about books for kids:
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that they should have growing room, just like their clothes :-)
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jun 4 2011, 11:22pm
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Here's what socialization means to me.
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Socialization isn't just about how much time you spend with other people. It's about learning appropriate social skills in a variety of settings so that you can navigate your way around most social settings without major discomfort and misunderstanding between oneself and others.
For example, say you have pretty good social skills where you grow up. Then you move to a totally different country with a different culture and language. Even if you are fluent in the language, you may not be properly socialized to understand the nuances in the language and miss part of what a person is saying. For example, my sister-in-law, who is French, sometimes misunderstands what my mother, my brothers, and I say to her because she translates our words to herself directly, without the inflections or tone of what we are saying, so she can end up taking us very literally when we are speaking figuratively.
When I travel, I often don't always get immediately pegged as an American by my behavior. This is because I pay attention to how people interact and try to fit accordingly. I remember being on a bus in The Hague, and everyone was either quietly reading, or sitting, or having conversations in low hushed tones so as not to be obtrusive. Then an American couple got on the bus and were so loud in their conversation that everyone on the bus could hear them. Now, their volume would have been normal on a city bus in the US, but it was really inappropriate and irritating in The Hague. I could see many people looking at them on the bus, some possibly making snap judgements about how Americans can be annoying.
Ultimately, we can't expect to spend our lives in a homogenized environment of people who mostly think like us. Sometimes we find ourselves among people who have very different views from ours and have to learn a way to communicate our view in a way that doesn't offend. When I shared my views about homosexuality in education, I decided to step away for a day, because I had a feeling if I got too involved in the conversation, I might say something angry or offend someone. I came back and saw that the subject turned to religion and I was glad that I had left, because I have a really big problem with people using religion to say that people are bad or wrong for loving someone. And I knew that it was likely, because I was raised Buddhist, that my view could be dismissed as me not being Christian or Catholic, and I would feel unheard (this has happened frequently in my life, btw, despite whether I make a good argument or not.) I also know that religious debates can often turn ugly. So I'm a big believer in stepping back and saying, "that's your truth, I respect that, please respect mine, and I really hope that neither of our truths will lead to harm to others." I know from how I was socialized that people are different from me, people won't always agree with me, and I have to know how to represent myself so that people know I'm not coming from a place of attack, but a place of wanting my view to be understood. That is a very perilous line at times, and you can't truly learn it until you've experienced it several times. Even I mess that up from time to time, despite being careful.
So, yeah, when I talk about socialization, I'm not talking about people not having friends or interacting with their peers. It would be disrespectful to you and the other homeschooled members of the board to imply than any of you are friendless and lack skill in interacting with people. But what I am talking about is learning how to be in a world populated by people who may have drastically different life experiences and therefore very different views, and be able to take in that into account when deciding what your view is.
There's a reason why I decided to study psychology and am trying to finish my intern hours so that I can be a licensed marriage and family therapist. It's because with all the things we are taught in school (whether from public, private, or homeschool education), we aren't really taught how to be ourselves. It can take a lot of mistakes and missteps before we know how to take all we've been taught and decide for ourselves what values we believe in. I know my values have changed since I was a child, a pre-teen, a teenager, even in my early twenties. I've done things that I would never have thought I'd do, some for good and some for ill. But because I try to make a point to learn about people, not just from books, but from interacting with them, I've learned a lot more about the world and how I want to live in it.
Some kids get homeschooled because their parents want to make sure their kids are instilled with the values they believe in. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. And those kids, as they grow up and become adults, need to figure out if those values are the ones they want to live by for the rest of their lives. Sometimes, those values are excellent values and make for good, practical, real world common sense. Sometimes those values can be alienating to others.
Ultimately, I feel that for me, the more different views and opinions that I'm exposed to, the more I can learn who I am and who I want to be. You can't always get that from a book. I really respect you for asking this question about socialization and talking about your experience in being homeschooled (as well as the others in this thread who were homeschooled.) Homeschooling can be very misunderstood, and you do show that you aren't just being kept out of school, but really getting an education. I hope that you will continue on into college and have the opportunity to learn and experience even more in life. There are few things better than being someone who is willing to learn, and you sound, from your homeschooling, like someone who is self-motivated to learn.
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Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Jun 5 2011, 12:50am
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parents who send their kids to private school still have to pay for public school. Just because they're not actively seeking to improve public education doesn't mean they totally forsake it (even if some of them may want to).
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 5 2011, 1:19am
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I respect your views because
1. you're not ranting (something I do all too often)
2. You have reasons to back up your views.
I will not disregard someone's views because of their religion. I may not agree, but everyone has a right to discuss issues and share their opinions.
It sounds like you are trying a lot harder than many to understand people of other cultures. Good for you!
Oh dear, here comes something controversial... I don't plan on going to college! No, I don't have anything against college. It's just my personal decision. I don't plan on a career - or rather, I plan on being a teacher, cook, launderer, and housemaid!
I know how you feel when you say people often dismiss your views for some reason or other. Many people, even home schooled friends, criticize my desire to be a home schooled mom. One girl told me it was a "low aspiration". Others have said, "What if you never get married? What if you can't have kids? What if your husband dies and you have to support your family?" It can be very discouraging. It's not that I'm opposed to women having jobs, or that I think all mothers should be stay-at-home moms. I personally just want to be a mom.
Also, you're right about socialization - it's not just being able to talk to your peers. Like Gimli's Box mentioned earlier, my parents are raising me to be an adult, not a kid.They're teaching us skills that work with people of any culture (politeness, starting conversation, being respectful of other's customs and traditions). Within the circle of homeschoolers I know, this is something commonly taught.
(This post was edited by Gollum the Great on Jun 5 2011, 1:20am)
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 5 2011, 3:31am
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I think you handled it very well. Kind of goes along with what GAndalf
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Was saying about kids being smarter than we give them credit for. Your kid asked a question and you answered it. You didn't act like "oh this isn't something you should know about. Oh it's a big deal! Aaaaahhhhh!"
But, you didn't tell them every little thing that defines a gay person. And that was a choice you made as the parent.
The school didn't tell every five year old within earshot about gay people and what they do and how if you feel this way you might be gay too.
That's the difference for me. You're the parent who's responsiblity is to raise your kid to the best of your knowledge.
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 5 2011, 3:43am
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I would like to say however that
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If you don't have a standard higher than your self it does ultimately just become view points that can't be proven either way.
I personally don't care for religion. Religion is man's view of their surroundings through the pretense of what ever book they choose to uphold.
I'm always open for a thoughtful discussion. It always help me know why I believe something and not blindly accept what I've been taught.
And I was really proud of us all, by the way! No name calling, no hyperventilation! Wow!
To me it's really sad when "religious" discussions are known to turn ugly. Especially since most religions claim to be peaceful.
And I agree with your definition of socialization. I think that's what I really mean when I say mature. The ability to look around you and say "You know what? Nobody is screaming in this bus. That probably means I shouldn't disrupt everyone's moment with my loud mouth."
(This post was edited by Gimli'sBox on Jun 5 2011, 3:44am)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 5 2011, 4:23am
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needed to be deleted.
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 5 2011, 4:25am
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One of the things my dad taught me was the usage of all vs. some.
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By your statement you've eliminated the possibility of any thing else but what you just said.
Which in the case of life, there aren't many cut-and-dry, all-or-nothing realities.
Which as a side note that might be what I'm saying without realizing it.
So, to clarify, I'm not saying there are absolutely no good public schools or teachers who teach there. But, most of the time (a. k. a. Some) homeschooling would be the better option as a whole.
To say all types of private schooling is a detriment to society is claiming a lot.
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Gimli'sBox
Gondor
Jun 5 2011, 4:29am
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I'm confuzzled...could you explain what you mean, please?//
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Wraith Buster
Gondor
Jun 5 2011, 4:40am
Post #95 of 129
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In your last post you commented on how everyone was being nice.
So then he said that not one post needed to be deleted because someone was being rude.
Am I right SirDennisC?
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 5 2011, 12:07pm
Post #97 of 129
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But...do you like Lord of the Rings?
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Jun 5 2011, 1:01pm
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This corner of the Internet is so much more rational and civilized than most of the rest of the Internet. I do love TORn! :-)
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Jun 5 2011, 1:06pm
Post #99 of 129
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*mods waaay up* What an amazing post!
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There's a whole sermon there. You are going to be an amazing therapist, with your wonderful ability to really listen.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Jun 5 2011, 1:23pm
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One of my college students who had been homeschooled was taking math so she could someday teach it to her children. Her father had told her she was to be a stay-at-home mom, and she was to take math so she could be a good one. She really wanted to study music, but papa was against it. I'm not sure what all of that means. She did very well at math, and was prone to fainting because she felt so stressed.
My daughter opted to stop college after getting an associate's degree, and not go on to get a bachelor's. Her counselor was appalled, because she was so brilliant, but I supported her in her decision. She's now working in the field she studied for (graphic design) and loving it. And making a third the salary my son is making. (He got a bachelor's degree in computer science.)
One of the brightest and most educated and wealthiest women I know never went to college. She's an amazing businesswoman who reads a lot and has written some published books.
My sister never wanted to be anything but a stay-at-home mom. But she didn't meet the man of her dreams until she was in her thirties, and in the meantime had to struggle a lot to survive. She ended up getting a PhD and then having children and being a stay-at-home mom, and an amazingly good one.
I don't know quite what my point is, except that if your goal is to be a stay-at-home mom, I think that's admirable. And that if you don't go to college, you can still be educated. Just keep reading widely. It will be good for both you and your children.
(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Jun 5 2011, 1:28pm)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 5 2011, 4:14pm
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That's exactly how I remember it
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not one post needed to be deleted because someone was being rude.
That aside I'm surprised at the ratio of 3 to 1 (other schooled to home schooled) among respondents here. Now I will have to look up national averages...
Okay the US Census information is from 10 years ago (2001), and well, only speaks to the US experience: http://www.census.gov/...ps0053/twps0053.html
Distilled the info looks like this:
In 1999 national average was about 1.5% with urban areas being lower, rural higher.
By region rural bible belt (called white or white&black gainers ?) percentages as high as 3 compared with urban melting pots as low as 0.5.
Average believed to be rising, total number of home schooled believed to be rising by 15% per year.
Some data since then is collected here: http://iae-pedia.org/ICT_and_Home_Schooling
In short:
There was a big jump between 2001 and 2003 and steady growth since with the national average pegged near 3% (2007, US Department of Education NCHS).
Obviously Internet access and an ever growing store of online educational resources has had a positive influence on the growth of home schooling. Affluence and having two parents present where one is not working outside the home is strongly indicated in 2007 (as it was in 1999).
Going back to your original premise, perhaps LOTR is bigger among homeschoolers than the wider public. I wonder if it's because they are less moved by the whims of the mob -- or the machines that drive them -- as it were, where things only remain popular for about 6 months to a year before it's on to the next thing? Hmmm.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 5 2011, 5:02pm
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Oops I meant Lady Brynna's original premise. //
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Magpie
Immortal
Jun 5 2011, 5:03pm
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keep in mind, the poll question was phrased as "are you a homeschooler or not".
That is present tense. There was no option for people past the age (or point) of being homeschooled.
Therefore, the only people voting are people either currently in elementary or high school or perhaps someone homeschooling their own children since that could (to my mind) fit the definition of 'homeschooler'.
There are, I suspect, very few active members of this board in high school. Of those, I suspect many are regulars on the Hobbit board and many members of the Hobbit board seemed focused on that board to the exclusion of all others. Even many long time regulars of these boards don't visit this one.
So, I would take the sampling of this poll to be too narrowly focused to extrapolate much wider data from.
Now, if we were to post a new poll saying, "Were you ever home schooled in your life?" then maybe we'd get a wider sampling of information.
On a side note. These polls are mostly for fun and sometimes a good, meaty discussion comes from them. So I don't mean to pick at how they are phrased at all. But just in the interest of getting skilled at things... it warrants some consideration how the poll questions are phrased and what the options offer - Are they complete in the range of possibilities? Do they offer an 'other' if all possibilities can't be covered? Is anyone that might be a member here unintentionally excluded from participating (due to poor phrasing... perhaps a poll deliberately seeks to sample a sub-group of members)?
Again, it's all in fun so no harm is done. But if a poll creator wants the fullest participation possible, they can facilitate that by carefully considering how they phrase the question and possible answers. If I see a poll that I simply can't answer... (like...what's your favorite color: pink or yellow? ... and my favorite color is neither, then what do I vote?) then I simply don't vote.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 5 2011, 5:38pm
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in this case the percentage of homeschoolers is roughly 10 times higher than the national average. The very valid points you make about the validity of this poll should have resulted in a greater difference than 3 to 1 (other/home) with homeschoolers coming in much lower than 33% of respondents.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Jun 5 2011, 6:42pm
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Many homeschool curriculums put a strong emphasis on literature, especially what might be considered "classic" lit. Most homeschoolers I know (and knew) are fairly well-read as a result, and many are avid readers on their own time as well. They may very well read fewer contemporary authors, at least for schoolwork, than those in public school. I think I would have been a voracious reader regardless, as I was reading well above my grade level even in (public) elementary school, and when I began homeschooling it just continued on. I think I read through the library's entire collection of Sir Walter Scott on my own after being assigned to read Ivanhoe in 9th grade (homeschool). That wasn't considered unusual in homeschooled circles, though my public schooled friends thought it was a bit weird to want to read stuff like that when it wasn't assigned to you. Although even some homeschoolers thought it was a little out of the ordinary when I later began to carry around a copy of the Federalist Papers to read at odd moments. What can I say, American Revolutionary history fascinates me.
That's why I said in my original response that it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see a high percentage of homeschoolers in a forum for any classic book. LOTR's status in the critical literature world might be debatable, but it would certainly be well within the category of what many homeschoolers would read for entertainment.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Jun 5 2011, 6:54pm
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After watching this discussion unfold...
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I just have to say that it's both amusing and saddening to me that 20+ years later, the first objection/concern that comes up is still socialization. When my family began doing it, it was very much a small minority movement and considered deeply suspicious by most people. I was often asked if I was ever allowed out of the house. My response basically amounted to ".....?!?!?!?!!!!! I'm just doing my schoolwork in a different location, I'm not in prison!" The homeschoolers I knew (hundreds of them in my area) were among the busiest social bees out there, both with organized social activities and just hanging out with friends. It was my public school friends I found it hard to schedule things with, as I'd be done with my schoolwork by 1 or 2, they wouldn't get out until 3 and often had a couple hours of homework to do after that. They never had any time.
The question is really when you expect the socializing to happen. In the classroom and the school hallways, or outside of school hours? I could go on at length comparing and contrasting, as I spent equal numbers of years in public and home schools and had close friends who did each exclusively, but after a couple of decades of it, frankly I'm weary of the debate. There are always horror stories, and believe me, they horrify us too, all the more so because they give all the rest of us a public black eye....but they really are a minority. The average homeschooler does their thing quietly and quite successfully and never makes waves....or the news. And if we didn't tell you who we were, you would likely never know.
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Wraith Buster
Gondor
Jun 5 2011, 7:04pm
Post #107 of 129
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100% with you on everything you said there Silverlode.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 5 2011, 8:44pm
Post #108 of 129
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I don't think you were geeky for loving Ivanhoe!
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I"m rereading it right now, it's such a fun read! Have you read any Howard Pyle? I've never had a crush on someone, but if I did, it would have to be Robin Hood.... or maybe King Arthur....
(This post was edited by Gollum the Great on Jun 5 2011, 8:45pm)
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jun 5 2011, 8:53pm
Post #109 of 129
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I consider that a great compliment! I just think it's so important to step outside of what's easy and normal for us so we can learn more about the world and how we want to live in it.
I realized, when reading all of these responses, that in some ways, there has been an aspect of homeschooling in my life, despite me going to both public and private schools. My mom has been a teacher since I was in preschool and actually worked at the preschool I attended. Of course, all the other kids at school thought we all lived at school (still cracks me up that kids sometimes think their teachers live at school!)
I think the ultimate goal is that people will hopefully become lifelong learners. I feel sad when I hear that many people never pick up a book again after graduating from school. It's such a shame.
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jun 5 2011, 9:01pm
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One famous homeschooler I do know of is Christopher Paolini
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I remember listening to an interview of him talking about how he started writing. Essentially, he'd read all the science fiction and fantasy books in his local library (a good example of how a homeschooler can be more well-read than your average student) and decided to write his own books.
While I find his Eragon books somewhat derivative, I also think they're pretty great for what they are and I think he's a good example of how a homeschooled kid can become a successful adult.
I think the important thing isn't always how we learned what we know, but how able we are to use that information. There probably are a lot more successful homeschoolers in the world than we hear about. Look at how many child actors have to learn on the set while filming a movie, not going to traditional schools most of the time, and then go on to great colleges and graduate schools (of course, the rags like to tell us more about the ones who have "failed" in life more than the ones who have done well for themselves.)
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 5 2011, 9:08pm
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this is kind of off topic, but then, this is an off-topic forum
What exactly do people define religion as? (oops, I just ended that sentence with a preposition. Prepositions are things you aren't supposed to end sentences with.)
I was thinking about this today. People always say "I'm religious" or "I'm not." But what do we mean by that? What is "religion?"
This is a question for everyone, I'd love to see what all your answers are!
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jun 5 2011, 9:38pm
Post #112 of 129
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You could start a new poll on that topic!
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You can do a poll, "Do you consider yourself to be religious?" Put a few options (religious, not religious (atheist/agnostic), spiritual, questioning, never thought about it, or the like) and ask people to explain their vote. I think you'd get some very interesting answers on that one.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 5 2011, 10:09pm
Post #113 of 129
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I think I still have his Adventures of Robin Hood on my shelves somewhere, though. Around that time, I was also heavily into Robert Louis Stevenson and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and I'm still a big Sherlock Holmes fan.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 5 2011, 10:58pm
Post #114 of 129
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Eragon to be highly derivative, but considering he was 15 when he wrote it, I suppose it was only to be expected. I haven't read his later books, so I don't know how much he improved (or if he did).
Among the homeschoolers I know, one of the biggest emphases was not just to learn facts to pass tests (which they tend to do well on anyway) but to learn how to learn...in other words, how to reason through the concepts so that later if you don't know something, you know how to go educate yourself on that topic. Homeschool moms (at least the ones I know) are serious about the learning and the ones I knew were very tough graders (they know when you're slacking). One of the friends I graduated with told me she found college a breeze by comparison.
I think people can have a fairly narrow idea of homeschooling because they're just not familiar with how it works or with many people who do it. It's not underground anymore; there are huge conventions for home educators and many different curriculums and educational approaches with lots of support and materials available. It has great advantages; flexible scheduling, very small teacher/student ratio, the ability to tailor study programs to fit the student or to focus on problem areas - and anything and everything becomes a learning experience. When homeschoolers talk about cultivating a "learning lifestyle", they mean it. I led an outdoor club for homeschoolers for a number of years - I did it for fun but I suspect the moms were gleefully including it in their curriculums. I taught plant and animal identification (botany and life sciences), camp cooking (home ec), firebuilding, knot tying (hooray for build-your-own-camp-furniture), and map and compass work (basic geometry and geography) among other things - and I suspect a lot of the kids were earning a few PE credits in the process, especially on our camping trips. They were having a blast, hanging out with their friends, learning along the way and probably getting credit for it in addition to their usual textbook lessons. Conventional schooling is what everyone's used to, but homeschoolers are those who will contend that it's not the only, or even the best, way to learn. It's just one of the possible ways, but they're choosing another.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 5 2011, 11:38pm
Post #115 of 129
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that she's learning as much as we are
she said so much of her own schooling was so boring that she didn't retain much. Now, what with read-alouds, building a greek warship out of snow, eating African food, re-creating the Nile Delta, and trying to make Viking battle axes out of duct tape and paper mache, she gets to learn it all over again - and it's fun!
We had the funnest (good vocab word, eh?) time with history class because we did it with three other familes. Once a month we'd get together and share what we learned, eat food from the time period/culture, dress up, etc. My favorite was the Middle Ages, we had a real banquet and a pig's head made from meatloaf and we all dressed like princesses or jesters or monks or minstrels... I'll never forget it.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 5 2011, 11:39pm
Post #116 of 129
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maybe I'll do it... the answers would be.. interesting, to say the least.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 5 2011, 11:41pm
Post #117 of 129
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People tend to respond to polls that "ring a bell"
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in their interest or experience. I responded ("not") because I've had a couple of friends who homeschooled their kids and I think it's an interesting topic. But I'm willing to bet that a lot of people looking for an interesting poll who were not homeschooled, are not homeschooling their kids, and have had no experience with homeschooling, simply skip this one.
I don't think you can draw any conclusions from any of the results in this forum, just enjoy the discussions!
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jun 5 2011, 11:42pm)
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 5 2011, 11:42pm
Post #118 of 129
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Love Stevenson & Doyle. My friend just went to England (I'm soooo jealous) and brought back some wood from Sherwood Forest for me. She also got to see the Sherlock Holmes museum. I'm going there someday!
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Wraith Buster
Gondor
Jun 6 2011, 12:26am
Post #119 of 129
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She is more global thinking but my dad is really detailed and technical so we get some of both.
Actually a bit ago my sister was having a hard time with Algebra. Mom was busy and dad was willing to help so, they sat down and it literally took one hour and a half to get through one problem.
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Gollum the Great
Rohan
Jun 6 2011, 2:00am
Post #120 of 129
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You have no idea how nice it is to have someone not freak out and be like, "WHAT? YOU'RE NOT GOING TO COLLEGE? YOU ANTI-SOCIAL UNAMERICAN HERMIT!"
As a home school mom, I'll definitely always have a chance to learn. Our little motto is "Every moment's a homeschooling moment."
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Jun 6 2011, 2:22am
Post #121 of 129
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you always learn more as a teacher than as a student. Students often don't realize that while they may cram for tests, their teacher has a kind of test every day; they have to be prepared to teach a lesson! That's true for teachers of all kinds everywhere.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Jun 6 2011, 2:42am
Post #122 of 129
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It boggles my mind that people don't pick up books
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though I know it's true (some of my in-laws are like that.) My husband built bookshelves in our bathroom, because our library was overflowing. :-)
My parents were also teachers. I remember when I was ten asking my dad about the fourth dimension, because I'd read a science fiction story that mentioned it. He drew lines with his fingers along the two sides of a table corner, and along the leg, showing me how three lines could all be perpendicular to each other. Then he asked me to imagine a fourth line perpendicular to all three. That kept me busy for a good long time. :-D
My grandmother read a complete book every day, and my daughter is following in her footsteps. I remember when she was in middle school she was supposed to turn in a sheet one week. It was about a thousand pages for that week. But that was a slow week. She could finish a Harry Potter book in a day; we used to go to the midnight booksales and buy them, and by morning she'd have the book finished.
Anyway, I think in any good family there's an aspect of homeschooling. My dad used to read us bedtime stories from the encyclopedia before we were in kindergarten. I had a great education in public schools, but maybe that's partly because it was supplemented so well at home.
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taekotemple
Grey Havens
Jun 6 2011, 6:41am
Post #123 of 129
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Among the homeschoolers I know, one of the biggest emphases was not just to learn facts to pass tests (which they tend to do well on anyway) but to learn how to learn...in other words, how to reason through the concepts so that later if you don't know something, you know how to go educate yourself on that topic.
What you say right here, I relate to. See, I went to a Montessori school until I was in 2nd grade. I didn't even know I was in a grade until I switched schools because my school wasn't set up to be like standard schooling is. I chose to go to a private high school, partially for the smaller class size, partially because the focus was more on developing a thinking mind, rather than memorizing facts. Then I chose to go to both a college and a graduate school that used evaluations instead of grades, for the very same reasons. I find that I can come up with better explanations for arguments than many of my peers who went to more traditional schools. I think part of that is when you are taught not how to memorize facts, but how to utilize information to explore a concept and understand it, you tend to have a greater grasp of what those facts mean. I mean, is it more important to know the exact date the Civil War started, or is it more important to understand the causes and how it impacted and still impacts American culture?
There are ways to attend school and not be conventionally schooled, and I'm definitely a product of attending some alternative schools. I'm grateful that I was raised by someone who supported that. I don't think I would be the kind of learner today if I hadn't started out in a Montessori school, which fostered in me the ability to be a self-motivated learner, rather than focused on external praise. And it began me on the road to seeing life as a learning experience, rather than focusing on learning being something that only happens in school.
So, I agree with you, I'm not a big fan of conventional schooling. But not all schools are conventional, and I did get to experience many of the advantages you mentioned that homeschoolers have. Not to argue your point, because I get what you're saying and agree with much of it, but it is possible to obtain a pretty unique and excellent education, and also that same attitude towards having a learning lifestyle, and not be homeschooled.
I definitely respect families that can do homeschooling. I know it wasn't an option for my mom, being a young widow and not having the finances or the family support to stay home and homeschool me and my brothers. She's told me she wishes she could have done that, though.
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aranelthehobbit22
Gondor
Jun 6 2011, 8:54pm
Post #124 of 129
(892 views)
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you know me I don't get into that sorta thing....
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Idril Celebrindal
Tol Eressea
Jun 6 2011, 9:15pm
Post #125 of 129
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You need to widen your circle of acquaintances!
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It would be a good experience for you to meet kids who've gone to public, religious and private schools (in addition to your homeschooled friends). I think you'd be surprised how much you have in common.
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glorinfidell
Bree
Jun 7 2011, 3:36pm
Post #126 of 129
(912 views)
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Here is the link if you haven't seen it before! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM6uqj0_jQc
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glorinfidell
Bree
Jun 7 2011, 4:15pm
Post #127 of 129
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And proud of it! I was surprised when I saw the amount of homeschoolers here on TORn. Never thought there would be so many. Cool.
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glorinfidell
Bree
Jun 7 2011, 4:19pm
Post #128 of 129
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I hear that way to often. I understand a few homeschoolers are unsocial, but so are plenty of public school kids! I'm homeschooled, and I'm not some social failure or anything like that. So I totally agree GtheG.
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien
Jun 15 2011, 8:59pm
Post #129 of 129
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Fifth grade to eighth grade I was home-schooled. This coming year I'll be a freshman at a public high school.
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OK, time-out guys.
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