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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"Pete is adding a lot of characters in the film adaption"...
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 28 2011, 4:08am

Post #126 of 149 (592 views)
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Again I say that the possibility of Itaril does not excite me either way. [In reply to] Can't Post

She can be a figment of the web or a character invented by the script writers for The Hobbit. All I can say about the character's possible presence is: if she is in the movie I hope the role is a minor supporting role and it is acted and handled well.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Mar 28 2011, 4:12am

Post #127 of 149 (586 views)
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I share your hopes. [In reply to] Can't Post

If it indeed happens to be true, and PJ et al. remain adamant about her being in the film, they must have good reason, so I can only trust them on this, as they are very conscious about moving the main narrative forward, no doubt.

"I'm just a happy camper! Rockin' and a-rollin!"


FaerieHammer
The Shire


Mar 28 2011, 4:55am

Post #128 of 149 (607 views)
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Has some potential [In reply to] Can't Post

Like any good sucker for a love story, I think it would be nice. It would have to be downplayed though. Probably a lot. You don't want people complaining about taking up unnecessary space (and their complaints are valid, though the entire Hobbit does span over two full films). It would give Glorfindel a chance to develop in the eyes of the viewers (flashbacks, anyone?) and find out more about Itaril in the process, so PJ wouldn't have to go out on tangent to explain what the heck she's doing in the movie. It would be relevant, at least to the romance subplot (though I hope she doesn't have any kind of a major role. There are too many characters actaully within TH already deserving of that).

Eh. I guess we'll see.

“All that is gold does not glitter. Not all those who wander are lost. Deep roots are not reached by the frost. Renewed be the blade that was broken. The crownless again shall be king.”

(This post was edited by FaerieHammer on Mar 28 2011, 5:01am)


FaerieHammer
The Shire


Mar 28 2011, 4:59am

Post #129 of 149 (563 views)
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I know I'D be happy [In reply to] Can't Post

to see him in the films. There are plenty of people who agree. And if some don't expressly want him, those same people will not object to him being in the movie. What is it about him that you don't like, anyway?

“All that is gold does not glitter. Not all those who wander are lost. Deep roots are not reached by the frost. Renewed be the blade that was broken. The crownless again shall be king.”


Symbelmine
Rohan


Mar 28 2011, 6:05pm

Post #130 of 149 (538 views)
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I would be happy if Glorfindel was in. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't believe only very few people would be happy.I think Glorfindel is quite popular and favorite among lovers of Tolkien's Middle Earth and many people would love to see him in the movie.
As for Itaril it's exactly the opposite.Many people don't want her in the movie or hope she won't have a big part in the movie.


Symbelmine
Rohan


Mar 28 2011, 6:09pm

Post #131 of 149 (531 views)
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no please [In reply to] Can't Post

No any Glorfindel/Itaril love story.
If they really need to put some romance into this movie better create itaril/another made up elf pairing and leave canon characters alone.
That's my opinion.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Mar 28 2011, 7:13pm

Post #132 of 149 (543 views)
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It's a good bet that Glorfinel was a White Council member... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
"It's never stated explicitly that Glorfindel was a member of the Council, but his rank would seem to imply that he warranted membership. At the very least, he had knowledge of many of the Council's secrets, and was ready to aid it in its policies." Encyclopedia of Arda


In other words, it isn't explicitly stated that Glorfinel was on the Council, but it is heavily implied that he was one of the "others of the chief Eldar" who were unnamed members.

Would Círdan have attended the White Council of 2941, or would he have effectively retired to the Grey Havens by then?


The Grey Wanderer
Lorien


Mar 28 2011, 10:51pm

Post #133 of 149 (522 views)
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Cirdan has been hanging out at the Havens for 1000's of years... [In reply to] Can't Post

he was a very senior elf (original owner of the ring Gandalf ends up with if I recall correctly), so would be eligible. PJ could put him there if he wanted.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Mar 28 2011, 11:25pm

Post #134 of 149 (509 views)
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Círdan, Glorfindel, etc... [In reply to] Can't Post

Círdan did not attend the Council of Elrond in 3018; he was represented by an Elf named Galdor. I thought that perhaps Galdor had performed the same duty for Círdan to the White Council of 2941 and 2953.

Since Elrond does not seem to have attended the Council meeting of 2941, my guess is that Glorfindel and/or Erestor represented Rivendell. The exploration of Dol Guldur after it had been abandoned by Sauron could have prevented one or both of them from returning to Rivendell until after Gandalf and Bilbo did so the following year. I expect that Elrond did not dare to take his Elven Ring from Rivendell in the event that Sauron succeeded in launching an attack against it. The fact that, in Tolkien's continuity, Elrond was also sheltering Isildur's Heir (Aragorn as the young 'Estel') was, doubtless, another factor that kept him in Rivendell.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 28 2011, 11:28pm)


The Grey Wanderer
Lorien


Mar 29 2011, 12:47am

Post #135 of 149 (518 views)
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Galdor was at Elrond's council purely by chance... [In reply to] Can't Post

or, by implication, "divine guidance" as he was there on an errand for Cirdan. While Cirdan could have been represented at White Council meetings by Galdor, I would think that such meetings were important enough that the principles would make an effort to be there. Cirdan was one of the founding members, after all.

Curious why you believe that Elrond skipped the 2941 meeting. Other than the 2851 White Council meeting in Rivendell, I don't think we were ever told where they were held. My guess is that meeting was held in Lorien as then it would make sense for Gandalf to accompany them to the edge of the Forest & then head south on his own. Lorien is close to Dol Guldur, so the travel time to go there, meet, attack Dol Guldur, and then get back to the Lonely Mountain probably works out well. Elrond would most likely have gone by the Dimrill Stair route (the same route Gandalf picked for the Fellowship to travel) and could have left later, so he need not have left with the Dwarves.

PJ is, of course, free to put whoever he wants there. It seems that Radagast will be there (or, why else is he in the movies?), but he was not named as being at the first White Council meeting (list being Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Gandalf, Saruman, and "other lords of the Eldar" per "The Silmarillion" pg 300).


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 29 2011, 1:03am

Post #136 of 149 (471 views)
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The return stop by Bilbo & Gandalf at Rivendel in "The Hobbit" [In reply to] Can't Post

makes it pretty clear that Elrond was not at the action at Dol Guldur.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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The Grey Wanderer
Lorien


Mar 29 2011, 1:16am

Post #137 of 149 (504 views)
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I see your point (hadn't checked there), though... [In reply to] Can't Post

if we take that section as "Canon", then the "White Council" was actually a "great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic". Guess that counts out Glorfindel (Ainur Olorin is going to be so disappointed)...and the casualty rate must have been pretty high as only one white wizard appears to have survived (Saruman).


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 29 2011, 1:37am

Post #138 of 149 (507 views)
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Pete will decide who attends [In reply to] Can't Post

or if we are going to see the meeting at all. I keep thinking that the meeting would seem like a replay of the Council of Elrond so they might chose to just show the action at Dol Guldur. The meeting might have happened earlier. I know a lot of people would be unhappy with this if this is how they chose to play it. But it would streamline the script and lose the part with a bunch of entities sitting around talking. A bit of exposition would take care of the meeting.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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The Grey Wanderer
Lorien


Mar 29 2011, 1:55am

Post #139 of 149 (481 views)
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As you say, Pete's choice since so little is written// [In reply to] Can't Post

.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 29 2011, 1:58am

Post #140 of 149 (471 views)
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I don't know. [In reply to] Can't Post

If they show the action at Dol Guldur without having any epository build up leading up to it. . . a bridge too far. I think, if they do Dol Guldur, they HAVE to do The Council. There are lots of things that will hearken to things in LOTR. They are related works after all. I think The White Council, with its loftier and more selective attendees, its majestic and venerable members etc. and the dialogue given to them will distinguish it significantly. They may also have the main council meeting at Lorien instead of Rivendell, to further make the distinction. I don't think viewers will have a problem with the notion that councils were held when major decisions loom.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Mar 29 2011, 2:11am

Post #141 of 149 (488 views)
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It simply is not needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Anything that happened can be discussed by the gathering forces. This would not derail the action and fit much better in the time frame available in the Hobbit.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Mar 29 2011, 4:10pm

Post #142 of 149 (459 views)
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Elrond during 'The Hobbit' [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
While Cirdan could have been represented at White Council meetings by Galdor, I would think that such meetings were important enough that the principles would make an effort to be there. Cirdan was one of the founding members, after all.

Curious why you believe that Elrond skipped the 2941 meeting. Other than the 2851 White Council meeting in Rivendell, I don't think we were ever told where they were held. My guess is that meeting was held in Lorien as then it would make sense for Gandalf to accompany them to the edge of the Forest & then head south on his own. Lorien is close to Dol Guldur, so the travel time to go there, meet, attack Dol Guldur, and then get back to the Lonely Mountain probably works out well. Elrond would most likely have gone by the Dimrill Stair route (the same route Gandalf picked for the Fellowship to travel) and could have left later, so he need not have left with the Dwarves.

I went back and re-read the opening paragraphs of "The Council of Elrond" and I see what you mean about Galdor being present purely by chance. I had thought that I had remembered reading something about Círdan essentially stepping down from the White Council late in the Third Age due to his advanced age; however, my memory may be in error since I can not find any such reference. When Gandalf and Bilbo return to the Shire in the spring of 2942, they stop to rest at Rivendell; Gandalf brings news to Elrond of the attack on Dol Guldur. This makes it fairly clear that Elrond was not present for the assault and probably not at the meeting of the White Council either. When Gandalf speaks later of a gathering of the white wizards, we can interpret this in a couple of ways. Either Bilbo was simply too sleepy to accurately hear and recall what the Wizard had said; or, Gandalf was deliberately speaking in vague and general terms until he could speak with Elrond privately. It seems likely to me that Gandalf did not want to openly discuss Council business in Bilbo's presence. Tolkien wrote that the Council met late in the summer and Gandalf tells Thorin that he is already running late because of aiding the Dwarves. Gandalf then rides directly south from the eaves of Mirkwood. As you state, Lothlorien is one of the most likely places for the Council to have met, the other being Radagast's home of Rhosgobel. Others have spoken of Isengard as a possible meeting place; however, that seems too far south to me and I find it unlikely that Saruman would have wanted to host the event in his own stronghold. As it is, the meeting of the White Council of 2941 seems to be the only such meeting that was not held in Rivendell.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 29 2011, 9:04pm

Post #143 of 149 (447 views)
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I don't know, Kangi [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it would seem rather rushed and haphazard. If there is no build up, no precursor, no prior discussion, no debate, nothing. . . it will just seem to have come from outerspace to the audience, save those already familliar with the details. There is actually much more information about The Meeting of The White Council, and what Gandalf was doing there than there is about the events at Dol Guldur. For them to discuss things in Medeas Raes, as it were, whilst marching to their assault (or whatever means they will use to begin it) would be much more discombobulating than just leaving a space of ten minutes or so for the council scene.

And I certainly don't feel that The Council should be edited to avoid recollections of The Council of Elrond, any more than the company's misadventures with the goblins of The Misty mountains should be dropped because of The Fellowships problems with the goblins of Moria. The tales will have some parallels. That isn't neccessarily a bad thing, and can be a good thing. But the similarities will not be carbon copying, and the differences will distinguish exceptionally, I am sure.

Among other things, The White Council will probably give more relevant information than the filmed version of The Council of Elrond. The latter dealt so much with introductions, character backgrounds etc. This one will be more plot focused, I imagine. The known members will say their part, and any unknown members will function in the same way that all the unnamed secondary cast of LOTR did. No real backstory, just present as a given, and contributing their minor part to the greater dialogue.

Certainly it will be a clearly smaller and more elite council than Elrond's. Only Elves and Wizards in attendance, and less than half the number. I counted the membership of Elrond's council in the film. There are at least 19 to 20 people present, possibly more. The White Council, with all explicitly named (Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel, Cirdan, Saruman), strongly implied with supp. evidence (Glorfindel), and even just highly probable (Radagast [already cast, as we know], Celeborn and Erestor) members, is not even half that number, totaling only nine. Ha. 9. Nine would be a very fitting number for the membership of The White Council, now that I think on it. Anyway, yielding back the floor.

In Reply To
Anything that happened can be discussed by the gathering forces. This would not derail the action and fit much better in the time frame available in the Hobbit.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Mar 30 2011, 9:17pm

Post #144 of 149 (439 views)
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The Council and its forces [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Certainly it will be a clearly smaller and more elite council than Elrond's. Only Elves and Wizards in attendance, and less than half the number. I counted the membership of Elrond's council in the film. There are at least 19 to 20 people present, possibly more. The White Council, with all explicitly named (Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel, Cirdan, Saruman), strongly implied with supp. evidence (Glorfindel), and even just highly probable (Radagast [already cast, as we know], Celeborn and Erestor) members, is not even half that number, totaling only nine. Ha. 9. Nine would be a very fitting number for the membership of The White Council, now that I think on it. Anyway, yielding back the floor.

In all likelyhood, not all members of the White Council will be present. Elrond, at least, will probably remain in Rivendell, or will return there prior to the attack on Dol Guldur (based on what we are told in The Hobbit). I imagine that Rivendell will be represented, more likely by Glorfindel than by Erestor (if it is a choice between the two). That brings attendance down to six or seven members. In addition, I would not be surprised to see a representative from Thranduil, the Wood-elf King (perhaps Legolas).

Following the conclusion of the Council's debate, I do expect additional forces to be brought in for the assault. At the very least, I expect to see Elven soldiers from Lothlorien and a unit of Dúnedain Rangers. There could also be a group of Rivendell Elves and a unit of Wood-elves sent by Thranduil, who certainly has a stake in removing the Necromancer (who he may not yet be aware of as Sauron) from Mirkwood Forest.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 30 2011, 9:20pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 30 2011, 9:47pm

Post #145 of 149 (431 views)
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I agree about the assault. I was only pointing to Council Membership, [In reply to] Can't Post

as they may be shown in an actual council session, with Gandalf making his push for assault (very impressive Shakespearean persuasive argument, I do not doubt) etc., as opposed to the actual assault itself, at which Elrond may indeed not be present. And I will also not be surprised to find more Elves, either from Mirkwood or Lorien, aiding in the assault. No way of knowint though.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


The Grey Wanderer
Lorien


Mar 30 2011, 11:51pm

Post #146 of 149 (432 views)
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Could be there will be no soldiers... [In reply to] Can't Post

the Hobbit could be interpreted to mean that the "white wizards" drove the Necromancer out on their own ... not that I really expect Pete and crew to play it that way!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Mar 31 2011, 12:33am

Post #147 of 149 (447 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

On both your comments.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Gwytha
Rohan


Mar 31 2011, 2:33am

Post #148 of 149 (401 views)
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If that's how it goes [In reply to] Can't Post

It will be interesting to see how they do a battle with conventional(by Middle Earth standards)military forces and a bunch of wizards versus Sauron and his allies(which I presume will be of goblin and orc kind). I had actually imagined it was going to be a purely magical battle, like Saruman versus Gandalf at Orthanc only super sized..

We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Mar 31 2011, 8:27pm

Post #149 of 149 (519 views)
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Possibly... [In reply to] Can't Post

I reallly do expect that the White Council would have had some support of arms for the assault on Dol Guldur; however, Peter Jackson is free to stage the event in whatever way he imagines it to have been, or however he thinks works best.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 31 2011, 8:28pm)

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